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Author Topic: Austen's Emma Discussions  (Read 30432 times)

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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2010, 02:04:49 PM »
Emma Woodhouse is about 21 years old, lives with a father and a governess but no longer has a mother.  Because of her wealthy situation and her upbringing where the adults did not discipline her much, she's been almost a brat.
I wouldn’t call her a “brat”, but yes, due to the fact that she has no mother to admonish or reprimand her when she has done something wrong, she has gotten used to getting things her way.  She is described as “clever”, so clearly, she is able to think for herself and is able to clearly articulate herself to get what she wants (and this is confirmed in third paragraph.)  Also, in the book, the author pointed out that the governess, Miss Taylor, was “less a governess than a friend”, which lead to them more like “sisters”.  In addition, this sentence clearly explains it all: in reference to the governess: “the mildness of her temper had hardly allowed her to impose any restraint”.  This is a direct way of saying that the governess was gentle and mild and did not dole out any punishments or set any “rules” to be followed as in a teacher/student relationship normally would.  This gave Emma every opportunity to do whatever she pleased, and, although Emma had high regard for her governess’s judgments, she was clearly the “mastermind” of all their activities thus far.

having too much her own way and thinking a little too highly of herself. So says the author.  The author sees this as a danger, although it's not clear what that really means. At least not at this point.
I’m going to say that the author really was quite clear.  It’s called foreshadow, and you know what it means so I won't go into it.  Emma is wealthy and secured in her lot in life, as you’ve said, so with this security and stability, the author said that she possesses “the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little well of herself” --- THIS is the foreshadowing of the many conflicts to come because Emma is too stubborn (because she always gets what she wants) and too self-assured to the point of snobbery (as someone said) and too vain in her self-assuranced all due to her wealthy station in life.

--In Chapter 1, we see some descriptions of Emma's backgrounds, her father's situation, Mrs. Weston's marriage and a few others. Mrs. Weston's wedding took place in this chapter.  Mr. Knightley appears near the end of the chapter.   Mr. Knightley and Emma seem acquainted and had small friendly argument with each other. A friendly argument? How can an argument be friendly? You may ask. Well, that's just my say. You say it how you want it. ;D
Ok, you said we can say it however we want and I don’t have a term or a phrase, call it a sparring of wits, but I would have to say that Emma and Mr. Knightly, as described in the book, are very familiar with each other and are at ease with each other, so they can joke about and point out each other flaws to one another without being offended.  Their rapport is easily seen and felt to be free of any evil or mean intentions.   So, when I read this book for the first time, I already knew that Mr. Knightly was going to be voice of reason throughout the book.  And he demonstrated it when he asked Emma if she really was “successful” because she actually planned and strategized to get Miss Taylor and Mr. Weston together or was it merely a “lucky guess”.  And I’m sure we can all relate to this notion.  Sometimes, when something happens, we like to think that we already saw it coming, when, of course, we never went out of way to do anything to make it happen.  Know what I mean?  LOL

The chapter seems very concerned about the detachment Emma and her father feels in Mrs. Weston's moving out of their house.  Not sure what meaning that has for the novel. But the author makes a big issue out of this.
I think the author made a “big issue” of this because she wanted to set up the upcoming storyline.  We were told that Miss Taylor had been with them for quite a long time and she was practically a part of the family.  She was the buffer between father and daughter, plus, she was able to keep everyone lightly entertained because she wasn’t really of blood relation.  Does that make sense?  So she was able to balance life with the father by being the proper governess and adding some sense of authority (even though we were clearly told that she’s too mild-temper to be of any consesquence) and mother-figure to his daughter; yet at the same time, she was able to be a confidant, a friend, a constant companion that could match Emma in wit.  And to add to latter point, Emma profoundly misses Miss Taylor because of the fact that her father was not able to articulate and match her wit to wit.  She was “clever” so she needed and depended on Miss Taylor’s equally “clever” personality to keep the days and nights going.  And to me, the author made a “big issue” over this because this is actually where all the conflicts begins to take shape.  Here, in Chapter 1, we are getting a sense of what is to come in later chapters.  Emma is clearly and plainly BORED OUTTA HER MIND and because she thinks “too highly of herself”, she thinks she was the cause of the marriage between  Miss Taylor and Mr. Weston, so being detached and voided of anything to keep them occupied, they – er, I mean, Emma, now has all the time in the world to take on this skill that she thinks she has – matchmaking! And that is where all the upcoming plots begins….



« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 02:08:03 PM by go-go »

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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2010, 02:36:28 PM »
I do not believe that Emma is utlizing her matchmaking skills on the pretense of hoping someone would match her with someone. I think she's bored and have nothing better to do as a result meddle into other peoples' business. Luck was on her side when she superficially played matchmaker with Miss Taylor and Mr Weston and now base on the successful union she believed that she is the world's greatest matchmaker, but really she lacks foresight and only sees what she want to see
I agreed with this too. I don't think she has any "skill" because when Mr. Knightly asked her if she "was endeavoring for the last four years to bring about the marriage", she had no answer....but when he ended with the question of her having made a "lucky guess" she replied quite hastily "And have you never known the pleasure and triumph of a lucky guess?-- I pity you!"   :2funny: :2funny:

Which brings me to this point made by Reporter about her not having any friends in all her 21 years of life.  In those days, children from wealthy families were brought up by governesses, and had little do with outside people, much less their parents, until they are ready to "come out"  as in become debutantes (if you're a daughter).  So, I'm sure she knew of the other wealthy families and their daughters/sons, but I don't think any of them had any chances of forming a lasting friendship,  like the one that Emma and Miss Taylor has.

Anyways, good book, but overall, but it's not one of my favorites at all.  Like BoO said, it's basically a bunch of wealthy, idle people with nothing to do but meddle in each other's affair.  Emma, to me, isn't a very redeeming or endearing protangonist at all.  Sometime, she is more of the antagonist, but I think the author wanted to portrayed as such to confirm what the author had said at the beginning, that Emma had "a disposition to think a little too well of herself".


« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 02:41:45 PM by go-go »

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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2010, 03:15:20 PM »
Hm...ok. good reasonings. Thanks. And, so, what did governesses really do in those times? Austen just says Ms. Taylor has stopped being a governess. But Austen has never said what those chores or duties were. Do you know what they may be?

I don't understand that part about Ms. Taylor being able to entertain the family just because she was not blood relation. Say more please.  Jane Austen does not tell us many things. Perhaps we need the historical backgrounds of the period to understand more.  But didn't Mr. Woodhouse employ a governess for the two daughters just because Mrs. Woodouse--their mother--had died? Or did he already employ Ms. Taylor while Mrs. Woodhouse was still alive? I may be missing some facts here. But I'm thinking that Ms. Taylor was hired because Mr. Woodhouse needed someone to discipline the two daughters in his wife's place. Somehow he chose not to remarry.

I wouldn’t call her a “brat”, but yes, due to the fact that she has no mother to admonish or reprimand her when she has done something wrong, she has gotten used to getting things her way.  She is described as “clever”, so clearly, she is able to think for herself and is able to clearly articulate herself to get what she wants (and this is confirmed in third paragraph.)  Also, in the book, the author pointed out that the governess, Miss Taylor, was “less a governess than a friend”, which lead to them more like “sisters”.  In addition, this sentence clearly explains it all: in reference to the governess: “the mildness of her temper had hardly allowed her to impose any restraint”.  This is a direct way of saying that the governess was gentle and mild and did not dole out any punishments or set any “rules” to be followed as in a teacher/student relationship normally would.  This gave Emma every opportunity to do whatever she pleased, and, although Emma had high regard for her governess’s judgments, she was clearly the “mastermind” of all their activities thus far.
I’m going to say that the author really was quite clear.  It’s called foreshadow, and you know what it means so I won't go into it.  Emma is wealthy and secured in her lot in life, as you’ve said, so with this security and stability, the author said that she possesses “the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little well of herself” --- THIS is the foreshadowing of the many conflicts to come because Emma is too stubborn (because she always gets what she wants) and too self-assured to the point of snobbery (as someone said) and too vain in her self-assuranced all due to her wealthy station in life.
Ok, you said we can say it however we want and I don’t have a term or a phrase, call it a sparring of wits, but I would have to say that Emma and Mr. Knightly, as described in the book, are very familiar with each other and are at ease with each other, so they can joke about and point out each other flaws to one another without being offended.  Their rapport is easily seen and felt to be free of any evil or mean intentions.   So, when I read this book for the first time, I already knew that Mr. Knightly was going to be voice of reason throughout the book.  And he demonstrated it when he asked Emma if she really was “successful” because she actually planned and strategized to get Miss Taylor and Mr. Weston together or was it merely a “lucky guess”.  And I’m sure we can all relate to this notion.  Sometimes, when something happens, we like to think that we already saw it coming, when, of course, we never went out of way to do anything to make it happen.  Know what I mean?  LOL
I think the author made a “big issue” of this because she wanted to set up the upcoming storyline.  We were told that Miss Taylor had been with them for quite a long time and she was practically a part of the family.  She was the buffer between father and daughter, plus, she was able to keep everyone lightly entertained because she wasn’t really of blood relation.  Does that make sense? So she was able to balance life with the father by being the proper governess and adding some sense of authority (even though we were clearly told that she’s too mild-temper to be of any consesquence) and mother-figure to his daughter; yet at the same time, she was able to be a confidant, a friend, a constant companion that could match Emma in wit.  And to add to latter point, Emma profoundly misses Miss Taylor because of the fact that her father was not able to articulate and match her wit to wit.  She was “clever” so she needed and depended on Miss Taylor’s equally “clever” personality to keep the days and nights going.  And to me, the author made a “big issue” over this because this is actually where all the conflicts begins to take shape.  Here, in Chapter 1, we are getting a sense of what is to come in later chapters.  Emma is clearly and plainly BORED OUTTA HER MIND and because she thinks “too highly of herself”, she thinks she was the cause of the marriage between  Miss Taylor and Mr. Weston, so being detached and voided of anything to keep them occupied, they – er, I mean, Emma, now has all the time in the world to take on this skill that she thinks she has – matchmaking! And that is where all the upcoming plots begins….




« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 03:21:33 PM by Reporter »

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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2010, 03:22:20 PM »
Good to have a bit of historical backgrounds. Thanks.

I agreed with this too. I don't think she has any "skill" because when Mr. Knightly asked her if she "was endeavoring for the last four years to bring about the marriage", she had no answer....but when he ended with the question of her having made a "lucky guess" she replied quite hastily "And have you never known the pleasure and triumph of a lucky guess?-- I pity you!"   :2funny: :2funny:

Which brings me to this point made by Reporter about her not having any friends in all her 21 years of life.  In those days, children from wealthy families were brought up by governesses, and had little do with outside people, much less their parents, until they are ready to "come out"  as in become debutantes (if you're a daughter).  So, I'm sure she knew of the other wealthy families and their daughters/sons, but I don't think any of them had any chances of forming a lasting friendship,  like the one that Emma and Miss Taylor has.

Anyways, good book, but overall, but it's not one of my favorites at all.  Like BoO said, it's basically a bunch of wealthy, idle people with nothing to do but meddle in each other's affair.  Emma, to me, isn't a very redeeming or endearing protangonist at all.  Sometime, she is more of the antagonist, but I think the author wanted to portrayed as such to confirm what the author had said at the beginning, that Emma had "a disposition to think a little too well of herself".



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2010, 03:24:09 PM »
So, go-go, why do you think Mr. Knightley was not invited to Ms. Taylor's wedding? Many close friends and relatives had been invited. Mr. Knightley is a close friend of the family, and also the older brother of Isabella's husband. He's Emma's brother-in-law's brother. He's only one mile away from Hartfield. So, why wasn't he invited? I'm just curious. There's no right or wrong answer.



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2010, 03:24:56 PM »
go-go Welcome!!!!

Right. Welcome to our club! Let's do chapter 2 next week!



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2010, 03:42:15 PM »
go-go Welcome!!!!
Thanks. :)  I wasn't really a big fan of Austen's work, until my sisters (who are huge fans of hers) introduced me to her books.  I was always more of a Bronte fan than an Austen fan.  So if any of you want to discuss Jane Eyre or Wuthering Heights, I'm all for it.  ;D And Anne Boleyn too. I'm a HUGE fan of her too!!! 



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2010, 03:45:23 PM »
So, go-go, why do you think Mr. Knightley was not invited to Ms. Taylor's wedding? Many close friends and relatives had been invited. Mr. Knightley is a close friend of the family, and also the older brother of Isabella's husband. He's Emma's brother-in-law's brother. He's only one mile away from Hartfield. So, why wasn't he invited? I'm just curious. There's no right or wrong answer.
Ohh good discussion! Let's talk about this, but I'm going to have to get back to you on this one. It will take a little more time than what I have right now. Plus, when I type too much, my screen doesn't stay still, it toggles back and forth, so I have to actually type it out on MS word and then copy it here. 



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2010, 04:08:47 PM »
In those days, if you come from a wealthy or aristocratic family, you don't actually do any physical labor of caring for your child except to actually deliver the baby itself.  When the child is born, you employ a wet nurse to nurse the baby.  When the wealthy parents determines that their child is at an age to learn, they will employ tutors. or governeses.  Tutors don't normally live in the household, that is, they come to teach and then they leave to their own home.  A governess is usually a female, and once employed by the family, lives within the household.  She isn't considered a "servant", because she's not from the "peasant" class, but just a lower class without money or family.  So, she's not a servant but she isn't really part of the wealthy family either.  However, depending on the family's attitude towards servants and lower class people, the governess can either be treated like a family member, like in this book, and become loved and cherish - or become someone who is kept aside and excluded from being part of the family, especially in the aristocratic class .  

In that context of the Woodhouse being modestly wealthy yet accepting of Miss Taylor's lower class,  that is what I meant when I said that Miss Taylor isn't of blood relation, but because the family is accepting of her position, they don't exclude her from family matters, so is she essentially a part of the family.  So, when I said "entertain", it was a liberal use of the word, which is to say, that she was able to come and go freely, express her thoughts and concerns freely, and act like any other member of the family.  

Also in those days, wealthy people don’t really have to do anything like work or go to college.  If you don’t have a ball to attend on a weekend, then you have to actually plan an activities and invite other men and women from wealthy families to attend. So, it’s a way of entertainment because they really don’t have anything else to do.   So, again, when I said that Miss Taylor was able to entertain them, I didn’t mean like she was putting a play or singing and dancing, she was there to liven up the family, as a playmate so to speak to Mr. Woodhouse and Emma.  Plus, because she’s not of blood relation, they feel more comfortable to go to her, than to each other.  I’m sure you know what I’m talking about here.  When it’s just your own family sitting at home on a cold winter’s night, it’s quite boring.  But when you have someone else there, it takes the drag out of things and liven things up.  The friend is able to bring a connection to the family and make everyone more talkative, more lively, and giggly.  Doesn’t that happen to you guys from time to time??  Anyway, that is what I meant by that comment.



Hm...ok. good reasonings. Thanks. And, so, what did governesses really do in those times? Austen just says Ms. Taylor has stopped being a governess. But Austen has never said what those chores or duties were. Do you know what they may be?

I don't understand that part about Ms. Taylor being able to entertain the family just because she was not blood relation. Say more please.  Jane Austen does not tell us many things. Perhaps we need the historical backgrounds of the period to understand more.  But didn't Mr. Woodhouse employ a governess for the two daughters just because Mrs. Woodouse--their mother--had died? Or did he already employ Ms. Taylor while Mrs. Woodhouse was still alive? I may be missing some facts here. But I'm thinking that Ms. Taylor was hired because Mr. Woodhouse needed someone to discipline the two daughters in his wife's place. Somehow he chose not to remarry.



« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:13:52 PM by go-go »

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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2010, 04:12:51 PM »
Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights are on my 'must read' list. We can consider those two options for our next book for discussion once Emma is completed.
Oh My. You've GOT to read both books.  I would suggest Wuthering Heights first because it's more gloomy, so when you're done reading Jane Eyre, your spirit will pick up again. LOL!!!   ;D  Also, there's a lot of movie versions out for these two books.......yo u gotta see them all too, but first, read the books!!



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2010, 04:15:07 PM »
Hmm. I noticed I used alot of the word "so".   :P

*note to self* must get rid of that habit.



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2010, 04:45:14 PM »
So, go-go, why do you think Mr. Knightley was not invited to Ms. Taylor's wedding? Many close friends and relatives had been invited. Mr. Knightley is a close friend of the family, and also the older brother of Isabella's husband. He's Emma's brother-in-law's brother. He's only one mile away from Hartfield. So, why wasn't he invited? I'm just curious. There's no right or wrong answer.
Ok, I lied. I have time now. LOL! I'm not sure what you're looking for here, but my only guess is that Mr. Knightly feel indifferent about Miss Taylor, so when Miss Taylor got married, he didn't care to attend.  The book doesn't go into the reasons why, only to say that he came back from visiting his brother in London.  I think it was mentioned that London is a mere 16 miles from Highbury, and this could also play into one of the reason(s) why Mr. Knightly didn't attend the wedding.   Based on what I've read in other books, when a wealthy person is in London to visit relatives, the relatives usually plan activities to entertain the visitor(s).  They have rounds of balls to attend, many young men and women to meet and to be introduced, plus, the journey to and from is quite long.   There were no cars, or buses, or airplanes.  They rode on horseback or in carriages, if they were able to afford it.   So, I think, with all these in combination - that is, with Mr. Knightly's indifference to the governess and the London trip, he simply didn't care to attend because she was of no importance to him.  


« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:14:52 PM by go-go »

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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2010, 05:06:47 PM »
Hm...ok. good reasonings. Thanks. And, so, what did governesses really do in those times? Austen just says Ms. Taylor has stopped being a governess. But Austen has never said what those chores or duties were. Do you know what they may be?
Ok, I didn't really answer your questions. Sorry. I tend to stray like that!  ;D  A governess is simply a live-in teacher.  They are also to give moral guidance and watch over them when they become of age to start meeting young men.   ;D  

What Austen meant by the saying that Miss Taylor has stopped being a governess is that the relationship of teacher and student has somehow, over the years been replace by the relationship "sisters" and "friendship".  Yes, she was techically still the governess and technically still employed as such, but, because she and Emma have gotten so close and shared so many secrets over the years, Emma simply didn''t see her as a "governess" anymore.  She is simply seen as Miss Taylor.  And again, it's largely due to the fact Miss Taylor doesn't set any rules or any disciplines and consequences to Emma when Emma breaks those rules.  Miss Taylor is so fond of Emma, and they have become so close that the formal title of "governess" was simply overlooked.  Miss Taylor was employed to be governess for both girls, but after the older sister got married, Miss Taylor and Emma become good friends.  Also, Mr. Woodhouse is described as somehow being too whimsical, not really being the "man of the house" as we would say.  So I'm sure Emma was able to gently persuade her father to accept Miss Taylor as more a family, than as a servant, and overlook her true station in life.  

Anyway, you’ve read Pride and Prejudice, haven’t you?  When Elizabeth met Lady Catherine de Bourgh, and Lady Catherine de Bourgh asked her if they have governess and Elizabeth said no, Lady Catherine de Bourgh was shocked with indignation.  It’s practically a scandal in those days to NOT have a governess because by NOT having one implied so many things (like the family is not wealthy enough to afford one, the mother is doing manual labor, the children will be ‘savages’ because they have not been taught any manners, social skills, or any languages, etc etc).


« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:15:31 PM by go-go »

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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2010, 05:28:06 PM »
Thanks. :)  I wasn't really a big fan of Austen's work, until my sisters (who are huge fans of hers) introduced me to her books.  I was always more of a Bronte fan than an Austen fan.  So if any of you want to discuss Jane Eyre or Wuthering Heights, I'm all for it.  ;D And Anne Boleyn too. I'm a HUGE fan of her too!!! 

We'll get to Charlotte's books eventually. Maybe we can do one Austen book and then the other Bronte's and back and forth? For now, we have to get through Emma first.



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Re: Austen's Emma Discussions
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2010, 05:31:22 PM »
Ok, I lied. I have time now. LOL! I'm not sure what you're looking for here, but my only guess is that Mr. Knightly feel indifferent about Miss Taylor, so when Miss Taylor got married, he didn't care to attend.  The book doesn't go into the reasons why, only to say that he came back from visiting his brother in London.  I think it was mentioned that London is a mere 16 miles from Highbury, and this could also play into one of the reason(s) why Mr. Knightly didn't attend the wedding.   Based on what I've read in other books, when a wealthy person is in London to visit relatives, the relatives usually plan activities to entertain the visitor(s).  They have rounds of balls to attend, many young men and women to meet and to be introduced, plus, the journey to and from is quite long.   There were no cars, or buses, or airplanes.  They rode on horseback or in carriages, if they were able to afford it.   So, I think, with all these in combination - that is, with Mr. Knightly's indifference to the governess and the London trip, he simply didn't care to attend because she was of no importance to him.  

If he was invited and had chosen not to attend, that's one. But if he wasn't ever invited, that's another. We aren't told how the guests were invited. And Austen goes very little into the wedding. She just says "wedding over," the two were left to dinner by themselves and started a conversation about their detachments.

Was Mr. Knightley ever invited? I'm not sure.


« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 05:33:21 PM by Reporter »

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