Author Topic: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.  (Read 596 times)

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Offline trepidpoda

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Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« on: September 23, 2010, 09:35:41 PM »
What are your stances and arguments for, or against?

I am totally for abolishing the prohibition of same clan marriages.  Today's modern Hmong needs to revisit this old traditional/cultural practice and remodify or abolish it.  Here are my reasons:

1) Because there is no need for the practice.  To understand this, we first must go to the root of why such a prohibition was set in place in the begining.  We all know that near the genesis, Hmong in the old days of food gathering, hunting, and barbarism were quite small in tribes in disperse regions.  These small tribes pose a problem, and that problem arose by observation through the astute elderly that child physical deformation were occuring at an alarming rate within close family marriages.  Tracible conclusion can easily be established as to the cause.  And to solve this cause of deformation, marriages within the immediate family were banned, and hence the problem was solved.   Similar problems still arose within close family lingages; like second and third cousins, etc, but at a smaller rate, hence, anybody marrying within the same clan (last name) was also abolished because they were considered too close and hence incest.  Now, one will wonder, how about the aunts, how come it is okay for the uncles sons to marry the aunt's daugther?  The answer lies in that although the elders were correct as to the cause of the deformation, they didn't have a clue in how genetics really worked.  And with the male dominance ideology in Hmong tradition, it was biasly concluded that the man is the important factor in carrying on the genes, and the women plays little, or no role, which we know today is untrue.  However, this lead to the established practice that it is justifiable to marry your aunt's childern, and not siblings from uncles to uncles retaining the last name.  We can also see parrallel problems and similar practices in other European countries where deformation and blood hemophilias were most prevalent.

Since the Hmong today are so much more numerous and the genetic pool is more diverse, the deformation issue is not as apparant.  Marrying within the same last name who is distant appart will be safe from the problem of deformed childern.  However, marrying within the family should still be discourage.  We could abolish prohibition of Last name marriages, and still keep prohibition of marriages within the close family.  In short, the prohibition was because of deformed childern, and not really rooted in the incest of immediate next of kin brothers and sisters.

2) Secondly, the term incest isn't correctly classified under terminology where the definition of it is considered engagment within the immediate family.  It is a term used to scare Hmong into believing they have commited a sin against a brother or sister.   A more appropriate usage of the term incest should be within the close family.  Those outside even with the last name doesn't appropriately apply.  But, one will argue, "those are still your same clan (last name/brothers and sisters) of the same lineage."  Then it is clear we will not escape the fact that aren't the entire human specie the same lineage?  If this premise continues, then may nobody marry no one.

I think with this current mentality, we can all abolish this old age practice which nolonger serves a viable use for Hmong compared to historic events.

What are your arguments?..........


« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 10:39:12 AM by trepidpoda »

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Offline Funny Face

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2010, 10:12:57 AM »
I don't think you understand...i t's not a scare tactic. It's a sense of kinship, an extended family so that in a town full of strangers you can find someone with the same last name and know that you are both the descendants of the same person, therefor you are family. That is why it's viewed as taboo or incest in our culture to marry someone with the same last name.  When my father and his siblings lost their parents, not only did their real uncles step in to help, their entire clan (including non-blood related people) took them in...because that's family.

In any case, I only follow it because I respect my parents and know this would devastate them. However, I've already decided I will explain this concept to my children but ultimately the decision will be theirs...that and they can NEVER actually marry their blood related relatives due to the first reason you gave.


« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 10:17:15 AM by Funny Face »

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Offline trepidpoda

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2010, 10:45:25 AM »
I don't think you understand...i t's not a scare tactic. It's a sense of kinship, an extended family so that in a town full of strangers you can find someone with the same last name and know that you are both the descendants of the same person, therefor you are family. That is why it's viewed as taboo or incest in our culture to marry someone with the same last name.  When my father and his siblings lost their parents, not only did their real uncles step in to help, their entire clan (including non-blood related people) took them in...because that's family.

In any case, I only follow it because I respect my parents and know this would devastate them. However, I've already decided I will explain this concept to my children but ultimately the decision will be theirs...that and they can NEVER actually marry their blood related relatives due to the first reason you gave.
Rarely anybody in th world follows what we are doing, which today makes no sense.  You talk to other ethnics, and they would say....you guys are crazy.  Providing it is true that Hmong put a prohibition in same last name marriages due to the problems of deformed childern, and not really on the ideal of incest, because incest is a term for within the immediate family, like your real brother or sister.  Secondly, if we were to maintain it is incest.....the n marrying your aunt's childern ( which is allowed) is the same as marrying your uncles (prohibited) childern?  Why do we prohibit one and not the other base on the topic of incest?  And lastly, this is not about....lets break the tradition and culture, rather it is about changing it legally in a way that most would accept.



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Offline 8v10un30sun

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2010, 10:59:09 AM »
I'm against it.  It's tradition.  You don't mess with traditions.



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Offline Funny Face

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2010, 11:07:16 AM »
Rarely anybody in th world follows what we are doing, which today makes no sense.  You talk to other ethnics, and they would say....you guys are crazy.  Providing it is true that Hmong put a prohibition in same last name marriages due to the problems of deformed childern, and not really on the ideal of incest, because incest is a term for within the immediate family, like your real brother or sister.  Secondly, if we were to maintain it is incest.....the n marrying your aunt's childern ( which is allowed) is the same as marrying your uncles (prohibited) childern?  Why do we prohibit one and not the other base on the topic of incest?  And lastly, this is not about....lets break the tradition and culture, rather it is about changing it legally in a way that most would accept.

I have spoken to other ethnics and I have never had anyone tell me it's crazy, but instead understand why we needed it then. The need for it today is not as great because we've adapted a different support system. I for one, however, still kind of like it when I meet someone of the same last name and they call me sister and I am automatically treated with that respect. No longer am I a stranger and no longer am I a piece of meat for guys to pick up...what can I say? There are still some parts of me that like our traditions. BUT that's not to say everyone has to follow. I think to each their own. I have a cousin who's been dating someone with the same last name for the past five years. Both their families objected at first but have now come to accept it and both are very happy.



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Offline 8v10un30sun

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2010, 11:11:48 AM »
Johnsons can marry Johnsons.

Ngo can marry Ngo.

Gonzales can marry Gonzales.

All the above can do it as long as they are not cousin.  Now Hmong people Vang marries Yang and they are first cousin.  ICK.  We are on the verge of being like the Egyptians where the royal family married each other.  Some type of control needs to happen but let's not kill the traditions, and let now allow 1st and 2nd cousin to marry.  That seems practical.



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Offline slude

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2010, 03:11:32 PM »
trepidpoda, is not 'verk' buddy. i agree with funny about the kinship.

your reasons:
1) Because there is no need for the practice. .
2) Secondly, the term incest..

your reasons have nothing to do with abolishing.
what are the benefits? will we be better hmong without the system? will we be better engineers, doctors, lawyers tomorrow than we were yesterday?



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Offline trepidpoda

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2010, 03:41:34 PM »
trepidpoda, is not 'verk' buddy. i agree with funny about the kinship.

your reasons:
1) Because there is no need for the practice. .
2) Secondly, the term incest..

your reasons have nothing to do with abolishing.
what are the benefits? will we be better hmong without the system? will we be better engineers, doctors, lawyers tomorrow than we were yesterday?
The argument here really depends on one's opinion.  But, if you were to ask me to justify my reasons as I indicated, then I do think that my reasons are valid reasons that addressed the cause, and is able to put it to rest.  I provided arguments for the innecesity of such practices today.  As for making us better enginers, doctors, etc....is irrelevant, because that is solely dependant on the individual if they would want to persue those educational endeavor.  However, what will make us better is that it will eliminate the tensions of relationships where torn lovers have committed suicide, and/or suffer mentally from these prohibitions because they were forbidden to marry one another within their last names who are so distant apart to where a close relationship is not established.  These stories are numerous, and once this happens, the couple are disowned by their clan, and demoted; nobody visits, treat them with equality and respect.   What we can see improve with the abolishing of the tradition is that more opportunities arise where there was none before.  For example, now you can date and marry a person who is of the same clan where same last names will nolonger divide you.  Finding real love can be one in a million, and if that one in a million is within your clan, then you are out of luck.  Hmong people finds true love within their clans all the time, but are sadly dissapointed to the brinks of taking their own lives.  Prohibition should not limit our opportunity, and abolishment will broaden it.  Finding real love will strenghten the bond between a man and woman, and give way to a healthier family.  Also, disputes between marriages can be handled fairly because there aren't two clans at a decision making that can be inconsolable in comparison to one clan that both were accustomed to, follow, and will more likely listen and adhere to.  These benefits outweigh the problems and noncontributor y factors it now causes today.


« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 03:54:07 PM by trepidpoda »

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Offline tmz3

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2010, 04:44:18 PM »
abolishing this means abolishing the entire clan system.

everything about hmong culture revolves around your clan. sub-clan to be exact.

if you abolish the clan system -- you need to find a replacement for hmoob tej kev cai dab qhuas, from funerals to ua nyuj dab to kev laig dab/teev xwm kab ...

wait! i have an idea!! :idea1: why dont we all just git baptized!!! .. fewer cows to kill .. less funeral days to do ... we'll just drink pepsi at weddings .... ;D


« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 05:13:31 PM by tmz3 »

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Offline Funny Face

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2010, 05:09:28 PM »
lol. can't it just be, people should be free to love whomever they want as long as it's consensual and within reason? Definitely no to incest because...well there's the whole mutated health issue but also who's side would their family take if there is a divorce (although in Hmong culture, they'd probably go for the guys side-boo!). Still, that would definitely make for a smaller wedding party...KIDDIN G KIDDING!!!  ;D



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Offline Someone

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2010, 05:56:52 PM »
abolishing this means abolishing the entire clan system.

everything about hmong culture revolves around your clan. sub-clan to be exact.

if you abolish the clan system -- you need to find a replacement for hmoob tej kev cai dab qhuas, from funerals to ua nyuj dab to kev laig dab/teev xwm kab ...

wait! i have an idea!! :idea1: why dont we all just git baptized!!! .. fewer cows to kill .. less funeral days to do ... we'll just drink pepsi at weddings .... ;D



 funerals are still 3 days because they need to open it up due to donations!



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Offline 8v10un30sun

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2010, 09:34:32 PM »
Let me tell Hmong-Laos/Thai something.  You peeps aint PURE on the practice anyways.  It's a bunch of stuf you picked up in Laos.  Go check out Hmong-China where they practice the PURE stuff.  So let's not make accusation on Hmong-Mekas not practicing some of the stuff and not some.  When you can demonstrate the PURENESS of certain Hmong-China tribes that still practice the pure stuff, then props to you.



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Offline HmongKnight

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2010, 03:16:07 PM »
Prohibite same clan marriage and they all will go marry other race. This is a good way to reduce the Hmong population.



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Offline Reporter

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2010, 05:51:33 PM »
For fear of being exiled, I'll have to respect traditions for now.



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Offline trippleX

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Re: Abolishing the prohibition of same clan (last name) marriages.
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2010, 01:14:30 AM »
I vote to abolish same last name marriages especially in our culture. Due to the respect of our tradition and forefathers, regardless what other ethnicities do, it is tradition we have long followed and should continue to follow. Should other ethnics jump off a ship to their death, guess some will also follow. Are we not Hmong, yet have converted to wanting to be something we are not. No wonder we really have no place in this world, we always want to become something we are not. Just too sad to really think about it.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 01:16:12 AM by trippleX »

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