Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?

[Wi_sweetguy]

What 2+2 is four??? And all this  time I thought is was three. Dam...LOL J/K.. I couldn't help but this was calling for a joke. Hee

2+2=3. 1 for GOD the father. 2. the son Jesus and 3. for the HOLY SPIRIT.  HAHA My GPA jumped up to 4.1 Yeh..

haha..LOL. 
I think afterlife is too serious about religion. Man he need to get lay or something. SOmebody help him please.

[minorcharacter]

Declaring yourself the winner of such an arbitrary topic of usually the sign of a sore loser.  Don't be so butt hurt, man.

[Believe_N_Me]

I'm actually very curious as to why there aren't more Hmong atheist raising suspicions about Shamanism/Animism/Ancestral Worship and putting a stop to it.

First of all, our old Hmong beliefs should not have any logical sense to the atheist. It can't. It shouldn't take a Hmong Christian to post up this thread but the atheist who would no doubt ask the Shaman followers where the foundation of such spiritual practices began and why.

Secondly, our old Hmong beliefs are more dangerous to the atheist than atheists are aware of. It is the very fact that Shamanism lays low key and under the radar that makes them more harmful to Hmong. Why? Well if the atheists knew anything about Hmong cultural and traditional practices, they would know it is all rooted in our old Hmong beliefs. After all, it is our old Hmong beliefs that exclude females from carrying the clan name because it is believed the house spirit of the clan remains with men only. This leads to things like "bride price" because the woman must undergo monetary exchange in order to be accepted into her husband's clan (his house spirit). Which then leads to the reason why funerals become a sore for female widowers/divorcees/spinsters, etc. Things can get messy when the husband's clan doesn't give her a proper funeral and so on because she won't belong anywhere nor does she have the proper spirit to accompany her.

These are just a few examples of how old Hmong beliefs dictate Hmong life. And if atheists are all about the here and now and progressive movement then they, above anybody else, should be the ones to address Shamanistic and old Hmong practices.

But naturally, I don't see any atheists having the guts to do so. Or perhaps they really are just ignorant to the fact that they've been fighting against the wrong religion all along. They think if people can just be more Americanized then these things will sort itself out. Little do they know it has a lot to do with religious/spiritual beliefs.

I've stopped having high expectations for Hmong a long time ago. Ua dabtsis ces ua rov qab thiab tsis paub qhov tseeb li. Tsuas paub mus xyaum luag tej txuj tabsis twb tsis paub qhov tseeb tseeb. Mus qhuas qhuas meskas tabsis tsis lees paub tias meskas lub tswvyim twb yog los ntawm lawv txoj kev ntseeg Yexus (yes, even cov meskas uas claim to be atheist los lawv lub tswvyim yeej tseem yog los ntawm Yexus cov philosophy).

[minorcharacter]

Haha. I'm pretty positive you don't know what an atheist is. Keep going though, you seem to be on a roll.

[Believe_N_Me]

Haha. I'm pretty positive you don't know what an atheist is. Keep going though, you seem to be on a roll.

Sounds like you don't know what an atheist is, especially a Hmong atheist. If they were actually concerned at all about the Hmong then they would recognize that Shamanism is a bigger threat to the progressive state of the Hmong than Christianity.

[saki saki]

Sounds like you don't know what an atheist is, especially a Hmong atheist. If they were actually concerned at all about the Hmong then they would recognize that Shamanism is a bigger threat to the progressive state of the Hmong than Christianity.

Wat a threat.. HOLY SPIRIT of Mary. Just like how the meeka was to the Indians. wat was tat. their most holy place and the meekas got scare  and thought they were doing black magic and open fire and killed all those innocent ppl. women and children's.... My history is a bit cloudy.  You ppl are funny. But it makes for a good GPA. At how smart some HmnG are.
All i know is wen we die.. It's Game Over..

[Believe_N_Me]

Wat a threat.. HOLY SPIRIT of Mary. Just like how the meeka was to the Indians. wat was tat. their most holy place and the meekas got scare  and thought they were doing black magic and open fire and killed all those innocent ppl. women and children's.... My history is a bit cloudy.  You ppl are funny. But it makes for a good GPA. At how smart some HmnG are.
All i know is wen we die.. It's Game Over..

Christianity actually has a lot of influence in western culture so it surprises me to hear Hmong atheists all riled up over it, especially since most Hmong atheists consider themselves progressive and proponents of American culture. Sometimes I feel like they're only against Christianity because in the last decades American pop culture has really turned against religion and the church. If Americans, particularly Liberals, weren't so bent up on waging a war on the church I don't even believe these Hmong atheists would bat an eyelash.

It seems that the Hmong atheist doesn't feel threatened because they assume that these next generations of Hmong are all going to be Americanized so Shamanism will just die out without them having to do any work. We all know that part of practicing Shamanism means being fluent in Hmong to perform the chants involved, and it also takes knowing all the parts. Most kids these days don't even speak Hmong much less understand the parts involved in Shamanistic ceremonies. While the Hmong atheist might have their wish come true, they'll have to battle the church because those same non-speaking Hmong kids are more likely to convert to Christianity. That must be where the real fear comes in for Hmong atheists.

[saki saki]

Since I'm too LAZY to look up the meaning of atheists.
Could you do me the honor and tell me what that word means???

Remember what Mofasa said to Simba?? Remember who you are!!!!! You're still the color of HmnG. HEEhee

[Believe_N_Me]

Since I'm too LAZY to look up the meaning of atheists.
Could you do me the honor and tell me what that word means???

Remember what Mofasa said to Simba?? Remember who you are!!!!! You're still the color of HmnG. HEEhee

An atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in gods or a God. We know this does not include someone who observes Shamanism because the Hmong do very much believe in a creator of life and the natural world as we understand it.

The Hmong atheist is very funny to me though because if they stand by their logic then Shamanism cannot be possible, yet won't speak against it. However, they heavily criticize Christianity even though everything they follow is heavily rooted in a white, Christian culture. 

[saki saki]

So let ask you another question.
When you are @ church and listening to the pastor preach on the Podium, what do you learn from it??

[Believe_N_Me]

So let ask you another question.
When you are @ church and listening to the pastor preach on the Podium, what do you learn from it??

What does this have to do with my posts or even the thread? If you simply can't provide answers to the OP or comment why Shamanism isn't alarming to the Hmong atheist (as it should), then take your anti-Christian hate elsewhere. 

[Reporter]

I have debated against Hmong Shamanists on this website for quite awhile. Almost none of them can bring a good philosophical evidence to prove their logic is true. Also, about all of the truths in Shamanism are relative since there is no God in that realm. It all goes back to Buddhism where who is the mediator that will send them to Heaven or Hell. Some of this beliefs comes from China since I know that FACT that in the ancient times, all Chinese and other asians were pagans. Therefore, if there are other Shamanists who would stand and fight for their belief, I would like to see your philosophical evidence to disprove Christianity by its doctrine, not by the Christians and their behavior.

I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?

[Believe_N_Me]

I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?

Traditional Hmong religion is a combination of different spiritual beliefs. Shamanism is the healing practice, animism sort or provides structure for morality, and then there is ancestral worship. But Shamanism is more than just healing. There's a complex structure to it as well. Just ask those that heavily practice it. And I mean the ones that hang up the xwmkab in the house, the ones that sau sub annually, and so on so forth. It has to do with bringing fortune into the family while driving out the bad.

My husband and I were discussing this a few days ago and my question was is it practical to be Americanized while practicing Shamanism? What I meant by this is that eventually the younger Hmong are going to stop performing marriage and funeral rites the traditional way among other traditional practices associated with Shamanism. For example, they're not going to know how to lwm qaib when they bring their new bride into the house. But let's say they still hang xwmkab because they consider themselves Shamanistic. What are the consequences?

Shamanism is believed to be a very powerful spiritual belief. Those who do not practice it correctly are bound to find themselves in conflict not only with the spiritual realm but even in the earthly realm. You can't just hang up xwmkab in the house and consider it a done deal. That's not how Shamanism works. So for those who think they can slip by being Shamanistic but not do the work, they will be in for a surprise.

[Reporter]

Sure, there are tiny elements of shamanism that mixes with animism and ancestor-worshiping. But what do the other two have that's religion-related that shamanism doesn't? Can anyone just pray to Siv Yis for either punishment or help? No. Siv Yis actually selects a particular group for his cult.  Unless you are in the cult and picked by him, you have no chance of communicating with him. But you can communicate with the spirits of the gulleys and your ancestors without being picked. That's like praying to God in Chriatianity or to Allah in Muslim, etc. God works on both the living and the dead. Siv Yis works against only the devil, not against a bad living human...Hm...s omething's missing in him here.

Traditional Hmong religion is a combination of different spiritual beliefs. Shamanism is the healing practice, animism sort or provides structure for morality, and then there is ancestral worship. But Shamanism is more than just healing. There's a complex structure to it as well. Just ask those that heavily practice it. And I mean the ones that hang up the xwmkab in the house, the ones that sau sub annually, and so on so forth. It has to do with bringing fortune into the family while driving out the bad.

My husband and I were discussing this a few days ago and my question was is it practical to be Americanized while practicing Shamanism? What I meant by this is that eventually the younger Hmong are going to stop performing marriage and funeral rites the traditional way among other traditional practices associated with Shamanism. For example, they're not going to know how to lwm qaib when they bring their new bride into the house. But let's say they still hang xwmkab because they consider themselves Shamanistic. What are the consequences?

Shamanism is believed to be a very powerful spiritual belief. Those who do not practice it correctly are bound to find themselves in conflict not only with the spiritual realm but even in the earthly realm. You can't just hang up xwmkab in the house and consider it a done deal. That's not how Shamanism works. So for those who think they can slip by being Shamanistic but not do the work, they will be in for a surprise.

[hnubqub]

(too many books!)  but this is one that's on my radar, one that I would read (no audiobook).  every Hmong person should read this.  Wade Davis is pretty awesome.

TAL and BNM, if you truly are interested in the questions you ask, I hope that you check out this book.  And let us know what you think.

http://www.amazon.com/Wayfinders-Ancient-Wisdom-Matters-Lecture/dp/0887847668