PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Funeral Rituals & Customs => Topic started by: yuknowthat on July 10, 2011, 01:55:33 PM
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What I am about to say will probably offend many Hmong Txiv Xaiv because I think that the Txiv Xaiv Part should be taken out especially when foom kom to the children and many relatives. It can be an optional thing for the family of the deceased. I said that because obviously many doesn't know or care what they say and they bow and bow till sunrise. The family of the deceased can be paying up to 1k for just asking the gentlemen to come say a couple lectures about life(don't gamble, don't steal, don't go mess with other people's wives or husband, etc...)
what's your thoughts about it?
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I actually somewhat like it, probably the best part
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I like that part. Cov txawj mloog ces khaws tau cov lus nyiaj lus kub coj mus ua neej, cov tsis txawj mloog ces mloog nkag sab no tshwm sab tov lawm xwb os.
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I like how the guy tells people the truth: nej niam (nej txiv) tuag lawm tiag tiag nawb zaum na; nej yuav tau khwv nej thiaj tau noj tau haus.
Many people need to be reminded of basic things, so it's ok to have him there.
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Some folks who dislike someone dearest to them for whatever the reason is. He or she won't cry
a tear but until foo koom thing this invidual will cry the loudest. All because the Txiv Xaiv remind him
or her that this will be the last time one can get to see his or her dearest, when sun rise and morning
come he or she will never going to see this person again. Doesn't matter how much one hate
or love this individual when wake up in the moring, this invidual will not be there for one to hate or love.
If lucky enough he or she might get chance to see in the dream.
So yes we do need the txiv xiav. If one doesn't want to do anything with the Hmong culture then Christian
is another way out.
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The Txiv Xaiv, and the foom koom is one of the most important aspect to a Hmong funeral. It's true that some pay ridiculous amounts for it, but we pay even more for even more ludicrous things. When I look at the Txiv Xaiv, primarily when they foom koom, I don't view it as the Txiv Xaiv blessing the survivors, but more of an eulogoy. He gives voices to the decease, telling the family what would of the been the decease's last words.
The Txiv Xaiv can bless the family as much as they want, but if the family does not act on it nothing will come of it. Just because he said some good things to you it doesn't mean you will get it. You have to go out there and get it for yourself, the blessings will guide the way.
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txiv xaiv is a dying art. i don't think it should be taken out, txiv xaiv is a reality check for those of us who are caught up in our busy lives. it inspires us to teach and love our own kids and that our parents love-d us that much and more.
xyom cuab should not have to sit and bow all night, instead xyom cuab should relax and sit comfortably in a chair during txiv xaiv. less strain on the body and more attention on the words.
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every opinion is true but how many will keep those words and apply it to their daily lives? 2 out of 10? that's why kuv thiaj li ask nej qhov opinion...yog tias tus understand ces khaws coj mus ua neej tsim txiaj, hos yog tus khaws tsis tau ib los coj mus ua neej, hais tag los nkag sab no tawm sab tov lawm xwb.
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Like I've stated, foom koom is supposed to be the last words of the deceased. If they could of said something before they passed, those would of been the words that they would of wanted for the survivors. The words are not for the many, but rather for the few. Only one or two person will take something out of it. Just like the educational system, we all go through it but only a few of us will make it big.
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Some family no longer bow when they do this. I went to a funeral once where they sat in chairs and you couldn't tell who was the xyob cuab or who wasn't and b/c they sat in chairs, they were busy talking among themselves. I didn't like that at all! One of my hsb's uncle is opting out the txiv xaiv part when he passes. He states that his children don't understand it and that he is not going to give the final blessing b/c ua neeg nyob lawm tsis mloog nwb lus.
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I too agree Txiv Xaiv can be left out. No one has the time and patience and kids do not give a damn or understand. You want to bless your kids do it while you are still alive. You want to love your parents, do it when they are still alive. The most important persons yuav tuaj foom ces yog maum phauj & txiv dab laug. Personally, tu txiv xaiv is not as important as someone close and dear to my parents and siblings.
yuav npam ces yog maum phuaj & txiv dab laug foom xwb. Yuav zoo los yog maum phauj /txiv dab laug foom.
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The Txiv Xaiv invokes deep emotions. Very good for a grieving time.
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if you understand it it's sad but it's also your choice if you wanna actually get one to do it for the person that pass away got a cousin who didn't get one for his mom's funeral but it's up to you if it was my parents or grandparents it'll be nice to get one hear there last word before they really go... just my opinion.
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The Txiv Xaiv, and the foom koom is one of the most important aspect to a Hmong funeral. It's true that some pay ridiculous amounts for it, but we pay even more for even more ludicrous things. When I look at the Txiv Xaiv, primarily when they foom koom, I don't view it as the Txiv Xaiv blessing the survivors, but more of an eulogoy. He gives voices to the decease, telling the family what would of the been the decease's last words.
The Txiv Xaiv can bless the family as much as they want, but if the family does not act on it nothing will come of it. Just because he said some good things to you it doesn't mean you will get it. You have to go out there and get it for yourself, the blessings will guide the way.
I like that part. Cov txawj mloog ces khaws tau cov lus nyiaj lus kub coj mus ua neej, cov tsis txawj mloog ces mloog nkag sab no tshwm sab tov lawm xwb os.
+1
I believe the txiv xaiv's role should never leave the funeral rituals. It is essential in the grieving process. Mloog cov lus txiv xaiv hais mas tu siab heev. Tabsis nws ho pab tau yus ua ib siab tias tus neeg yus hlub thiab nco npaum li cas los lawv mus tiag tiag lawm es kom nyob los ua zoo es lawv thiajli tso siab mus thiab. I know it was comforting words to me even though I cry.
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because pretty much what i get out of it is..
1)memories of the hardship your mother and father took to raised you up to be where you are today
2)nej nyob sib hlub, txhob sib ntau sib ceg cuag li miv thiab aub sis tog, luag luam yaj txhob nrog luag luam yaj, rau siab kawm ntaub kawm ntawv thiab muab yus lub zog coj mus khwv thiaj li tau noj.
3)nej nyob sib hlub, txhob mus ze luag poj ze luag nyab, txhob deev luag tej txiv, txhob mus ua tub sab tub nyiag, txhob mus twm txiaj yuam pov, ntxob mus quav yeeb quav tshuaj , txhob mus quav deb quav cawv..
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My dad do txiv xaiv for funerals. the amount ppl pay ppl to do txiv xaiv is small compare to them taking their time for three days straight to stay at the funeral and do it all night before burial.
So would u rather just do a open casket for 2hrs view and then buried right away in one day? if that is so, its sad. lol
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nothing in a mong funeral is required....ex cept qhuab ke, qeej tu siav, qeej nce neeg, and sawv kev.....the rest are just miscellaneous things, and not required.
yaweh
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My father's funeral, we didnt have a Txiv Xaiv, per his request. While he's still alive, he said, "Kuv tej lus nyiaj lus kub, tej koob tej hmoo, tej kev fajtimhuabtais, kev txawj kev ntshe, ces kuv twb muab tag rau nej, cov uas mloog kuv lus. Yog kuv tus mob tsis tso kuv tseg es kuv tso nej tseg, ces txhob kom lwm tus hais kuv li lus."
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nothing in a mong funeral is required....ex cept qhuab ke, qeej tu siav, qeej nce neeg, and sawv kev.....the rest are just miscellaneous things, and not required.
yaweh
I agree with you and that's why I don't see them as being religiously tied to Shamanism. However, many Christians think they are directly linked to Shamanism and violate Christian beliefs. But like you say, it's not required. It really is up to family preference.
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Txiv xaiv, if you're a Christian is similar to Proverbs and Psalms...yet it attached dearly to your deceased.
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Txiv Xaiv, yog txiv lus uas tus tuag tau xaiv tseg. Nws hais rau tus Txiv Xaiv hais tias yog tsis tuag los tseg yog hnub twg nws tuag ces kom tus Txiv Xaiv tuaj mus hais nws coj lus rau nws coj menyuam nyob rau tom qab. Yog li ntawd lub npe Txiv Xaiv thiaj li rhawv tawm los qhiav txog qhib phiaj mus txog ntuj rau txum lauj mem.
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Txiv Xaiv, yog txiv lus uas tus tuag tau xaiv tseg. Nws hais rau tus Txiv Xaiv hais tias yog tsis tuag los tseg yog hnub twg nws tuag ces kom tus Txiv Xaiv tuaj mus hais nws coj lus rau nws coj menyuam nyob rau tom qab. Yog li ntawd lub npe Txiv Xaiv thiaj li rhawv tawm los qhiav txog qhib phiaj mus txog ntuj rau txum lauj mem.
This is how i look at it...
Ua neej yog koj yog ib tug neeg paub niamtxiv txiaj ntsig; thaum tseem nyob koj hlub; koj ua rau noj; koj yuav rau hnav; mob los koj kho, ces tej lus nyiaj lus kub, koob hmoov luag yeej muab rau koj. Yog tias koj yog ib tug uas twb tsis care li, es thaum tuag mam li quaj ciaj quaj tuag, xyom xyom hauvcaug hletawv tag, mloog tej txiv xaiv tej lus npaum cas los pab tsis tau koj lawm...
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This is how i look at it...
Ua neej yog koj yog ib tug neeg paub niamtxiv txiaj ntsig; thaum tseem nyob koj hlub; koj ua rau noj; koj yuav rau hnav; mob los koj kho, ces tej lus nyiaj lus kub, koob hmoov luag yeej muab rau koj. Yog tias koj yog ib tug uas twb tsis care li, es thaum tuag mam li quaj ciaj quaj tuag, xyom xyom hauvcaug hletawv tag, mloog tej txiv xaiv tej lus npaum cas los pab tsis tau koj lawm...
Hais li ko los yeej yog...tabsis, kuv ho xav txawv me ntsis ntawm koj.
Tus txiv xaiv yog tsim los hais niamtxiv cov ncauj lug rau cov tubki, xwsli cov tubki uas tau tsom mus kawm txuj cij rau ib sab ntuj ib roog teb lawm. Thaum tus laus yuav tas nws txoj sia nws thiaj li yuav kom tus txiv xaiv los hais nws cov lus rau nws cov tubki. Yog tias koj ho yog tus tub uas niamtxiv tso mus kawm txuj ntawd es thaum koj hnov qheev tias koj niam koj txiv tau tag txoj sia lawm. Koj los txog tsev es tus laug ho tseg tsis tau tab tsi rau koj los yog teev tsis tau ib cov lus rau koj ho yuav xav li cas. Yog tias koj yeej yog tus nyob rawv ntawm tus laus ib sab coos kuaj nws tag txoj sia ces koj yeej paub zoo lawm tias koj txoj hlub rau nws zoo licas thiab yuav tau txais koob moov los tsis tau.
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Currently, txiv xaiv are not used at many funerals. However, the younger generations do not know this fact. Just because there is someone standing and singing to you does not mean they are within the position of a txiv xaiv. So, regarding this post, it's not disrespectful or should not provoke anger. If a reader was provoked by this post, they are simply just as uneducated about the subject as the poster.
I'd go on to provide more details, but I'd rather wait for a response that requires more information. It's not that I don't want to educate people. Rather, I don't want to write 10 pages, and find out that no one read it. LOL.
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Ingrates! They will never receive their "koojhmoov."
I appreciate the work that Txiv Xaivs do. Haiv Xim is the best/saddest part of the funeral.
I wouldn't say that people are disrespecting the txiv xaiv by sitting in their chairs to xyom. Traditionally, to xyom while sitting on the bare ground is not as correct as you think. To be very traditional, xyom sitting on the ground is for women. Xiam tuam mas xyom is for the men in which you stand, xyom, and return to a standing position.
Things change over time. Just because it doesn't match what you see in your eyes doesn't mean that it's wrong. Personally, people can xyom anyway they want. At the end of the day, whether you sit or stand or xiam tuam mas xyom, the people who benefit from the txiv xaiv is the person who actually comprehends it. In this day in age, I'd say 20% of the Hmong kids will understand.
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My sources are from my "xwb fwbs," and from my my grandfathers. I, too, practice txiv xaiv, so my knowledge comes from my experiences and my education. Whether my sources are of significance to you is.... well.... controversial because how do you know that my sources are a reputable sources. However, I remind you that a lot of our customs have been lost throughout the years. As a result, it would be difficult to distinguish the truth from a modified version or the false version. However, I recommend you ask around. Moreover, I continue to trust my sources because my personal experiences parallel their statements. To this day, I still see moob xiam tuam mas xyom, and they are usually lead by an elder who is a txiv xaiv or one that is very traditional.
I hope that I have provided you with a convincing argument. If not, I still challenge you to understand why moob today still xiam tuam mas xyom.
Take care, and update me if you got any new information.
LV
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i understand what they say when they sing. my little brother is carrying on the tradition by learning and singing too. it is the saddest part of the ritual.
at my uncle's funeral.... my siblings and my family sat all night listening. yes, a few were tired but we encouraged each other through. you don't sit for fun, you sit out of RESPECT. and those who know respect will either sit on their knees or on the chairs, but as long as they stay awake to hear the words.
towards the end when the singer was singing something along the lines of 'when the morning come you will no longer have a father...' i would have sit forever for the sun not to rise so that my uncle's spirit can stay with us a little longer. that's how much we all love and respect him. so what if your legs are numb for a bit? when you love and respect someone, you can deal with a few lost hours of sleep.
At the end of the day, whether you sit or stand or xiam tuam mas xyom, the people who benefit from the txiv xaiv is the person who actually comprehends it. In this day in age, I'd say 20% of the Hmong kids will understand.
^ i agree. and that's why i have closure. all the words that he said and everything i heard gave me closure.
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Currently, txiv xaiv are not used at many funerals. However, the younger generations do not know this fact. Just because there is someone standing and singing to you does not mean they are within the position of a txiv xaiv. So, regarding this post, it's not disrespectful or should not provoke anger. If a reader was provoked by this post, they are simply just as uneducated about the subject as the poster.
I'd go on to provide more details, but I'd rather wait for a response that requires more information. It's not that I don't want to educate people. Rather, I don't want to write 10 pages, and find out that no one read it. LOL.
since koj yog tus paub, tus txawj, please explained more rau peb cov ruam
ua tsaug
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I too agree Txiv Xaiv can be left out. No one has the time and patience and kids do not give a damn or understand. You want to bless your kids do it while you are still alive. You want to love your parents, do it when they are still alive. The most important persons yuav tuaj foom ces yog maum phauj & txiv dab laug. Personally, tu txiv xaiv is not as important as someone close and dear to my parents and siblings.
yuav npam ces yog maum phuaj & txiv dab laug foom xwb. Yuav zoo los yog maum phauj /txiv dab laug foom.
I so agree.
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Txiv xaiv, if you're a Christian is similar to Proverbs and Psalms...yet it attached dearly to your deceased.
Yeah but the Christians don't have to hear and bow to it all night long. Many were taught from a young age to read and memorize the verses. Cov txawj mloog txiv xaiv are the Old Gs.
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nothing in a mong funeral is required....ex cept qhuab ke, qeej tu siav, qeej nce neeg, and sawv kev.....the rest are just miscellaneous things, and not required.
yaweh
This is something the Hmong community as a whole has been debating for at least the past 10-years now in the US, primarily to cut cost and be more "mainstream" or Westernized. To an extent I have to agree due to all of the abuses, excessiveness, and un-traditional evolution (add-ons) nowadays.
As much as I enjoy, can appreciate, and respect "txiv coj xai", yes, it can be excluded, even eliminated altogether within a traditional Hmong funeral services/ceremony imho.
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Yeah but the Christians don't have to hear and bow to it all night long. Many were taught from a young age to read and memorize the verses. Cov txawj mloog txiv xaiv are the Old Gs.
tus txawj lub hmoob thiab ntawv hmoob thiaj paub cov tseem ntshiab lus ...
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Yeah but the Christians don't have to hear and bow to it all night long. Many were taught from a young age to read and memorize the verses. Cov txawj mloog txiv xaiv are the Old Gs.
It's all in Hmong, so if you're Hmong you'll know what they're saying. It's proverb, and blessing!!
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What I am about to say will probably offend many Hmong Txiv Xaiv because I think that the Txiv Xaiv Part should be taken out especially when foom kom to the children and many relatives. It can be an optional thing for the family of the deceased. I said that because obviously many doesn't know or care what they say and they bow and bow till sunrise. The family of the deceased can be paying up to 1k for just asking the gentlemen to come say a couple lectures about life(don't gamble, don't steal, don't go mess with other people's wives or husband, etc...)
what's your thoughts about it?
I agree! If you're a Christian, just go to church and read the bible. It's all about God's 10 commandments.
If you're not a Christian, just follow what your parents teach you everyday. Do not cheat, don't be lazy, live honestly, blah blah blah.. common sense stuff.
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Do you guys not know that txiv xaiv is not required during a funeral at all?
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Do you guys not know that txiv xaiv is not required during a funeral at all?
... kekeke ... :2funny:
Obviously U did not know that your "BASIC knowledge" is not required whatsoever ... KEKEKE ... >:D
Ha'HINT:
Txiv Xaiv is a major element/aspect of a/the traditional Hmong/Mong funeral rite/ceremony, exactly like the "kav xwm, tshwj kab, niam ua mov, txiv qeej/nruas etc.". As for it/their requirements, today within the 21st century, it has become optional/debatable. As is, or more so with respect/alignment to Hmong/Mong culture/customs and its inherent purpose -- yes, Txiv Xaiv is required, even mandatory, especially where "ib tug laus neeg tau tas sim neej uas muaj tub muaj ki puv vaj puv tsev". ... kekeke ... O0
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what a dumas...read your comment a few threads above WHEN YOU ANSWERED YAWEH...being forgetful is an excuse, but being an idiot and contradicting yourself is just you
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here are the things that can't be ignored
1. qhuabke
2. tusiav
3. tsa neeg
4. tshais/hmo/su (qeej)
5.sawv kev
if you are in a rush...
1, 2, 3, 5 RE REQUIRED
if you feel that the funeral is not necessary..the n just 1 is required...and then mam li tso plig
here r the people required
1. kavxim 2. tshwj kab 3, niam ua mov
3. cuab tsav
this the minimum...a funeral can go with these guys...no need for others
qhuab ke = 4 hours, tusiav = 4 hours (unless you are too dumb and repeat the whole qhuabke using the qeej), tshais/su/mo/sawvkev = 5 hours...
meaning that a funeral can be done in 1 days...and be buried the next day.
txiv xaiv is not required but "wanting" only...nothign else...for anyone who doesn't undersatnd this fact, GO HOME TO MOMMY AND LEARN MORE.