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Author Topic: Marriage within same clan  (Read 44279 times)

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Tubpojntxoog

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2013, 01:39:32 PM »
I'm sure they were more concerned with incest becoming a problem in Hmong society.

In any case, I find it hypocritical to call them "stupid" for believing what they believed. All races of people are built upon the pillars of ancestors. Even your own ideas had to come from somewhere. No American is ignorant enough to call their Fore Fathers idiots because they had no knowledge of modern science. Yet, here you are presenting the same illogical analogy.

Tell you what, go marry the same last name and bring shame on yourself and your family. I guarantee you will regret it. Of the very few people I know who have done this shameful act, NONE of them can show their faces in public anymore. In fact, they ended up getting divorced because it was too much for them. But the damage is done and they are too embarrassed to do anything near Hmong people; even their friends and family. Think about that.

Well, I guess we all know and understand your point, because we all have seen it ourselves, as Hmong people. Maybe I should clarify my question. I'm saying do you guys think its time to change or not? Please give your reasons. I have been discussing this issue with some elders and many see the time for change. What about you, the younger generations?




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PebHmoobUnited

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2013, 01:48:36 PM »
TPT...why don;t you pose your questions in a new thread?



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Great Sage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2013, 03:11:29 PM »
sage...point taken, but if these "geniuses" were smart as you claimed....why allowed first cousins marriage?

The intellect of our ancestors is not in question here. They set parameters base on the ethics and cultural norms. Marrying cousins with DIFFERENT last names is within the parameters. However, I’m beginning to see that in the United States, this is less of an occurance.


question is..... uacas hos (WHY is it) WRONG to yuav yuv own clan...I want to know the truth behind such nonsense rule?  So far, no one has lay out the FACTS to back up such rule?  Anyone? 

Are you really so naïve?

The same justification you have for marrying your own clan name can be used to justify marrying your sister, mother, brother, father, uncle, etc… So where does it stop? It’s unethical as stated by our ancestors. Furthermore, it’s not a cultural norm. Society is defined by laws and cultural norms; even if they pose no real threat. They still have ethical and moral implications. For instance, you can make a case for marrying your sister; even to the extent of providing scientific proof that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Yet, it will still be condemned by society. In fact, it’s illegal in many parts of the world, including the US in some way, shape or form.

There is no law that prevents you from marrying your own clan name. However, it is socially taboo in Hmong society. If this reason isn’t good enough for you, then what is? Does it need to be handed down from gods? People make rules as to what is culturally accepted or not. Same name clan marriages generally are not. Do a search on the Internet or ask around. I believe most people, regardless of race, have reservations about marrying someone with the same last name.



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AOZ

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2013, 04:49:24 PM »
i don't' care what science or what the world says.  because every single day... new research comes out that refutes old research.  i preach to my kids these two 'common sense' values...

1. not marry same last name
2. not marry 1st cousins




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Offline theking

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 09:58:23 PM »
I have been discussing this issue with some elders and many see the time for change.

Good to see them thinking about "change" and moving forward because the primitive reason of not being able to marry a stranger with the same last name is as good as the everyone came from Adam and Eve therefore all of us are blood related or minorities cannot marry white people because they are not as good or gays and lesbians are sinners in the eyes of many Christians' God primitive reasons ::).

There is really no good reason(s) for that belief. Some clans even go as far as not marrying certain other clans because it won't work. Some even believed that Hmong used to be able marry within the same last name but adapted to the Chinese ways of not being able to a long time ago. Funny thing is the Chinese have move away from that primitive belief but many Hmong still chose to follow it even though it came from the Chinese according to some.

As mentioned earlier, it's really up to you or the individual to decide as there's nothing wrong or illegal about two strangers with the same last name tying the knot. Therefore, if you don't feel right, don't do it. If you feel good about it, do it. Yes, it's that simple.




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Great Sage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 07:39:46 AM »
It doesn't matter. Most Hmong are smart enough to understand same surname marriage is taboo. And we've made an example of the few strays who did it. But if you really feel that being Hmong is too restrictive, by all means do it. You'll learn very quickly what kind of life you've chosen  :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:



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PebHmoobUnited

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 09:23:42 AM »
The intellect of our ancestors is not in question here. They set parameters base on the ethics and cultural norms. Marrying cousins with DIFFERENT last names is within the parameters. However, I’m beginning to see that in the United States, this is less of an occurance.


Are you really so naïve?

The same justification you have for marrying your own clan name can be used to justify marrying your sister, mother, brother, father, uncle, etc… So where does it stop? It’s unethical as stated by our ancestors. Furthermore, it’s not a cultural norm. Society is defined by laws and cultural norms; even if they pose no real threat. They still have ethical and moral implications. For instance, you can make a case for marrying your sister; even to the extent of providing scientific proof that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Yet, it will still be condemned by society. In fact, it’s illegal in many parts of the world, including the US in some way, shape or form.

There is no law that prevents you from marrying your own clan name. However, it is socially taboo in Hmong society. If this reason isn’t good enough for you, then what is? Does it need to be handed down from gods? People make rules as to what is culturally accepted or not. Same name clan marriages generally are not. Do a search on the Internet or ask around. I believe most people, regardless of race, have reservations about marrying someone with the same last name.


I like how you people come up with all sort of "culture" ideology illustrations to counter your lack of proof to back up why marrying your own "CLAN" is morally wrong?  I've read and heard the same arguments all the time....MOST are nothing but gibberish at best.

Until you have something "NEW" to convince me otherwise, you people are simply NOT thinking in the big scheme of things.  We no longer live in a world run by "fairy tales stories or "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia" lawm....We live in a "SCIENTIFIC" world were we MUST question our values and culture if we are to advance ideologically and sociologically ....   



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PebHmoobUnited

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 09:25:36 AM »
i don't' care what science or what the world says.  because every single day... new research comes out that refutes old research.  i preach to my kids these two 'common sense' values...

1. not marry same last name
2. not marry 1st cousins



AOZ...you can cross out the first value....ua tsaug.  O0 O0



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Great Sage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 09:45:39 AM »
I like how you people come up with all sort of "culture" ideology illustrations to counter your lack of proof to back up why marrying your own "CLAN" is morally wrong?  I've read and heard the same arguments all the time....MOST are nothing but gibberish at best.

Then why do you follow the ideology of not marrying your sister's kids? You don't because it's embarrassing right? And it's socially unacceptable. 


Until you have something "NEW" to convince me otherwise, you people are simply NOT thinking in the big scheme of things.  We no longer live in a world run by "fairy tales stories or "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia" lawm....We live in a "SCIENTIFIC" world were we MUST question our values and culture if we are to advance ideologically and sociologically ....   

Who told you cultural norms are dictated soley by science? There's nothing scientific about Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc... Yet, people celebrate these Holidays as if they're REAL. To them, it's real enough. They are culture and tradition... Not science.

If you're so beyond culture and tradition, then why bother asking any of us? Just go and do what you feel like doing. In fact, why bother with any rules at all that have no scientific backing? Go rob someone, it's not scientifically wrong to do that. Science doesn't say it's wrong to beat someone's face in or steal their identity.

This is not a question of science, it's a question or ethics, morals and cultural values.

Part of being Hmong is having a set of cultural and traditional parameters that set us apart from other ethnicities. The same can be argued of any other race, culture, ethnicity. Indians don't beef... There's nothing scientific about that. It's all cultural.

Science helps us in the way of teaching us about proper diet and getting proper exercise, etc... But it doesn't provide morals and ethics as they relate to cultural norms. The ethics of science is not to use it in a negative way. And even that's not scientific. It's a moral issue.

Trust me, if science was the sole reason for us getting married, few of us would qualify. Only the fittest, brightest people without defects would be allowed to marry.


« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:52:39 AM by Great Sage »

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PebHmoobUnited

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2013, 10:04:06 AM »
GS....

The things you listed are fairy tales of a people....so it's ok to believe in them....we already know why it existed....

BUT for what you and I seem to disagree is that hmoob can't differentiate fairy tales from real scientific truth...You see, those who based their values and culture with scientific reasons are ALWAYS ahead of those who relied on "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".

What I'm saying is that...there's NOTHING morally and scientifically WRONG for two people of the same clan to marry each other except first and second cousins.  If it is WRONG as said then why are we allowed to marry others when scientifically, we're all came from one dad and one mom?

You see where i'm going?




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HUNG TU LO

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2013, 10:10:51 AM »

Honey Siong


If she was in your Xyooj clan, not blood related but just ua ib pab (of the same clan), and she came on to you, your ass would give up your kwv tij in a flash and you'd book out of your hometown in a heart beat to be with that fine piece of mmmmm, mmmmmmmm lady. Hell, you'd give up your ethnicity. And if you didn't, you're lying or you're gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

That's a Men's Wearhouse GUARAN-DAMN-TEE



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PebHmoobUnited

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2013, 10:11:13 AM »
Then why do you follow the ideology of not marrying your sister's kids? You don't because it's embarrassing right? And it's socially unacceptable. 


Who told you cultural norms are dictated soley by science? There's nothing scientific about Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc... Yet, people celebrate these Holidays as if they're REAL. To them, it's real enough. They are culture and tradition... Not science.

If you're so beyond culture and tradition, then why bother asking any of us? Just go and do what you feel like doing. In fact, why bother with any rules at all that have no scientific backing? Go rob someone, it's not scientifically wrong to do that. Science doesn't say it's wrong to beat someone's face in or steal their identity.

This is not a question of science, it's a question or ethics, morals and cultural values.

Part of being Hmong is having a set of cultural and traditional parameters that set us apart from other ethnicities. The same can be argued of any other race, culture, ethnicity. Indians don't beef... There's nothing scientific about that. It's all cultural.

Science helps us in the way of teaching us about proper diet and getting proper exercise, etc... But it doesn't provide morals and ethics as they relate to cultural norms. The ethics of science is not to use it in a negative way. And even that's not scientific. It's a moral issue.

Trust me, if science was the sole reason for us getting married, few of us would qualify. Only the fittest, brightest people without defects would be allowed to marry.

Sage...what are you talking about? Lets stick to topic.... I hope you didn't think I was interested in INCEST, which I would be the first to condemn?  However, my view is simple....as stated earlier, those who are not first or second cousins should be allowed to date and married within same clan.   

 



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AOZ

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2013, 10:25:45 AM »
phu aws... if you are ok with your kids marrying other 'VUE' ppl....  and of course in your opinion... your 'vue' clan probably is the best clan out there that you [narcissist] want to keep it all in your 'vue' family clan [not same lineage]... then yes... do that.  hehehe... no one is stopping you.

however, it's unethical to force your belief on those of us who are against it... not to mention even consider it a law...  ::) .... how rude...  just because everything inch of your muscle can't resist another of the same last name doesn't make it right for you to pursue that person... nor preach that it should be deemed a law.   ::) 

for all we know... this may very well someday be a genetic defect causing these situations.   ;D



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Great Sage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2013, 10:33:58 AM »
GS....

The things you listed are fairy tales of a people....so it's ok to believe in them....we already know why it existed....

BUT for what you and I seem to disagree is that hmoob can't differentiate fairy tales from real scientific truth...You see, those who based their values and culture with scientific reasons are ALWAYS ahead of those who relied on "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".

What I'm saying is that...there's NOTHING morally and scientifically WRONG for two people of the same clan to marry each other except first and second cousins.  If it is WRONG as said then why are we allowed to marry others when scientifically, we're all came from one dad and one mom?

You see where i'm going?



I see that the principle upon which you are arguing is flawed. So here it is.

PebHmoobUnited believes: People of the same last name should be allowed to marry, because there's nothing morally or scientifically wrong with it.

Morally, it's already been deemed immoral by our ancestors. This is not a science, it's a cultural choice based on who we are; Hmong. Like I said, Indians decided long ago they would not eat beef... It's a cultural choice.

Scientifically, where does it begin or end? How do you know who is related to you or not? And what's to stop them? There's no science that says your son can't marry your brother's daughter of the same last name. So what if they wanted to?... What then? You're going to make this rule: first cousins and second cousins can't marry BASED ON MORAL VALUES, not scientific values... WHICH SOMEONE WILL CHALLENGE AT SOME POINT IN TIME.

The principle of your argument contradicts itself. You want to avoid the ethics of the issue by insisting that science proves it's okay; but when confronted by its own problems, the science should be avoided in favor of morals. In other words, they don't work together like they're supposed to.

When you son decides to marry your brother's daughter (same last name), you'll be using the same ideology I present you now, and not science.


« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 10:52:19 AM by Great Sage »

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Great Sage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2013, 10:38:28 AM »
You are mistaken... Every day we are confronted with beautiful men and women that we want. It doesn't mean we have a chance, nor does it mean we can just jump on them. If that were the case, then we would be like animals.

I have seen countless beautiful women from my clan. But it's okay, because I've also seen countless beautiful women from other clans. It's not a sea of one species. It's an ocean of fishes. You are thinking too small and it's distorting your perception.



Honey Siong


If she was in your Xyooj clan, not blood related but just ua ib pab (of the same clan), and she came on to you, your ass would give up your kwv tij in a flash and you'd book out of your hometown in a heart beat to be with that fine piece of mmmmm, mmmmmmmm lady. Hell, you'd give up your ethnicity. And if you didn't, you're lying or you're gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

That's a Men's Wearhouse GUARAN-DAMN-TEE



« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 10:43:23 AM by Great Sage »

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