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Author Topic: What is the Original language? White or Green?  (Read 51834 times)

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CheejSiav

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What is the Original language? White or Green?
« on: January 05, 2013, 09:18:32 PM »
I've done some studies and have come upon the details of Hmong originated from Mongolia to China. The last war that Chi You had with Huang Di was because of conflict between two different culture and beliefs knowing the detail that after Chi You was defeated that the Hmong culture was impacted deeply had a significant change to the Hmong culture, beliefs, and language. Now concerning my understanding and obvious of the way language works. White Hmong has maintain the closest language to during the Ming Dynasty why I say so is because after Chi You lost the war with Huang Di Hmong from the San Miao have been travelling to Southern China to evade and avoid captivity from Chinese regulations and changes to the overall ethnic language and writing systems. So the ones that were able and willing to travel decide to travel down Southern China, Laos, and Thailand were able to maintain the language which is the White Hmong language. So here breaking it up to three geographical terrain: from studies if we go back to China we can surely know the reason why and it's because of this. Go to Northern China and they will claim themselves Hmong but they speak fluent Mandarin no Hmong at all, Central China and they speak Hmong Suav which we can still understand but it's like listening to a baby speak to you, Southern China and they speak Hmong Green/Leng which we can understand more profoundly than Hmong Suav, and lastly Laos/ Thailand White Hmong. Here we see that Hmong ARE Nomads and how we maintain our language is through travelling and working together because what would happen when we settle down in a different society? Our language starts to become adapted to theirs and that's when we get the kuv mus bathroom or kuv mus hoob nab instead of the kuv mus tawm rooj or kuv yuav mus siv chav dej.
Would you all agree on me? Comments please post I would love to discuss more. Thank you.



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chidorix0x

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 10:22:37 PM »
O0 , very interesting, for a while (long while), I thought I was the only person who subconsciously then consciously and then systematically, analytically, and reasonably concluded this "hypothesis" as well. Your logic closely aligns with mine, and is also the sole basis of my "argument/hypothesis" as well; that is "The White Hmong - language and culture - if not the original, is probably the most closest to our ancient ancestors because they are the ones who first migrated out of China, keeping its authenticity and was/is therefore the least persecuted, oppressed, and sinicized by the Chinese." This unfortunately cannot be said of the Hmong-Chinese (Miao); all of those who still live in parts of China: Western, Central, and Eastern. And if you start comparing those Hmong-Chinese (Miao), as you have mentioned/noted, the most Eastern Hmong-Chinese (Miao) are the most sinicized and the further West you move, they are the least sinicized; evident in the Hmong-Chinese (Miao) of Yunnan or "Paj Tas Lag", because they speak practically about 90% Hmong intelligibly, exactly if not identical to SE Asian and Western Hmong. And for the most part, it is almost the White Hmong dialect, though there are noticeably emphasized Green Hmong dialect mixed within.

Recently, I finished reading a book by N. Tapp titled:  The Hmong of China. Tapp makes a "point/statement" that the White Hmong - culturally and linguistically; those whom he originally encountered, field-researched, and had the opportunity to work with of SE Asia (Thailand and Laos) have all but immigrated to the West. And as far as Tapp is concerned or am aware, the White Hmong are "extinct - that was his exact word" in SE Asia and especially in China - namely the "spoken language" he is accustomed to hearing and have heard/known throughout his research. (I was almost "floored" when I came upon and read this brief insight/statement and forethought by one of the premier Hmong researcher of our time. Though this is not the "smoking gun" to solidify the White Hmong; its language and culture as the authentic and original main stay of our ancient ancestors. It does raise "questions" that needs to be answered and/or researched.)

And you may or may not know this already, but the Green Hmong - several proponents - have already claimed that the Green Hmong; their language and culture/customs is in fact the original, authentic, and most representative of our ancient ancestors. Their argument for the most part is the "exact opposite" of your (our) argument. That is, the Green Hmong stayed behind, and not having to move/travel cross-country to make a living were able to keep, maintain, and hold on to their heritage - language and culture/customs. And because the Chinese left them alone for the most part, they were minimally influenced. At least, that is the logic or argument. Ironically, some White Hmong (elders) I have spoken with and raised/asked this "issue" with seem to agree with the Green Hmong for the most part. Some of them, the elders, claim/argue that this is the main reason why the White Hmong are the least populous compared to the Green Hmong. (I disagree. My logic/reason is simply that because, we - the White Hmong, were the most resistant to being sinicized and more rebellious; tried to escape (run away) and thus were the most persecuted, oppressed, and executed thus our dwindling meager number. The Chinese, in fact, separated/categorized the Hmong/Miao into two distinct groups - the cooked (obedient/submissive) and the raw (resistant/rebellious). It is a no-brainer who were the "raw" Hmong/Miao. On this note, the book: Haiv Hmoob Liv Xwm, written by a Hmong/Miao researcher/professor points to a war/battle where the Chinese annihilated over 50% of the Hmong/Miao population. (I cried reading this, and have watery eyes now just rewriting it.) But those that did manage to escape, rebuilt or tried to rebuild their lives throughout SE Asia - meaning all of us lively freely (ignorantly) today.

Lastly, you said your studies (sources/resources) showed the Hmong/Miao originated in Mongolia then immigrated to China. Care to cite those resources and/or scholarly researchers, documents, and publication? (I am always open/looking to expand my Hmong/Miao history data-bank and knowledge-base.  Yeah, I have heard some folklore/tales alluding to Mongolia, but they are unfounded in my "humble/honest" opinion. I believe in the Siberia origination folklore/tale more because at least there are more scholarly works supporting that "hypothesis". Plus, you may or may not know this, but in the Hmong origination folklore/tale, it talks about 6-months of darkness in a blistering winter. Does Mongolia have such a climate - "winter solstice'. Nope. But Siberia definitely does. And interestingly, I saw a documentary a while back, and the aboriginals of Siberia bare a very close resemblance to the Hmong/Miao - mainly their lifestyle and culture, not language unfortunately.)


« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 10:39:59 PM by chidorix0x »

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IB THIAB NEEJ

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 10:47:36 AM »
I've ran into a lot of Mongolian nationals; we're nothing like them. Well, a few have told me their religion is "shaman." All the Chinese nationals I've spoken with consider Hmongs to be "Chinese." China comprises of many Chinese subgroups that is united as one. Some words in Mandarin are the same as Hmong words...or perhaps like you've mentioned, we've picked up. I saw a Hmong lady in Guangzhou. She was selling fake silver on the street. I can distinguish her Hmong face and clothes from afar. Through my translator, I asked if I could take a picture. She declined (should've just snapped without asking right?). I was hoping she spoke Hmong but she only spoke Mandarin.



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laib_laus

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 10:54:53 AM »
According to what i have experience and heard, most of the Hmong people all in Vietnam and in Chinese spoken Green Hmong. Especially when it regarding my clan, we did travel last year to Laos, Thailand, Vietnam and Chinese and about 90% is green. Some will speak white but it because other reason and that change their dialect lawm xwb.



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chidorix0x

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 04:11:28 PM »
I researched a bit about Yves Bertrais (called/known as Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov) - one of the co-founders/author of Hmong RPA - and surprisingly found this interview he did years ago - all in Hmong. Recall, he is one of the first French missionary to live with/among the Indochina Hmong starting in 1948. And since has contributed enormously to Hmong's present day prosperity - academic, economic, social, culture, politics etc. Starting in 1948, Bertrais learned and mastered spoken Hmong and intimately studied Hmong life, customs, and history to help preserve practically everything we take for granted today. Now, consistent with or directly related to our discussion about the White Hmong dialect, you will note and easily hear that Bertrais speaks near perfect White Hmong. Not a trace of the Green Hmong dialect can be heard nor is spoken throughout his entire interview. This is supportive evidence to the "hypothesis" that indeed, the White Hmong dialect, if not the original language of our ancestors, is in fact a "dialect" uniquely its own as we know and speak it today; not a deviation or hybrid of the Green Hmong dialect as some may claim, believe, or mislead the community at large. This is an important find and very interesting indeed.

(Here's the link if you want to listen to the audio.)
http://hmonglessons.com/the-hmong/hmong-language/rpa-hmong-writing-system/father-yves-bertrais/

(Sidenote:  I could not help but be amused at Lemoine's  criticisms of G. Yia Lee's naivety, who some US-Hmong (kids) have lauded as a sound Hmong researcher/historian.)



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Offline joot

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 11:07:51 AM »
By any chance both of you two (CheejSiav & chidorix0x) are Hmong White ? 



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chidorix0x

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 11:13:02 AM »
By any chance both of you two (CheejSiav & chidorix0x) are Hmong White ? 

It was only a matter of time before the Green beret showed up -  :) +1, for now ...



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CheejSiav

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 11:29:14 AM »
By any chance both of you two (CheejSiav & chidorix0x) are Hmong White ? 

Nyob zoo Joot kuv yog hmoob dawb zoo siab tau hnov nej sawv daws cov lus txhawb thiab tej ntaub ntawv kuv ntseeg tau tias peb haiv hmoob tau xwm fab puaj meem rau txhua txhia lub xeev thiab teb chaws lawm. Kuv zoo siab rau peb cov Xeev Txwj uas tseem tau pab peb haiv hmoob los tuav kom tau peb cov lus thiab kev coj noj coj ua.
What about you Joot are you Green or White?
Another study that I've done was with the words that Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov have gathered before the war and here's what I've came upon which Mandarin nor any other Chinese as I know knows it anymore for example:

Ua chib puaj liam: to do poorly, do sloppily
Xwm fab puaj meem: In every direction or the new word that we use is "plaub ceg kaum ntuj" meaning everywhere
xeeb ceem/ Moj Yam: personality, attitude
and Faj tim txaim pem cees txaws lis thiaj txaws thoos thees: an idiom meaning "The lord is in Heaven and so the whole world must be ruled according to principle."

With this I see that we have more phrase and words to learn other than just the easy Kuv, koj, nws, hnub, hli, and etc.



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Offline joot

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 12:20:06 PM »
It was only a matter of time before the Green beret showed up -  :) +1, for now ...


^^ Is this a legitimate question to ask or not ?  If your research are all true, why are you so offended by my simple question ?  Such childish behavior...how can I take your "research" seriously when questions at you offends you ?  It goes to show that you are a very bias individual indeed...



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Offline joot

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 12:30:47 PM »
Nyob zoo Joot kuv yog hmoob dawb zoo siab tau hnov nej sawv daws cov lus txhawb thiab tej ntaub ntawv kuv ntseeg tau tias peb haiv hmoob tau xwm fab puaj meem rau txhua txhia lub xeev thiab teb chaws lawm. Kuv zoo siab rau peb cov Xeev Txwj uas tseem tau pab peb haiv hmoob los tuav kom tau peb cov lus thiab kev coj noj coj ua.
What about you Joot are you Green or White?
Another study that I've done was with the words that Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov have gathered before the war and here's what I've came upon which Mandarin nor any other Chinese as I know knows it anymore for example:

Ua chib puaj liam: to do poorly, do sloppily
Xwm fab puaj meem: In every direction or the new word that we use is "plaub ceg kaum ntuj" meaning everywhere
xeeb ceem/ Moj Yam: personality, attitude
and Faj tim txaim pem cees txaws lis thiaj txaws thoos thees: an idiom meaning "The lord is in Heaven and so the whole world must be ruled according to principle."

With this I see that we have more phrase and words to learn other than just the easy Kuv, koj, nws, hnub, hli, and etc.


For your information, I am a Moob leeg.  I respect your findings.  I am here to provide constructive criticism.  As such, here are some of my suggestions: in order for a research endeavor to be called legitimate, all findings and source materials must be presented and must not show any bias in the research.  Seems all your "findings" are your opinions only.  There is no source materials presented to prove your point.  It never seems to amazed me whenever a Hmoob Dawb person does a "research" on this subject, white Hmong seems to be the "original" language.  When a Moob leeg does the same "research", it is the Moob leeg language.  Please show links to your sources and leave opinions as commentaries.. .




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chidorix0x

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »

^^ Is this a legitimate question to ask or not ?  If your research are all true, why are you so offended by my simple question ?  Such childish behavior...how can I take your "research" seriously when questions at you offends you ?  It goes to show that you are a very bias individual indeed...

They are not "my research". The only "my research" is the fact that I am directly self-educating, citing, referencing, highlighting, and pinpointing to exact/specific scholarships that are recognized, known, respected, more than not accepted, acknowledged, and universally taught, learned, and re-evaluated/researched approvingly within and throughout the known academic community at nearly all if not every level of academia. Ua tsaug -  :)


For your information, I am a Moob leeg.  I respect your findings.  I am here to provide constructive criticism.  As such, here are some of my suggestions: in order for a research endeavor to be called legitimate, all findings and source materials must be presented and must not show any bias in the research.  Seems all your "findings" are your opinions only.  There is no source materials presented to prove your point.  It never seems to amazed me whenever a Hmoob Dawb person does a "research" on this subject, white Hmong seems to be the "original" language.  When a Moob leeg does the same "research", it is the Moob leeg language.  Please show links to your sources and leave opinions as commentaries.. .

Please see the sources cited within my posts/comments - links, named scholars, book titles, published "excerpts" etc.. Ua tsaug -   ;) (I'd provide more but maybe you/every1 can do a better job at that themself,  O0)


« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 01:13:08 PM by chidorix0x »

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CheejSiav

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 01:13:16 PM »

For your information, I am a Moob leeg.  I respect your findings.  I am here to provide constructive criticism.  As such, here are some of my suggestions: in order for a research endeavor to be called legitimate, all findings and source materials must be presented and must not show any bias in the research.  Seems all your "findings" are your opinions only.  There is no source materials presented to prove your point.  It never seems to amazed me whenever a Hmoob Dawb person does a "research" on this subject, white Hmong seems to be the "original" language.  When a Moob leeg does the same "research", it is the Moob leeg language.  Please show links to your sources and leave opinions as commentaries.. .



Here's a few resources that I have http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/chmong.htm

and my source from Author Ralph D. Sawyer: "Ancient Chinese Warfare" he goes through a historical explanation of what happened to each kingdom in China.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4h9U5FxABIoC&pg=PA432&lpg=PA432&dq=Yang+and+Han,+CKKTS+1995:8,+32-41&source=bl&ots=KkhhR9FfIm&sig=9J_rpUtZNyzykl7vsDaq75HKyys&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QB3rUO44wtusAb3ggRg&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Yang%20and%20Han%2C%20CKKTS%201995%3A8%2C%2032-41&f=false

Here's a small record from the source.



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chidorix0x

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2013, 01:22:05 PM »
 CheejSiav, ( ;D)

That first link (cited source) is the worst possible resource on the internet in my honest opinion,  :-X . That individual who threw that material together after being spoon-fed via a workshop sponsored, taught, and orechestrated by Miao/Hmong-Chinese professors of Guizhou is not an academically recognized researcher, historian, and/or authority on Hmong/Miao scholarship - just so you know etc. Ua tsaug -  :)



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Offline joot

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2013, 02:26:23 PM »
So based solely on all of the above sources, both you two are coming to the conclusion that the Moob Dlawb dialect is the original dialect before the migration into Southeast Asia ?  Have you two ever spoken to any of the Moob elders (both Dlawb and Leeg) in your community about this issue besides sources off the internet ?  I cannot take biased opinions as truth....





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chidorix0x

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Re: What is the Original language? White or Green?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 06:11:18 AM »
So based solely on all of the above sources, both you two are coming to the conclusion that the Moob Dlawb dialect is the original dialect before the migration into Southeast Asia ?  Have you two ever spoken to any of the Moob elders (both Dlawb and Leeg) in your community about this issue besides sources off the internet ?  I cannot take biased opinions as truth....


To answer your question, yes and no. And taking into account your rationale and logic, even if I did talk to these Hmong/Mong elders (both Dlawb and Leeg), "I cannot take biased opinions as truth...."O0

Alternatively, this leads me to believe in, resolve matters, and take a more sound approach, rooted in the scholarships of known, respected, and affluent researchers - past, present, and future as is becomes available.

More importantly, where, who, and what sources, resources, and/or Hmong/Mong elders (both Dlawb and Leeg) is your "ammo" and "fact-finding", to either support or rectify the debacle being discussed. Care to cite them? (I, very much would love to know, to broaden my knowledge-base and data-bank of Hmong/Miao history.)



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