18 xeem to Thailand over gvp funeral activities?

[countthe$$$$]

hey all, i was visiting the fresno bee website again and reading the comments to some of the articles.  i came accross some people saying:

that members of the 18 xeeb had tickets booked for thailand/laos already?  

that some participants in their NY events have not been paid?

questions about lee ceeb and his family history, mainly his father's actions back in laos and the massacare of a village?

setting up bank accounts and asking the public to "donate" funds to help secure a "better future"?  

charging $10 for a candle and $10 for a flower at a vigil held for GVP?

paying $10,000 each to be a clan representative?

since i haven't seen any thread about this here, i wanted to see if anyone can shed any light on these "allegations"?  if any of these are accurate, what does it say about 18 xeeb and their credibility?  are they really trying to secure a "better future" for the hmong or for themselves?  

link to article: http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/01/20/2240986/hmong-divided-on-vang-funeral.html#disqus_thread

[F-16]

They meant HINY bro.

[Boost]

^ Hot Import Nights?

[J.]

I've heard the stories from my eldelies, my grandmother, when VP and some of his top officers and their families were evacuated in the spring of '75, those left behind on that day in Longcheng were all in a state of panic, things started to fall apart, it was chaos. The old Colonels and Lieutenants that were left took the new leadership roles and ordered everybody to go back to their villages. Majority of our men, grandfathers, fathers, uncles, fought for democracy but there were some hmong soldiers that took on the side of the Communist before and after the fall of Laos.

When the Communist won, the Laotian government went through the hmong villages interrogating and asking questions, "did your dad fight for the Americans and GVP", they specifically asked the young kids not their parents though. If the children said yes, the soldiers would come back at a later time and gather up all the men and take them to go study or train, but instead they were taken to be killed out in the jungles instead. Some of these soldiers happened to be hmong, who executed their own hmong people after VP and the Americans left. From late 75 onward for a period of several years after the war, when some of these old Colonels assumed their new roles of governing their own hmong people, many actrocities were committed against the hmong, and those unfortunate to not escape and flee into Thailand, were killed by their own Hmong leaders as well.

You can say it was still a hot mess after the secret war ended in 1975, and many more genocides and killing of the hmong people still happened after that.

http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/01/20/2240986/hmong-divided-on-vang-funeral.html#disqus_thread#ixzz1Ca11kOMe
"What Aninimouse keeps talking about is in fact real. After Vang Pao left for Thailand, the Pathet Laotian Government gave Lis Ceeb's Father (Ntxoov Pov Lis) the authority to control a small village. Now that he is a so called leader of a village with the power to do what he wants, the Hmong people of that village knew if they stayed they were going to suffer because everyone knows Ntxoov Pov is corrupt. The people of that village began to quietly flee to Thailand. Now here is the part were the crime was committed. If Ntxoov Pov, found out which family was going to flee from his village, he ordered them shot and killed on the spot. The story goes that he basically massacred almost an entire village. That's just what my parent's tell me though. Ntxoov Pov is still very much alive today and lives here in Fresno. Maybe we should all go pay him a visit to clarify these stories.

 The leader of the 18 clan council's father was a very corrupt man back in Laos. Perhaps one of the worst things he ever did was that he purposely didn't give monthly payments to a Laotian soldier who served under him for over a year. Now since that Laotian soldier didn't speak Hmong, it was even easier for Lis Ceeb's father (Ntxoov Pov) to scam the Laotian soldier. So for about a year Lis Ceeb's father took each of the monthly payment that was supposed to go to the Laotian soldier, and spent it on himself and his family. The term Lis Ceeb's father named the laotian soldier is Uam. Uam in Hmoob literally translates to "a person who is stupid."

Now i sure that same family who is now living in Fresno is still using their scam tactics to steal as much money as possible from anyone who is not smart enough to know it is a scam. I believe that their corrupt family's next scam is to make as much money as possible through the use of vang pao's funeral. I also believe that Vang Pao's family is smarter than this and used their family right to not allow such an organization to try and make money off of this funeral. I think all the anger from 18 clan is that they will not have any means to make (scam) more people people during this funeral. Don't get me wrong, 18 Clan Council is not the bad guys here, it's the self elected leaders that corrupted this organization. As soon as Lis Ceeb was nominated as leader, this organization has already doomed itself. I'd say about 85% of the Hmong population knows that Lis Ceeb and his family is all about scamming people, while 15% of the Hmong population dont care, are very ignorant, or just hate Vang Pao so much they just tag along whoever is against him. In this case, 18 Clan.

And one more thing, why are the 18 Clan Council all of a sudden trying to attend Vang Pao's funeral, when the whole entire year of 2010; all they did was bash his name. They probably want forgiveness because of how rude they were during the 2010 year."

[J.]

You all can take your own stance on this conflict even if you don't live in Fresno. The Hmong community in Fresno is divided, but majority of hmong people are pro-GVP and what he stood for and anti-18 Xeem.

This was another segment broadcasted off another local news station in Fresno NBC KSEE24 about the split of the two organizations. It's not embeddable so you're going to have to click on the link to watch.

http://www.ksee24.com/home/Vang-Pao---JPA-114384234.html

[F-16]

J - What you've heard were propogandas rather than facts.  I was a little kid when the Communists took over Laos and thank god my parents didn't joined chao fa.  Many of my uncles and their friends were ex high ranking GVP soldiers and they knew that without the American arm and air support there was no chance to withstand Lao communist batallions so they chose to live peacefully.  We lived for 4 years with a town of over 1000+ families and there was no problem whatsoever.  We even saw the famous Hmong communist Paj Cai batallion as well.  At first we lived too close to Chao Fa's territory so the elders asked the Communist Lao government to move us close to Mekong River because that was consider safe zone.  Once we knew we were safe then we just crossed to Thailand easily.

As to your claims about persecutions, I'm sure they took place but wasn't to an average peaceful person rather politically or pointing guns toward the government side.  Hmong never had access to world news during those time so one rumor turned into many that the communist were persecuted ex CIA soldiers.  My brother's friends eventually had to go with communist soldiers to called the Chao Fa to surrendered peacefully.  The shootings close to Mekong river south of Viantiane were mainly bandits of soldiers.  They knew the Hmong carried silver bars so that was why many tragedies in that zone.  My uncle who had fought since 1953 told me there were more Hmong died during Chao Fa than war time because civilians were included then.

As for this responder on the Fresno Bee about Toj Xeem Ntxoov Pov Lis, this person just wanted to demonize the Lee family only.  There are no facts to the story.  If he was that cruel then I'm sure somone would have assasinated him already.  Please beware the Lis Ceeb is only the president at 18 xeem and he doesn't control all agendas.  The organization was formed by Dr. Vang Shur.  Many of the clan leaders there were ex GVP loyals.  They broke away because they wanted a new direction that's all.  I rest my case from here.

[countthe$$$$]

f-16 and his spin doctoring again.  anything anyone says about 18 xeeb is "propogandas" while everything they say is "facts".  Here's what I heard about a Lee family(not sure of relation to lee ceeb):

Back in Laos after GVP left, 2 Lee brothers wanted to become leaders of the hmong still in laos.  to stop the flood of hmong fleeing into thailand, these brothers opened fire on the hmongs to stop them.  they killed scores of their own people hoping that some hmongs would return to laos so they can lord over them.  i've heard that they died in laos, but their half brother lives and has a business in fresno.  you don't have to believe me, i'm just some faceless person behind a keyboard, but listen to this guy and judge for yourself.  he refers to this atrocity during his speech.  after listening, go and ask your elders and judge for yourself.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/suabhmongradio/2011/01/20/zablong-vang-hmong-wisconsin-leader-send-his-words

f-16 - since you seem to know so much about the 18xeeb, why don't you shed some light or dispute some of the points made in the orginal post?  like some members of 18xeeb booked flights to thailand during gvp's funeral or how they're not honoring their commitment to pay the winners of their events?  but most importantly, why are they scaming people into donating funds for their "cause"? they've set up bank accounts and even gone door to door doing this. 

[yubnag]

Back in Laos after GVP left, 2 Lee brothers wanted to become leaders of the hmong still in laos.  to stop the flood of hmong fleeing into thailand, these brothers opened fire on the hmongs to stop them.  they killed scores of their own people hoping that some hmongs would return to laos so they can lord over them.  i've heard that they died in laos, but their half brother lives and has a business in fresno.  you don't have to believe me, i'm just some faceless person behind a keyboard, but listen to this guy and judge for yourself.  he refers to this atrocity during his speech.  after listening, go and ask your elders and judge for yourself.

What am I suppose to listen for again?

[yubnag]

countthe$$$$, people that makes such comments about 18 Xeem oughta follow up.

I guess for the meantime, we'll just have to sit back and watch.  

[yubnag]

setting up bank accounts and asking the public to "donate" funds to help secure a "better future"? 

Where's the account info, I'd like to donate. 

charging $10 for a candle and $10 for a flower at a vigil held for GVP?
 

Not true, attended the vigil along with parents, got videos of it too. They didn't provide candles or flowers. Each attendee brought his own.

[MrStranger]

Where's the account info, I'd like to donate. 

Not true, attended the vigil along with parents, got videos of it too. They didn't provide candles or flowers. Each attendee brought his own.

 

[F-16]

Counthe$$$ - I've never said that anything 18 xeem said was facts.  I was telling J. my facts that myself witnessed after Communist took over Laos in 1975.  It's up to you to believe the hearsays who was never there or someone like me who was there.  I was very young but could remembered the rights from wrongs.  The Lee brothers you've mentioned one of them were Lis Teeb whom ordered the communist soldiers to shoot Hmong at Heem Hawj when they tried to fled to Thailand.  That incident caused abdominal effect so a lot of Hmong turned into being Chao Fa in the jungles.  Lis Teeb wanted everyone to stay so he and Panya Touby Lyfoung could ruled Hmong after 1975.  Stories came out later that Communist laos executed both of them.

As for the incident about 18 xeem not paying their prizes, I've have no clues because I'm not involved with them.  I've heard of the donation plan you mentioned.  They announced on the radio on Saturday night and I too think it's not going to work either.  A business venture won't susceed if you have too many owners.  As for the candles and flowers, I guess Yubnag was there and she answered you.  Do not believe the hearsays and go on blah blah on PH.

[tubyaj]

Let's all not bash too much on GVP or 18 Clan.  A lot of people don't understand the concept of 18 Clan...if you are a Hmong and still respect the Hmong tradition...yo u are part of the 18 Clan.  Disregard the power hungry people within and you will appreciate what it may do for our people.

Think of 18 Clan and GVP in the following way:

Vang Pao - President of US
18 Clan - 18 States' rep (assuming all Vangs reside in one state, etc.)

[countthe$$$$]

Where's the account info, I'd like to donate. 

Not true, attended the vigil along with parents, got videos of it too. They didn't provide candles or flowers. Each attendee brought his own.

why don’t you go to their website http://hmongcouncil.com/ and email their “leaders”.  it’s funny that for a group that touts their “vision” for a better future, one of their first priorities is to get the “donation” section of their website up.  the “vision” section is “coming soon”. 

what's also funny is that 18xeeb supporters say gvp conned the hmong people to give him money to "take back laos", but now 18xeeb are doing the same thing in the name of "buying land for the hmong".  and don't use the defense "at least they have a vision", because the same could be said to rationalize what they accused gvp of.  hypocritical bunch of people. 


thanks for clarifying what occurred at their vigil.  i did not attend and have only seen others saying the exact opposite of what you said.  but since they are not on ph i wanted some clarification.  so until they come forward, this allegation is put to rest.  when proven wrong, allegations look bad on those who start them.

as for what you should listen for, f-16 already laid it out for you on what occured in laos.  still a good piece of info to listen to. 

[tubyaj]

what's also funny is that 18xeeb supporters say gvp conned the hmong people to give him money to "take back laos", but now 18xeeb are doing the same thing in the name of "buying land for the hmong".  and don't use the defense "at least they have a vision", because the same could be said to rationalize what they accused gvp of.  hypocritical bunch of people. 

You may be right.  However, the "buying land for the Hmong" is more logically sound then "taking Laos back".  It's tough but it's something that is possibly doable under the right leaderships and support.  Take to a smaller scale and you have that Hmong Vet Memorial in Fresno....duri ng the process you had a lot of sketical people, but now it's a true sitting memorial.  Buying land is a clearer vision....taki ng over a country...not so clear.