Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?

[joot]

I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?

Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice. 

[hnubqub]

Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice.

First, I want to say his thread is a great conversation, an important one.  There is a lot of confusion with this subject because people are debating from different planes.  Not only that, they are often confused about what is culture and what is religion.  I'm no anthropologist, but my take is this: Shamanism has deep roots in culture. It's organic and comes from a people's adaptation to their environment.  It's an accepted way of doing things (wedding, funerals) with stories behind them.  These stories are not only the voice of our people, but they are the building blocks of culture and identity. 

Christianity (which used to be Jewish stories and culture) has been processed, packaged, and divorced from the Jews.  The difference is eating rice from the straw vs eating rice cereal from a box.  Except in this case, you're not even eating rice, your own plant anymore.  You're eating from a different culture, like wheat.  You're eating bread.  Wonder bread.

Now on a different plane of debate, the scientific one of whether shaman and Christian stories are true.  No.  They would not pass the scientific method.  But no scientist would even bother putting these stories through the scientific method because these stories are not about scientific truth.  They're about humanity. 

[hnubqub]

Wade Davis.  This guy is the real deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHo1untn1zI

[saki saki]

I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?

You just hit the nail on the head.. i tink that wat I'm suppose to say Rite???

[saki saki]

First, I want to say his thread is a great conversation, an important one.  There is a lot of confusion with this subject because people are debating from different planes.  Not only that, they are often confused about what is culture and what is religion.  I'm no anthropologist, but my take is this: Shamanism has deep roots in culture. It's organic and comes from a people's adaptation to their environment.  It's an accepted way of doing things (wedding, funerals) with stories behind them.  These stories are not only the voice of our people, but they are the building blocks of culture and identity. 

Christianity (which used to be Jewish stories and culture) has been processed, packaged, and divorced from the Jews.  The difference is eating rice from the straw vs eating rice cereal from a box.  Except in this case, you're not even eating rice, your own plant anymore.  You're eating from a different culture, like wheat.  You're eating bread.  Wonder bread.

Now on a different plane of debate, the scientific one of whether shaman and Christian stories are true.  No.  They would not pass the scientific method.  But no scientist would even bother putting these stories through the scientific method because these stories are not about scientific truth.  They're about humanity. 

Best interpretation I've heard through out this strange thread.

[saki saki]

What does this have to do with my posts or even the thread? If you simply can't provide answers to the OP or comment why Shamanism isn't alarming to the Hmong atheist (as it should), then take your anti-Christian hate elsewhere. 

Not that I'm hating the Christian nor am I an anti-christ...People who goes to chruch and claims that they know GOD... In Truth is we all don't know GOD.. What he has planned for us. But When people talk all this and that about what they know about Christ, because they really don't know anything but run their mouth like they know all too much.. to hide their small mind.

I don't really think that there is such a word in the HmnG language about HmnG Atheist.... that word came from the Ameeks text...

[saki saki]

To explain the trinity is simple. By comparing it, water has 3 distinction; gas, liquid, and solid. The truth is, God is like that. He is the son, the father, and the holy spirit.

Exactly... So 2+2 can't be 4..hehehe...

[Believe_N_Me]

Not that I'm hating the Christian nor am I an anti-christ...People who goes to chruch and claims that they know GOD... In Truth is we all don't know GOD.. What he has planned for us. But When people talk all this and that about what they know about Christ, because they really don't know anything but run their mouth like they know all too much.. to hide their small mind.

I don't really think that there is such a word in the HmnG language about HmnG Atheist.... that word came from the Ameeks text...

I'm not here to attack Shamanism but rather here to ask Hmong atheists why they hold a double standard when it's actually Shamanism that has shaped the Hmong's way of life and values. This way of life actually contradicts everything they believe in such as Women's Rights, Gay Rights, marriage within same clan name, etc.

My conclusion is that many of these Hmong atheists and white wannabes know shiit about their own Hmong culture and belief system. Even Hmong Shamanism who are for the causes that I mentioned should be against their own religion. How can you be Shamanistic and for "Women's Rights?" How can you be Shamanistic and for marriage within same clan? How can you be Shamanistic and Pro-Choice? The  Hmong believe so heavily in karma and curses. In fact, they deeply-rooted in Animism is the belief that EVERYTHING has a spirit/soul. So to claim that a fetus doesn't have one goes against traditional Hmong beliefs. So before these people start attacking Christianity, they need to take a look at the religion they're practicing and get educated about it. Just because Shamanism doesn't rally together to create a political voice does NOT mean they don't have their own teachings. Young people nowadays are just too ignorant to know what they are.

[Believe_N_Me]

Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice. 

joot,

They don't hold the same standards because they don't know shiit about Shamanism to really know what it's all about. If they actually educated themselves and understood that it's more than just "healing", they would be so against it. They wonder why their parents' generation thinks so differently than from them? Duh, it's because their parents' generation are fully Shamanistic. There are values and teachings with the territory as well, maybe not taught in a church like Christianity but trust me, there are.

[Reporter]

Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice. 

Duh, re-read my statements.  Just because something is spiritual or psychological doesn't mean it's a religion.

People who are going to talk about religion must first know what it is. Obviously, many haven't paid attention to what it is but just takes things how they feel like.

[Reporter]

joot,

They don't hold the same standards because they don't know shiit about Shamanism to really know what it's all about. If they actually educated themselves and understood that it's more than just "healing", they would be so against it. They wonder why their parents' generation thinks so differently than from them? Duh, it's because their parents' generation are fully Shamanistic. There are values and teachings with the territory as well, maybe not taught in a church like Christianity but trust me, there are.

Duh.  We are Hmong. We know the Hmong traditions--past and present and even future and those on the side, too.

So, an American psychologist is a religious figure then. She can heal spiritually, too.

First question for you two--BNM and Joot--is what is religion? And second is: how does shamanism fit into that definition while animism and ancestor-worshiping may or may not?

Good luck!

[Believe_N_Me]

Duh.  We are Hmong. We know the Hmong traditions--past and present and even future and those on the side, too.

So, an American psychologist is a religious figure then. She can heal spiritually, too.

First question for you two--BNM and Joot--is what is religion? And second is: how does shamanism fit into that definition while animism and ancestor-worshiping may or may not?

Good luck!

Shamanism is a religion because it umbrellas a variety of spiritual practices and beliefs (animism, ancestral worship, etc.). Just because it isn't an "organized" religion or considered one of the world's major modern religion doesn't mean it isn't one.

[Reporter]

Interesting. I appreciate the elaborate explanations.

LOL! Let me add to this pagan guy.

Reporter, shaman has no foundation or any organized doctrine ever since it was practice in the stone age. Look man, we are living in a modern era and the only religion that outlasted than your religion's pop. is Monotheism, Buddhism, and Atheism. It's sad to see that your people aren't converting as much people as the Christians since Shamanism doesn't teach that. Also, shamanism doesn't teach the origin of life. In Christianity, it teaches genesis of how the universe came to be. As a pagan like you, you have to believe that the world isn't round since in the book of Job, God declares that the world is round, flying in thin air without anyone to hold the planet. What this means is that Earth is floating in thin air in space because of gravity. It's moving on its own course. As for a pagan talker, I see no evidence except fallacies that contradicts science and Christianity. Therefore, that's one fallacy.

As for philosophy, it doesn't hold much on good logic either. In fact, everything in shamanism is relative, not objective. Therefore, there is no point of being a good or a bad person. In fact, you can just do nothing like Patrick Star, standing at his house for 5 hrs before going home. This is how I see in relativism is by doing completely nothing like a statue. As for the shamanist who performs the healers are a bunch of conners nowadays who tries to cure cancer by extorting their patience with a lot of money to perform their rituals. As for God, he says this, "If a man is sick in a natural way, take him to the doctor. But if the man is posses, take him to Me." As your religion teaches, I heard a lot of shaman people say that they worship the devil rather than God. Majority would rather go to hell because it is funner down there since there are no rules about having polygamy or raping. It's a sad truth about that since this is WHAT I SEE in Hmong people and other asians as well. If they really want to go to hell, why are they trying to do good deeds in life? By the logic of understanding shamanism, it's nothing more but a confusion that tries to confuse people to believe in a strange way. If shamanism does teach morality, where in what book that says in ANY textbook that it teaches morality from A to Z?

[joot]

Let me make it simple:  Religion is a belief system.  Shamanism is a practice like you said, BUT it is a practice also with a belief system.  Does it not?  Religion does not necessarily have to have God in it.  All forms of shamanism share some basic beliefs.  We are not debating the definition of shamanism.  We are debating whether shamanism also incorporates a belief system in its practice and it does...   

Take away the belief system from shamanism and what we have is just some dude performing a circus act...

[Reporter]

Shamanism is a religion because it umbrellas a variety of spiritual practices and beliefs (animism, ancestral worship, etc.). Just because it isn't an "organized" religion or considered one of the world's major modern religion doesn't mean it isn't one.

Hm...