Fresno police release more details about murder-suicide in fresno cal

[Sydney]

Perhaps I am not understanding your definition of Tradition here... maybe you can explain it to us.

Google translates "Tradition" as "the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation"...and this definition is generally the widely accepted meaning.

Hmong people have allowed 12 year older or younger to marry for as long as we can remember. It has been passed from generation to generation. By definition, this is a TRADITION. Do you not understand or accept this fact? The girl got married at the age of 12, either under her own wishes or her parents and her parents consented to it. If this is not Tradition, where in the law books of California can you tell me that a 12 year old is allow to marry?

As for your second point, if you are going to quote me... you should quote all of what I said. What I said was that EVERYONE has some blame in this story, that's what I said. The HUSBAND, the PARENTS, Hmong traditions and Yes, even the WIFE, to some extent... all contributed to this tragic event.

In this USA, and the current state when story took place... A girl under 18 years of age is consider a minor. A minor, by definition, has to obey the commands and wishes of her parents, especially when her life or her health is in danger. To do otherwise, her parents could be jail for child neglect, child endangerment, or even the more serious charge of child abuse.

Just for a second... let me play along with you and your logic. Would I rather call the cops and have her put in a foster home? DAM right I would, if it meant saving her live. And in this case, perhaps maybe it would have saved her life. Somehow, I truly doubt your example was the severity in this case when this girl first got married.

Kids are just that, they are kids... and they will make mistakes. As parents, as adults, as guardians... it is up to us to steer them in the right direction, it is our responsibility to do the right thing, even when they don't see it.

You sir are well deserving of an applaud.  I like the way you explain things.  Well done. 

[Sydney]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_laws_in_the_United_States

For those who are using Hmong tradition to marry young children off, you know who you are out there and I hope you don't get caught.  Because if you do, boy oh boy, some of the scariest charges could be:  Child exploitation, child sexual abuse, child maltreatment, and child endangerment.  Nobody wants those charges on their records.

See a quote from the above link regarding to a minor's inability to consent.

Minors' inability to consent[edit]

Between adults, most sexual activity does not constitute a criminal offense, unless one of the adults does not consent to the activity. In contrast, minors are unable to give consent under the law. Indeed, the term "minor" refers to a person who has not yet reached majority, the age at which one may give consent in any legal matter (for example, a minor cannot make a valid contract).[7] However, actual laws and the maximum ages that constitute breach of law vary by state. A person engaging in sexual activity with a minor below these proscribed ages (16–18), regardless of that minor's seeming "consent" or compliance, commits an offense (terminology varies). In most states, much more sever offenses and/or sentences exist for cases with young children, approximately under 12–13.

Many states[8] include in their penal codes a "Romeo and Juliet" exception for cases where sexual activity occurs between a young adult and a minor whose ages are within a few years of each other.[9] This exception typically bars charging the young adult with a sex offense, if the young adult did not use force or coercion on the minor and the minor is a teenager.[10]


And please do not tell me you can tell a child wants to be married at 12 years old because she was mature for her age.  That is something only a pedophile would say.

[ok-fine-version2]

Murder-suicides are not unique to Hmong people, so please don't try too hard to say it's our "tradition" that causes this to occur. There are plenty of factors that help create an environment where domestic violence will thrive but ultimately, the most important factor is the violent person him/herself. Secondly, you cannot take culture out of the equation and try to say the law is the law. America's own history of child brides and the evolution of laws to protect "minors," from consenting to sexual activity came to be because people began to learn that there was such a thing as the adolescent years. Now, not too long ago it was perfectly legal for a 7 year old to consent to sex in the State of Delaware. Last that I know, MN also allows 16 yr olds to marry each other as well.

Although child brides are part of our history, many of us have learned to depart from that practice because we acquired the info/knowledge that wasn't provided nor available to our parents: that a child's maturity isn't fully develope as soon as the child hits puberty. To look back with such a stupid mindset and look down upon your own people just because you think your education actually did you some good only shows that you really didn't learn anything at all!

You don't need to quote the laws of this country, you know, the laws that the dominant culture created. We know it's illegal.

Most states don't recognize Hmong marriages... So if the marriage isn't recognized, what laws are broken here? The only thing you can probably go after the family with is to turn that child into a Juvie or ward of the state. Yet, if you work in the child's protection field, you'll know the preference there is to educate and keep the child in the home.

What I want to know is if you can explain to me who and what's to blame when a white America kills his white spouse/SO in the same murder-suicide act. Please tell me which tradition you'll like to blame for this since it wasn't too long ago that a murder-suicide like this was in the news.

 



 

[Sydney]

Murder-suicides are not unique to Hmong people, so please don't try too hard to say it's our "tradition" that causes this to occur. There are plenty of factors that help create an environment where domestic violence will thrive but ultimately, the most important factor is the violent person him/herself. Secondly, you cannot take culture out of the equation and try to say the law is the law. America's own history of child brides and the evolution of laws to protect "minors," from consenting to sexual activity came to be because people began to learn that there was such a thing as the adolescent years. Now, not too long ago it was perfectly legal for a 7 year old to consent to sex in the State of Delaware. Last that I know, MN also allows 16 yr olds to marry each other as well.

Although child brides are part of our history, many of us have learned to depart from that practice because we acquired the info/knowledge that wasn't provided nor available to our parents: that a child's maturity isn't fully develope as soon as the child hits puberty. To look back with such a stupid mindset and look down upon your own people just because you think your education actually did you some good only shows that you really didn't learn anything at all!

You don't need to quote the laws of this country, you know, the laws that the dominant culture created. We know it's illegal.

Most states don't recognize Hmong marriages... So if the marriage isn't recognized, what laws are broken here? The only thing you can probably go after the family with is to turn that child into a Juvie or ward of the state. Yet, if you work in the child's protection field, you'll know the preference there is to educate and keep the child in the home.

What I want to know is if you can explain to me who and what's to blame when a white America kills his white spouse/SO in the same murder-suicide act. Please tell me which tradition you'll like to blame for this since it wasn't too long ago that a murder-suicide like this was in the news.
 

[ok-fine-version2]

Did you not read the entire thing or can we just summarize that you like to cherry pick?

[Sydney]

Did you not read the entire thing or can we just summarize that you like to cherry pick?

I'm working on my photobucket as well as reading Ph concurrently.  Don't mind me if I'm too busy to respond to you, but it would be interesting to read that article you reference about a 7 year old  who was consented to have sex in the State of Delaware.  I doubt it was true.

[Sydney]

Well, just in case, Ph people actually believe about that reference point about the 7 year old who was consented to have sex in the state of Delaware, I googled it and nada.  I could not find any supported article.  Zippo.  Zilch.  Zero.  You would think that if such remark was true, it would have been a hot case on the news non-stopped, right?  Now, if that reference point isn't proven truthful, everything sounds more like a lie, right? 

How can one argue with a lie, except with facts!

Since I almost got bamboozled into believe in something that sounds too good to be true, the only thing that I can find is the age of consent:  Believe in whatever you want, a fact is a fact.  Don't make up lies.  That is just so pathetic!

http://www.ageofconsent.us/

[ok-fine-version2]

 

Ummm, lacking in comprehension skills much?

If someone says, "history," and "evolution," you should Google the history of the age of consent laws in the United States. And no, I'm not going to link it because it would actually be more beneficial for you to read around. No where did I say there was actually a seven yr old in Delaware who made the press.

I didn't think you would be able to articulate a reasonable response anyway, so run off to the General Discussion area and whine, ok? You are acting like you were born yesterday.

[Sydney]

Ummm, lacking in comprehension skills much?

If someone says, "history," and "evolution," you should Google the history of the age of consent laws in the United States. And no, I'm not going to link it because it would actually be more beneficial for you to read around. No where did I say there was actually a seven yr old in Delaware who made the press.

I didn't think you would be able to articulate a reasonable response anyway, so run off to the General Discussion area and whine, ok? You are acting like you were born yesterday.

Its my lunch time. 

So, I see that you are unable to provide evidence of your reference point for the 7 year old case that happened "not too long ago".   It appears that you are projecting unproven speculations, after speculations.  No wonder you speak with much lies. You lack much credibility!  Period.  You are using a case scenario to support the practice of child bride in this country where you know it is illegal.  People like you should be punished.  I hope you don't work in child social service, because you don't care for the welfare of kids under 18 years old.   

I know I don't support child bride and I stand against it.  You obviously have a problem if you think we are living in the past during the year of 2015.   

[ok-fine-version2]

Its my lunch time. 

So, I see that you are unable to provide evidence of your reference point for the 7 year old case that happened "not too long ago".   It appears that you are projecting unproven speculations, after speculations.  No wonder you speak with much lies. You lack much credibility!  Period.  You are using a case scenario to support the practice of child bride in this country where you know it is illegal.  People like you should be punished.  I hope you don't work in child social service, because you don't care for the welfare of kids under 18 years old.   

I know I don't support child bride and I stand against it.  You obviously have a problem if you think we are living in the past during the year of 2015.   

You have a very pathetic way of distorting things.

Sydney, -1

[Sydney]

You have a very pathetic way of distorting things.

Sydney, -1

You shouldn't have made false claim where you can't back it up.  Do you even know how flawed you sound?

If a child/minor does not have the ability to consent to sex or marriage, why would you stated that a 7 year old consented to sex in the state of Delaware?  That point of reference gave you away.  You made yourself look pathetic, if not a liar. 

By the way, the consenting age in Delaware is 18. 

I have been working in the human service field for many years.  I am very passionate about family stability and child welfare.  If I lack something, I'm more than happy to learn.  If you have something worth discussing, please do share in a more reasonable fashion.  Just don't come across as a show off with mouthful of lies. 

What I did learn through all these argument is that maybe I will let people shoot themselves in the foot if they so want to keep up with certain corruptions.  I have put in enough good faith and effort to try to reason with people. 

You have a good day too.    

[VillainousHero]

There is no discussion to end the discussion...w hen the participants can't even be courteous enough to share opinions and maintain a healthy discussion.

The petty way of saying: prove it, prove this, prove that...referen ce this, reference that...that's your problem, it's not my problem, etc.,..

Petty personal attacks: do I need to list these?  Know the moment when someone is out of content or take things out of context...Not everyone has a stuck up opinion.  Stop it with the you this, you that accusations.

So instead of just looking at the news report and questioning the accuracy of those reports...aski ng for a dissection, discussion, of whatnot customs and traditions in good faith with wonderful facts that opposes each other: 18 yrs old voting rights, emancipated minor, age of consent law...how wonderful... yeah end of discussion.

Now since it's a mockery... This farce of a show that belittles each other.  There's nothing to further discuss.

[ok-fine-version2]

VillainousHero, I get that your trying to make a point here about not getting into petty arguments with other members but, I disagree on stopping the "discussion" just because personal remarks will get thrown around. This is actually a very healthy discussion to have with Hmong people who see their kind through whitewashed eyes. The personal attacks, prove this, prove that and failure to respond to the questions that are posed are all just defense mechansims. I don't take things personal but if my words are misread/interpreted and twisted around, I don't have any qualms about pointing out such error either.

You shouldn't have made false claim where you can't back it up.  Do you even know how flawed you sound?

If a child/minor does not have the ability to consent to sex or marriage, why would you stated that a 7 year old consented to sex in the state of Delaware?  That point of reference gave you away.  You made yourself look pathetic, if not a liar. 

By the way, the consenting age in Delaware is 18. 

I have been working in the human service field for many years.  I am very passionate about family stability and child welfare.  If I lack something, I'm more than happy to learn.  If you have something worth discussing, please do share in a more reasonable fashion.  Just don't come across as a show off with mouthful of lies. 

What I did learn through all these argument is that maybe I will let people shoot themselves in the foot if they so want to keep up with certain corruptions.  I have put in enough good faith and effort to try to reason with people. 

You have a good day too.    

My exact words were:

America's own history of child brides and the evolution of laws to protect "minors," from consenting to sexual activity came to be because people began to learn that there was such a thing as the adolescent years. Now, not too long ago it was perfectly legal for a 7 year old to consent to sex in the State of Delaware.

A liar. A show off.  I haven't even began to personally insult you yet.  If my points made it appear as though I'm a show off, it's because  you  realize there's a lot of things you're missing in drawing your conclusion and the relevance of your claim in regards to this issue. I've already said it before, and I say it in simplier terms: Your rants up to this point are irrelevant. There is a better topic for you to rely your passionate rants. If you scroll a few posts down in the news section, you will find it.

If the victim was underage when she died, you can hold her parents responsible but she was a fully grown adult who was capable of making life decisions on her own,  and whatever happened b/w and her estranged husband are issues beyond your understanding; issues that I have no interest speculating about.

You said that you work in the human services field so to me, that is more reason to believe that you need to be more cautious about pitting blame against an entire group of people because of ONE individual's action. Is it a norm in Hmong American society to kill our spouses or something? It's not.  This event was a tragedy but definitely nothing that should represent us. The other tragedy that always seem to follow suit when rare events like these occur in the Hmong community is the ignorant cultural witch hunting you imbeciles do. Through your white washed eyes, you forget that white American have a culture too, but do you go blaming some tradition for the exact act? DO YOU?

Lastly, you seem to think everyone who finds fault in your opinion is a child bride supporter. What a joke.

[VillainousHero]

LOL...I'm probably more whitewashed then anyone, but I'm not going to get petty with a few words and take them out of context.  If one wants to discuss with professionalis m and experience then treat others to that same professionalis m and value their experience as well.  We are all applying it to what little information upon news release and questioning the validity of such information.  The media portrayal is down right insulting, but that a news ringer that gets attention.  Maybe I was too naïve to think that we were all going to learn from each other's POV's, but then the personal stuff comes out like arrogant teenage bantering.

I don't know where I'm going with this anymore...just bores me now.

[ok-fine-version2]

LOL...I'm probably more whitewashed then anyone, but I'm not going to get petty with a few words and take them out of context.  If one wants to discuss with professionalis m and experience then treat others to that same professionalis m and value their experience as well.  We are all applying it to what little information upon news release and questioning the validity of such information.  The media portrayal is down right insulting, but that a news ringer that gets attention.  Maybe I was too naïve to think that we were all going to learn from each other's POV's, but then the personal stuff comes out like arrogant teenage bantering.

I don't know where I'm going with this anymore...just bores me now.

LOL, it's ok, VillainousHero . I didn't want to say much either but come on now. Five pages later and you still can't give your viewers a valid argument or even an explanation about how eliminating the child bride practice would solve murder-suicides and domestic abuse in the Hmong community.   

You're correct about the media portrayal part. Something like this happens and it's a sudden culture clash, like OUR culture is the reason he killed his wife? LOL. Why is it that some people are so quick to find something wrong with the Hmong culture when shit like this happens? If you google non-Hmong murder suicides that occurred this month, these news outlets don't even mention the word, "culture." Yet, the majority of domestic murder-suicides in the United States, a country that has laws to protect children and child brides, are committed by white men. (see the National Criminal Justice Reference Service for my source )