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Author Topic: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num  (Read 2197 times)

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Offline yuknowthat

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Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« on: December 27, 2013, 04:17:41 AM »
Can somebody teach us how to say those words when Txij Ncig and Tiam cov tub qav tub num, txiv qeej txiv nruas, thawj kav xwm etc..?

Certain community are small. Never know when one would need urgent help on this part.



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Offline HmongSandal

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 05:19:43 PM »
I know how to say those ritual parts of each role, but it's not like remembering ABC. It's almost like reading a book and remembering parts of it, and learn as you go. As you go, you hear people say it and you take some of their words they use in their role to connect with yours. Cannot be learned as fast as URGENT. Months or years.. saddens me that young people these days don't want to learn anymore. Who would do it when we older generations die off? Are they going to rap and sing? LOL inside joke.  :2funny:



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Offline yuknowthat

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 10:24:25 AM »
I know how to say those ritual parts of each role, but it's not like remembering ABC. It's almost like reading a book and remembering parts of it, and learn as you go. As you go, you hear people say it and you take some of their words they use in their role to connect with yours. Cannot be learned as fast as URGENT. Months or years.. saddens me that young people these days don't want to learn anymore. Who would do it when we older generations die off? Are they going to rap and sing? LOL inside joke.  :2funny:
well what is the respectful way to say to each person took those roles..



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Offline chidorix0x

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2014, 06:47:12 PM »
HmongSandal is correct.  These ritual practices (sayings/phrases) is not something one can easily learn overnight, or even within a week or a month -- unless you are really gifted (as in photographic memory).  The good part/news, for me, is that once you learn/memorize them, they are quite fun/easy to say, because it/they are poetry more or less.  (Not the joyful and lovey-dovey kind unfortunately, but still fun nevertheless.)

I apprenticed for over a year, and I can honestly say, though I know most of it (Txhij Ncig, Txhem Tshwj) among other things (cov zaj); I have not used it to date as there are others who are favored to do this.  But I am confident, once given the chance, I will be able to do this.

yuknowthat -- if you want to learn, you have to find a "xib fwb".  If you take bits and pieces from others, simply by listening to them -- as HmongSandal suggested, and form your own verbiage/phrases/saying, in all likelihood it will not make sense, or be consistent.  More importantly, those who know will know you are a FRAUD, though they won't say it to your face.  That is just the etiquette.  (That said, it does not mean once you have learned this well, that you cannot add or delete to improve your verbiage/phrases.  You will know what I mean by this when/if you get there -- to that point.)

And each verbiage/saying is different for each individual/group:  Thawj Xyom Cuab, Cuab Tsav, Txiv Taw Kev, Kav Xwm, Txiv Qeej, Tshwj Kav, Niam Ua Mov for each part, meaning "Txhij Ncig" and "Txhem Tshwj".  Those two parts alone total fourteen (14) different verbiage/phrases one has to learn, memorize, and say.

Here ... I will give you a snip-pit of a few:

Rau sawv daws -- ... Peb tsis pom qab vam khom lub dag lub zog, peb thiaj vam nej sawv daws lub dag lub zog.  Yog lid nod, leej uas peb thov ua Thawj Xyom Cuab -- peb yuav hu koj ua Thawj Xyom Cuab nod nawb.  Koj txhob tu siab mog.  Leej uas peb thov koj ua Txiv Cuab Tsav -- peb yuav hu koj ua Txiv Cuab Tsav nod nawb.  Koj txhob tu siab mog

Rau Txhij Ncig -- ... Hnub nod, Tsev Vaj Lig Nqis yuav qaug.  Plaub xo ncej ntug nqes yuav ntaus.  Tsev Vaj Lig Nqis yuav ntuag.  Plaub xo ncej ntug ces yuav muaj.  Plaub xo ncej ntug ntxhov hnyos puav tam lid huab tsuj sawv npog ntuj.  Huab dub sawv npog hnub.  Huab ci sawv npog hli -- tsaus ntuj lis ntid puav tam lid muab ntaub maj rov raus nkaj.

Rau Txiv Taw Kev --  ...  Yuav vam khom koj ua twb zoo taw kab kom ncaj kab, kom peb “e.g., niam” ncig yeev mus txog ntuj sua teb tom qab.  Yuav vam khom koj ua twb zoo taw kev kom ncaj kev, kom peb niam ncig yeev mus txog ntuj sua teb rov tom peg.



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Offline chidorix0x

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2014, 06:49:42 PM »
well what is the respectful way to say to each person took those roles..

The "Right Way -- as in according to tradition".  This is the most respected/accepted way.



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Offline yuknowthat

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 01:33:51 AM »
So tiam mej koob and txiv/niam neeb should be the same too right? Yet just a little tweak of saying here and there for each specific roles...

Sometimes the main coj noj coj ua speaks too fast.. kuv khaws tau ob peb los xwb..

A little part ive always heard is.."yog hnub twg (e.g. the one what helped) muaj tub muaj nyab muaj ntxhais quas,  koj vam txog peb tej txiv tub lossis peb yuav nqi toj nqi thaug tuaj pab, koj vam tsis txog peb tej txiv tub los cias li..



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Offline chidorix0x

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2014, 06:19:04 PM »
So tiam mej koob and txiv/niam neeb should be the same too right? Yet just a little tweak of saying here and there for each specific roles...

Sometimes the main coj noj coj ua speaks too fast.. kuv khaws tau ob peb los xwb..

A little part ive always heard is.."yog hnub twg (e.g. the one what helped) muaj tub muaj nyab muaj ntxhais quas,  koj vam txog peb tej txiv tub lossis peb yuav nqi toj nqi thaug tuaj pab, koj vam tsis txog peb tej txiv tub los cias li..

No!  (And arguably "wrong", as they are different.  At least from my own personal experiences (firsthand accounts) for over 30+ years.)

Txiv Neeb Txiv Yaig muaj nws lus hais ntaum tiam.  (As a matter of fact, what you said, I have never heard anyone say "thaum tiam Txiv Neeb Txiv Yaig".  Also, fyi, regardless if the shaman is a female;  one should always refer to her (him) as "Txiv Neeb Txiv Yaig".  That is proper etiquette, and is always the norm.)

Lastly, that line "koj hnov lawd hais thaum tiam neeg ...", I have only heard it used within "Kab Tshoob Kev Kos" and "Kab Ke Pam Tuag" -- not when "tiam neeb".  (That is not to say it cannot be used, or probably was not/never used.  But it is wrong in my honest opinion, and according to Hmong practice, but no one is going to say it to your face if you do use it.  Learn the customs and you will know/realize the proper etiquettes yourself.)

Here is the norm (an example) I have always heard when "tiam neeb":
Ua tsaug nawb, koj Txiv Neeb Txiv Yaig.  Hnub no vam vam koj tuaj ua neeb ua yaig kho peb "niam" kom nyob ntshiab li dej dawb li txhuv, kom tsis muaj mob muaj nkeeg.  Yog peb txiv tub txawj ua lub neej ces yuav muaj ib pib zoo dej cawv rau koj tuaj, ib phaj zoo rawg ntxuag rau koj yuaj.  Peb txiv tub tsis txawj ua lub neej, tsis muaj ib pib zoo khob cawv rau koj tuaj, ib tug zoo ntxuag rau koj yuaj, tsuas muab ib lo lus ua koj tsaug xwb los koj txhob tu siab. (Ces pe 1 pe, ces mam hais rau "Neeb Niam Neeb Txi ...), which is basically the same, but addressing the spirits.)

***  Once you/one has this basis, then you/one can add or revise it with other verbiage/tweaks as needed, or what you feel is best to your liking. 


« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 06:24:08 PM by chidorix0x »

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Offline yuknowthat

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 10:31:17 PM »
 ;D ua tsaug! Thats what I was looking for.. like said.. some folks speaks it too fast and the other one that sat on the table is too disrespectful to keep quiet..



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Offline chidorix0x

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Re: Txij Ncig thiab Tiam Tub Qav Tub Num
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2014, 04:11:56 AM »
;D ua tsaug! Thats what I was looking for.. like said.. some folks speaks it too fast and the other one that sat on the table is too disrespectful to keep quiet..

No prob.

Don't forget to "ua tsaug rau tus Saib Neeb", aka, the shaman's assistant.  The phrase/saying is pretty much the same, with some minor tweaks here and there, so that it is applicable towards that role.

Lastly, "ces yog cov Txheej Txheem saum lub rooj noj mov -- yog 4-6 tus cawv chiv rau sawv daws haus", which I won't elaborate on as it is pretty straight forward.



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