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Offline floaty

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very disappointed funeral
« on: August 26, 2014, 04:11:24 AM »
we had a traditional funeral for a great grandmother. 1 of my nyab is traditional and the 2 others are christians.
if it was not for my traditional nyab, nothing would get done. no food would be cooked and no items, ingredients, supplies would be bought.
my 2 other christian nyab just dranked their lungs out till they were drunk and never lifted a finger to cook. they sat inside and slept on benches where their tight clothed bodies were exposed to all the guest and woke up to play cards with mens.
the worst part, the 2 christian nyab brought drama to the funeral and fought other ppl. all 30 yr olds plus. shame. shame. shameful. embarassing.

what i want to say is, all you christian nyab, don't be like that. you married into a shaman family, learn and respect our ways, as we do, yours. stop the embarassment.



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Offline duckwingduck

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2014, 05:34:07 AM »
Hmong funerals are way too demanding and are unreasonable.  They need  to be changed.



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J-a-s-o-n

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2014, 06:06:29 AM »
Hope it'll be different a few weeks from now  ???



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minorcharacter

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2014, 08:30:35 AM »
That's a shame.  I know a lot of Christians who are very helpful during these ceremonies.  Just because they believe in God doesn't mean they don't follow many of the old traditions.  I know it's not their job, but the least they could do is try to be helpful and respectful.  What are they, 16?



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chidorix0x

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 01:36:39 AM »
Hmong funerals are way too demanding and are unreasonable.  They need  to be changed.

Specifically, what are the "demanding and unreasonable" things in a Hmong funeral -- especially if they are required and expected of a "nyab"?

Hmong-Christians ... UGH! (An utter waste of time, text, and energy to comment  ...   >:D)



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Offline SummerBerry

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 07:01:13 PM »
If you are the dil/nyab then your role during the funeral when it is open is mostly just to sit up close to the casket.  Someone has to hold the candle.  Cry and nev......You don't have no role in cooking, cleaning, preparation, shopping, etc.  Those role/duty are already assigned or given notice ahead of time to people. Very few time you may have to assisted with shopping or running some errand that is being asked but rare. 




« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 05:18:14 PM by SummerBerry »

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Vob-Kib

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 10:41:28 AM »
That's disappointing to read about.



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chidorix0x

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 11:49:30 PM »
If you are the dil/nyab then your role during the funeral when it is open is mostly just to sit up close to the casket.  Someone has to hold the candle.  Cry and nev......You don't have no role in cooking, cleaning, preparation, shopping, etc.  Those role/duty are already assigned or given notice ahead of time to people. Very few time you may have to assisted with shopping or running some errand that is being asked but rare. 

...
...

SummerBerry, (Yes, most if not ALL you PHers, like you, are quite ignorant about Hmong-anything/everything; thus no shocker you all will make these ignorant "faux-pas" == EPIC FAILS!.)

So this nearsighted claim (observation/opinion) is an Epic FAIL! For the record (fact), directly in accordance to/with Hmong culture, custom, and funeral rites; it is in fact "ntxhais vauv zov qauv", NOT, NOT "tub nyab zov hle".  (YES! They (she) are (is) specifically asked/tasked to do this job/role.  NOT just anyone can/is suppose to do it, especially NOT a "dil/nyab", nor is she even asked/expected to, though she may congregate there -- most likely unknowingly without etiquette. Period.)  "dil/nyab" is in fact "xyom cuab", and arguably the "dil/nyab" is suppose to help with "cooking, cleaning, preparation, shopping etc." more so than not nowadays, if she knows her role, responsibiliti es, and "work requirements/assistance/expectations".  That is a dil/nyab "paub tab paub cai". "dil/nyab" most certainly DO NOT/IS NOT suppose to "sit close to the casket", or even be near it period. No further explanation is needed.  (Solution: Go learn some formal/accurate "Hmoob Kev Cai Dab Qhuas.", and not just base whatever you think you know, or believe is correct, on ignorance, unfounded, poor, and perfectly wrong observation, or worst yet "I think", "Perhaps", "Maybe", "Looks like", etc. as being the NORM/right course of actionFAIL!)

This nearsighted claim (observation/opinion) is also an Epic FAIL!  While true, "cov Niam Ua Mov" has been been tasked/asked to do this specific job/role.  The "dil/nyab", if she knows or is a responsible individual, a dil/nayb "paub tab paub kev cai", she will know what her job(s), role(s), and responsibiliti es are.  No need to elaborate/explain this to "deaf ears"  ...   >:D  (See proposed "Solution".)



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yuknowthat

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2014, 02:16:04 AM »
Being christians has nothing to do with it, but immature and ruam..



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Offline SummerBerry

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 05:32:47 PM »
SummerBerry, (Yes, most if not ALL you PHers, like you, are quite ignorant about Hmong-anything/everything; thus no shocker you all will make these ignorant "faux-pas" == EPIC FAILS!.)

So this nearsighted claim (observation/opinion) is an Epic FAIL! For the record (fact), directly in accordance to/with Hmong culture, custom, and funeral rites; it is in fact "ntxhais vauv zov qauv", NOT, NOT "tub nyab zov hle".  (YES! They (she) are (is) specifically asked/tasked to do this job/role.  NOT just anyone can/is suppose to do it, especially NOT a "dil/nyab", nor is she even asked/expected to, though she may congregate there -- most likely unknowingly without etiquette. Period.)  "dil/nyab" is in fact "xyom cuab", and arguably the "dil/nyab" is suppose to help with "cooking, cleaning, preparation, shopping etc." more so than not nowadays, if she knows her role, responsibiliti es, and "work requirements/assistance/expectations".  That is a dil/nyab "paub tab paub cai". "dil/nyab" most certainly DO NOT/IS NOT suppose to "sit close to the casket", or even be near it period. No further explanation is needed.  (Solution: Go learn some formal/accurate "Hmoob Kev Cai Dab Qhuas.", and not just base whatever you think you know, or believe is correct, on ignorance, unfounded, poor, and perfectly wrong observation, or worst yet "I think", "Perhaps", "Maybe", "Looks like", etc. as being the NORM/right course of actionFAIL!)

This nearsighted claim (observation/opinion) is also an Epic FAIL!  While true, "cov Niam Ua Mov" has been been tasked/asked to do this specific job/role.  The "dil/nyab", if she knows or is a responsible individual, a dil/nayb "paub tab paub kev cai", she will know what her job(s), role(s), and responsibiliti es are.  No need to elaborate/explain this to "deaf ears"  ...   >:D  (See proposed "Solution".)

I went back to read what the OP wrote.  I agree with you.  I think I was just speaking more of a tub nyab role which is why I meant to said we didn't do much as immediate nyab to in-laws.   Back to what the OP point out.  I think she was right to vent about it because they should have help with the cooking, cleaning, etc.  I would have done the same thing if it was uncle/aunt, grandparent, etc. 

I don't come from a 80-90% traditional clan and get to experience funeral so I haven't  observed much of the roles or duties or the procedures.  My in-laws are like some of the very first traditional funeral I've been part of.  I honestly do appreciated how everything is done and how everyone come together.  I've attend a few but being more distant it just being there to show respect but it has not come down to helping around a lot because even though the Vang clan of my husband is large they are break down into groups.  Our group is the smallest. 

My side is 90% Christian and funeral is always prepared and done by the help of the church members.  Cov xyom cuab don't do much.  Within the last 2-3 yrs I've attend funeral of my side but most of them only died because of old age. 

Can you answer this question for me.  In Hmong culture....... .if as nyab were suppose to show love for our in-laws.  Why is there a procedure on the day of the burial that whoever is the nyab holding the candle crossing over cannot be at the burial site or go there?  I always feel that is not right to missed a burial ceremony for that pathetic reason behind it. 

I guess with my in-laws gone....  The important thing in the Hmong culture is already going downhill a little.  There is always a good and bad.........



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chidorix0x

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 08:58:37 PM »
I went back to read what the OP wrote.  I agree with you.  I think I was just speaking more of a tub nyab role which is why I meant to said we didn't do much as immediate nyab to in-laws.   Back to what the OP point out.  I think she was right to vent about it because they should have help with the cooking, cleaning, etc.  I would have done the same thing if it was uncle/aunt, grandparent, etc. 

I don't come from a 80-90% traditional clan and get to experience funeral so I haven't  observed much of the roles or duties or the procedures.  My in-laws are like some of the very first traditional funeral I've been part of.  I honestly do appreciated how everything is done and how everyone come together.  I've attend a few but being more distant it just being there to show respect but it has not come down to helping around a lot because even though the Vang clan of my husband is large they are break down into groups.  Our group is the smallest. 

My side is 90% Christian and funeral is always prepared and done by the help of the church members.  Cov xyom cuab don't do much.  Within the last 2-3 yrs I've attend funeral of my side but most of them only died because of old age. 

Can you answer this question for me.  In Hmong culture....... .if as nyab were suppose to show love for our in-laws.  Why is there a procedure on the day of the burial that whoever is the nyab holding the candle crossing over cannot be at the burial site or go there?  I always feel that is not right to missed a burial ceremony for that pathetic reason behind it. 

I guess with my in-laws gone....  The important thing in the Hmong culture is already going downhill a little.  There is always a good and bad.........

Short answer, "NO such thing whatsoever in traditional Hmong culture (funeral rites)."

Or you/everyone can go and do this instead:  (Solution: Go learn some formal/accurate "Hmoob Kev Cai Dab Qhuas.", and not just base whatever you think you know, or believe is correct, on ignorance, unfounded, poor, and perfectly wrong observation, or worst yet "I think", "Perhaps", "Maybe", "Looks like", etc. as being the NORM/right course of action.  FAIL!)



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Offline floaty

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2014, 03:58:08 AM »
In all the traditionalfun erals I've attended, burial sites and the meal/thank you/discussion and 13 days after ceremony, I have never seen the candle part? Could it be with the christian side?



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chidorix0x

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 04:03:53 PM »
In all the traditionalfun erals I've attended, burial sites and the meal/thank you/discussion and 13 days after ceremony, I have never seen the candle part? Could it be with the christian side?

Ok, let me clear up (educate everyone) about this (these types of) "sideline observation ignorance" -- as I am probably the only PHer who has a clue (sound knowledge) of and about anything Hmong; history, culture, and customs etc.. 

And in all fairness to SummerBerry, she actually got a minute piece of it "correct/right" (that is in RED).  And that is " the nyab holding the candle crossing over cannot be at the burial site or go there  " .  Beyond that, there is "NO candle", and whatever is meant by "crossing over", that, I have no clue as neither of these are found inherently within a traditional Hmong funeral rite/ritual.

So here is the CORRECT/RIGHT procedure (process) regarding the daughter-in-law's (nyab) role and why she cannot be present at the burial.  (The biggest reason why everyone; specifically US-born Hmong kids/adults -- meaning you, all of you PHers -- are completely clueless about this particular procedure (process) is because IT IS NOT, or strictly practiced/observed anymore nowadays as it use to be back in SE Asia.  I have only witnessed it TWICE in over several decades of my participation in any/all Hmong funerals I have attended and helped out here in the USA.)

1.  On the day of the burial when the casket is being lead (taken) out of the funeral home, a daughter-in-law (nyab) is tasked to lead the way.  She is called or referred to as "nyab taws tsaug", or "nyab nqab tsaug" -- NOT a candle.  Nowadays, she actually carries a bundle of lit "josing essence sticks" -- NOT a candle.  Back in SE Asia, she would carry a "piece of burning timber", or a "bundle of burning twigs".  Basically she is carrying "fire to light the way in darkness (death)" to put it simply, or metaphorically, to lead and guide everyone in darkness (death), at the very least outside of the funeral home, or place of funeral rites, and on their way to the burial site (grave).

She is followed by a reed player (txiv qeej) who is playing his reed pipe to aide (entice) the dead (casket) to follow, leading it to its burial (grave).  The casket then follows, being carried by loved ones -- the sons of the deceased.

2.
Along the way, about half-way or less, on route to the burial (grave), the daughter-in-law (nyab) will toss away (or place) the burning timber (twigs, or josing sticks) in a safe place to let it burn through/out.  Immediately she will return home -- to the residence of the family of the deceased, as they will be returning.  The reason she is going there and not to the burial site is because she has to make preparations for the returning family (relatives, in-laws, and loved ones).  This does not necessarily mean she is going there to prepare a meal for everyone on their return, but it could include this if prior preparations are made.  The "MAIN/SOLE REASON" she cannot attend the burial and is going back before everyone is to prepare TWO things for everyone upon their return.  ONE, she must get and setup a bucket or pale of water outside so that everyone returning home can wash (cleanse) their hands.  TWO, she must also start a fire outside of the house so that everyone returning home can dry their washed hands and must step over the fire before entering the home. BOTH of these are done to "WARD of evil spirits" (or even the deceased) that may have followed anyone from the burial site back.

This, what I have explained, is consistent with and is found inherently (practiced/observed) within a traditional Hmong funereal rite/ritual.  (Ua tsaug.)



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Offline floaty

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2014, 11:45:36 PM »
ok, the bucket of water and burning torch or burning bundle after returning from funeral, yes i have seen and done. makes sense now.



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SinX

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Re: very disappointed funeral
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 04:57:11 PM »
Ok, let me clear up (educate everyone) about this (these types of) "sideline observation ignorance" -- as I am probably the only PHer who has a clue (sound knowledge) of and about anything Hmong; history, culture, and customs etc.. 

And in all fairness to SummerBerry, she actually got a minute piece of it "correct/right" (that is in RED).  And that is " the nyab holding the candle crossing over cannot be at the burial site or go there  " .  Beyond that, there is "NO candle", and whatever is meant by "crossing over", that, I have no clue as neither of these are found inherently within a traditional Hmong funeral rite/ritual.

So here is the CORRECT/RIGHT procedure (process) regarding the daughter-in-law's (nyab) role and why she cannot be present at the burial.  (The biggest reason why everyone; specifically US-born Hmong kids/adults -- meaning you, all of you PHers -- are completely clueless about this particular procedure (process) is because IT IS NOT, or strictly practiced/observed anymore nowadays as it use to be back in SE Asia.  I have only witnessed it TWICE in over several decades of my participation in any/all Hmong funerals I have attended and helped out here in the USA.)

1.  On the day of the burial when the casket is being lead (taken) out of the funeral home, a daughter-in-law (nyab) is tasked to lead the way.  She is called or referred to as "nyab taws tsaug", or "nyab nqab tsaug" -- NOT a candle.  Nowadays, she actually carries a bundle of lit "josing essence sticks" -- NOT a candle.  Back in SE Asia, she would carry a "piece of burning timber", or a "bundle of burning twigs".  Basically she is carrying "fire to light the way in darkness (death)" to put it simply, or metaphorically, to lead and guide everyone in darkness (death), at the very least outside of the funeral home, or place of funeral rites, and on their way to the burial site (grave).

She is followed by a reed player (txiv qeej) who is playing his reed pipe to aide (entice) the dead (casket) to follow, leading it to its burial (grave).  The casket then follows, being carried by loved ones -- the sons of the deceased.

2.
Along the way, about half-way or less, on route to the burial (grave), the daughter-in-law (nyab) will toss away (or place) the burning timber (twigs, or josing sticks) in a safe place to let it burn through/out.  Immediately she will return home -- to the residence of the family of the deceased, as they will be returning.  The reason she is going there and not to the burial site is because she has to make preparations for the returning family (relatives, in-laws, and loved ones).  This does not necessarily mean she is going there to prepare a meal for everyone on their return, but it could include this if prior preparations are made.  The "MAIN/SOLE REASON" she cannot attend the burial and is going back before everyone is to prepare TWO things for everyone upon their return.  ONE, she must get and setup a bucket or pale of water outside so that everyone returning home can wash (cleanse) their hands.  TWO, she must also start a fire outside of the house so that everyone returning home can dry their washed hands and must step over the fire before entering the home. BOTH of these are done to "WARD of evil spirits" (or even the deceased) that may have followed anyone from the burial site back.

This, what I have explained, is consistent with and is found inherently (practiced/observed) within a traditional Hmong funereal rite/ritual.  (Ua tsaug.)

Most of your post is correct.  However, you presented some false information as well.  Also, keep in mind that every Hmong family practices funeral traditions in different ways so you should not assume that the information you presented is true for all Hmongs.  In my Xiong clan, the OLDEST nyab brings the CANDLE (which represents the deceased's spirit and is used again during the "xw" and "tso plig") home from the funeral home and is forbidden to attend the burial.  The other nyabs are free to attend the burial.

The following statement that you wrote above is FALSE: "The MAIN/SOLE REASON she cannot attend the burial and is going back before everyone is to prepare TWO things for everyone upon their return.  ONE, she must get and setup a bucket or pale of water outside so that everyone returning home can wash (cleanse) their hands.  TWO, she must also start a fire outside of the house so that everyone returning home can dry their washed hands and must step over the fire before entering the home."  While that MAY be the nyab's responsibility, that is NOT her SOLE responsibility .  Her main responsibility, in our clan anyway, is to coj plig mus tsev.  In fact, I have seen men prepare the water and fire before for the ones returning from the burial.

I also want to add to Summerberry's comment regarding the nyab's responsibility for watching over the body of the deceased and the casket.  It IS a responsibility of the nyab - though it may not be her only responsibility - to watch over to ensure that other people with bad intentions do not sneak in metal or any other foreign objects into the casket.  Hmongs believe that the body should only be buried with natural materials that will decompose into the earth.  Metals or other foreign objects will cause an imbalance in the spirit world and cause harm to the descendants.  That is why Hmongs will pull out tooth fillings, metal crowns from the body and remove metal buttons and zippers from the clothing of the body.



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