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Author Topic: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!  (Read 24730 times)

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Offline VillainousHero

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2014, 10:14:41 AM »
That's why I said the scope of each team changes and focusing solely on a 6 person indoor rules has very little to do with outdoor game rules or different amount of players on team that applies different rules and different formats of 2/3 or 3/5 sets per game.  No where did I say one is inferior in comparison to another, they are just differences.  I will say that certain rules limits better ball handlers from utilizing their skills, but those are rules so play by those competition rules.  Since Hmong vball rules are adopted mostly from middle/high school rules...to say that on a competitive ruling level...it's fair as competitively dumb down.  Historically some of those rules were in fact vball rules for old men...but don't play by a rule that was like nearly 100 yrs old, that nobody else in the world is still playing by...except for vball practice to enhance skills for the current competitive game (or we are just too old to play it so we have old men rules - LOL).

If we had to examine some of the short comings of old school Hmong volleyball rules...it has more perceived shortcomings than merits.  Probably different for different parts of the country for us Hmong as well.

Blocking allowed on serve...That's really old school rule...that maybe they should just allow spiking on serve.
Bumping only on serve/spike...if one can cleanly overhand pass, let them...not every serve or spike is coming fast and some people just have stronger fingers than others.  Why limit better players with better ball handling skills?  Historically bumping was developed by digging the ball with the forearms rather overhand playing it.
Carrying ball on set...Hmong sets...should never drop below the nose of the player, in fact it shouldn't even drop below the eye level (but eyes and nose is pretty level).  If I drop the set below my nose...I'm the world's best setter like everyone else who's the world's best setter.  Few people actually will have that setter's soft touch.  For the longest time...they didn't allow one handed sets....then during one J4 tourney...they suddenly say it's not against the rules.  Geez I wonder who won that tournament?
Tip must past 10 feet line...that's just plain ridiculous rule.  Why give short players a chance?  Furthermore (no offense) but most Hmong tips are actually carries with the thumb.  If someone can one finger spike straight down two feet, just accept defeat.
Touching center line...when a setter just touches the center line without even a chance to set the ball, it's already a point to other team/side out.  Another ridiculous rule, but very good for safety of players.
Let Serve...The ball is not playable when it touches the net on the serve.  If that's the case, make it definitive that all ball touching net are dead plays: no passing into net, no spikes ever touching net, and no blocked balls touching net.  It would be a competition of some of the most clean ball handling skills.  Took vball nearly 100 years to see how limited that rule is.
Side out and win by 2...I love side out.  But competitively for time constraint, no one needs to have hours upon hours of a single set on deuce point.  (No where in the officiated rules is there a point cap.  Except that I've seen some adopt a point cap rule for their tournament house rules where they usually cap the third set of 2/3 format.)  Took me a long time to see the merits of Rally Scoring, but I accept rally score point system now.  Win by two points is still stupid...reall y should just cap it no more than five times.


Rotation...has always been at the core of volleyball.  However it is a server rotation and never really about team rotation.  Historically the root of rotation is for service only...similar like in baseball batting order.  To help keep track of service rotation...wel l it just made sense for players on the floor to rotate.  Thus the system of positions kind of became a sensible plain method to adopt.  That's why is is called Server Rotation for score tracking purpose.

Personally I would love to see a Hmong two or three team tournament...W hen you look at two player team...if forces both players to be complete players.  Complete players really have no need to rotate...thus essentially ridding of the rotation.  Three player team...allows one to be a stronger setter, along with other strategies. 

If one really wants a true complete player...there should be a single's volleyball.  I mean with the ability to jump and air juggle the ball all in midair and laying down a spike...It only says that the most talented of player can only compete in such a level.  Since most people don't ever train to air juggle the ball, since it's against the current officiated rule, we aren't going to see this type of high skill level in competition form.

As you can tell...I'm pretty passionate about volleyball...L OL  O0  I can't believe I've forgotten some pretty important volleyball lingo...that's how long I haven't played volleyball.  And the hardest thing about volleyball isn't even playing it.  It's reffing it, with the officiated rules.  Good thing there's scorekeeper, rotation tracker, line judges, and second/down ref.  A really good up/first ref...will learn to trust his fellow reffing team, instead of overruling them.  I really should go and earn my reffing card and kick some paid off refs.



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Offline thePoster

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2014, 12:16:38 PM »
Rules rules rules....

Since we are in this topic...

When I was younger, I had neighbors who played competitive vball but they never really had a team, they would just go whoever asked them.  They were pretty good too. Anyways I'd go over on the weekends and play with them for fun.

The rules we'd play with, and I'm assuming they are the same in tournaments becuase this was how we were playing for fun but for practice  for them. 

Net balls don't count.
You still have to roll but once the ball is served you can change positions.
Back line can't hit but they can come in And jump from out of bounds and hit the 3 ball( I think that's what it's called)
Middle can hit the one ball.
No kick balls
Oversets don't count


That's all I can remember, it was years ago


There was this one guy we use to play for fun with, he said when he use to train kids how to receive, he'd have just two guys back line and one setter agianst a whole team, the setter wouldn't block and they just have to try to get everything...

The neighbor showed us a training method of how to get more up...in thirty days we should have added 30 more inches to our vertical..  I don't know if that is physically possible.  I already have like a 2 feet vertical, I don't know if a 54 inch vertical is possible..




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I went through all 15k posts and those 2 quotes I found were the only ones so I guess that would make it "everytime".  Feel free to go through all 15k posts and verify by quoting them all.  You need to quote them all to verifying prove "everytime".   Please verify that Im wrong.

Offline VillainousHero

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2014, 01:07:25 PM »
It's very hard for most people to get past 30" vertical.  Very few can hit 36" vertical or more.

If net is set at 8' height and net is 3' in width, bottom of net would be 5' in height.  Hmong nets tend to be set about 7'6" so about 6" inches lower in most cases.  Most guys are over 5' in height let's just say average 5'6" per say.  Most guys standing reach is just a bit over 7' so that's why many can measure height of net with their hand reach with like one or two squares (4" squares).  I've know a few tall white guys who's got a standing reach of practically 9' high.  He only needs to jump a tad few inches higher than 12" to dunk the basketball.  If he jumped 24"  He'd be slam dunking all day long.

I know by Hmong rules...we do cheat with backrow jumps from out of bounds of the court.  Technically the rule of back row attack 10 feet line extends to outside of the bounds of the court, as with the center line also.  It's just that most don't even know the technicality of that rule and just then say the lines only count inside of the court, so then we just all play by those rules.

My standing long jump cleared over 8' and that was back in 6th grade.  So if I actually put a little foward momentum to my jump...I can easily jump from back row behind 10 feet line and land pretty close to center line.  If I'm not careful...I would cross center line easily if I put too much forward momentum into my jump.



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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2014, 01:37:39 PM »
You actually wrote, "That makes Hmong volleyball more incomplete and more incompetent as players."  That's virtually saying inferior.  Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but "incomplete" and "incompetent" are adjectives for inferior. 

Anyways, I view the rules like all the rules to almost all games.  The NBA has a three point line, and normal baskets count as two, and there is a time limit.  However, most pickup games are by ones with a cap.  Even if the three point is in play, it counts as 2, not 3.  This doesn't mean that the pickup games rules are incomplete or incompetent.  There are reasons to like these rules.  Similarly, there are reasons to like the old volleyball rules just as much as the new rules. 

As for the rules...

I've never seen anyone allowed to block the serve. 

I agree with change of passing rules for serves and spikes.  However, that Hmong rule made me a better passer.  Even in the older western rules, the player's hands must be together whether it was overhand or underhand.  The rule has been lifted to virtually "anything goes."  I've seen people get away with double hits...I have gotten away with double hits.  I just smiled because I knew I wouldn't have gotten away with that a few years ago. 

I've seen Hmong setters stop the ball and throw it back up.  It's the And1 of volleyball. 

I don't have too much of a hard time adjusting to tip rules.  I don't mind either way.

I don't mind the centerline rule.  Safety.  Too many people have rolled their ankles.

I dislike that let serves are legal.  No other net sport allows lets on serve.  Tennis.  Ping Pong.  Badminton.  Serves, unlike other hits in the game, are in complete control of the player.  Thus, it should be a clean hit.  New school players will disagree, but oh well.  You're not going to change my mind on this one. 

I like the win by 2 rule.  New school players probably don't like this one; they probably also like rally scoring too.  For a lot of old school players, it wasn't about tournaments.  Long summer days into the night at the park.  King of the Court system.  Losers buy winners drinks.  So, when there was a tournament, you go to see who was the best of that style.  I don't mind it, but I'll understand if new school players don't follow it. 

I like old school rotation.  You're not going to convince of liking the libero.

A complete player doesn't mean singles.  It means the player has to take on more than just one responsibility .  It's not fair that a 7 footer is never forced to play the backrow, or a 5 foot libero never has to play the front.  Personally, i feel the 7 footer better learn to pass and the 5 footer better learn to jump. 

It's a different game now.  Not all new things are better...AKA, blocks count as a hit?   :idiot2:



That's why I said the scope of each team changes and focusing solely on a 6 person indoor rules has very little to do with outdoor game rules or different amount of players on team that applies different rules and different formats of 2/3 or 3/5 sets per game.  No where did I say one is inferior in comparison to another, they are just differences.  I will say that certain rules limits better ball handlers from utilizing their skills, but those are rules so play by those competition rules.  Since Hmong vball rules are adopted mostly from middle/high school rules...to say that on a competitive ruling level...it's fair as competitively dumb down.  Historically some of those rules were in fact vball rules for old men...but don't play by a rule that was like nearly 100 yrs old, that nobody else in the world is still playing by...except for vball practice to enhance skills for the current competitive game (or we are just too old to play it so we have old men rules - LOL).

If we had to examine some of the short comings of old school Hmong volleyball rules...it has more perceived shortcomings than merits.  Probably different for different parts of the country for us Hmong as well.

Blocking allowed on serve...That's really old school rule...that maybe they should just allow spiking on serve.
Bumping only on serve/spike...if one can cleanly overhand pass, let them...not every serve or spike is coming fast and some people just have stronger fingers than others.  Why limit better players with better ball handling skills?  Historically bumping was developed by digging the ball with the forearms rather overhand playing it.
Carrying ball on set...Hmong sets...should never drop below the nose of the player, in fact it shouldn't even drop below the eye level (but eyes and nose is pretty level).  If I drop the set below my nose...I'm the world's best setter like everyone else who's the world's best setter.  Few people actually will have that setter's soft touch.  For the longest time...they didn't allow one handed sets....then during one J4 tourney...they suddenly say it's not against the rules.  Geez I wonder who won that tournament?
Tip must past 10 feet line...that's just plain ridiculous rule.  Why give short players a chance?  Furthermore (no offense) but most Hmong tips are actually carries with the thumb.  If someone can one finger spike straight down two feet, just accept defeat.
Touching center line...when a setter just touches the center line without even a chance to set the ball, it's already a point to other team/side out.  Another ridiculous rule, but very good for safety of players.
Let Serve...The ball is not playable when it touches the net on the serve.  If that's the case, make it definitive that all ball touching net are dead plays: no passing into net, no spikes ever touching net, and no blocked balls touching net.  It would be a competition of some of the most clean ball handling skills.  Took vball nearly 100 years to see how limited that rule is.
Side out and win by 2...I love side out.  But competitively for time constraint, no one needs to have hours upon hours of a single set on deuce point.  (No where in the officiated rules is there a point cap.  Except that I've seen some adopt a point cap rule for their tournament house rules where they usually cap the third set of 2/3 format.)  Took me a long time to see the merits of Rally Scoring, but I accept rally score point system now.  Win by two points is still stupid...reall y should just cap it no more than five times.


Rotation...has always been at the core of volleyball.  However it is a server rotation and never really about team rotation.  Historically the root of rotation is for service only...similar like in baseball batting order.  To help keep track of service rotation...wel l it just made sense for players on the floor to rotate.  Thus the system of positions kind of became a sensible plain method to adopt.  That's why is is called Server Rotation for score tracking purpose.

Personally I would love to see a Hmong two or three team tournament...W hen you look at two player team...if forces both players to be complete players.  Complete players really have no need to rotate...thus essentially ridding of the rotation.  Three player team...allows one to be a stronger setter, along with other strategies. 

If one really wants a true complete player...there should be a single's volleyball.  I mean with the ability to jump and air juggle the ball all in midair and laying down a spike...It only says that the most talented of player can only compete in such a level.  Since most people don't ever train to air juggle the ball, since it's against the current officiated rule, we aren't going to see this type of high skill level in competition form.

As you can tell...I'm pretty passionate about volleyball...L OL  O0  I can't believe I've forgotten some pretty important volleyball lingo...that's how long I haven't played volleyball.  And the hardest thing about volleyball isn't even playing it.  It's reffing it, with the officiated rules.  Good thing there's scorekeeper, rotation tracker, line judges, and second/down ref.  A really good up/first ref...will learn to trust his fellow reffing team, instead of overruling them.  I really should go and earn my reffing card and kick some paid off refs.



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Offline dianahmuas

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2014, 02:41:32 PM »
so volleyball is becoming like kob taub???... ;D ;D ;D

soon enough here we'll be seeing these players do jet li flying kicks and punches... :D :D :D



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Offline VillainousHero

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2014, 03:23:15 PM »
I played Hmong rules and thought I was a better player than most until I stepped out of it.  Then learn the real officiated rules and played some real officiated rules and can definitively say without a doubt that old school Hmong rules are really incomplete.  One cannot compete higher than High School volleyball if your skills are solely based off of that level of play.  If one cannot compete by other rules and stick solely only to a few certain rules, then it makes that person more incompetent as a player.  If you read it as inferior, then let say that Hmong rules makes inferior players just to humor us.  No Hmong player could just step into NCAA, USAV, or FIVB and compete when your actual technical playing skills are only still limited to High School level at best.  Well it was really a height sport and we were all just too short.

Sure my bump skills was better than most when I played by NCAA rules or USAV or FIVB formates...but compared to Beach (AVP) them guys are masters at digging.  I was outclassed the moment I stepped onto the beach court.

If I Hmong overhand set the ball...I'll be killed in Beach (AVP)...but maybe just benched in NCAA, USAV, FIVB.  I only became a better setter, or should I say learn real setting form, after I left Hmong rules.

Some of the current officiate rules have a very technical merit behind them...just because referees aren't always players of the game, as most aren't, they can't be definitively make the correct call.  They have to have the technical rule in word to make the call.  Aside from that, the hand is always faster than the eye.  I learned from a great Serbian coach that faster eye is more important than just a good player ball handling skills.  I'd bet he make an awesome ref because he knew exactly what to look for...but that's why he's a coach.

There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand.  That's just something someone made up and those who don't know the rule, just believed it.  (I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref who's been in it for over 50 yrs over the word of some other volleyball player who's played the game for 50 yrs - just saying.)  And by Hmong rules...we believed it and learn to play by it.  I've never seen anyone reversed forearm pass outside of Hmong vball, except me.  Everybody just say...why don't you just overhand pass?  Duh!  It's not like the ball was fast.  Do I feel inferior, no.  Did I feel somewhat incompetent, yes.  Rule differences.  Furthermore in beach...learn the Gator Pass.  Yeah, not legal in Hmong rules since hands are apart...but one of the best technique to learn how to do it legally in one clean contact.  Now I could get away with an ugly Gator Pass on first contact or fast drive ball.  But it wasn't always so.

As it goes:  Was it a lift? No...Was it an illegal double contact? No...  Is the play dead?  No...keep playing.

I Buddha palm, Miyagi Karate Kid chop, and Soccer bicycle kick my volleyball, I just gotta work on my landing on the back flip.... :2funny:  without crossing the center line.   Yes I've been accused of illegal jump kicking the ball when I accused them of not being able to head butt the ball.  What can I say if the setter set the ball way short by two feet away and I'm already committed to my jump...and the only thing that could reach the ball was my foot in midair.  I think that was the first year they made rule changes and most of us didn't know it around 1990-94's or shortly after '94.  We all felt a bit stupid for arguing after we looked up the officiated rules, cuz we had booze to buy at stake there.  Well this was with meskas.  If I remember correctly, High School rules was still no ball contact below the waist line or some wording to that extent.  Yeah...hence the argument.  Major rule changes generally coincide with Olympic years...so must've been the 92-96 rule set.  Blahh I forget...it's been too long.  Just glad the Hmong people are beginning to drop some inferior rules...  :2funny:

Blocks do not count as one of the contact except in Beach format...unles s that has just changed recently and I haven't stayed up to date with latest rule set.



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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2014, 08:43:52 PM »
You are welcomed to like the new rules more.  A lot of people do.  However, that doesn't mean that the old rules, whether they are Hmong or western, are "incomplete" or "incompetent."  They are simply different games.  And1 vs. New NBA vs. Old NBA vs. Golden Age NBA.  Those are not really the same game.  You might as well be comparing two different sports. 

I have to disagree with your assessment of players.  There is no reason that a person can't play both rules.  They might simply be more comfortable with one over another.  Also, it is unfair to compare NCAA players to pickup players.  NCAA players are picked around the country among the best players in the country.  Also, as difficult as it is for a Hmong person to come play NCAA, it will also be a challenge for a person playing NCAA rules to come play Hmong rules.  A better comparison would be comparing a Hmong player among other pickup players. 

You wrote, "There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."  Actually, you're mistaken.  It used to get called as a double hit.  Then, it became more lenient; as long as the reception was done in one motion.  Rule 9.2.3.2.  This is probably what you remember.  This rule specifically states that a player CAN double hit as long as it is one motion.  This rule was not always there.  Then again, as recently as 2012/2013, the rules were revised again with Rule 9.3.4.  This is pretty much telling players to keep the hands together for an overhand pass, or don't do an overhand pass.  Guess who doesn't like this new rule?...the new school players. 

Everyone is entitled to like whichever rules they want.  I see them as different, not necessarily better. 




I played Hmong rules and thought I was a better player than most until I stepped out of it.  Then learn the real officiated rules and played some real officiated rules and can definitively say without a doubt that old school Hmong rules are really incomplete.  One cannot compete higher than High School volleyball if your skills are solely based off of that level of play.  If one cannot compete by other rules and stick solely only to a few certain rules, then it makes that person more incompetent as a player.  If you read it as inferior, then let say that Hmong rules makes inferior players just to humor us.  No Hmong player could just step into NCAA, USAV, or FIVB and compete when your actual technical playing skills are only still limited to High School level at best.  Well it was really a height sport and we were all just too short.

Sure my bump skills was better than most when I played by NCAA rules or USAV or FIVB formates...but compared to Beach (AVP) them guys are masters at digging.  I was outclassed the moment I stepped onto the beach court.

If I Hmong overhand set the ball...I'll be killed in Beach (AVP)...but maybe just benched in NCAA, USAV, FIVB.  I only became a better setter, or should I say learn real setting form, after I left Hmong rules.

Some of the current officiate rules have a very technical merit behind them...just because referees aren't always players of the game, as most aren't, they can't be definitively make the correct call.  They have to have the technical rule in word to make the call.  Aside from that, the hand is always faster than the eye.  I learned from a great Serbian coach that faster eye is more important than just a good player ball handling skills.  I'd bet he make an awesome ref because he knew exactly what to look for...but that's why he's a coach.

There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand.  That's just something someone made up and those who don't know the rule, just believed it.  (I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref who's been in it for over 50 yrs over the word of some other volleyball player who's played the game for 50 yrs - just saying.)  And by Hmong rules...we believed it and learn to play by it.  I've never seen anyone reversed forearm pass outside of Hmong vball, except me.  Everybody just say...why don't you just overhand pass?  Duh!  It's not like the ball was fast.  Do I feel inferior, no.  Did I feel somewhat incompetent, yes.  Rule differences.  Furthermore in beach...learn the Gator Pass.  Yeah, not legal in Hmong rules since hands are apart...but one of the best technique to learn how to do it legally in one clean contact.  Now I could get away with an ugly Gator Pass on first contact or fast drive ball.  But it wasn't always so.

As it goes:  Was it a lift? No...Was it an illegal double contact? No...  Is the play dead?  No...keep playing.

I Buddha palm, Miyagi Karate Kid chop, and Soccer bicycle kick my volleyball, I just gotta work on my landing on the back flip.... :2funny:  without crossing the center line.   Yes I've been accused of illegal jump kicking the ball when I accused them of not being able to head butt the ball.  What can I say if the setter set the ball way short by two feet away and I'm already committed to my jump...and the only thing that could reach the ball was my foot in midair.  I think that was the first year they made rule changes and most of us didn't know it around 1990-94's or shortly after '94.  We all felt a bit stupid for arguing after we looked up the officiated rules, cuz we had booze to buy at stake there.  Well this was with meskas.  If I remember correctly, High School rules was still no ball contact below the waist line or some wording to that extent.  Yeah...hence the argument.  Major rule changes generally coincide with Olympic years...so must've been the 92-96 rule set.  Blahh I forget...it's been too long.  Just glad the Hmong people are beginning to drop some inferior rules...  :2funny:

Blocks do not count as one of the contact except in Beach format...unles s that has just changed recently and I haven't stayed up to date with latest rule set.



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Offline VillainousHero

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2014, 12:24:16 AM »
Sorry but your contradiction just simply doesn't stand...


Quote
There is no reason that a person can't play both rules
  You can't play two contradicting rules, period.  That's saying we allow kicking oh wait we don't allow kicking...so which is it?  Or one side does side out scoring and the other side does rally scoring...pick one.  Unless you mean I'm already living proof of it, since I went from Hmong rules, to NCAA, to USAV, to FIVB, and AVP Beach rules.  So I've basically played five different rules, but never together since they contradict on certain rules.

Quote
They are simply different games.  And1 vs. New NBA vs. Old NBA vs. Golden Age NBA
  I have no idea where you're going with this.  It's like NCAA D1, vs NCAA D2 vs NCAA D3 or something.  If you call it a different game...you are in the minority of opinion there.  Nobody is gonna play D1 format with 20 yrs old rule against another D1 format with up to date rules.  If one insists on playing 20 yrs old rule, then slap the label "incomplete" or "incompetent."  You can't cheat, period...too many officials watching.

Quote
Also, as difficult as it is for a Hmong person to come play NCAA, it will also be a challenge for a person playing NCAA rules to come play Hmong rules
Not really if Hmong rules were actually written and shared before playing.  Ever been to a practice where the coach says...no overhand passing on next scrimmage...yo u all need to work on your bumps?   Again trying to prove a point with cheating Hmong rules...oh wait if it was written down...then the cheating may actually not happens...wish ful thinking but Hmong rules and cheating players are just kind of in the same bag.


Quote
I have to disagree with your assessment of players
You disagree with my assessment of players is like saying you disagree with the assessment of players in NCAA, USAV, FIVB, AVP...And the rules are proof of it as well.  I didn't make these rules up nor did I assess their skill levels...They're done and "incomplete" and "incompetent" maybe just your nature to nag and try to disprove it as an opinion. I'm telling you facts of some things that can be comparable from player to referee to coach through the progression of volleyball skill levels.  You'll just don't go pro level from high school level.  And I don't know how to explain it any further unless someone has played by all the different levels of players, by the different levels of rules, and by seeing it from all three different pov's.  Players, coaches, and refs will always disagree on things, but when you've been in all three positions long enough...you will connect the dots of comparison.  High School/Hmong rules is really at the bottom of the competition skill levels.  If some vball player from a big10 D1 team comes out and say...High School (NFHS) is superior...the y may as well drop out of college right there.

Look at it this way

High School/Hmong rules: Amateur, intermediate, basic
NCAA rules: advance, Semi-Pro
USAV FIVB BEACH: Semi-Pro, Pro levels

The rules follows it, the underlying progression of skill levels...The more advance players they get more rules and more strategies to work with.  An amateur player to a Pro Beach player is "incompetent" to step onto the pro court level.  Don't get me wrong...one can be competent at their skills level, and still be incompetent to the next skill level.  The amateur player is "incomplete" since they've probably never obtained the skill level to fully play as a complete player in all aspect of serving, passing, setting, blocking, and spiking.  By now one can't cheat like how they do with Hmong rules.

"There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
Like I said not mistaken...I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref from the Pro levels who knows the other rules, over that of just some player whose only grounds are amateur rules (skill levels).  50 years is a lot of rule changes...

9.2.3.2 At the first hit of the team, the ball may
 contact various parts of the body con-
 secutively, provided that the contacts oc-
 cur during one action.

Quote
This rule specifically states that a player CAN double hit as long as it is one motion
  No one can double hit...double hit is two separate motions.  Don't twist the words.  To a ref, the ball may make multiple contacts.  Like I said...be a real ref by the rule.  You tell a good ref you double hit it...you just lost the rally.  You tell a bad ref you double hit it...well bad ref will probably say play on.  But we gonna have a real good corrective chat with that bad ref...later.  Again I'm not mistaken.

Quote
Everyone is entitled to like whichever rules they want.
  How can you state that?

No these rules are not just some simple self entitle want or don't want.  They are official.  If you can't play by those rules on those competition levels...you are then as "incomplete" and therefore "incompetent" on those higher levels.  It doesn't make you inferior...jus t haven't got there yet.  When are you gonna realize that I'm not limiting the scope to just Hmong volleyball rules, old school vs new school.  When the officiating rules are changing about every 4 yrs.  I believe 8 yrs for FIVB.  Old school is very old school.  And we're just throwing words around now... ;D

Again...I'm glad the Hmong volleyball is trying to catch up and adopt some of the more current official rules.



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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2014, 08:52:57 AM »
You misunderstand. 

A person can play both rules.  A person can play Hmong rules in Hmong games, and play NCAA rules at college, and beach at the beach.  The person can be pretty good at all of them.  Similarly, a person can be good at AND1 and still be good at organized ball too. 

Are you saying that you don't know the difference between AND1 and the NBA and typical basketball pickup rules?  These are not 20 year old rules.  These games are all currently being played. 

You got a problem with Hmong tournaments, but that doesn't mean that the western rules are better.  There are people out there who rather play with all the silly Hmong rules than allow let serves.  It's preference. 

Your assessment of players is wrong.  Are you saying that if Hmong people were playing with NCAA rules, they would be getting recruited?  Of course not.  Simply changing the rules doesn't make Hmong players D1 material.  Your logic doesn't add up.

You are using a definition to define a word.  Of course the professional rules are "professional."  If the Hmong tournaments were more popular, it would be the opposite.  It's all perspective. 

You are mistaken, and you don't realize it.  Double hits of any kind used to be illegal.  Rule 9.2.3.2 allowed certain double hits to be legal.  That rule was not always in place.  You probably don't remember a time when that wasn't true.  You said there was never a rule, but there was.  Before, double contact of any kind was considered a double hit.  Rule 9.2.3.2 changed that.  This isn't an opinion; it's a fact.

Everyone is entitled to like whatever rules they want.  You like Rule 9.2.3.2, but others don't.  What about the new Rule 9.3.4?  This rule makes your beloved rule obsolete.  9.3.4 is pretty much saying players shouldn't do open overhand passes.

You don't seem to understand that there are different versions of sports.  Pickup tennis.  They don't play pro rules.  Pickup basketball.  They don't play pro rules.  Ping Pong.  They don't play pro rules.  Why does volleyball have to only play by pro rules?       




Sorry but your contradiction just simply doesn't stand...

  You can't play two contradicting rules, period.  That's saying we allow kicking oh wait we don't allow kicking...so which is it?  Or one side does side out scoring and the other side does rally scoring...pick one.  Unless you mean I'm already living proof of it, since I went from Hmong rules, to NCAA, to USAV, to FIVB, and AVP Beach rules.  So I've basically played five different rules, but never together since they contradict on certain rules.
  I have no idea where you're going with this.  It's like NCAA D1, vs NCAA D2 vs NCAA D3 or something.  If you call it a different game...you are in the minority of opinion there.  Nobody is gonna play D1 format with 20 yrs old rule against another D1 format with up to date rules.  If one insists on playing 20 yrs old rule, then slap the label "incomplete" or "incompetent."  You can't cheat, period...too many officials watching.
Not really if Hmong rules were actually written and shared before playing.  Ever been to a practice where the coach says...no overhand passing on next scrimmage...yo u all need to work on your bumps?   Again trying to prove a point with cheating Hmong rules...oh wait if it was written down...then the cheating may actually not happens...wish ful thinking but Hmong rules and cheating players are just kind of in the same bag.

You disagree with my assessment of players is like saying you disagree with the assessment of players in NCAA, USAV, FIVB, AVP...And the rules are proof of it as well.  I didn't make these rules up nor did I assess their skill levels...They're done and "incomplete" and "incompetent" maybe just your nature to nag and try to disprove it as an opinion. I'm telling you facts of some things that can be comparable from player to referee to coach through the progression of volleyball skill levels.  You'll just don't go pro level from high school level.  And I don't know how to explain it any further unless someone has played by all the different levels of players, by the different levels of rules, and by seeing it from all three different pov's.  Players, coaches, and refs will always disagree on things, but when you've been in all three positions long enough...you will connect the dots of comparison.  High School/Hmong rules is really at the bottom of the competition skill levels.  If some vball player from a big10 D1 team comes out and say...High School (NFHS) is superior...the y may as well drop out of college right there.

Look at it this way

High School/Hmong rules: Amateur, intermediate, basic
NCAA rules: advance, Semi-Pro
USAV FIVB BEACH: Semi-Pro, Pro levels

The rules follows it, the underlying progression of skill levels...The more advance players they get more rules and more strategies to work with.  An amateur player to a Pro Beach player is "incompetent" to step onto the pro court level.  Don't get me wrong...one can be competent at their skills level, and still be incompetent to the next skill level.  The amateur player is "incomplete" since they've probably never obtained the skill level to fully play as a complete player in all aspect of serving, passing, setting, blocking, and spiking.  By now one can't cheat like how they do with Hmong rules.

"There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
Like I said not mistaken...I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref from the Pro levels who knows the other rules, over that of just some player whose only grounds are amateur rules (skill levels).  50 years is a lot of rule changes...

9.2.3.2 At the first hit of the team, the ball may
 contact various parts of the body con-
 secutively, provided that the contacts oc-
 cur during one action.
  No one can double hit...double hit is two separate motions.  Don't twist the words.  To a ref, the ball may make multiple contacts.  Like I said...be a real ref by the rule.  You tell a good ref you double hit it...you just lost the rally.  You tell a bad ref you double hit it...well bad ref will probably say play on.  But we gonna have a real good corrective chat with that bad ref...later.  Again I'm not mistaken.
  How can you state that?

No these rules are not just some simple self entitle want or don't want.  They are official.  If you can't play by those rules on those competition levels...you are then as "incomplete" and therefore "incompetent" on those higher levels.  It doesn't make you inferior...jus t haven't got there yet.  When are you gonna realize that I'm not limiting the scope to just Hmong volleyball rules, old school vs new school.  When the officiating rules are changing about every 4 yrs.  I believe 8 yrs for FIVB.  Old school is very old school.  And we're just throwing words around now... ;D

Again...I'm glad the Hmong volleyball is trying to catch up and adopt some of the more current official rules.



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Offline VillainousHero

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2014, 11:10:14 PM »
You just want to keep talking volleyball and keep this thread going... :2funny:

Yeah I've got a problem with Hmong tournaments... they don't even play by Hmong rules...



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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2014, 11:27:21 PM »
Everyone has every right to dislike Hmong tournaments and Hmong rules.  However, it is also not fair to say that the only good rules are the FIVB rules.  The rules have always been changing.  You may or may not realize that.  That is why you thought there was never a rule forcing people to keep the hands together.  Rule 9.2.3.2 changed it by redefining what was a double hit.  One day, you will be on the side looking in.  In fact, that day is closer than what you think.  Rule 9.3.4 doesn't really support open overhand passes.  I don't know if you like this rule or not, but a lot of people who grew up without this rule are probably not going to like it.  There's backlash already.

It still isn't fair to compare D1 players to Hmong pickup players.  Even if the Hmong players played FIVB rules, they still aren't D1 players. 

You just want to keep talking volleyball and keep this thread going... :2funny:

Yeah I've got a problem with Hmong tournaments... they don't even play by Hmong rules...



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Offline VillainousHero

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2014, 04:24:44 AM »
Everyone has every right to dislike Hmong tournaments and Hmong rules.  However, it is also not fair to say that the only good rules are the FIVB rules.  The rules have always been changing.  You may or may not realize that.  That is why you thought there was never a rule forcing people to keep the hands together.  Rule 9.2.3.2 changed it by redefining what was a double hit.  One day, you will be on the side looking in.  In fact, that day is closer than what you think.  Rule 9.3.4 doesn't really support open overhand passes.  I don't know if you like this rule or not, but a lot of people who grew up without this rule are probably not going to like it.  There's backlash already.

It still isn't fair to compare D1 players to Hmong pickup players.  Even if the Hmong players played FIVB rules, they still aren't D1 players. 


You have no idea what I'm talking about really...You should realized that you need to stop talking about a specific rule if you don't understand the wording of it.  You can't reword if from a player's lingo and expect that to hold any merit.  That's playing to the semantic of Hmong rules...one person decides to word it during a tournament and then a few people decides it's a new rule.   It's not fair that his happens, but it happens.

Here's an example of what I mean:  Some player claiming to be blocking the the ball with a spike.  The people who knows the difference will know that it's a spike.  The people who don't know the difference will just believe that player.  Why?  We just say it's Hmong rules and leave it at that.  Is that a positive way of playing vball?  Without even giving any opinion into it.  Those that know the rules...will say no.  Those that don't know the rules...they will just accept it.

Like I said...the word of a real USAV ref of over 50 yrs of experience once told me this, "I've seen more rule changes after y2k then in the last half century of vollleyball history."  Just saying that I've seen just a few rule changes.  I've got more than 20 yrs of vball time in now.

Look at the wording of the current rules of what you talk about. with 9.3.4 And by the way this rule hasn't changed in the since 1990 since I've seen it...and I can't vouch how many more years it's been that way maybe another 50 yrs before that.  It is Not the 2012/13 revision you're talking about, that which you believe has changed nor is it a new rule like you stated.

9.3 FAULTS IN PLAYING THE BALL
 9.3.1 FOUR HITS: a team hits the ball four times before
 returning it.
 9.3.2 ASSISTED HIT: a player takes support from a
 teammate or any structure/object in order to hit
 the ball within the playing area.
 9.3.3 CATCH: the ball is caught and/or thrown; it does
 not rebound from the hit
 9.3.4 DOUBLE CONTACT: a player hits the ball twice in
 succession or the ball contacts various parts of his/
 her body in succession.


Those are faults that will result in ending the play/rally.  No where is the wording about open overhand passes.  You will never argue your case with a ref.  Case closed.

******
I'm wondering why do you believe in your opinion on this: about skills comparison to rules?

Rules do not define player's individual skills...If you  firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed.  I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own.  I was better then many of those D1 players, but didn't have the height to play by their coach's strategy.  I cannot ever claim to be a D1 player because I didn't make the team even though I ate them all by tooling them, but that's not what they want or are looking for.  I just wondering where you get is the level of player skill for a Hmong pick up player? Are you considering college age tournament pick up players or you talking about some beer betting pick up guys in the park?

I'm just wondering if you understand this?  Players must learn how to hone their skills by the rules they play with.  Like I said and started this...I played better vball only after I learned to play with FIVB rules. etc.,...  Come back to Hmong rules and played better vball.  I used rules like a coach uses practice session to hone vball skills.  Coaches can make up any rule they want to during practice.

You don't seem to understand that volleyball doesn't come in different version of the sport of volleyball, just different rules.  If it's your opinion that Hmong vball is a different sport...then that's just your opinion.  To me it's just different rules...like indoor vs outdoor.  To play volleyball, one only needs to know the basics skills and that's the bulk of volleyball rules.  You can play with Hmong rules and do just fine in an NCAA format.  That doesn't mean you're playing by both rules.  If you want to compete on equal grounds of NCAA, then you just gonna have to learn a few skills that NCAA rules will give you.  Why limit your skills to only Hmong rules? or old school Hmong vball?

You don't have to like, embrace, or even beloved a rule change.  You just have to learn to up your skills.



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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2014, 05:07:15 AM »
Before you claim that I don't know what I am talking about, you should think about the rules carefully. 

Instead of listening to ONE person, just look up the facts for yourself. 

You wrote, "this rule hasn't changed in the since 1990 since I've seen it..."  Guess what?  People have been playing volleyball long before 1990. 

As for Rule 9.3.4...don't take my word for it.  Go look it up.  See it in practice.  Go see how it is being called.  See people's reactions to the rule.  The rule is pretty much stopping open overhand passes.  The hit now has to be perfectly clean....which so happens to be closer to the original rules of volleyball.... which you mistakenly claimed that have never changed.  Sure, it's not specifically stated as illegal, but guess what?  When a player does it, it's called for a double.  That pretty much means you can't do it. 

It's your logic that fails.  First, you claimed that Hmong rules can only make guys high school level players and not D1 players.  The fact is that the Hmong people you were assessing were probably never D1 talent to begin with.  Second, let's flip it.  If there happens to be a D1 talent level Hmong player, would playing Hmong rules hurt him so much that he couldn't play any other kind of volleyball?  That's doubtful.  Talent and skills are universal regardless of where a person plays. 

At the end of the day, you are upset because you are comparing D1 guys to pickup players.  Do you realize how absurd this is? 

Rules are always changing in all sports.  One day, you will be on the outside looking in.  You just don't realize it, but the new rule is phasing out what you are supporting.  Anything no longer goes for service reception....h ey, that sounds like Hmong rules.  The rules you deemed incompetent.   :2funny:


You have no idea what I'm talking about really...You should realized that you need to stop talking about a specific rule if you don't understand the wording of it.  You can't reword if from a player's lingo and expect that to hold any merit.  That's playing to the semantic of Hmong rules...one person decides to word it during a tournament and then a few people decides it's a new rule.   It's not fair that his happens, but it happens.

Here's an example of what I mean:  Some player claiming to be blocking the the ball with a spike.  The people who knows the difference will know that it's a spike.  The people who don't know the difference will just believe that player.  Why?  We just say it's Hmong rules and leave it at that.  Is that a positive way of playing vball?  Without even giving any opinion into it.  Those that know the rules...will say no.  Those that don't know the rules...they will just accept it.

Like I said...the word of a real USAV ref of over 50 yrs of experience once told me this, "I've seen more rule changes after y2k then in the last half century of vollleyball history."  Just saying that I've seen just a few rule changes.  I've got more than 20 yrs of vball time in now.

Look at the wording of the current rules of what you talk about. with 9.3.4 And by the way this rule hasn't changed in the since 1990 since I've seen it...and I can't vouch how many more years it's been that way maybe another 50 yrs before that.  It is Not the 2012/13 revision you're talking about, that which you believe has changed nor is it a new rule like you stated.

9.3 FAULTS IN PLAYING THE BALL
 9.3.1 FOUR HITS: a team hits the ball four times before
 returning it.
 9.3.2 ASSISTED HIT: a player takes support from a
 teammate or any structure/object in order to hit
 the ball within the playing area.
 9.3.3 CATCH: the ball is caught and/or thrown; it does
 not rebound from the hit
 9.3.4 DOUBLE CONTACT: a player hits the ball twice in
 succession or the ball contacts various parts of his/
 her body in succession.


Those are faults that will result in ending the play/rally.  No where is the wording about open overhand passes.  You will never argue your case with a ref.  Case closed.

******
I'm wondering why do you believe in your opinion on this: about skills comparison to rules?

Rules do not define player's individual skills...If you  firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed.  I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own.  I was better then many of those D1 players, but didn't have the height to play by their coach's strategy.  I cannot ever claim to be a D1 player because I didn't make the team even though I ate them all by tooling them, but that's not what they want or are looking for.  I just wondering where you get is the level of player skill for a Hmong pick up player? Are you considering college age tournament pick up players or you talking about some beer betting pick up guys in the park?

I'm just wondering if you understand this?  Players must learn how to hone their skills by the rules they play with.  Like I said and started this...I played better vball only after I learned to play with FIVB rules. etc.,...  Come back to Hmong rules and played better vball.  I used rules like a coach uses practice session to hone vball skills.  Coaches can make up any rule they want to during practice.

You don't seem to understand that volleyball doesn't come in different version of the sport of volleyball, just different rules.  If it's your opinion that Hmong vball is a different sport...then that's just your opinion.  To me it's just different rules...like indoor vs outdoor.  To play volleyball, one only needs to know the basics skills and that's the bulk of volleyball rules.  You can play with Hmong rules and do just fine in an NCAA format.  That doesn't mean you're playing by both rules.  If you want to compete on equal grounds of NCAA, then you just gonna have to learn a few skills that NCAA rules will give you.  Why limit your skills to only Hmong rules? or old school Hmong vball?

You don't have to like, embrace, or even beloved a rule change.  You just have to learn to up your skills.



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Offline VillainousHero

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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2014, 07:16:05 AM »
Ah yeah yeah...why do you disagree? and only conjecture with only opinions on grounds without any empirical data nor actual experience.

I'm just pointing out your errors and giving you examples of what I've seen of how good you are at wording incorrectly.   O0



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Re: Volleyball....did you know the rules have changed?!?!
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2014, 08:50:23 AM »
1.  Um, I was the one to say it was all preference.  You are the one to say otherwise.   :idiot2:

2.  You said Hmong rules make players only high school level players.  In fact, those same players would have been high school players regardless of the rules. 

3.  You said there was never a rule forcing people to keep the hands together, but there was.  It was changed with 9.2.3.2 and again with 9.3.4.

4. Comparing D1 players to Hmong pickup players still isn't fair.  You should compare Hmong pickup players with other pickup players.  If you do that, you'll find that they aren't that bad even playing in a FIVB rules game. 

You are the one with the errors and the failed logic.  It is fine if you dislike Hmong rules and prefer FIVB rules.  However, your facts and your comparisons are wrong. 

Ah yeah yeah...why do you disagree? and only conjecture with only opinions on grounds without any empirical data nor actual experience.

I'm just pointing out your errors and giving you examples of what I've seen of how good you are at wording incorrectly.   O0



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