What is the Original language? White or Green?

[CheejSiav]

The facts can be found/researched and meticulously analyzed,  conceptualized, and concluded in and by all of the scholarships of Hmong/Miao research documented, taught, and acknowledged today on a global scale by all past, present, and future researchers - Hmong and non-Hmong.
 
Can you cite your "facts and research" info regarding your theories/supposition? - 

Even if they are Hmong/Mong individual(s) or folklore/tale(s) ("dab neeg"), just tell who and what folklore/tale(s) and I'd be more than happy to follow-up or check into them. (I am always looking to broaden my knowledge-base and data-bank on Hmong/Miao history etc. Ua tsaug.)

Also, not that I completely "disagree" with you, but I "disagree" with you regarding:  1) one "piav qeej" it in Green and 2) a lot of our fantastical characters have Green names; like Yawm Saub, instead of Yawg Saub.

I tried to learn "qeej" several years ago, and my "qeej" master "piav" (sang) all of the "qeej" songs in White -  Bottom line, this is all dependent on the "qeej" master or singer, it can be in either White or Green - not exclusive to one dialect. This also applies to any other Hmong art/custom, be it funeral or wedding including songs like "kwv txhiaj/lug txaj" or "paj huam" or "paj lug" etc.. Likewise, this also applies to "fantasical characters'" names too. It just depends on who - Green or White - is telling the folklore or tale. For example, the "fantastical characters" of "Nkauj Iab", "Nraug Oo", "Nuj Txeeg", "Nraug Zaj", "Nkauj Ntxawm", and "Yawg Saub" are all in the White dialect -  Unfortunately, I do not know nor have heard their Green dialect equivalent. ("Yawm Saub" is White by the way,  )

chidorixpx,
I agree on the fact and detail that is being stated here. I've also done some reading in Kwv txhiaj and the majority of the word that are being used as well as the meaning of the word if we know are all White Hmong dialect. Go into the Green Hmong dialect and there's no defenition to the word nor I don't think there's that many Kwv txhiaj in Green Hmong too because how did the Hmong convey their message after the Chinese took over? Through Kwv txhiaj right?
http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf
Now how the Miao/ Hmong convey their message to each other was through Kwv txhiaj where as only the Hmong people would understand it who here have been to China and have heard a full blood Mandarin hais Kwv Txhiaj?? None, so Kwv Txhiaj and the Paj Ntaub was establish for security and linking with each other. As well as telling stories that were past on through our generation such as "Dej Nyab Ntiaj Teb, Ntuj Tsim Teb Raug, Nkauj Iab Nraug Nab, Tus Pej Thuam", and etc.

[CheejSiav]

Where? In what forum? Please tell me. I would like to enhance my hmong writing.

it's actually in Saint Paul, Where are you from?
Maybe I could also establish a Hmong teaching forum here too. We'll discuss further.

[CheejSiav]

... perhaps you meant to "ceevsia" or "cheejsia"

... because ceev=save/spare=long and sia=life/lifespan whereas siav=cooked/ripe and cheej="no meaning by itself" or only implies long, as far as I know.

Chidorixox,

It's a tone change after a high tone, it's natural in us that's why we usually don't notice it. But I have a useful Hmong dictionary that I can give you through email for that information. What's your email address?

[chidorix0x]

CheejSiav,

Foremost, I personally do not have anything against G. Yia Lee, but every/any time you or anyone cites his stuff, I always "cringe" -  In time, if/should you continue to further study/research Hmong/Miao scholarship, you will understand where I am coming from.

And thanks for the offer (electronic dictionary) but I will have to pass - for now. I think I can manage, for the most part, without it.

I also wish I can/could learn "kwv txhiaj" - the old songs, of Laos' era, that is. I am told that genuine Hmong - words/terms, vocabulary, and in-depth or ancient words - are all found or are within these songs. Sadly, not too many elders who know "kwv txhiaj" are alive anymore. And those that are, very very few, teaches anymore. (I know of none as a matter of fact. And whatever is out there today are modernized versions etc. only - lacking the knowledge and insight I seek or want.) I ran into a "kwv txhiaj" expert once, so they or he claims. He said he would be glad to teach me. But I lost his contact info.,  . I am going to see if I can find him again and get going on this,  . Hopefully he hasn't changed his mind about teaching me. Even if I do not learn "kwv txhiaj", I am going to record all of his songs for further analysis, evaluation, and historical interpretation and documentation.

Aside from "kwv txhiaj", apparently further knowledge, Hmong language that is, can be found in funeral and wedding songs - "cov zaj ib siab ob qig thiab tshoob kos". I am learning some of the funeral songs at the moment, but will have to find a teacher/master for the wedding songs. (Yeah, I know you can get/find some on U-tube, and I have listened to a few of those already. Interesting stuff.)

[EliteZero01]

I think Moob Leeg is a Chinese variation.  There are some Chinese words that sounds like Moob Leeg, ie:  Xaab, is actually "peb," (three) in our modern spoken language, but some older generatin/elders still say "xaab" when they mean "peb."  Listen to Chinese counting, they actually say "Ib, Ob, Xaab," etc...."  Interesting...

Another word, it is referred to either as a cold or flu, in the Moob Leeg, is pronounces the same way as in Chinese, too.  The word is: Saab foob.  Not sure if Moob Dlawb has this word.  If they do, they would pronounce it as:  Sab Foob, and the first word isn't enunce like the Chinese'...but I think a lot of our culture and religion are from China.  We Hmong, wherever we live, we adopt their religion, cultures, ways of life.  In other words, we evolve very rapid, we blend in with whatever country we live in.  Take for example, how much we have changed, just from 1975 until now, look at us.  We have changed to so much! 

[Great Sage]

It's a pointless debate in which we will never know the truth.

To put it lightly, all research on Hmong history is complicated by the fact that we have oral history that doesn't recollect the last century. Unlike some ancient civilizations that left clues like pottery, statues or writings, etc... Hmong have no artifacts that offer clues about our distant past. In fact, if you watch videos where people go to Laos or Thai and interview very old Hmong people (even those past 100 years) about our origins, NONE of them can recall or have answers. This proves just how far removed we are from our past.

The best researchers can do is compare and contrast Hmong to other cultures (i.e. Chinese, Thai, Lao, Mongolians, etc) and string together theories. Yet, few theories regarding Hmong have been resolved. For example, no one really knows where Hmong really came from. We have people who say China, Mongolia, and even the Middle East.

Have any of you considered another alternative? What if our original language was neither green or white. Perhaps it was something completely different. And then over time, as Hmong spread out, it became 2 separate dialects. This seems like a more plausible theory since most dialects evolve from being seperated from the original source.

Look no further than English. At one time Americans spoke the same "English" as the British. But time away from the motherland and developing their own socio-culture changed their language. Presently, we notice differences between southerners and northerners in terms of accents, and meaning. If you go down south, no one knows what a bubbler is. To them it's a drinking fountain. This is just an example of language developing in different areas.

[chidorix0x]

Great Sage,

You do make some valid points: Hmong people do not know their true origin (homeland), the original language may likely be neither White or Green, and language evolves over time and due to environmental factors or influences.

As a whole, those points are indisputable. But on a purely scholastic and/or scientific level, I believe we, Hmong, need to start looking for answers. These three among others need answers or at least sound scholarly explanation. (I won't go into as to why?)

Seriously, how can one claim to be a people, and not know or try to find the simplest answers to their existence and being? Namely, what is our origin (ancient homeland)? What is our native tongue, culture, and custom etc.? And how have we evolved and have been evolving? If you look at all the developed (educated and intellectual) countries and nationalities throughout the world, throughout history as a matter of fact, they know with some great certainty the answers to these three simple question. That for the most part, is my biggest proponent and argument about having these types of discussion or debate - questions to be answered. (Beyond that, yes, people will have their bias and personal opinions - founded or unfounded in scholarships and scientific research. That is fine too.)

And I am not trying to accuse the Green Hmong, but, the initial conjecture that the Green dialect, culture, custom, and people were in fact the original Hmong of our ancestors were in fact made by them or their elders. There is even a U-tube video specific to this posture. Look for it if you are curios, if it is still available, that is.

Lastly, in nature, what generally happens to the original species as it evolves or migrates. Simply put, it becomes "extinct". And we all know that as a whole, there are 10-times plus more Green Hmong than White Hmong globally, even in the West (US, Canada, etc.). I have already said this, but N. Tapp concluded in one of his research publication, that the White Hmong are "extinct" in SE Asia and China. The few remnants have all but immigrated to the West.

[EliteZero01]

Is it a fact that White Hmong are less than Green Hmong?  I thought it's the other way around.  By just going around, I meet White Hmong 5:1 in ratio to Green Hmong.

[CheejSiav]

It's a pointless debate in which we will never know the truth.

To put it lightly, all research on Hmong history is complicated by the fact that we have oral history that doesn't recollect the last century. Unlike some ancient civilizations that left clues like pottery, statues or writings, etc... Hmong have no artifacts that offer clues about our distant past. In fact, if you watch videos where people go to Laos or Thai and interview very old Hmong people (even those past 100 years) about our origins, NONE of them can recall or have answers. This proves just how far removed we are from our past.

The best researchers can do is compare and contrast Hmong to other cultures (i.e. Chinese, Thai, Lao, Mongolians, etc) and string together theories. Yet, few theories regarding Hmong have been resolved. For example, no one really knows where Hmong really came from. We have people who say China, Mongolia, and even the Middle East.

Have any of you considered another alternative? What if our original language was neither green or white. Perhaps it was something completely different. And then over time, as Hmong spread out, it became 2 separate dialects. This seems like a more plausible theory since most dialects evolve from being seperated from the original source.

Look no further than English. At one time Americans spoke the same "English" as the British. But time away from the motherland and developing their own socio-culture changed their language. Presently, we notice differences between southerners and northerners in terms of accents, and meaning. If you go down south, no one knows what a bubbler is. To them it's a drinking fountain. This is just an example of language developing in different areas.

Great Sage,

I agree with your insight that's why if we go further into the Hmong language we get a lot of old chinese but the question is what is further than that? I did some study in Chinese history and found out that China used to have conflict with the Romans who have tried once to overtake China but they eventually fail but what happen?
Well usually when you go to war you usually settle in a place and make bunkers or a intelligent quarter there well when that happen Soldiers back then usually have relationship with their opposing country peasants or common people. And when that happen you get a whole different gene. For example, have you ever wonder why studies on Chinese people having different phylogeny on Northern China and Southern China populace is different? If all of us did and are related somehow why would our Gene be different from the Han and other ethnic populace?

[Great Sage]

Great Sage,

You do make some valid points: Hmong people do not know their true origin (homeland), the original language may likely be neither White or Green, and language evolves over time and due to environmental factors or influences.

As a whole, those points are indisputable. But on a purely scholastic and/or scientific level, I believe we, Hmong, need to start looking for answers. These three among others need answers or at least sound scholarly explanation. (I won't go into as to why?)

Seriously, how can one claim to be a people, and not know or try to find the simplest answers to their existence and being? Namely, what is our origin (ancient homeland)? What is our native tongue, culture, and custom etc.? And how have we evolved and have been evolving? If you look at all the developed (educated and intellectual) countries and nationalities throughout the world, throughout history as a matter of fact, they know with some great certainty the answers to these three simple question. That for the most part, is my biggest proponent and argument about having these types of discussion or debate - questions to be answered. (Beyond that, yes, people will have their bias and personal opinions - founded or unfounded in scholarships and scientific research. That is fine too.)

I agree with you. We do have a responsibility to find our history. But we must do so with caution and speculation. There are just too many people with too many theories that don’t agree. Therefore, we must accept that a definitive answer to our history may not be possible at the moment.

My feeling is that we require a body of Hmong scientists/scholars with adequate funding to do extensive research as a starting point. At the moment, I don’t believe there are enough qualified individuals for this task. But I do see it happening in the next 10-20 years.

And I am not trying to accuse the Green Hmong, but, the initial conjecture that the Green dialect, culture, custom, and people were in fact the original Hmong of our ancestors were in fact made by them or their elders. There is even a U-tube video specific to this posture. Look for it if you are curios, if it is still available, that is.

Lastly, in nature, what generally happens to the original species as it evolves or migrates. Simply put, it becomes "extinct". And we all know that as a whole, there are 10-times plus more Green Hmong than White Hmong globally, even in the West (US, Canada, etc.). I have already said this, but N. Tapp concluded in one of his research publication, that the White Hmong are "extinct" in SE Asia and China. The few remnants have all but immigrated to the West.

Honestly, I’ve heard both white and green Hmong make similar statements that do nothing but cause division and rivalry. If you are truly interested in scholarly debate and work, you must hold yourself above such foolishness. It is innate human nature to believe one’s group is better so that others may flock to it. This kind of behavior is present in all animals.

My last point is that I’ve always believed there were more white Hmongs than green; at least in America. I tend to see white Hmongs and never green. This is just my experience.

[CheejSiav]

I think Moob Leeg is a Chinese variation.  There are some Chinese words that sounds like Moob Leeg, ie:  Xaab, is actually "peb," (three) in our modern spoken language, but some older generatin/elders still say "xaab" when they mean "peb."  Listen to Chinese counting, they actually say "Ib, Ob, Xaab," etc...."  Interesting...

Another word, it is referred to either as a cold or flu, in the Moob Leeg, is pronounces the same way as in Chinese, too.  The word is: Saab foob.  Not sure if Moob Dlawb has this word.  If they do, they would pronounce it as:  Sab Foob, and the first word isn't enunce like the Chinese'...but I think a lot of our culture and religion are from China.  We Hmong, wherever we live, we adopt their religion, cultures, ways of life.  In other words, we evolve very rapid, we blend in with whatever country we live in.  Take for example, how much we have changed, just from 1975 until now, look at us.  We have changed to so much! 

I believe so to Elitezero1
breaking up the Hmong leeg language and like you mentioned about Chinese counting system yi, er, san, si, . .etc. Hmong Leeg having similar words to the Han speaking dialect. Like Xib fwb in Green Hmong the "H" consonant is always pronounce with an "F" consonant the Chinese said xib fwb the same way like the Green Hmong Shi fu. White Hmong have affricated and nasalized consonants that the Chinese can't use therefore it's a lot harder to pronounce and learn. For example Nqhoob. You don't pronounce the "N" you nasalize it through your nose to pronounce the "n".

[EliteZero01]

Me personally, I  give up the idea.  Without solid background/history books about us specifically, there is no way we will ever find out about past accurately.  Everything is just a hearsay.  It's all about  "he says, she says, they say, this or that person says this and that."  Where are the books that back up anyone's claims?  None.  We Hmong live by "words of mouth," not by written formulas, for centuries, thousands of years,  ever since who knows.  Not a single written record whatsoever.

That's why I give up.  It's pointless.  We should start from 1975 and  forward.    That way at least the future Hmong will know up to that year.

[chidorix0x]

Is it a fact that White Hmong are less than Green Hmong?  I thought it's the other way around.  By just going around, I meet White Hmong 5:1 in ratio to Green Hmong.

You need to get out more often, besides your home and backyard then, 

In the US, on the surface, it appears there are more White versus Green, because recall, all (most) of the White Hmong have immigrated here. And in general, White communities are more established than Green communities thus your experience. Also, do not forget, Green can easily speak the White dialect - the bulk of them do, so do not assume they are White simply because they speak White.

As a whole and on a global scale there is way way way more Green than White. That is fact. Do the research if you want irrefutable fact/truth.

[chidorix0x]

I agree with you. We do have a responsibility to find our history. But we must do so with caution and speculation. There are just too many people with too many theories that don’t agree. Therefore, we must accept that a definitive answer to our history may not be possible at the moment.

My feeling is that we require a body of Hmong scientists/scholars with adequate funding to do extensive research as a starting point. At the moment, I don’t believe there are enough qualified individuals for this task. But I do see it happening in the next 10-20 years.


Honestly, I’ve heard both white and green Hmong make similar statements that do nothing but cause division and rivalry. If you are truly interested in scholarly debate and work, you must hold yourself above such foolishness. It is innate human nature to believe one’s group is better so that others may flock to it. This kind of behavior is present in all animals.

My last point is that I’ve always believed there were more white Hmongs than green; at least in America. I tend to see white Hmongs and never green. This is just my experience.

First point, although there are Hmong scholars nowadays, they are just barely putting together all of the pieces of the puzzle. As a matter of fact, from my research and review of their works, they are just as confused, uncertain, and lost as we, average joes, are etc. The fact is, there is no substantial funding period to further their research or take it to the next level. Lastly, any research being done today, mainly by Hmong scholars, are all rooted and found in previous research and researchers exclusively; thus only regurjutating their perspectives, ideas, assumptions, and/or bias. I have yet to see any original Hmong research or challenges to the norm. (Hmong are wussies for the most part in my opinion.)

Secondly, true, White and Green have made antagonistic bias claims. However, I have never heard a White made a claim or posture that the White dialect, culture, and custom etc. is the authentic original Hmong. Only the Green. Plus, I have never heard my grandparents, parents, or White elders say anything along this line either. When I heard the Green making this conjecture, I asked the White elders etc., and they more or less agreed with the Green's postulation - citing that that is why there are more Green globally and from our homeland - China. (I did not buy it of course, because when pressed for explanations, facts, and folklore to verify this conjecture, the White elders, had nothing. They simply said, "I don't know.")

Lastly, all the White, especially from SE Asia, have all but immigrated to the West (USA); thus there are more White here. (See N. Tapp's theory/conclusion on the matter.) Outside of the West, the Green is the more more populous; present day SE Asia and China, and globally.

[YeejKoob13]

Me personally, I  give up the idea.  Without solid background/history books about us specifically, there is no way we will ever find out about past accurately.  Everything is just a hearsay.  It's all about  "he says, she says, they say, this or that person says this and that."  Where are the books that back up anyone's claims?  None.  We Hmong live by "words of mouth," not by written formulas, for centuries, thousands of years,  ever since who knows.  Not a single written record whatsoever.

That's why I give up.  It's pointless.  We should start from 1975 and  forward.    That way at least the future Hmong will know up to that year.

I share similar sentiments to yours as well. We probably won't ever know with a high degree of certainty what our original language was. Or perhaps maybe we are still holding to remnants of it? And maybe this is it (with modifications and added vocabs of course)? Who really knows.

However, we shouldn't use the 1975 mark (when we lost the war and immigrated?) as a definitive starting point for future Hmong to look back to and reference that as being the Hmong language/culture. I'm guessing you're just jesting here? Anyways we as a whole have ancestors whom still recall the migration from Southern China to Nyablajteb and LosTsuas so if there's a "starting point" it should be from this time frame. That way we won't have the christian influence perverting our Hmong culture and language, thus future Hmong will still realize that it's a foreign religion and shouldn't be part of our ways.