PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Debate Central => Topic started by: w1s3m0n on December 08, 2018, 01:03:11 PM
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I use to be against Universal Basic Income (UBI) when I was younger because I felt people would not be motivated to work. After years of studying the impact of robotics, automation, and artificial intelligence, and seeing the huge divergence between Wage vs. GDP, I've come to realize that UBI is a pragmatic solution to address the looming crisis of 30% labor job lost due to automation and AI. The way I see it, you either pay people to not be disruptive or pay them to be productive. I would rather do the latter and have a productive society. Btw, I am not a social democrat and I am a classical liberal. The way I have come resolve the notion of stealing private property from the rich to give to the poor comes from Andrew Yang. He sees UBI as a form of dividend payout. If the country is doing well, everyone gets a payout. This type of thinking is perfectly OK because it incentivizes ALL people to hold each other accountable. This system exists in a corporate structure because shareholders who DO NOTHING are given the biggest $$ at the end of the year. As a citizen, I have OWNERSHIP of the country. This also resolves the current looming crisis of immigrants who don't care about America by incentivizing immigrants to become a citizen and to love the country they benefit from.
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We already have Universal Basic Income. It's called welfare.
Damn, doesn't anybody on PH ever read Thomas Sowell?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7gKGq_MYpU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7gKGq_MYpU)
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I use to be against Universal Basic Income (UBI) when I was younger because I felt people would not be motivated to work. After years of studying the impact of robotics, automation, and artificial intelligence, and seeing the huge divergence between Wage vs. GDP, I've come to realize that UBI is a pragmatic solution to address the looming crisis of 30% labor job lost due to automation and AI. The way I see it, you either pay people to not be disruptive or pay them to be productive. I would rather do the latter and have a productive society. Btw, I am not a social democrat and I am a classical liberal. The way I have come resolve the notion of stealing private property from the rich to give to the poor comes from Andrew Yang. He sees UBI as a form of dividend payout. If the country is doing well, everyone gets a payout. This type of thinking is perfectly OK because it incentivizes ALL people to hold each other accountable. This system exists in a corporate structure because shareholders who DO NOTHING are given the biggest $$ at the end of the year. As a citizen, I have OWNERSHIP of the country. This also resolves the current looming crisis of immigrants who don't care about America by incentivizing immigrants to become a citizen and to love the country they benefit from.
Interesting... so what amount is consider UBI? This is the same issue as the debate for $15/hr. Who in their right mind think $15/hr is a living wage? Maybe to someone in the South but not in CA or NY.
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Wait...are we a social media communistic democratic society...of something like that? my brain fart hurts. snappy chat tweet...
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voting Mr. Yang for President! ha!
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We already have Universal Basic Income. It's called welfare.
Damn, doesn't anybody on PH ever read Thomas Sowell?
Sowell isn't clear on the dramatic impact of Machine Learning. 30% job loss... Potentially 1 in 3 people will be obsolete unless they retrain. Add in the globalization of labor force through SaaS like upwork...how much more softening of labor demand in America? A LOT. We've already seen what globalization has done to American jobs. We use to be ultra wealthy, now, we can barely get by. So you think the average people are going to sit around while the politicians and capitalists screw everything? Nope.
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Interesting... so what amount is consider UBI? This is the same issue as the debate for $15/hr. Who in their right mind think $15/hr is a living wage? Maybe to someone in the South but not in CA or NY.
He's suggesting like $500-$1,000 a month for every able citizen. Alaska is doing it. It's an interesting idea I've been reading about.
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He's suggesting like $500-$1,000 a month for every able citizen. Alaska is doing it. It's an interesting idea I've been reading about.
Alaska is using the profits from oil to give back to it's residents. Many states don't have the luxury of doing that... But honestly, can someone really live off $1000 a month?
You can't blame the rich... they worked hard and invested wisely or their forefather did and they inherited the wealth. By giving people free money, we will create a generation of lazy people. Just look at welfare recipients... majority of them don't want to get better... just have more kids to milk more money from the gov't.
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Alaska is using the profits from oil to give back to it's residents. Many states don't have the luxury of doing that... But honestly, can someone really live off $1000 a month?
You can't blame the rich... they worked hard and invested wisely or their forefather did and they inherited the wealth. By giving people free money, we will create a generation of lazy people. Just look at welfare recipients... majority of them don't want to get better... just have more kids to milk more money from the gov't.
HL, it's ECONOMICS BRO. I kid you not. Here are a few statistics you should keep in mind.
1) 30 years ago 1% wealthiest own 50% of the stock market. Today, 1% wealthiest own 70% own the stock market.
2) Wealth creation in the 20th century is created through a Newtonian physics equation called F=MA, or to put it in money term, wealth = asset x currency speed x transaction speed. Since wealthy people don't SPEND, the currency speed is declining. However, the transaction speed is increasing through automation, but that too is reaching a peak point with ATM, Credit Card, Flash Trading, etc...
Based upon these two simple principles, we can extrapolate a very simple understanding. Unless monetary policy changes, the 1% will continue to accumulate more of the wealth in America. As the 1% accumulates more wealth, the TOTAL wealth will decline due to lack of spending due to a decrease in currency speed. What this means is the federal reserve will likely introduce a NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE POLICY (NIRP) in the next crash.
Now, let me tell you about a conservative economist name Milton Friedman. He saw these trend lines 20+ years ago, and he proposed this radical idea called negative interest rate. The government would tax money in the bank account by 2% per year to force savers to spend. The people who are greatly impacted the most are the 1%. Who will receive the 2% NIRP? Guess who? The people. So essentially, Milton Friedman did propose UBI but under NIRP.
What UBI or dividend promoter argue is that, let's not wait for a crash. Let's stave off a crisis through enlightened leadership and create a policy that forces wealthy people to spend and not save.
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voting Mr. Yang for President! ha!
Nobody is asking Andrew Yang the most basic question:
"What happens when automation goes belly up?"
Remember all the dot coms? :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
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Xav muaj nyiaj ces kav tsij khwv, noj tsawg, txhua nyiaj, thiab khaws nyiaj.
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bring the jobs back, cut military spending and reinvestment in america.. solution solved.
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voting Mr. Yang for President! ha!
Nobody is asking Andrew Yang the most basic question:
"What happens when automation goes belly up?"
Remember all the dot coms? :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
LOVE IT!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Giving poor people money will not make them more productive. It will only fund their bad habits until they're back in the same situation and then they'll want to increase the $1k to $2k. Alaska is not the entire country. Furthermore, Yang is completely out of touch. UBI will incentivize the poorest of people to breed. He wants to give every adult child $1k even if they live with their parents. The Hmong are gonna start having 20 children. Welfare will take care of the children until they reach 18 and are eligible for UBI. So when exactly are parents actually going to be parents? One family could be reaping $20k/month. Yang is delusional to think that everybody will invest the money and take risks by opening up businesses.
What a joke!
Plus, who really runs and operates automation that is paying the divided if not big corporations who will no doubt own the government?
Talk about the quickest way to lead America to socialism.
Deregulate some industries. That is the quickest way for people to start getting jobs and relocating.
Nobody can get into a different industry because of too much regulations.
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Nobody is asking Andrew Yang the most basic question:
"What happens when automation goes belly up?"
Remember all the dot coms? :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
automation is the future. go to McD and press whatever you like on the menu, you don't have to deal with incompetent cashiers.
what will work with this UBI system...let's use st. paul for example, with a population of 300,000 (assuming everyone is an eligible recipients)...the residents are about to receive $300million (now that's alot of money!) you already know what's gonna happen...when people receive easy things that come (free money?!), it's easy go (spending), not only that but they know they got some more coming next month. it's like winning the powerball but instead of the lump sum, we've selected the annuity?
smart people are going to establish businesses that will gladly take these free money from the government. with a business being established, it's going to create jobs, more jobs, equal more taxes, more taxes will keep this cycle of free money going. mind you, we're all getting FREE healthcare and FREE education and we're gonna ask for subsidized housing, while we're at it. i say let's ride this wave of FREE stuff for a while! ha!
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I understand that spending will fuel the economy. However, these lazy bums will just ask for more. I say those already receiving welfare don't get the $1k.
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Bob Andy and Steve.
Bob went to school.
Andy and Steve did not.
Bob makes $500.00 a week.
Andy makes $150.00 a week.
Steve makes $300.00 a week.
Give Andy and Steve $100.00 a week extra.
Bob still makes $500.00 a week.
Andy now gets $250.00 a week.
Steve now gets $400.00 a week.
How does this create equality?
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If you read or listen to any of his interviews, he has mentioned that those receiving welfare will have to chose one or the other as they can't have both. As someone has pointed out, I still don't understand how this creates equality when the poor will still be poor and the rich gets an extra 1k for doing.... nothing? Personally, this is a bunch of bs. I'd much rather have a solution for the state of healthcare or education in this country instead of a bunch of old white farts hiding behind god, children, and the flag.
What are you talking about? I bet you don't know that facts show Asians are the highest wage-earners in the country.
If the country is so racist and old, white farts are holding back non-whites then explain the facts!
Reasons why the Hmong are not doing as well as other groups have much to do with our culture and our attitude towards each other. It ain't because of some white dude.
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Gotta wait till all these old fart white man
Die of old age, diseases, and cancer first
Before real change can happen
Wasn’t that long about 60s years ago
They were spraying water hose at the black peoples
And setting the dog lose
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Society will be divided between the able and the unable. The able will look down on those who take free money and who have no character or motivation in life whatsoever.
Bob Andy and Steve.
Bob went to school.
Andy and Steve did not.
Bob makes $500.00 a week.
Andy makes $150.00 a week.
Steve makes $300.00 a week.
Give Andy and Steve $100.00 a week extra.
Bob still makes $500.00 a week.
Andy now gets $250.00 a week.
Steve now gets $400.00 a week.
How does this create equality?
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Society will be divided between the able and the unable. The able will look down on those who take free money and who have no character or motivation in life whatsoever.
It's less about the money and more so the use or application of it.
Imagine instead if we take the money and open up a few free colleges? Loans to help open or sustain small/local businesses?
There are no guarantees that the UBI will be used for the intended purposes. Let's teach people the difference between NEEDs and WANTs first.
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And you all really think shareholders are willing to share their dividends with the rest of America?
Dream on.
Yang is promising money that doesn't belong to him.
Furthermore, it will descend us straight into Communism where decisions are made by big corporations who make up these automation companies. I thought the goal was to fight corporatism, not invite them into our lives and control us.
And those old white farts, while I am no fan of theirs, I ain't trying to live in world run by non-whites who ran their countries in the ground long before old white farts came along.
Every minority complaining about old white farts are strangely not living in their own native countries.
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If anything, like someone else already mentioned, this will be an easier way for those already comfortable to receive extra cash. Which by the way, who wouldn't want that? I want that. But I know that paving the way for Socialism just isn't worth it.
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BNM,
You are thinking with bias and therefore you seek to confirm your bias. Have you been taught Null Hypothesis testing? If you haven't, and you don't have the discipline to conduct NH testing then it's kind of pointless talking about this because you'll only seek to confirm your bias.
Now in my original post, I said I was initially against UBI, but after looking at the trends, I don't see a way out of this mess. The wealthy don't spend enough and their bank account is the measure of their **** and boobs/butts and so everyone wants a bigger **** and a bigger boob. The wealthy are causing the economy to stagnant. When they do spend, it is only to acquire more assets and to inflate asset-class for the average citizen. For example, investors are why houses are beyond the middle class reach again. This means when the asset class is no longer returning a sound return, the investors will DUMP (see hype curve), and hurt the average joe networth, and they will RINSE and REPEAT this every market cycle. In swing trading, you see this hype cycle go up and come down rapidly. Smart money always beat dumb money... The average American is dumb money.
So we need to level the playing field and accelerate the spend rate. I don't care if it is UBI or NIRP, we need to increase the cash conversion cycle and put the capital into the market in such a way not to inflate asset-class.
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I'm for UBI if there are rules in place. For example, to qualify for x-amount of UBI, a person needs to work x-hours a week. And, after quitting for x-amount of time, a person no longer qualifies for the UBI if their circumstances for not working are not because of retirement age (which retirement age needs to be 60), physical disability, being laid off, etc.
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I have no idea if this ubi is working or not but if they give me $1000 extra a month, nothing will change about myself. I'll just have more beer money but hey, the bar economy will thrive right? I'm down to feeding them too.
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People can’t be thinking he’s serious about this, can we?
First, politicians lie all the times just to get votes.
Secondly, Yang has said he’d give each person 1K for one year only. But he said that too fast and it might have passed from one ear to the other...