Ch'u Kingdom Hmong???

[zoov]

hello! folks im new here and its quite some interesting topic you guys brought it up in here that caught my attention to create an account here  ...anyways i'm interest in this Ch'u Kingdom and know very little about it. it remains only a possible theory that its a Hmong Kingdom below is what i found a T-shape silk excavated in Hunan Province in the 70s believed to be of Ch'u belonging the stories on it is comparable to "Qhuab Kev" i like to know whats everyones input on this topic is Ch'u really a Hmong Kingdom?

http://www.hnmuseum.com/hnmuseum/eng/specialExhibitions/gb/silkpic_3.htm

[Mizan]

I doubt the Ch'u Kingdom was Hmong, even if you find similarities in it to Hmong practices. One thing that indicates it's not Hmong is just the very fact of the artwork. Hmong people never painted our history in this manner; rather, we have told our stories and embroidered them with threats, not with paints.

How can you be so sure?

[zoov]

anyways why i also believe Ch'u was a Hmong State was because of the fact that Ch'u is where Taoism(believing of Tao(?) and the principal of Yin and Yang) were born and if you look deep into our cultures and religion and 'kev caiv dab qhuas' it is highly based on Yin and Yang principal known as Yaj Ceeb(bright, masculine, physical and fire or hot side) and Yeeb Ceeb(nruab Yeeb, dark, feminine, spirit and water or cold side) as its main core. something we shouldnt neglected eh? 

[zoov]

Sorry to go off in a different direction, but it's hard for me to understand why their language is still being grouped with the Hmongic languages. Their language sounds oddly Tai-Kadai-ish.

uh...we might descended from a common ancestor from a far distant past i read somehwere that Pan Hu is a revere character in the Yao's cult. and we also had the story of Pan Hu as our folk stories thats why we 'ua nyuj dab' Yao look and sounds really similiar to us from those i've seen before.

[Mizan]

uh...we might descended from a common ancestor from a far distant past i read somehwere that Pan Hu is a revere character in the Yao's cult. and we also had the story of Pan Hu as our folk stories thats why we 'ua nyuj dab' Yao look and sounds really similiar to us from those i've seen before.

The Iu Mien people are descendants of Pan Hu's children. After Pan Hu and the Chinese princess married, the princess gave birth to 6 sons and 6 daughters. These 12 children became the progenitors of the 12 Mien clans. Today, the Mien have 14 clans - the other two clans are said to be the second sons-in-laws of the Chinese emperor's other daughters.

[Swordplay]

The silk links to Ch'u. After Ch'u overthrew Qin, she restored the six former kingdoms and divided Qin into three. But the leader of Han wanted it all for himself, so he plot to take over all the kingdoms. To do this he turned many of the kingdoms against Ch'u, after Ch'u leader Xiang Yu was killed he finished the other kingdoms off with no opposition. This was known as the Ch'u-Han Contention. The leader of Han then named this new empire the Han Dynasty, he became known as Emperor Gaozu and took credit for overthrowing Qin even though it was Ch'u who defeated their army leading to its collapse.

Yuepheng Xiong talks about this story here:

http://mojthem.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/tdp1-060526-0200.mp3

http://mojthem.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/hmt_monday_091707.mp3

He mentions the movie I sent him called "The Great Conqueror's Concubine"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111760/
IMDB has a poor description but this is what it's about:

The true story of a major turning point in ancient Chinese history is presented in this epic drama covering the destruction of the Qin Dynasty in the late third century B.C. Most specifically the film focuses upon the battle between the Qin and Chu forces in the first half, and in the second it focuses upon the personal competition between the Chu and Han leaders as they fight for control of the territory. ~ Sandra Brennan, All Movie Guide

I thought it was pretty good, in fact they should make it again with modern technology now that they can use the blue and green screens to show how massive the armies back then were.

Even if the Chu Kingdom isn't Hmong they have a fascinating story. Western/Chinese historians consider it a theory, Hmong elders say IT IS Hmong. We just need to prove it, not a problem we're working on it. =)

[Swordplay]

hello! folks im new here and its quite some interesting topic you guys brought it up in here that caught my attention to create an account here  ...anyways i'm interest in this Ch'u Kingdom and know very little about it. it remains only a possible theory that its a Hmong Kingdom below is what i found a T-shape silk excavated in Hunan Province in the 70s believed to be of Ch'u belonging the stories on it is comparable to "Qhuab Kev" i like to know whats everyones input on this topic is Ch'u really a Hmong Kingdom?

http://www.hnmuseum.com/hnmuseum/eng/specialExhibitions/gb/silkpic_3.htm

This may help with your curiousity:



Although that silk piece was found where the Chu Kingdom existed, they trace the time frame to the Han Dynasty when the Chu Kingdom had already ceased to exist.

[Swordplay]

Dej Dag is a poetic tonal twist from Dej Daj= Yellow Water/River.

And Hmong aren't the only shamanistic practitioners in the world. If Ch'u was truely Hmong, well, there are very few left. Notice how small the Hmong Chue (Hmoob Tswb) clan is today. I know one family and there probably are five families--all share one common grandpa.

-The elders say the last Hmong king's name was Chue Chao, this may explain why the Chinese called it the Chu Kingdom.
-The oral story of how Chue Chao died is very similar to the records kept by Chinese historians on Chu's last king.
-Historians suggest San-Miao and the Chu Kingdom's population were the same peoples, Hmong elders say the name of the kingdom was always Peb Hmoob. San Miao literally means Three Hmong, there is no doubt about it.

[Swordplay]

I know how to count up to 10 in Chinese. So I agree: San is Three.

But then 11 and onward are just
10 one
10 two
10 three
10 four, etc.

Simple, eh?

haha.
The Hmong in China say
10 is ibcaug
20 obcaug
30 is pebcaug
and so on

11 would be ibcaug ib
12 would be ibcaug ob
and so on

This is simpler and I wouldn't doubt its origin, I don't know where we got kaum or nees nkaum came from. They sound Lao/Thai

[Havnim]

Wow!  I am soooo freaken amazed at all the knowledge you guys have....or is it just books??

Anyways, I am currently teaching a hmong culture class and would love more information on the history and origins of peb cov Hmoob.  It is very fascinating... .and sometimes kuv wish kom peb nrhiav tau answers to all of our questions tamsim no, tiamsis ua tsis tau li siab xav.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Please add more......

[Swordplay]

Wow!  I am soooo freaken amazed at all the knowledge you guys have....or is it just books??

Anyways, I am currently teaching a hmong culture class and would love more information on the history and origins of peb cov Hmoob.  It is very fascinating... .and sometimes kuv wish kom peb nrhiav tau answers to all of our questions tamsim no, tiamsis ua tsis tau li siab xav.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Please add more......

Most of this stuff is not written down in modern day books because traditionally peb Hmoob kept our history orally. This was because the Chinese prohibited our use of our own written language knowing it would limit our education system in China. So the elders kept our written language secret within the paj ntaub, that's why our parents always stress to wear paj ntaub clothing but eventually overtime most people forget what it was for and they made clothes of their own designs. Some still have the traditional designs though. If you have any questions just PM me I can give you the contact info of the elders who know much more. My Hmoob is limited so please use English for now hehe so sorry, I'm working on it! (I can speak very well, just a rookie at reading Hmoob)

Glad to see more peoples with interest! Awesome to know you're a teacher for our culture.

[zoov]

some interesting source you guys provided here indeed, i'll have to maintain my belief that Ch'u is Hmoob until it is proven to be someone elses. 

[Swordplay]

some interesting source you guys provided here indeed, i'll have to maintain my belief that Ch'u is Hmoob until it is proven to be someone elses. 

Exactly, we are leaning towards Hmong.

what do the chinese historians have to say.

Follow the links, some of the people making the discussions are Chinese historians. But what we do know is there are mixed feelings as with Hmong, some believe it's possible others highly doubt it but not everyone knows all the facts for example they don't know we still have our ancient writing system, we have not shared it with the public yet, only few Hmong know through stories from their parents or grand parents and so on.

That's funny about the Hmong chinese's counting numbers...

For Lao, 10 is Xip. 20 is Xau. 30 is Xamxip. And then it becomes consistent onward: 50 is HaXip because Ha is 5. 60 is HaukXip because Hauk is 6. Etc.

For Thai, 10 is Xip, too. Then 20 is YeeXip. And consistent again onward from 30 on: XamXip because Xam is 3. XeeXip is 40 because Xee is 4.

I don't think the Hmong's Kaum comes from Lao or Thai at all. They are our very unique numbers.

One curious thing is that for all cultures, the numbers 10 and 20 are usually different than the rest. Before that, things are consistent; after that, things are predictable. I don't know why they are different. 

Very interesting, for most cultures so it seems. Yes I've met conflicting ideas of which links to the original, what we use as 10 and 20 or what the Hmong in China use.

[genuinely]

you know it could just be hmong ppl copying the chu dynasty. they were probably just mimicking the stylistic trends at the time and not necessarily the originators.

[chidorix0x]

WOW.. This is really good stuff. I 've been very curious lately and have been reading books and stuff, i even bought china's history books to see if there is any correlation, but nothing like this is written.  Even if these are speculations it's quite logical.  Don't take any offense, i'm still trying to learn as much as i can.

Well, that's awesome that you're "curious" and "reading books and stuff". I'm not sure what books/stuff you have presently but here are some of my recommendation s:  1) Hamilton-Merritt's "Tragic Mountains" - a must read for ANY/ALL Hmong, yeah it's Hmong SE Asia but will be a good foundation to expand on 2) J. Mottin's "History Of The Hmong" 3) Grahams' "Songs And Stories ... Ch'uan Miao" 4)  Tapp, Culas, Lee "The Hmong/Miao Of Asia" 5) T. Vang "A History Of The Hmong", just finished this book, not great but good stuff in the first two chapters.

Well, those are starters if you truly are "curious". (I do hope you'll keep up your "curiosity". I AM and HAVE!!! Most of it is sad but makes me PROUD of my ancestors and who I am - being Hmong/Miao.)

As for the Ch'u Kingdom being Hmong, I have a couple of books that I have yet to read to clarify/solidify this hypothesis but from the sources/references I've come across so far it is NOT entirely Hmong. It was a kingdom of various ethnic minorities unified to defend/fight the invading Chinese (conquerors) which the Hmong/Miao just happened to be the majority in population, though not necessarily the main ruling body (king/queen). It is yet to be proven/determined by the books I have and have yet to read. (Until I know more, I am inclined to believe it was a shared political system without a central figure head/goverment - king or otherwise. More so it is most likely made up of numerous villages and townships with its own governors, mayors, clan leaders etc.)

What's most interesting with respect to the Ch'u Kingdom is the archeological discovery of "Lady Di". I'll let the "curious" research this on their own. One conclusive analysis by experts (Chinese) is that this aristocrate was definitely NOT Chinese.