Fresno police release more details about murder-suicide in fresno cal

[AOZ]

Yes, call the cops, send her to juvie, send her to a mental home, or do something about it.   If the parents don't protest, no matter how many years later, if there are problems occurring, the problem will always be connected to the parents.  It doesn't matter how you look at it, this case is big time connecting to the parents. 

Try explaining to the feds/court once they are subpoena to stand trial for violating the laws.

So you are saying put her parents in jail...along with the groom right?   And  12 year olds who want to marry need to be institutionali zed.....and medicated because she is mentally not all there.....I agree....this will teach them....becaus e this has nothing to do with our culture....in 1993 here in america girls weren't forced to marry...ESPN 12 year olds.

[Sydney]

So you are saying put her parents in jail...along with the groom right?   And  12 year olds who want to marry need to be institutionali zed.....and medicated because she is mentally not all there.....I agree....this will teach them....becaus e this has nothing to do with our culture....in 1993 here in america girls weren't forced to marry...ESPN 12 year olds.

Remove culture from the problem.  Look from the perspective of a 12 year old being married to a 21 year old.  From her side of the family, who is responsible for her well being and safety?  Is it the child her own guardian, or were there parents involved? 

If the parents were involved, yes, by all means, lock them up for their wrong doing.  What is wrong with that?   

[VillainousHero]

You make quite the assumption there with all unproven speculations.  From your perspective, if the horse is dead, instead of diagnosing the problem, you say its safe to speculate that the horse could have spoken up or done something differently at 12 years old? 

I don't know man.  If a child could make decision at 12 years old, why couldn't a child vote already?  Its alright to make speculations, but it is not alright to use speculation to shroud up a murder case connecting to traditional practice.  You have to put all facts on the table or all bets are off. 

There is a rumor that the Feds are investigating into this type of child bride within the Hmong.  I hope that if we are only making speculations, we don't build ourselves into a corner with unproven speculations.

You're missing the part of logical thinking/reasoning.  Call it logical speculating then.

Like AOZ, I am fully capable of making adult decision at the age of 12 yrs old - no I'm not speculating nor shrouding anything.  In fact I was more than capable from the age of 10 and more than capable of cooking for myself from the age of 5.  Yes, I used a sharp knife and still have all my fingers.  (Well I burned a lot of food, but still didn't burn myself). I made my decision at 5 yrs of age to eat my own cooking.  This is my perspective.  From my perspective - waiting till a person is 18 to be recognize as capable of making any decision is like retracting all emancipated minors.

Voting is a bad comparison - since the law would only recognized 18 yrs of age.  An emancipated minor still can't vote.

Was she so incapable of making any decision? - that required the law to take her children away from her because she was still a minor with children?

I may speculate that her and his parents weren't college degree city folks and she and he is more educated than her parents.   Yet there's a logic to that.  Our parents a majority of refugees - farmers.  Yes, unproven speculation - cuz I don't know her parents.  Now if I speculate that they be college degreed city folks and still allowed this, then let the law punish her parents and his parents.  Logic would dictate that they ought to know better.

In the court room = lawyers aren't going to put all the facts on the table.  They're only going to put the only facts that are favorable to them.  So which is it?  I can state as a fact that I'm capable of decisions at 12 yrs old.  While you can state as a fact that you're not able to make decisions at 12 yrs old.  Neither of this is speculation.

American society thinks people are stupid till 18 yrs.  Yet stupidity doesn't care about age.

Our parent's and before had a society of necessity for early marriage.  Like I state the necessity of life - 40-50 yrs life span.

[Sydney]

You're missing the part of logical thinking/reasoning.  Call it logical speculating then.

Like AOZ, I am fully capable of making adult decision at the age of 12 yrs old - no I'm not speculating nor shrouding anything.  In fact I was more than capable from the age of 10 and more than capable of cooking for myself from the age of 5.  Yes, I used a sharp knife and still have all my fingers.  (Well I burned a lot of food, but still didn't burn myself). I made my decision at 5 yrs of age to eat my own cooking.  This is my perspective.  From my perspective - waiting till a person is 18 to be recognize as capable of making any decision is like retracting all emancipated minors.

Voting is a bad comparison - since the law would only recognized 18 yrs of age.  An emancipated minor still can't vote.

Was she so incapable of making any decision? - that required the law to take her children away from her because she was still a minor with children?

I may speculate that her and his parents weren't college degree city folks and she and he is more educated than her parents.   Yet there's a logic to that.  Our parents a majority of refugees - farmers.  Yes, unproven speculation - cuz I don't know her parents.  Now if I speculate that they be college degreed city folks and still allowed this, then let the law punish her parents and his parents.  Logic would dictate that they ought to know better.

In the court room = lawyers aren't going to put all the facts on the table.  They're only going to put the only facts that are favorable to them.  So which is it?  I can state as a fact that I'm capable of decisions at 12 yrs old.  While you can state as a fact that you're not able to make decisions at 12 yrs old.  Neither of this is speculation.

American society thinks people are stupid till 18 yrs.  Yet stupidity doesn't care about age.

Our parent's and before had a society of necessity for early marriage.  Like I state the necessity of life - 40-50 yrs life span.

We are not living in a self-governing community where everyone can be an adult at age 5, 6, or 12 years old.  The law is the law and 18 is considered an adult.  That is not speculation, its a fact.

[VillainousHero]

We are not living in a self-governing community where everyone can be an adult at age 5, 6, or 12 years old.  The law is the law and 18 is considered an adult.  That is not speculation, its a fact.

No - the law as a fact allows for emancipated minors.

[Sydney]

No - the law as a fact allows for emancipated minors.

In that case, for all the minors that got married before their 18 birthday, let them all be trialed as adults if they are found guilty of criminal offense.  I feel like the murder-suicide case in Fresno isn't the only child bride case.  You guys convince me that the child bride issue is more of an epidemic in Hmong community. 

[VillainousHero]

Even in our Hmong society...

12 yrs old loses virginity = marriage.  That's what our social logic was before coming to America.  If someone chooses to do the deed then they are socially regulated when convicted.  Or they face, corporeal punishment = 4 bull death body stretched, if their social laws condemn them to so.

You can't expect some transplanted mountain villagers refugees to suddenly understand the laws and customs of the land they emigrated to, especially when you may have illiterate adults making decisions.  If that be the case, then a literate 12 yrs old if far more equipped than those illiterate adults. 

If these refugees - say a minor with children according to US laws...making decisions for his/her family.  Already socially recognized as the decision maker equal to any adult capacity, comes over to USA, then what?  For the sake of argument - this person just so happen to be fully literate in English and fully educated, so we can't argue the point of them misunderstandi ng - we gonna say, you're just a child - we are going to take your children away from you and put them into an orphanage.  No we aren't.  The emancipated minor law - should automatically apply to them and give them full recognition as an adult.  At which point the parents of this person - wouldn't need to be consulted for decisions on any matter.  (Although we know Hmong people by social norms - makes decision as a family).  Call it a micro-democracy of the family.

So logic applied to our murder-suicide case scenario - going back to the time of her marriage - for her to now argue that she was too young = looking like missing some information.

So does this logic of speculation = diagnosing the cause (of the problem)?

So I surmise/speculate = her marriage in question, is it related to her virginity?  = diagnosing the problem.

[VillainousHero]

In that case, for all the minors that got married before their 18 birthday, let them all be trialed as adults if they are found guilty of criminal offense.  I feel like the murder-suicide case in Fresno isn't the only child bride case.  You guys convince me that the child bride issue is more of an epidemic in Hmong community.

Yeah, it is.  It puts them on a societal disadvantage.  However each person makes their decisions.  Should they regret it later, don't play that - I was too young card.  Especially when they're literate and understand US customs and laws.

(Don't date until you're 18...) 

[Sydney]

Yeah, it is.  It puts them on a societal disadvantage.  However each person makes their decisions.  Should they regret it later, don't play that - I was too young card.  Especially when they're literate and understand US customs and laws.

(Don't date until you're 18...) 

Apparently, according to you, all kids mature at age 5, 6 and 12 and all parents are blameless.  This must be some backwardness that I'm not well in tune with.  Good luck with your personal defense.  I think I'll stick with the law of the country, not the people because people like you will bring me down to your level and win over with your experience.

[VillainousHero]

Apparently, according to you, all kids mature at age 5, 6 and 12 and all parents are blameless.  This must be some backwardness that I'm not well in tune with.  Good luck with your personal defense.  I think I'll stick with the law of the country, not the people because people like you will bring me down to your level and win over with your experience.

How you came to that conclusion is your opinion.

People like me...I'm just trying to put all the facts on the table.  Not being on defense nor accusation.  Not trying to witch hunt someone or find blame on one thing.  Not imposing anything on anyone, well perhaps I'm imposing a neutrality (jury duty pov).  I apologize for trying to bring you down to my level of open mindedness.

Short List of some facts/topics:
Hmong people longevity 40-50 yrs old.
Hmong society adulthood recognition before USA is not regulated to age of 18 yrs old.
Hmong decision making process - involving the whole family
Hmong refugee with high majority of illiteracy
Educated and literate minors surpassing their parents
Hmong marriage customs and traditions - the shenanigans - the respectful methods - the disrespectful methods, the arranged marriages, the kidnapped marriages, etc.,...
Rebel teenagers
USA laws of emancipated minor
Negligence of prior judge and case workers - her claimed - sold, DV = resulted in only annulment of marriage
Her finalized divorce - yet she still lived with the ex.

So many unanswerable questions...en d of discussion.

[Sydney]

How you came to that conclusion is your opinion.

People like me...I'm just trying to put all the facts on the table.  Not being on defense nor accusation.  Not trying to witch hunt someone or find blame on one thing.  Not imposing anything on anyone, well perhaps I'm imposing a neutrality (jury duty pov).  I apologize for trying to bring you down to my level of open mindedness.

Short List of some facts/topics:
Hmong people longevity 40-50 yrs old.
Hmong society adulthood recognition before USA is not regulated to age of 18 yrs old.
Hmong decision making process - involving the whole family
Hmong refugee with high majority of illiteracy
Educated and literate minors surpassing their parents
Hmong marriage customs and traditions - the shenanigans - the respectful methods - the disrespectful methods, the arranged marriages, the kidnapped marriages, etc.,...
Rebel teenagers
USA laws of emancipated minor
Negligence of prior judge and case workers - her claimed - sold, DV = resulted in only annulment of marriage
Her finalized divorce - yet she still lived with the ex.

So many unanswerable questions...en d of discussion.

Hmong traditions cannot supercede US constitutional laws and will not win over a child bride murder case.  You seem to think that you are above the law and have the power to determine who is mature at 5,6, 12 are not very credible.

[Sydney]

How you came to that conclusion is your opinion.

People like me...I'm just trying to put all the facts on the table.  Not being on defense nor accusation.  Not trying to witch hunt someone or find blame on one thing.  Not imposing anything on anyone, well perhaps I'm imposing a neutrality (jury duty pov).  I apologize for trying to bring you down to my level of open mindedness.

Short List of some facts/topics:
Hmong people longevity 40-50 yrs old.
Hmong society adulthood recognition before USA is not regulated to age of 18 yrs old.
Hmong decision making process - involving the whole family
Hmong refugee with high majority of illiteracy
Educated and literate minors surpassing their parents
Hmong marriage customs and traditions - the shenanigans - the respectful methods - the disrespectful methods, the arranged marriages, the kidnapped marriages, etc.,...
Rebel teenagers
USA laws of emancipated minor
Negligence of prior judge and case workers - her claimed - sold, DV = resulted in only annulment of marriage
Her finalized divorce - yet she still lived with the ex.

So many unanswerable questions...en d of discussion.

According to Wiki of 2012, the life expectancy are as followings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

#36 USA Country, the average male life expectancy is 77.4 years and female is 82.2 years
#78 Thailand Country, the average male life expectancy is 71.4 and female is 78.4
#136 Laos Country, the average male life expectancy is 66.5 and female is 69.5

Where did you get your statistics to support your claim of 40-50 years old?

In reference to your second point above, we are not living the Hmong country, we are citizens of the United States so we are all governed by the constitutional law and not Hmong law.

In reference to your third point above, if decision making involves the whole family, then why isn't the whole family responsible for the child bride issue.  You previously stated that the child at 12 was mature and made her own decision, so she cannot blame the parents.  Why are you going back and forth in your response?

In reference to your fourth point above, Hmong has lived in the United States for 40 years.  As interconnected as we are all, if one parent lack the understanding of the law, one of the relatives usually step up to help.  Illiteracy is cannot absolve a criminal offense. 

In reference to your fifth point, that is just dumb.  We, as children, always are obedient to your parents.  It does not matter how well educated we are, we hold our parents in the utmost esteem and honor.  We don't ever for once think that we are above our parents.  Where did you get your facts again?

[VillainousHero]

This is just dumb, we obeyed our parents, got married young, can't blame our parents, cuz we decided to enjoy intercourse education, thought was so smart and gonna squeeze some balls, didn't even live to 40 years old, cuz got killed, hope the bastard get's his, oh wait he tripped and shot himself, what a farce, facts of life, petty argument, gotta prove this and that, wasn't born yesterday, punishment equals the crime, too young to realize, 18 yrs is an absolute law, have to pick a side, be pretentious, facetious, sarcastic, cynical, synonymous, keep dragging this till the cows come home, play melodrama, lets be illiterate and liberalize it, lets be educated conservatively, etc.,...

So boring...

knock knock
who's there
who
who who
who who who who
***crickets chirping***

[Sydney]

This is just dumb, we obeyed our parents, got married young, can't blame our parents, cuz we decided to enjoy intercourse education, thought was so smart and gonna squeeze some balls, didn't even live to 40 years old, cuz got killed, hope the bastard get's his, oh wait he tripped and shot himself, what a farce, facts of life, petty argument, gotta prove this and that, wasn't born yesterday, punishment equals the crime, too young to realize, 18 yrs is an absolute law, have to pick a side, be pretentious, facetious, sarcastic, cynical, synonymous, keep dragging this till the cows come home, play melodrama, lets be illiterate and liberalize it, lets be educated conservatively, etc.,...

So boring...

knock knock
who's there
who
who who
who who who who
***crickets chirping***

[SumTingWong]

Putting the blame on tradition and parents is nothing but an excuse.  What an excuse to make our traditions parents the bad guys....    our traditions have always been ever so changing to environments and times....

I grew up with such girls.... and these girls are the ones who let themselves make these major decisions when they are 12-15 years old.  What are parents to do?   What would you do if your 12 year run off or elope to be with her 21 year old BF or  live with him?  Would you call the cops on her and send her to live in Foster home?  Send her to juvie?  What if she'd threatened to kill herself in front of you?  Would you send her to a mental home to be medicated?  Not all but most of the girls who do marry early are emotionally unstable.... always blaming others for their bad decisions... sure.. perhaps parents should have sent these girls to mental homes... to be medicated to save them from making bad decisions.... perhaps...

bottom line is.... if you want out of your marriage... leave on good terms and stop instigating... move far away and leave other person alone so s/he can heal... don't need to hurt them by bankrupting him/her....

Perhaps I am not understanding your definition of Tradition here... maybe you can explain it to us.

Google translates "Tradition" as "the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation"...and this definition is generally the widely accepted meaning.

Hmong people have allowed 12 year older or younger to marry for as long as we can remember. It has been passed from generation to generation. By definition, this is a TRADITION. Do you not understand or accept this fact? The girl got married at the age of 12, either under her own wishes or her parents and her parents consented to it. If this is not Tradition, where in the law books of California can you tell me that a 12 year old is allow to marry?

As for your second point, if you are going to quote me... you should quote all of what I said. What I said was that EVERYONE has some blame in this story, that's what I said. The HUSBAND, the PARENTS, Hmong traditions and Yes, even the WIFE, to some extent... all contributed to this tragic event.

In this USA, and the current state when story took place... A girl under 18 years of age is consider a minor. A minor, by definition, has to obey the commands and wishes of her parents, especially when her life or her health is in danger. To do otherwise, her parents could be jail for child neglect, child endangerment, or even the more serious charge of child abuse.

Just for a second... let me play along with you and your logic. Would I rather call the cops and have her put in a foster home? DAM right I would, if it meant saving her live. And in this case, perhaps maybe it would have saved her life. Somehow, I truly doubt your example was the severity in this case when this girl first got married.

Kids are just that, they are kids... and they will make mistakes. As parents, as adults, as guardians... it is up to us to steer them in the right direction, it is our responsibility to do the right thing, even when they don't see it.