PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: TheAfterLife on July 28, 2016, 06:25:52 PM
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Did you know that whenever we buried our dead, we do our shaman style before running away from the Chinese. We use stone burial by putting rock to pile up the dead. What the Chinese did in THEIR beliefs is that whenever the person dies, chop off their limbs from pieces to pieces so that the dead won't rise again. They did that to OUR people and OUR graves! What gives them the right to FUK our graves. Recently on the news, Chinese people are using Hmong bones for medicine in some voodoo ritual. That's fuked up! I don't understand why Hmong people China has allowed this to happen to them? Why are we so dumb and isolated from the world? Do we not retaliate?
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Because Hmong are a countriless people. If Hmong people want other people's respect, Hmong people need to attain the same level of technology, have the power to project their own destiny and not hide in America's shadow and be the last citizen. Gotta show some support for Seng Xiong. If a people don't have a dream, they're not people at all...
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Did you know that whenever we buried our dead, we do our shaman style before running away from the Chinese. We use stone burial by putting rock to pile up the dead. What the Chinese did in THEIR beliefs is that whenever the person dies, chop off their limbs from pieces to pieces so that the dead won't rise again. They did that to OUR people and OUR graves! What gives them the right to FUK our graves. Recently on the news, Chinese people are using Hmong bones for medicine in some voodoo ritual. That's fuked up! I don't understand why Hmong people China has allowed this to happen to them? Why are we so dumb and isolated from the world? Do we not retaliate?
Why care? They're dead, rotting corpses... Does not matter what happens or who did what to the graves.
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Shocking, isn't it. When the living dig up the dead. It's never happened before in the course of human history. It's not like there are mounds to be dug up or big stone structures that the dead are entombed in in. Sickening. Them Chinese, Chiyou-killers and land stealers.
IF, it's your family, find a recourse. It's on you if you decide to let whatever happens, happen.
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(http://quotes-lover.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate.-Hate-leads-to-suffering.jpg)
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What happens if they chopped your mother into pieces?
Nothing as her flesh will rot just the same whether whole or pieces...
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This is why I don't like them. Today, I would join side with Vietnam since they have one common enemy. That will be China.
That was sarcasm, btw.
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There is no freedom in any other country except for America. Why is that America has the most freedom than anyone in the world?
Would this be the same facts you used in developing all your theories?
http://theweek.com/speedreads/441508/united-states-ranked-21st-worldwide-personal-freedom (http://theweek.com/speedreads/441508/united-states-ranked-21st-worldwide-personal-freedom)
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This is why I don't like them. Today, I would join side with Vietnam since they have one common enemy. That will be China.
That would be an unwise reason to join Vietnam.
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Because Hmong are a countriless people. If Hmong people want other people's respect, Hmong people need to attain the same level of technology, have the power to project their own destiny and not hide in America's shadow and be the last citizen. Gotta show some support for Seng Xiong. If a people don't have a dream, they're not people at all...
What we need to do is upgrade our thinking. We sit here arguing about how to reinvent the wheel, about how we should get a country of our own. What we need to do is think about the future, not about the past. Trying to get a country of our own is not realistic. Even if we did, what would we trade? Who would we trade with? How would we defend ourselves? If we want to be on the map, we don't need a country, what we need are people who can change the world. If a Hmong person invents technology that sends us to Mars, guess who he or she just put on the human history map? The Hmong. If a Hmong person finds the cure for cancer, guess who he or she just represented? The Hmong.
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What we need to do is upgrade our thinking. We sit here arguing about how to reinvent the wheel, about how we should get a country of our own. What we need to do is think about the future, not about the past. Trying to get a country of our own is not realistic. Even if we did, what would we trade? Who would we trade with? How would we defend ourselves? If we want to be on the map, we don't need a country, what we need are people who can change the world. If a Hmong person invents technology that sends us to Mars, guess who he or she just put on the human history map? The Hmong. If a Hmong person finds the cure for cancer, guess who he or she just represented? The Hmong.
I'm trying hard to be creative, innovative and accept your line of thinking, but I can't seem to grasp how a countryless people (thus no autonomy) can continue to keep their identities for generations and millenniums to come when they don't have anything concrete to hold onto (such as country that specifically identifies them for the rest of the world to know, see, and accept), all the while their culture keeps on eroding away as assimilation forces encroach, and fast. Everywhere I look I just see more and more intermarriages and cultural extinction (like Christianity converting Hmong ppl or Hmong kids just losing the language and traditions)... With this trend and looking at it in the long run, like centuries from now, will there even be people who identify themselves as Hmong around then? Or will they just be Americans, Canadians, French, Chinese of Hmong descent, if that?,,, You also need a state to help protect and perpetuate the Hmong cultural identities, no? So when somebody comes up with a world changing invention the other ppl of the world can say yes that guy/gal from Hmongland, hence Hmong, did that.
With your examples up above, I'm thinking that if a Hmong person (living in America?) finds a cure for cancer or builds a ship to Mars and beyond, the history books will say "An American (since s/she is from America) by the name of so and so (and s/he probably a English/American first name as well) did so and so. The Hmong identity would probably be relegated as secondary only, if that.
To be creative in thinking and making the best of a bad situation is a consolation only, while having the country/state (and what it embodies) is the real prize, imo.
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Did you know that whenever we buried our dead, we do our shaman style before running away from the Chinese. We use stone burial by putting rock to pile up the dead. What the Chinese did in THEIR beliefs is that whenever the person dies, chop off their limbs from pieces to pieces so that the dead won't rise again. They did that to OUR people and OUR graves! What gives them the right to FUK our graves. Recently on the news, Chinese people are using Hmong bones for medicine in some voodoo ritual. That's fuked up! I don't understand why Hmong people China has allowed this to happen to them? Why are we so dumb and isolated from the world? Do we not retaliate?
Similar to you and others letting foreign christians/christianities mentally violating you. And this is why I'm trying to help you because kuv mob mob siab thaum pom nej mag dag. Thaum nej raug luag dag ces hos ua rau peb Hmoob suavdaws poob phlu. But all I get is ire from you guys.
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Uh, religion doesn't destroy anyone's culture. According to the American Constitution, religion has been separated from government and state laws. Therefore, I don't mind about having more than one religion. It's not the religion; it's what other cultures that practice without religion are attacking us. Culture vs. Religion is far different. Culture, I will say, "Yes, we should put some boundary on our people." As for religion, why against that?
I am a Christian; however, that doesn't mean I will automatically lose my identity. I don't want to lose my ID, nor losing my history and heritage. It's fine about the religion since as a Hmong person, I don't want to look like a anti-religious bigot. It's best for religion to be separated on its own.
You have LOST your Hmong cultural identity. Maybe not all, but most.
Of course religion is and part of culture. I will give you an analogy. Culture is like the body (entire body, from head to toe), while religion is a subset or part of it, such as the head, or torso, but it still belongs to the overall body. This should be obvious.
Hmong do not have a country, unlike Americans, so you can't entirely compare what we classify as a Hmong to that of an American. The difference here is that America has a defined territorial border, and governing it is a constitution. Anyone living within this border, whether white, black, yellow, etc, taking up whatever religion, is considered an American, as long as they meet the legal requirements of the land. It's a simple and clear cut definition.
To define Hmong is a bit more narrow or loose, depending on your view. We have no state. No place where someone can point his/her finger to and say ah-ha there's Hmongland, and anyone from there is a Hmong. Thus all we can do, and what we have been doing, is use culture (language, traditions, religion/supernatural beliefs, arts, etc) to define us and separate us from others. Think about it. These are what keep us together as a nation (nation is a group of ppl affiliated together, and don't confuse this with state, which is a defined territory which belongs to the said ppl). All throughout history we had/have similar "religious beliefs", that is until the 19th century when the white christians came and divided the ppl into two groups, of which the converters began self-hating... So when you turn into a christian you have SUBTRACTED and ERASED so many Hmong cultural practices (mostly having to do with the supernaturals) and replaced them with a foreign one. Do you or your parent have the xwmkab in the house? How about noj pebcaug for your place? Call spirits back for yourself or your kids and family members? I gave you those examples already in many of my posts in the religion section. If you don't even practice these traditions anymore then are you even really Hmong, as you don't even fit into the definition anymore. Worst, you turn around and ridicule these Hmongess (for lack of better word)... So how can you be Hmong still when you intentionally rip these features out of your identity?... This is akin to someone revoking their American citizenship (not exactly, but similar) and still calling himself an American afterwards... You haven't done enough thinking about this. When you do you will see what I'm saying.
And you can't even really use genetics or "ntshav Hmoob" (which I know you think is the umbrella covering us all together) because so many of us have other dna components from Chinese, Viets, Lao, and even other non-Asians (from intermarriages/breeding). So "blood wise" we have differing degrees of genes. Even some Lao or Khmu over time have culturally transformed into Hmong (like they were adopted, or one of the parent is a Hmong). It's a hodgepodge with no real consistency.
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Again, religion doesn't affect the nation. America is doing this just fine if we adopt that system to push out religion on their own boundaries. If you reject ALL religion except for your own--that's IF we have a country--the world will you as a stupid, anti-religious man who doesn't tolerate other religion. The only religion that I will forbid will be muslim is because they don't do anything that is fair. If they don't want our religion in their country, then I will not allow theirs in my country. I will allow someone's religion to be in MY country if they allow ours. That is what I see fair of religion.
Americans have the United States of America as a country. They are pegged to this land and it's this that defines them. The people within can argue and differ here and there on politics and religions, etc, but the territorial integrity of the land remains intact, and because of this America still exists... If later on in the future some other nation/state or the Mexicans take over it, it will be called something else, and so with this the American "ethnicity/identity" is wiped off,,, Another name will be given,,, just like many other people or empires of the past.
Hmong do not have land, nothing so concrete. To compare Hmong to Americans is like the 50 states representing the many cultural aspects of what define Hmong. When a Hmong gets converted into christianity it's like losing the land of Texas, California, New York, so and so, with only maybe Hawaii and Maine left, while grasping to Puerto Rico, to be called "The United States of America."
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I will only adopt what makes Hmong strong and not stupid. Again, we are so many like those ants who cannot win against one giant dung beetle. I understand that Hmong are afraid of China; however, there is a saying to what makes our will to be a strong will is because we have a will that never gives up. Chinese considered us a formidable foe is because we can kill them. If San Miao States doesn't rebel, then Hmong are too stupid. Chinese are cowards as we go to our Hmong history. They always outsmart us like ib niag khib xuab. They don't honor a fair fight; they always cheat and win against us. They are cowards. Did you know that Japan called them cowards too? There is no honor for a man to be a coward if one doesn't defend his or her own people. As it again, I will say it again, "Leave culture aside, that makes us weak. We must have strong ground and rebel China for good." If we win against China, I will put an independence between us. I will ally with Japan or Korea for an economic trade in order to protect us from the Chinese persecution. We need money; we need resource that we can trade for the world. Why can't Hmong look at the reality of that?
You have chosen stupid without knowing that it's stupid.
You have chosen assimilation. You are inadvertently leading Hmong to their cultural end. And when there's no Hmong cultural identities left, there won't be any Hmong. You and your kids and so forth will live on, but as other ppl, such as calling yourself Americans. And others will call themselves Thai or French, etc. Assimilation over time absorbs people into the larger or more dominant groups. When there are no more Hmong (or too few) then you won't have a ppl who will strive for a Hmong cause (like the state/country you so wish to materialize). And to achieve statehood will take many generations probably, and in that time you have to make sure your ppl remain as one until that goal is attained. The Jews knew this that's why they created their religion/book which has kept them together as a people, even if separated by geography, over hundreds of years when the had no country until 1948.
Hmong are scattered all over the world at the moment, from China, to Laos, to Canada and USA, to Australia. We have no land to link us all together as one. So what binds us together at the moment then? ... It's because we have the same culture. And our history of the past is shared with one another, for now. But not for long because are future will not be together as our destinies are dictated by those countries we live in. As we are pulled and pushed (getting converted into christianity, maybe even buddhism, etc, depending on where you live) we will lose our identities and starting identifying with that of other ppl, like you taking up christianity and then start thinking that somehow Hmong are the lost tribe of Israel. You will begin adopting their ways and disregarding your own. Even your name is not Hmong anymore. And you can barely speak Hmong. Don't even know much about Hmong ways... See where this is heading to? If this is you, what do you think your kids will be like? And their kids? And so on. And in time they will just be calling themselves Americans and that their only interest is being Americans. Any concept of "Hmong" to them will be foreign and they won't care. So with that, good luck on getting the groundswell and in recruiting your Hmong support/army to fight the Hmong cause.
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I will only adopt what makes Hmong strong and not stupid. Again, we are so many like those ants who cannot win against one giant dung beetle. I understand that Hmong are afraid of China; however, there is a saying to what makes our will to be a strong will is because we have a will that never gives up. Chinese considered us a formidable foe is because we can kill them. If San Miao States doesn't rebel, then Hmong are too stupid. Chinese are cowards as we go to our Hmong history. They always outsmart us like ib niag khib xuab. They don't honor a fair fight; they always cheat and win against us. They are cowards. Did you know that Japan called them cowards too? There is no honor for a man to be a coward if one doesn't defend his or her own people. As it again, I will say it again, "Leave culture aside, that makes us weak. We must have strong ground and rebel China for good." If we win against China, I will put an independence between us. I will ally with Japan or Korea for an economic trade in order to protect us from the Chinese persecution. We need money; we need resource that we can trade for the world. Why can't Hmong look at the reality of that?
Culture is what keeps your people as one at the moment, a unifying political force, until they are mature and strong enough. Being united is strength. You are failing to see how important culture plays into this. When ppl share the same values they group together; they hang out together and share each others views; they support and try to achieve similar goals, etc. This is strength, this is strategy. ..Your chance to "rebel" against China won't happen for generations or even centuries from now. Until then you still have to keep your Hmong people/army as one, especially since they are divided by geography, some living in America, others in Europe, and some within the PRC itself. Make sure your Hmong in China (and elswhere) don't abandon their heritage and become Chinese themselves. When that happens, your goal/dream ends... Your date with destiny will no longer be... Just like all those other small ppl/nation getting absorbed into a bigger empire and over time becoming ppl of that empire.
Right now Hmong are in a fragile state. You need do to keep them as one. And grow as one, and grow strong. Once you start thinking about the steps you will see that christianity/assimilation is like hyenas picking off the herd... Until statehood occurs, at which time you can debate about other issues of what defines/constitutes Hmong (kind of like how Americans are debating about American issues and who will be allowed in or not), since you will have the land as the umbrella identity for everyone, you must be disciplined.
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Christianity belongs to Jewish and Greeks. What did Christianity do to you? If you read the bible, there's not one word that declares that you should hate humanity. Again, I will not allow religion to be mix with politics. You're trying to mix Hmong culture with politics. I don't allow that in my political realm. Again, culture or any religion has to be separated. Did you know that Jesus Christ agrees that religion and politics has to be separated? Go read Mark Chapter 12. That will explain the separation between Church, Culture, and State.
If you bring Hmong culture to Hmong politics if we had a nation, I will not allow you to run at all. It's either you join the politics as you leave your culture aside, or don't join at all. If you want to share your religion, you can; however, no preaching. You can speak about your faction of religion, but you cannot preach. To make it fair, I will not allow any religion to preach on political realm is because they don't mix. Water and oil don't mix. You can share each other's aspect, but no preaching while having a political debate.
If Hmong people wants a nation, we have to fight against China for our land to be return. There are 4 billion of us; yet, we stand around like, "Me no want probrem."
Again, you don't bring your religion to your work place. Your work is your work, okay? You and I are talking about Hmong politics, not Hmong culture. If it's culture you're talking about, then you are not supporting the Hmong community with a stronger political ground. Culture has to be put on the side, please...
Ummm,,, wha? You serious? Maybe you made a typo and meant 4 million(?).
If we have 4 billion we wouldn't just want part of China, but the whole itself. Maybe even the Asian continent. Better yet, the world.
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Again, religion doesn't affect the nation. America is doing this just fine if we adopt that system to push out religion on their own boundaries. If you reject ALL religion except for your own--that's IF we have a country--the world will you as a stupid, anti-religious man who doesn't tolerate other religion. The only religion that I will forbid will be muslim is because they don't do anything that is fair. If they don't want our religion in their country, then I will not allow theirs in my country. I will allow someone's religion to be in MY country if they allow ours. That is what I see fair of religion.
You are always preaching about separation of state and religion and yet you say that you don't want Muslims in your country. Islam is a religion. This means that you are saying that religion can divide a nation whether you want to see it or not.
With this mindset, you are/will deny any Hmong person who practice Islam to live in the "Hmong" country you envision.
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I just wasted time with an idiot aka Kevin Vang here. Ruam npaum koj es tseem xav vam tau haiv thiab? Niag twb tsim paub pib qhov twg thiaj taug tau txoj kev ntawd.
Hopefully others reading this will have learnt something.
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You're correct. It is a typo. :o
Yah, and what are you doing to do with 4 million people vs 1+ billion, while the latter has better tech as well?
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Dude, is it fair that they don't want our religion to be in their country? Let me ask you about what is fair. If you want something from me as a trade, what do you have? If you want something from me, but you won't let me have something of yours, is it wrong for Muslim not allowing us to put OUR shaman religion in their country? My friend, I will allow someone's religion to come into my country IF they allow our religion to be in theirs as well. Now that is fair. Is it not?
If I were you, go find their laws and checkout to what they think about other religion. Muslim is a theocracy country; yet, they don't allow any other religion to come in into THEIR country. It's what I called, "Muslim is being racist to other religion." That is why I forbid muslim's teaching until they open a door for us.
Stop trying to use fairness to justify your reason for not allowing Islam in the country. "Fair" is the reason why your argument is wrong. What's not fair is, you claiming separation of religion and state, religion should stay out of politics, and yet use religion as a governmental/political policy for a certain group of people believing in a particular religion.
Answer your own question.
Uh, religion doesn't destroy anyone's culture. According to the American Constitution, religion has been separated from government and state laws. Therefore, I don't mind about having more than one religion. It's not the religion; it's what other cultures that practice without religion are attacking us. Culture vs. Religion is far different. Culture, I will say, "Yes, we should put some boundary on our people." As for religion, why against that?
I am a Christian; however, that doesn't mean I will automatically lose my identity. I don't want to lose my ID, nor losing my history and heritage. It's fine about the religion since as a Hmong person, I don't want to look like a anti-religious bigot. It's best for religion to be separated on its own.
You've been going at it with yeejkoob about religion and the government. Is it fair for yeejkoob that he is not allow to use religion to back up his argument but it is OK for you to do so?
Follow what you preach, keep religion out of government and politics.
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Dude, is it fair that they don't want our religion to be in their country? Let me ask you about what is fair. If you want something from me as a trade, what do you have? If you want something from me, but you won't let me have something of yours, is it wrong for Muslim not allowing us to put OUR shaman religion in their country? My friend, I will allow someone's religion to come into my country IF they allow our religion to be in theirs as well. Now that is fair. Is it not?
If I were you, go find their laws and checkout to what they think about other religion. Muslim is a theocracy country; yet, they don't allow any other religion to come in into THEIR country. It's what I called, "Muslim is being racist to other religion." That is why I forbid muslim's teaching until they open a door for us.
I won't even answer that question, I'll just let Matt answer it.
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So your saying fair is immorally wrong? Wow. I forbid Muslim in our community. Politics is politics; religion is religion. Yeej ask me about Hmong culture in politics and I forbid culture in politics. I am against his view about having Hmong culture in Hmong politics. Yeej declares that we should preserve Hmong culture; yet, how us he going to do that when other nations are attacking you with other culture dominance? What you need is politics before dealing with culture. Politics is first. Then culture domination is second. The last is religion. Thy are all >:D separate. If politics doesn't come first, don't speak of preserving Hmong culture. No military; no protection; also, no senators or having a construct of our own constitution. I ask Yeej about this. He keeps bringing religion when I am against religion and culture if this was a political debate. What's politics belong to politics.
There you go again with, religion shouldn't be involve with politics, and yet you bring in religion (Islam) into your argument. And stop using "fair" as if your policy is a fair policy. Refusing someone into the community because of his/her religion is not fair.
So your saying fair is immorally wrong?
What I am saying is that your "No Muslims Allowed" policy is immoral.
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Dude, is it fair that they don't want our religion to be in their country?
Show me evidence where all Muslims don't want other religion in a country. Show me evidence that every Muslims in the USA doesn't want other religion in the USA.
Tell me how many countries from this list that doesn't allow other religions in their country.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)
If I were you, go find their laws and checkout to what they think about other religion. Muslim is a theocracy country; yet, they don't allow any other religion to come in into THEIR country. It's what I called, "Muslim is being racist to other religion." That is why I forbid muslim's teaching until they open a door for us.
I didn't need to do research about Muslims not allowing other religions in their country. I see it myself in the USA that not every Muslims don't allow other religions to be in this country. But I did provide a list of countries that have Muslims in it and a lot of those countries allow people who practice other religions in them.
If a country doesn't allow other religions being practice in the country, then it is because of the nation's/gvernment's policy/politics that does not allow other religions. If a country refuse to share its resources with you(your nation), then you can also refuse to share your resources with that country. But refusing to share your resources with a religion is just plain wrong and immoral, especially when there are other countries with that same religion are willing to share their resources with you. And especially when some of the people excavating your resources for you practice that same religion. Islam is not a country, it is a religion. Muslims are not countries, they are people who practice the Islam religion.
KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS
You may know how to type those words, but you do not know how to act on those words.
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Go to Saudi Arabia. They forbid any religion to intervene their theocracy. I forbid Islam; however, I don't forbid the people. The people can come and live in my country; however, under one rule: If you allow us to teach our teachings to you, we can allow your teachings to be onto us.
As for muslim who studies polygamy in the islamic world, I forbid polygamy. That also destroy Hmong polygamy since I will destroy, persecute, and purge the polygamist is because of its immorality around it. Women are being abused far too much because of that reason. I won't show mercy on the polygamist. Once you practice it, you're done for...that's IF Hmong had a nation. I will adopt Japanese and American rules since I see that they can run the country with full potential of prosperity. China and America, I will forbid corruption on two sides:
1. Fair court trial with no money bargain on the judges, cops, and any high officials (Don't want another Dylan Yang court case).
2. No corruption in Banks (Don't deposit your money in China. They will steal it.)
I have more rules to apply for a Hmong country:
1. Force all homeless people to go and get a FUKING job, or be force to join the military for life. Also, you can get an education to bypass the military in order to see that you are making progress on your own future.
2. Social-Capitalism will apply to our people. It's an adoption from Japan.
3. Jobs will be looking for you. You don't have to find a job since any job on your level of education will come and find you instead.
4. Personal doctors that you have signed on will come to your house rather you go to the hospital.
5. Our laws will be similar to the constitution of America.
6. As for our economic stance, we will have to be a capitalist on foreign countries is because they are not our domestic citizen. For those who are domestic will be treated as a socialist state with government help in order for everyone not to suffer the poverty line. Anyone who is not a citizen, they will face the full extent of high tax and high needs. If you are born as a Hmong person, you are automatically a citizen, even if you are born from a different country. For those who are immigrants and are not Hmong, will have to take the citizenship test. Then you will receive the good stuff from the Hmong government.
7. As for military, I will buy heavy infantry, heavy tanks, and focusing on air strikes along with naval power to support our ground. If we can scare Thailand and Laos, they will back off from our people for a very long time. I will ally with Vietnam for personal war issue against China since we both share a common enemy.
8. We will have 3 parties: Liberals, Conservatives, and both who are in the middle.
These are my small brainstorm for a Hmong country.
I'm still waiting on your evidence that all Muslims don't allow other religions in their country. Saudi Arabia is one country. Where are your evidences for all Muslims?
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Why do you care about Islam? They are fuking racist; yet, you allow these racist cuunts to come in and barge their religion into my people? Have you not seen their crazy theocracy? I will not allow the teachings of Islam like how Japan does it to protect their country. If Islam will drop their racist religion, suicide bombings, and allow other religions to come in into their country, that's when I will allow Islam to flourish in my country. Let me ask you this, "Do you want any terrorist to do some crazy bombings?" France got their problem and look what just happen to them.
Who said anything about terrorists? I'm talking about your policy of not allowing Muslims in your country.
Again, show me the evidence that all Muslims are terrorists, suicide bombers and such. How come we don't see all the Muslims in the USA doing all this?
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So you will allow an enemy to barge in? Great...we just allow terrorist to attack us. Did you know that China is being targeted as the number 2 on the hit list for the Islamic nation? Chinese muslim are willingly to go and bomb themselves if you look at what Islam can do to the world. I will have to agree that if they allow us to watch them, then they can watch us. I cannot allow a ninja, a spy, or someone who will destroy my people. We have lives who are feared by these people. Yet, you so willingly allow them to come. Great...anothe r Hmong fallen nation like how we did it to China. We allow the great tour for the Chinese to invade us. Just perfect!
This isn't the wizard of oz, the straw man doesn't belong in here.
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The afterlife,
Do you have anything other than red herrings and straw man attacks to defend your argument? If you do, than show me.
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So you agree to not allow Christianity.
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In politics, NO! Else where as in separation, yes. I will adopt how America will adopt. Christianity can be teach, but not muslim is because of terrorist attack. Christianity was allowed in Japan and Korea. China, however, there's a certain extent to what you can preach.
If Muslim allow Shaman to teach in their country, then I will allow their religion in my country. However, I am FULL aware of spies who acts like they are religious people when they are not. I would keep an eye on them if something smells fishy.
America is very smart. They sell their phones in order to spy other countries since that's what the CIA has been doing. America has censored Chinese's technology is because of that reason. They don't want anyone to spy in their country. Therefore, having a ninja in black in your country can be highly dangerous. If I buy American phone, I make sure the chip inside of it is OUT!
What I meant was, you agree that Christianity shouldn't be allow at all in the Hmong country. All your arguments are the denial of everything except Hmong. Therefore you do agree with yeejkoob. So why are you arguing against him?
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Why is it so hard for you to latch on to what I am saying?
Because you keep mixing politics and religion. You say one thing, but do the opposite.
Muslim, I will not allow them to practice unless they allow ours. Sudan is one of them. I won't share our ideas and politics with them is because of the way they are. Therefore, why? It's like allowing North Korea's religion BULLSHIT to come into your country, but they won't allow yours to their country. That's just wrong and racist!
Yes, it's wrong to ban people in a country simply because of their religious background. And that's exactly what you are doing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
There you again, mixing religion with a nation's policy. This is what you can't seem to grasp. Your North Korea analogy is nothing like your argument, therefore it's moot.
I'm still waiting on your evidence that all Muslims don't allow other religions in their country. Saudi Arabia and Sudan are two countries, they do not account for all Muslims. Indonesia has the largest Islamic population, and look at how many other religions that are practice in it.
I won't share our ideas and politics with them is because of the way they are.
What are you talking about? Muslims shared the kalam cosmological argument "idea" with other theists.
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On bold, where did I say I will ban the people. I only will ban the religion, not the people. The people are fine as long I don't see a mosque. If they want to built a mosque, then I want to build our multi-religion on their nation. Their real nationality are Arabic, not Muslim. Muslim is an identity to their religion. If you allow terrorist to intervene our people, they will assimilate Hmong Muslim terrorist by using OUR people to kill us. Have you not read what had happened in Sichuan during the San Miao States? I cannot let history repeat itself. Therefore, I forbid the religion until I see a fair common ground. The muslim can come and visit; however, our spies will watch them 24/7. I can't trust them. They can live in our country as a citizen until the next 3 generation if they don't do anything funny. Yes, I will spy them for the next 3 generation until I see their trustworthy. They will not have a mosque until they let us build our church in their country. Now do you get it?
You better check yourself first before you try to explain what Muslims are. Don't try and make it look like I am the one that doesn't know what Muslim is. No need to explain it to me, i know what it is. You were the one using the term "Muslims" incorrectly. You missed used that word so many times, too much to quote you right now.
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But they practice polygamy. I forbid polygamy and I will hunt them down, like some persecutors who hunts down immoral people. If Hmong hates other Hmong people that forbids polygamy, they will be the first one to die. No polygamy!
That's why you make government laws banning polygamy. Not all Muslims practice polygamy. Whether they break religious laws, is up to them, as long as they are not breaking the government laws. It's the government laws that matters when it comes to the laws of a nation.
I don't want this thread to turn into a religious debate but, if going by your way, Christianity should also be outlawed. Christianity practice slavery, cruel and unusual punishment just to name a few. I'm pretty sure other religions are similar. Why not outlaw all religions. If you are for freedom of religion or lack of, then you cannot cherry pick parts from a religion just so you can outlaw that particular religion, but at the same time leave out certain things from another religion just to make it allowable in the country. To me, freedom of religion or lack of, applies to all religions. People should have the freedom to believe in whatever they want as long as they do not break the government laws.
Seperation of religion and state, concerning government laws, to me means, that religion stays out of government laws. And the government stays out of religious laws. An example of this would be the same sex marriage issue. A government official cannot refuse the "legal" marriage between a same sex couple simply because his/her religion forbids it. The government cannot force a religion's refusal of a "ceremonial/religious" marriage of a same sex couple.
ex: the government cannot force a church to perform the ceremony of the marriage it is against that church's belief. This is because the marriage ceremony, whether performed or not, is not a legal marriage in accordance with government laws.
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Arabic is their ethnicity. Muslim is like saying, "Amish!" Amish isn't a race. It's a devotion towards to God.
As I said earlier, don't put it as if I don't know what Muslim is, I knew it from the get-go, apparently, you didn't.
The only religion that I will forbid will be muslim is because they don't do anything that is fair. If they don't want our religion in their country, then I will not allow theirs in my country. I will allow someone's religion to be in MY country if they allow ours. That is what I see fair of religion.
Dude, is it fair that they don't want our religion to be in their country? Let me ask you about what is fair. If you want something from me as a trade, what do you have? If you want something from me, but you won't let me have something of yours, is it wrong for Muslim not allowing us to put OUR shaman religion in their country? My friend, I will allow someone's religion to come into my country IF they allow our religion to be in theirs as well. Now that is fair. Is it not?
If I were you, go find their laws and checkout to what they think about other religion. Muslim is a theocracy country; yet, they don't allow any other religion to come in into THEIR country. It's what I called, "Muslim is being racist to other religion." That is why I forbid muslim's teaching until they open a door for us.
Why do you care about Islam? They are fuking racist; yet, you allow these racist cuunts to come in and barge their religion into my people? Have you not seen their crazy theocracy? I will not allow the teachings of Islam like how Japan does it to protect their country. If Islam will drop their racist religion, suicide bombings, and allow other religions to come in into their country, that's when I will allow Islam to flourish in my country. Let me ask you this, "Do you want any terrorist to do some crazy bombings?" France got their problem and look what just happen to them.
Again, no Muslim until we get our fair trade of religion.
http://listverse.com/2011/11/24/top-10-most-dangerous-countries-for-christians/ (http://listverse.com/2011/11/24/top-10-most-dangerous-countries-for-christians/)
The non-muslim, we will dealt later. The real Muslim religion, here they are.
If they don't allow Christians to preach, then Shamanism will be the first to be called, "a witch/warlock." Then next is death.
Uh, no, I didn't agree that Christianity is forbidden in a Hmong country. I forbid religion in the politics. My argument early was politics, not the country. The country is LATER! Okay? I will allow Christianity in a Hmong country, but not in our politics. This is my argument. Why is it so hard for you to latch on to what I am saying? Country, yes. I allow all religion except for muslim. For politics, do you see that America is a Christian nation? I think Yeej thinks that America is a Christian nation when he hasn't study Poli-sci. I am sorry for Yeej that he lacks to understand the separation of Church and State. Muslim, I will not allow them to practice unless they allow ours. Sudan is one of them. I won't share our ideas and politics with them is because of the way they are. Therefore, why? It's like allowing North Korea's religion BULLSHIT to come into your country, but they won't allow yours to their country. That's just wrong and racist!
Like I said, look at what you wrote first before accusing me of not knowing what Muslim is.
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Apparently you still haven't grasp on to what I've been saying. Keep religion separate from politics and government. Nations have government laws to outlaw certain things. Those laws comes from the government of those individual countries and only effect those individual countries. Laws are made by the country's government for the country. To people outside of that particular country, the laws represent the country but not the citizens of that country. Whether the government officials believes in a certain religion or not, those laws do not represent the religion. It does not represent each and every individual from all over the world who so happen to practice the same religion. Just because a country has a law that outlaws every religion except Islam, it does not mean that those laws represent all Muslims from everywhere in the world.
So I'll say it again, Keep religion separate from government. Stop claiming that Muslims don't allow other religions in their country if you can come up with evidence that shows every Muslims in the planet thinks that way. Which by the way, I'm still waiting on those evidence from you.
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But they practice polygamy. I forbid polygamy and I will hunt them down, like some persecutors who hunts down immoral people. If Hmong hates other Hmong people that forbids polygamy, they will be the first one to die. No polygamy!
Kevveem Vaj, the awb, you need to go back and read everything again. This time use your brain more and think it over before you start yapping away. That's why I took off for a few days to let you get a second chance at it.
I'm really starting to think that you're not all there operating with a few missing marbles.
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I am still not going to allow Muslim to be in my nation. Just look what has happened to France. I would do what Japan does by not allowing any synagogues in our country. To hell with those terrorists. I am not going to have another repetition in our history of our Hmong when we lost in Sichuan. Do you want us to get heavily influence by your own enemies? When America saw Japan raided Hawaii, what did they do? They arrest them all in order to keep any secrets from spilling. Therefore, the country can be a safer place.
You have not learn anything from history and you are doom to repeat history. The arrests made on American citizens of Japanese decent was one of the darkest hour of American history regarding civil liberty and cultural differences, and here you are embracing it. America during that time was heavily influence by their enemy.
Are you that scared of those terrorists that bombs building? You should not be too worry about those suicide bombers, they are of little threat compared to the enemy that is influencing you right now. Those are the enemy that is the most dangerous. They don't have to step one foot in your country but they can defeat you. Even though you don't realize it, but they are incfluencing you already.
Please explain to me the history of Sichuan as you see it.
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You need Japan to fight off the Chinese. I would rather not have the Chinese over me.
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You're going to hate this then. A movie about your Hero. Made by the Chinese :-X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cVe_t9TYdA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cVe_t9TYdA)
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Dude, we are living in the modern day. I know that America will never attack any Asian countries. Because if they see that, Vietnam and other smaller countries might see this as a threat. Plus, who will settle there people over across the sea? That's a lot of money, which totally explains why England cannot conquer her own rebellious daughter who seeks for independence.
If Hmong fight against the Chinese, I understand what casualty there will be. However, you need an ally who is interested in fighting against the Chinese. I know that America will not join is because they are ally to them by economic interest. Japan and Vietnam are the only country that are interested on taking on China. I don't mind if they attack them, as long I get a country of my own.
The thing about finding allies is that you have to provide something that they need. Just because they have a common enemy doesn't mean that they will automatically be your ally. It is like an investment. Just like in war, if there is nothing to gain from going to war or if the loss will be too great, then it is not worth going to war. And let's not forget that an ally of yours must be willing to support your other ally, if not then they might remain neutral.
I don't know exactly about Japan's recent military restrictions but the last thing I read was that they can't invade another country. If in a different country, at most they can only provide supplies to their allies.
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I'm trying hard to be creative, innovative and accept your line of thinking, but I can't seem to grasp how a countryless people (thus no autonomy) can continue to keep their identities for generations and millenniums to come when they don't have anything concrete to hold onto (such as country that specifically identifies them for the rest of the world to know, see, and accept), all the while their culture keeps on eroding away as assimilation forces encroach, and fast. Everywhere I look I just see more and more intermarriages and cultural extinction (like Christianity converting Hmong ppl or Hmong kids just losing the language and traditions)... With this trend and looking at it in the long run, like centuries from now, will there even be people who identify themselves as Hmong around then? Or will they just be Americans, Canadians, French, Chinese of Hmong descent, if that?,,, You also need a state to help protect and perpetuate the Hmong cultural identities, no? So when somebody comes up with a world changing invention the other ppl of the world can say yes that guy/gal from Hmongland, hence Hmong, did that.
With your examples up above, I'm thinking that if a Hmong person (living in America?) finds a cure for cancer or builds a ship to Mars and beyond, the history books will say "An American (since s/she is from America) by the name of so and so (and s/he probably a English/American first name as well) did so and so. The Hmong identity would probably be relegated as secondary only, if that.
To be creative in thinking and making the best of a bad situation is a consolation only, while having the country/state (and what it embodies) is the real prize, imo.
We can agree to disagree. How long have the Hmong been without a country? Over 1000 years and we're still Hmong. According to our known history, 900 AD, or 223 BC. None of these dates are official until we find concrete evidence showing that we had a self governing system back in 900 AD, or that the Chu kingdom was actually ours back in 223 BC.
Let's be realistic, where on earth do we plan to build a country? What army are we using to take lands by force? Who is our great orator who'll win a nation through diplomacy? Are we starting a rebellion somewhere? What chances do they have against the nation they plan to rebel against?
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:2funny:
We're still plotting to carve up China? Whether you can convince others or UN/ATM to back your plan, we're all going to be sour losers no matter where we live. We're always going to be exploited and used by others. We outta be focusing on educating ourselves & aiming for the stars instead of wasting precious time with crazy thoughts.
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Stop dreaming... To say that certain race likes Hmong it's like saying that White Americans loves Black Americans. War never changes... We only have to look at Syria, why must people die senselessly? Whether 4 mil or 100 mil, if you're not oppressed, marginalize, enslaved, and etc... It's unreasonable to revolt. You revolt senselessly, you deserve death and enslavement...
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People can call me whatever they think or conceived. Why do I want others to know about me when they clearly aren't interest it. Just like this co-worker, he thinks I'm hmongolian.lol I'm totally fine with that. Hmong people are not special, why do other folks need to know?
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How can anyone dis you if they don't even know who you are? If you're Hmong you should know that there's nothing to be proud off. If you can't even understand or in agreement with that and still think you're Hmong than I rather choose to be to not associate with your Hmong Association. Because it's embarrassing.. .
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What for and what's the reason? I hate Hmong people and their twisted politics whether it's the ogs or the young trying to get into government office. I hate suck ups and beggars!
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GVP and the past are an exception. Sorry, but you have the wrong idea. What I have problems with are folks that believe in communism or democracy and believes one is more superior than the other and people should adopt it. The idea that we must learn the ways of the West to move or go anywhere is just ridiculous. Having Fong or Mee helps the Hmong people to excel is ridiculous... The best Hmong people I don't know makes millions and are out of the spot lite. They do more in the name of Hmong than any of politicians can. It's money that controls and shape this country. It's money & power that brings about RESPECT. It's intellect and know how that can control the industry. Why are hmong people wasting resources on useless things like running for office or trying to stir up problems elsewhere in the world.
If people want to revolt, let them be. Should be non of our concerns. Young people can fight? Only in COD: Modern Warfare...
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True. Leader without a person to back him up with finance will cause a rebelling. I understand. IF Fong or Mee finds someone who is willingly to support the Hmong community; also, contact the Hmong in China if they agree with us. We have to gather from two different points of view in two different lands. The East and the West must consult within each other if we truly desire to rebel against China and forge our own country. I understand that we will be the first colonial tribes to rebel against China. If we want to ally with someone who is close to us, I will ally with Taiwan since they are desperate to push the PRC out of the line. Since Taiwan is the closest one to make an economic trade; also, Vietnam as well, then I see a better deal for the three of us to grow. Vietnam was once our enemy before that was hired by retarded, black Laotians, but I can forgive Vietnam since they weren't the main boss that did all atrocities in Laos. China, will be our next top list if we rebel before scaring Laos with our mighty power.
If you do know someone who has money, then support our leaders by finding a money-maker to back our people up. Do you want another Hollywood discrimination that calls us stupid and a bunch of wusses?
Thone two countries are not going to be your allies against PRC. Vietnam 's number one imports are from China. They will not risk jeopardizing their relations with China. Taiwan won't support you either for fear of internal instability and risk jeopardizing the support from USA in their defense against China. The USA's policy is that if China invades Taiwan, USA will help defend Taiwan but there is no guarantee of USA's support according to that policy.
And if the two senators you mentioned actually did what you said, they will most likely be imprisoned for conspiracy. And even if they stepped down as American senators prior to doing that, they won't have any political power or support to overthrow China.
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Would you be open to revealing your infatuation with the idea of "rebelling against China?"
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Would you be open to revealing your infatuation with the idea of "rebelling against China?"
Isn't it obvious? It's hate.
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>:D I would've given him the benefit of the doubt. I'm waiting for an explicit "I hate China!"
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What to do with China? If China sees our senators as conspiracy people, Hmong people will still stand to fight. If we lose one head, it's just a head. We still have others. That's what makes us hard to kill. Just because a king died doesn't mean, "Oh well, we lose." Nope! Our king is dead, we still fight.
That's why China won't take off the head. They will do what they've done in the past. Poison was always effective in the past, they will use it again.
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Then force our leaders to have someone to drink their food, eat their food if its not poison. Make sure there are no traitors as well. I hate Hmong traitors; I don't want another Sichuan situation.
Looks like you didn't quite get the "use poison " and not "cut off head" part.
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We can agree to disagree. How long have the Hmong been without a country? Over 1000 years and we're still Hmong. According to our known history, 900 AD, or 223 BC. None of these dates are official until we find concrete evidence showing that we had a self governing system back in 900 AD, or that the Chu kingdom was actually ours back in 223 BC.
Let's be realistic, where on earth do we plan to build a country? What army are we using to take lands by force? Who is our great orator who'll win a nation through diplomacy? Are we starting a rebellion somewhere? What chances do they have against the nation they plan to rebel against?
I have read your comments. I have answers for them... However, currently I can't use my computer to type very well as there's a problem with some of the keypad letters. just typing this much has taken several minutes to do so as I had to cut and paste certain letters.