"I doubt the Ch'u Kingdom was Hmong, even if you find similarities in it to Hmong practices. One thing that indicates it's not Hmong is just the very fact of the artwork. Hmong people never painted our history in this manner; rather, we have told our stories and embroidered them with threads, not with paints."

Exactly, I've read over and over again about Hmong people using the style of batik. I can't remember which book I first read it in since it was about 10 years ago but I was able to google some articles with references to Hmong using batik:

http://www.smm.org/buzz/museum/object/2003_11_hmong_batik_panel

http://www.hotelvietnamonline.com/textiles/hmong_batik.htm

http://www.camacrafts.org/about_b.htm

http://www.pbs.org/splithorn/hmong.html

Anyway, just thought I'd share.

My point is that Hmong people are not exclusive to embroidery. It's always been my belief that IF someone supports a statement with another statement that is not completely true, that statement loses it's validation.

Username:

Someone stated:

"I doubt the Ch'u Kingdom was Hmong, even if you find similarities in it to Hmong practices. One thing that indicates it's not Hmong is just the very fact of the artwork. Hmong people never painted our history in this manner; rather, we have told our stories and embroidered them with threads, not with paints."

I know, I didn't explain myself clearly enough. What I mean to say is that because Hmong people are not exclusive to embroidery, who's to say we never painted? I believe in possibilities and I believe in the possibility that the Ch'u Kingdom could be Hmong. If someone is going to take that possibility away from me, at least give me a validated reason. I'm not trying to discredit this person or judge this person for making that statement. I'm like that kid that never stops asking why. I have an insatiable thirst for knowledge sometimes and need for things to be explained in a way that's not borderline "Because I said so" kind of way.

Some good speculations here. Here's my 3 cents... There's no standing authority on this subject. There are a lot of hear say with absolutely no research. You can not read books and claim that is your research. As books are not accurate on Hmong/Miao.

Symbols belonging to those artifacts are more common and is not exclusive to the Hmong/Miao. If Hmong were part of a kingdom/dynasty, I believe it would be rooted much deeper in our oral history.

I think the appropriate way to tackle this would be to have a distingish Hmong anthropoligist go back to China and trace the roots. Dig up site or old Hmong villages, perform DNA test, and other scientific methods I'm not familiar with. Until someone dedicate their life for the truth and not Hmong glory we won't figure out what really happen.

Thank goodness this isnt my field. But I would donate to the cause. Some day it will come to that. We simply can not rely on others to write our own history.

Many of us already know what needs to be done, the point of topics like these is to help spread interest about Hmong History and therefore motivating the new generations to take upon such tasks you mentioned.

I'm all for that

Haven't read this for a while.

Truth of the matter is, this is already or should I say been done and still in progress/process. However, there is no Hmong or what we, Western Hmong, would consider a distinguished Western Hmong intellect (scholar) deeply and dare I say passionately involved whether to spearhead or be intimately involved in the research. Why? Lots of reason really but one that trumps them all - insufficient funding or none period. That is not to say our Miao-Chinese counterparts are not or have not researched Hmong/Miao history. They have - diligently for decades now.  In fact, most if not all the recent information we know and have to date are loose translation, interpretation, or acknowledgemen ts from the scholarly works (research) of our Miao-Chinese compatriots. Now as to whether we, Western Hmong, fully accept and acknowledge their scholarly work - that is another story. Until further and Western Hmong scholars are deeply involved, I for one must take into consideration the ground work and research of our Miao-Chinese scholars which according to my own research does coincide with Hmong oral history and that done by Caucasian scholars.

Almost forgot, there has been DNA tests done. A full report was given on it as well. (It's on the internet also. Search for it if you truly want to know.) The facts may shock you if you can get pass all the technical jargon.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that for now. Of course this still does not answer the question about the Ch'u Kingdom. More importantly, does it really matter whether or not it is Hmong or not? Not by my standards, only that it give creditability to our ancient history and existence in ancient China.

I hope that some day we can trace back to our origin.  It's good to know where you are from and your history.

I hope if not already done so by National Geographic to do a full research on Hmong.

I think that what we have here is although interesting, can never be proven, either from within the historical records or from without in Hmong oracular knowledge. Because the historical records make no point of identifying the Hmong to the Chu Kingdom, we are only speculating when we say there is a connection between the two. Similarities in clothing patterns are not definitive proof. Could there not be other ethnic groups who cultural practices are similar to the Hmong and whose practices may have been borrowed from the Hmong? Moreover, just because our parents say that there was once something, such as a Hmong king, we can't so sure. What if the information was fabricated? What if the information had distorted over time? What if, exposure to outside sources and collaboration to peoples, like what we have here in this forum when we talk about Hmong culture, made something that is now what once wasn't the case? There may be some truths to what they say and believe in, but something transmitted through time may not be accurate at all.

  ... I make no claim to be a Hmong cultural expert but the video has little or no relevance to Hmong spiritual/funeral beliefs whatsoever that I am aware of etc. Unless you are inferring that the "statue" in the video is suppose to be "Ntxiv Nyoog" of which there is no connection or relationship to my knowledge. Hmong do not believe in a heaven and hell as assumed in the video or of the statue with the horns/antlers and its purpose etc.

You guys remind me of the black israelites

Guys,

WATCH THIS MOVIE:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6ELA0Y9U9A&feature=related[url]] <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/B6ELA0Y9U9A&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/B6ELA0Y9U9A&rel=1</a>

or else, here:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/B6ELA0Y9U9A&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/B6ELA0Y9U9A&rel=1</a>

I believe this will tell you guys alot about the CHU Kingdom and if it's a part of the Hmong civilization.

hmmm...I always kinda frown when someone starts claiming this from here and that from there to be hmong...kinda trying claim someone else's history as our own...

I understand why, some people are looking for something to fill the void that is our history, something to be proud of, something to say this is who I am...but...

Even though we don't have a clear history documented in books, we do have a history.  This history is the lineage, the blood, the genes in your body that track back to the beginning, to the first Hmong, and even farther back to the first man.  Relics and ruins may be thousands of years old but the genetic information in your genes is even older, passed directly to you from ancestor to ancestor, to give you this life.  Imagine all the faces of your fore-bearers standing behind you, the wear of time on their faces.  See the lives they lived, the people they were, the struggles they endured and persevered through.

You represent them, you are their legacy, you are evidence that they were.  Isn't that enough reason to be proud of who you are?

Seeking one's history is more about learning about one's ancestors. Does a child not have the right to want to know more about who their parents were? The Chu Kingdom theory isn't a random "That's my mom and dad". They have a reason as to why they feel the Chu Kingdom was Hmong and maybe one day when technology catches up with us, we can trace like you say, through genetic research. Burried beneath the earth are still the bones of all our ancestors unless they were burned.

The Chu kingdom is your mom and dad  LOL...and hmong people are a long lost tribe of Israel