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Author Topic: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?  (Read 5924 times)

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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2018, 12:32:33 PM »
In the absence of a Creator, everything is permissible. Does that mean all atheist will become serial killers? Nah... it just means that there's no ethical reason why they shouldn't become serial killers. They can give all sorts of reasons not to become serial killers - pragmatic, societal, personal, but none of those reasons are objectively binding on the atheist in the way that objective moral values and duties are. If atheism is true, human life is not intrinsically valuable like it is if weíre made in God's image.

Atheists can view human life as intrinsically valuable if they want, but there's no moral reason why they must. ^^

Atheists are free to refrain from murder, but there's no objectively binding command that means they have to either. ^^

And if atheism is true, thereís nothing to hold murderers ultimately accountable for their actions anyway. The atheist who hates murder and fights against it... is ultimately no better off than the atheist who does murder - they and everyone they influence will all end up as nothing more than worm food.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2018, 12:59:15 PM »
of course god is dead
how do you explain his absence?

Romans 1



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline YeejKoob13

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2018, 06:47:56 PM »
If the christians gods die, then only positives will occur for the Hmong, I would think. Less cultural assimilation. Less conflicts between Hmong and Meos. Thats one less big headache for us to extricate from our problems.



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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2018, 06:26:40 PM »
In the absence of a Creator, everything is permissible. Does that mean all atheist will become serial killers? Nah... it just means that there's no ethical reason why they shouldn't become serial killers. They can give all sorts of reasons not to become serial killers - pragmatic, societal, personal, but none of those reasons are objectively binding on the atheist in the way that objective moral values and duties are.


If atheism is true, human life is not intrinsically valuable like it is if weíre made in God's image.

Atheists can view human life as intrinsically valuable if they want, but there's no moral reason why they must. ^^

Atheists are free to refrain from murder, but there's no objectively binding command that means they have to either. ^^

And if atheism is true, thereís nothing to hold murderers ultimately accountable for their actions anyway. The atheist who hates murder and fights against it... is ultimately no better off than the atheist who does murder - they and everyone they influence will all end up as nothing more than worm food.

This proves that theist, especially Christians are immoral people. They do the  deeds not because it is good and/or the right thing to do, instead they do it out of fear of hell. You yourself just showed that you're amoral for saying that a murderer is the same as someone who fight against a murderer. And this is with your god "existing "



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Offline TheAfterLife

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2018, 04:20:57 PM »
the Bible is nothing more than an Animal Farm book. The thickness of man's sin are all in the Old Testament.



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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2018, 05:49:26 PM »
This proves that theist, especially Christians are immoral people. They do the  deeds not because it is good and/or the right thing to do, instead they do it out of fear of hell. You yourself just showed that you're amoral for saying that a murderer is the same as someone who fight against a murderer. And this is with your god "existing "

Fear of hell can be a good thing and prevents people from murder. Imagine what people would have done if there was no God?





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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2018, 03:28:04 AM »
Fear of hell can be a good thing and prevents people from murder. Imagine what people would have done if there was no God?

That's why fear of hell isn't good. You just gave an example why. If the reason for not committing murder is out of fear,  then you never believed that it was wrong in committing murder. You were never a moral person to begin with. But if you didn't commit murder because you believe that it's wrong, then whether there is god or not, you won't commit murder. That's why some atheists don't commit murder even though they don't believe in a god or hell.



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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2018, 11:19:38 PM »
That's why fear of hell isn't good. You just gave an example why. If the reason for not committing murder is out of fear,  then you never believed that it was wrong in committing murder. You were never a moral person to begin with. But if you didn't commit murder because you believe that it's wrong, then whether there is god or not, you won't commit murder. That's why some atheists don't commit murder even though they don't believe in a god or hell.

If I'm driving, I don't want to DUI or I will get arrested. It doesn't mean I never believed that it was wrong.

Going to hell is the consequences of our sin. Like if you rob a bank, you go to jail. Don't want to go to jail, then don't rob a bank.

We all know murder is wrong because we're made in the image of God. I'm not saying that atheists need to believe God to tell them murder is wrong.  The argument isn't about belief in God. The argument is that apart from Godís existence there's no such thing as objective moral value or accountability . If there is no God, then murder is not wrong.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2018, 03:57:33 AM »
If I'm driving, I don't want to DUI or I will get arrested. It doesn't mean I never believed that it was wrong.
If you based it off of fear only, then yes,  it does.

Going to hell is the consequences of our sin. Like if you rob a bank, you go to jail. Don't want to go to jail, then don't rob a bank.
If someone really want to rob a bank and know that they are not going to jail, they will rob a bank.

We all know murder is wrong because we're made in the image of God. I'm not saying that atheists need to believe God to tell them murder is wrong.  The argument isn't about belief in God. The argument is that apart from Godís existence there's no such thing as objective moral value or accountability . If there is no God, then murder is not wrong.

Who said anything about arguing whether god exist or not?
But you still have to show evidence for, "If there is no God, then murder is not wrong." Which you haven't.

If you believe something is morally wrong objectively,  then it doesn't matter if god exist or not, it will still be wrong.

Like I said, if never commit murder because you fear going to hell, then one day you learned that god dies and doesn't exist anymore and he can't send you to hell and then you start murdering people. This means that you were never a moral person.

The example you're giving arguing from authority, in which morality is not objective because what's right or wrong is based on solely on how god feels at that moment. One day murder can be wrong and different day it can change to be right.

Two words, "the purge"



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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2018, 07:44:49 AM »
Who said anything about arguing whether god exist or not?
But you still have to show evidence for, "If there is no God, then murder is not wrong." Which you haven't.

If you believe something is morally wrong objectively,  then it doesn't matter if god exist or not, it will still be wrong.

Like I said, if never commit murder because you fear going to hell, then one day you learned that god dies and doesn't exist anymore and he can't send you to hell and then you start murdering people. This means that you were never a moral person.

The example you're giving arguing from authority, in which morality is not objective because what's right or wrong is based on solely on how god feels at that moment. One day murder can be wrong and different day it can change to be right.

Two words, "the purge"

Okay, let me go with your logic. Granted, I wasn't morally good before I came to faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe I realized how sinful my lifestyle was and needed forgiveness.

So you think you are morally good and that's why you don't believe in God?

Do you know that none doeth good? Even if think we are a good person, that's only because we compare ourselves to other people. Not before God.

I think God would rather accept a person who acknowledge their sin and come into repentance than someone who doesn't realize they are a sinner. It's called self righteous.

People can apparently still chose to the rob the bank knowing they could get away with it. Because there is no fear of God in them. If there is no God then there is no moral objective and accountability in their worldview.

If I knew that God actually does not exist, then life and everything else is utterly meaningless. I think Nietzsche understood this, he was willing to follow his worldview to its logical conclusions. Few atheists are willing to do that because they can't bear the thought of living it out. They'd do whatever they want and have no guilt of doing them and everything is legal. Except that such a thing is not logically possible.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2018, 07:48:00 AM »
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. Objective morals exist
3. Therefore God exists

This argument could still be true even if the Bible were filled with errors and contradictions, or the biblical God were inconsistent with the moral argument. Now, I think the biblical God is consistent with the moral argument, and the Bible is perfectly trustworthy, but the point is that objections to the Bible do not disprove this argument.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2018, 06:24:57 AM »
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. Objective morals exist
3. Therefore God exists

This argument could still be true even if the Bible were filled with errors and contradictions, or the biblical God were inconsistent with the moral argument. Now, I think the biblical God is consistent with the moral argument, and the Bible is perfectly trustworthy, but the point is that objections to the Bible do not disprove this argument.

Apparently you don't understand the divine command theory.  First of all,  what you said and using your example, you're actually contradicting the theory.  And second,  it's relevant to the context of this topic.



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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2018, 10:13:12 AM »
Okay, let me go with your logic. Granted, I wasn't morally good before I came to faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe I realized how sinful my lifestyle was and needed forgiveness. nope. That's not my logic. I never said anything about you not being a moral person before you have faith in god. You are an amoral person whether it was before or during your belief in god. This is because you are only doing things out of fear.

So you think you are morally good and that's why you don't believe in God? No, that's not the reason why I don't believe in god. Morality has nothing to do with believing or not believing in god.

Do you know that none doeth good? Even if think we are a good person, that's only because we compare ourselves to other people. Not before God.

I think God would rather accept a person who acknowledge their sin and come into repentance than someone who doesn't realize they are a sinner. It's called self righteous. Actually, god rather accept a person who does not to do bad things because he knows that it is wrong and choose not to do it. That's why Noah was saved.

People can apparently still chose to the rob the bank knowing they could get away with it. Because there is no fear of God in them. That's why they are not a moral person. A moral person will still choose to not rob a bank even if they know they can get away with it. That's the difference between being moral and immoral. If there is no God then there is no moral objective and accountability in their worldview. And This would mean that morality is subjective.

If I knew that God actually does not exist, then life and everything else is utterly meaningless
. So everything is subjective. But, by doing what you said, (above in bold), you just described yourself as being self righteous. And this is why fear isn't a good thing. This is the result of fear. You follow "rules" commanded by god only out of fear so your life was/is always meaningless from the start. Morality is thrown out the window. So you just shown that objective morality doesn't exist. And this is why your argument for divine command theory fails because your premise "2. Objective morals exist" fails. Also, it was a false dichotomy to begin with.  even if objective morality I think Nietzsche understood this, he was willing to follow his worldview to its logical conclusions. Few atheists are willing to do that because they can't bear the thought of living it out. They'd do whatever they want and have no guilt of doing them and everything is legal. Except that such a thing is not logically possible.

.




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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2018, 10:19:33 AM »
Fear of hell can be a good thing and prevents people from murder. Imagine what people would have done if there was no God?

The moral atheists will stay the same and not murder. The moral theists will stay the same not commit murder. The immoral people who didn't commit murder because they were afraid of going to hell would commit murder because they were immoral to begin with even when they believed in a hell.



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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2018, 02:36:15 PM »
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. Objective morals exist
3. Therefore God exists

This argument could still be true even if the Bible were filled with errors and contradictions, or the biblical God were inconsistent with the moral argument. Now, I think the biblical God is consistent with the moral argument, and the Bible is perfectly trustworthy, but the point is that objections to the Bible do not disprove this argument.

There's no need to mention the bible. The structure of your argument is fallacious because it's circular reasoning



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