PebHmong Discussion Forum
News & Announcements => News Headlines => Hmong News => Topic started by: sweetvoice on April 04, 2015, 10:37:16 PM
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1. Vang and Moua were married in August 1993 in an arrangement between both families for $3,500, traditionally a dowry paid by the groom to the bride’s family. She was 12 and he was 21.
The woman is 33 years old and is now dead. Do the public need to know that she got married at age 12 to a man age 21 in her death report? If the age difference and arrangement of the wedding was wrong and not legal then why didn't the lady take action to sue the man and her parents when they are still alive and while she was in her twenties.
2.Vang claimed that she was abused — strangled, thrown on the floor, pushed and grabbed — during the 10 years she was married to Moua. They separated at the end of 2003 after a violent outbreak and a threat.
They were separated at the end of 2003
3.Vang was granted custody of her children in January 2004. Shortly after, she said Moua moved his girlfriend into their four-bedroom home and forced her and the children to live in the garage, according to court records.
After she got an annulment, the legal battles continued. Moua fell thousands behind on child support for their five kids and Vang said she was forced to live in the garage of the four-bedroom home they owned together, the same home where police served a search warrant Tuesday evening.
If they were separated at the end of 2003 then why did she come back to be in the same home with the man and his new lover and then got force to live in the garage with her children.
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Looks like she did not have a place to go after the divorce therefore the ex allowed her to move in the garage.
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Looks like she did not have a place to go after the divorce therefore the ex allowed her to move in the garage.
I don't know the reason why she move to be near or be in the garage that he exist.
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If the age difference and arrangement of the wedding was wrong and not legal then why didn't the lady take action to sue the man and her parents when they are still alive and while she was in her twenties. Just wondering how many of you in here can sue your parents and the man who force you to be marry at age 12? Sue them later in life when you are older and believe that is wrong to do to any young girl
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Well, if a child was given away at age 12 for marriage, the child was stripped of her free will to live. Her life was bargained, traded and gave away as a child bride to a total stranger. Nobody knows of what really happened in their marriage, except the fact that she faced many abuses and lacked happiness. One can only speculate that as a victim of many trials and tribulations, she probably was not cherished or protected, but threatened and neglected by the guardians. If she was in that condition for many years, she probably lacked the courage to fight back until her old age. Keep in mind, not everyone has the courage to fight back if threatened. Courage develops over time.
If we analyze her life, her parents failed her. Her husband failed her. Tradition failed her. She probably suffered many unhealed wounds.
Her age, innocence, free will, and happiness were all taken without her consent.
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This thread won't be the same without me saying this,
Because we live in America now hmong people should know that the man is to pay child support to the woman while she takes all the kids with her even though she lives in the garage. :-X
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If we analyze her life, her parents failed her. Her husband failed her. Tradition failed her. She probably suffered many unhealed wounds.
Her age, innocence, free will, and happiness were all taken without her consent.
In a traditional Hmong wedding especially back in the days and in the old countries, a girl (bride) really has no say in the matter. There were several opium overdosed instances when I lived in Laos and Thailand as that was the only way out for those poor girls...sad but true.
And she probably asked her parents or side for help but knowing how many elders operate once the money and bride changed hands, they just push her back into the abusive environment that she's been by using the typical, "go back, be patient, and work things out with your husband.." line. Probably explains why she had to stay in the "garage".
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In a traditional Hmong wedding especially back in the days and in the old countries, a girl (bride) really has no say in the matter. There were several opium overdosed instances when I lived in Laos and Thailand as that was the only way out for those poor girls...sad but true.
And she probably asked her parents or side for help but knowing how many elders operate once the money and bride changed hands, they just push her back into the abusive environment that she's been by using the typical, "go back, be patient, and work things out with your husband.." line. Probably explains why she had to stay in the "garage".
It appears that she faced mistreatment non-stopped to the very end. No one should have to live in the garage. That is just too cold-hearted, lacking humanistic compassion.
What are the conclusions on this case? Did anyone get convicted for their wrong doing? She deserves to have some justices.
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So, did the other two kids live in the garage with her, too? The ones with the new husband?
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Oh, haven't you heard? They both have died.
It appears that she faced mistreatment non-stopped to the very end. No one should have to live in the garage. That is just too cold-hearted, lacking humanistic compassion.
What are the conclusions on this case? Did anyone get convicted for their wrong doing? She deserves to have some justices.
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Oh, haven't you heard? They both have died.
No, I only know of what I read with the tidbits on Ph. Have I overlooked the article? Please link me?
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So, did the other two kids live in the garage with her, too? The ones with the new husband?
I think it only happen to her and the 5 kids in the beginning if it is true of them living in the garage. I don't think a father would be so cruel to do it to his own 5 kids. They probably have access to the house while he probably told her to stay in the garage until she moved out or have a place to go. She probably met the new husband and moved out finally. I think she want to sell the house but he's preventing the sale of it all these year. Who know if the house sell earlier when they separate then they won't have this problem and maybe just the back paid chikd support.
I think she lived in the garage 2-3 yrs and met new husband and moved out and then have 2 kids with him in 6-7 yrs. they've been together. There is no way she is living in the garage up to this accident with 2 of the kids from the new husband. If new husband failures to provided a home then something is wrong.
They did mentioned the new husband name when they did a fund donation for the 5 kids that are the biological parents that is now dead because they won't have a Easter without them anymore. The fund was count by the new husband for a total of $925 that day. I saw photo and look like my aunt Paula was the one helping to promote this along with the radio station.
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If the age difference and arrangement of the wedding was wrong and not legal then why didn't the lady take action to sue the man and her parents when they are still alive and while she was in her twenties. Just wondering how many of you in here can sue your parents and the man who force you to be marry at age 12? Sue them later in life when you are older and believe that is wrong to do to any young girl
Married at 12 yo to a 21 yo. She didn't have to followed through it. She could have ran away or do whatever to prevent it. Screw the Hmong custom of kidnap, arrange marriage, etc. It happened already but if not happy then why didn't she walk out earlier, why didn't she report to her teachers I'm married to a 21 yo., why didn't she say anything at the hospital when she gave birth that it was force/rape/etc. Its too late for all of that now when she went through it with 5 kids and not like he was holding a gun to her head.
I respect the Hmong culture/custom but marrying young has been a practice and acceptable for generation and not just a decade ago. One good thing is that at least there is a father and the child is nott abandoned or put us in situation where we would be having baby out of wedlock and then 3-5 kids without a father in the picture or question who is their daddy so be proud were not like Mev you see out there.
People excuses later in life is just crap of turning one another as the evil or bad one. It's wrong for a minor in that situation but it was never seen wrong in the eyes of the Hmong people and marriage still continued to be prosper for most until later in life when it the cheating, bad habit, lifestyle that just destroyed it. No marriage is perfect. It's normal for a couple to fight, have disagreement, a little dv or abuse, etc. Most people when asked to press charges why can't hey go through with it but always going back and doing the same thing all over again. Sometime death is the answer that end and resolved everything. Which just leave the child to suffer.
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Similar things keep happening/repeating because the issue has never been permanently fixed or addressed. We know we cannot control public criticism or prevent people from being so defensive, but as a whole, this sort of killing problem can be minimized.
We need to study, discuss, dissect and change most of the harmful elements/practices in our culture in order to become stronger and healthier for future generation.
As the saying goes, keep the good and throw the bad out. Same goes for our culture or traditional practices. We have to learn how to let go, so our cup won't be so full in order to absorb new values.
Peace.
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As the saying goes, keep the good and throw the bad out. Same goes for our culture or traditional practices. We have to learn how to let go, so our cup won't be so full in order to absorb new values.
Peace.
I see more and more Hmong letting go of the "bad" so I'm sure we will get there someday where the majority if not all will have the common sense to see the light...
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I see more and more Hmong letting go of the "bad" so I'm sure we will get there someday where the majority if not all will have the common sense to see the light...
I know, right?
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Her generation was the generation menyuam laib. Girls tend to disappear for days or months. I believe that a normal family will not let their daughter get marry at that young age. Unless she was menyuam laib and niamtxiv hais tsis tau es kam liam nws lawm xwb. But over all, as parents--please love your children. It's not about child support or who gets all the children. Help take care your children. Don't make each others suffer. Split the children evenly and raise them up. Be civil to each others.
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When I first heard of this I was like "dam duckking Hmong people". Guess I hit the nail when the names came out. This is a sad ending. Hmong men need to realize that ain't the only "cat" in the world.
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thanks for the update. I don't know what to think of this...It doesn't make any sense why she is living in the garage when it says they have been separated for 7 years, she works the clinic for 10 years. I'm assuming this is all because of revenge and bitterness.
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This has nothing to do with tradition.. culture or whatever. What it boils down to is, if she was treated so poorly, why didn't she leave? Don't tell me she had no where to go.. there are shelters, her parents? Siblings?
All those other options would have been better than living in an abusive husband's garage.
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That's what I'm curious about to. What about her parents place ? She had a decent job and I'm sure she would qualify for welfare.
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It's hard to say...
Having worked with DV victims in the past, I know that it's not as simple as we think for some...I personally have to encouraged some victims enough times before they can see the light and mustered enough courage to press charge against their abusers. And it's not just Asian victims but Black, Spanish, and White victims as well.
For some, they have been oppressed and traumatized for so long that they feel worthless and useless so even something as simple as calling 9-1-1 is hard for them to do.
You guys remembered the White girl (Elizabeth Smart?) from Lake Tahoe that was kidnapped?
She had several opportunities to escape but didn't because she didn't have the courage to after being traumatized for so long.
For this Vang girl, I bet she went to her side for help but was told to go back to her husband due to the "loose face" factor...
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Similar things keep happening/repeating because the issue has never been permanently fixed or addressed. We know we cannot control public criticism or prevent people from being so defensive, but as a whole, this sort of killing problem can be minimized.
We need to study, discuss, dissect and change most of the harmful elements/practices in our culture in order to become stronger and healthier for future generation.
As the saying goes, keep the good and throw the bad out. Same goes for our culture or traditional practices. We have to learn how to let go, so our cup won't be so full in order to absorb new values.
Peace.
Let's examine a few things.
Marry young and die young. It's not a culture nor traditional practice. It's a reality when you know you're going to live 40-50 yrs in a third world country - even less while being hunted down refugees. Now after being refugees with modern nutrition and medical care, the life expectancies has prolonged. No one knows how long they'll live to begin with.
Buying - buying a bride or buying a prostitute for life? It's not a culture nor traditional practice. It's the dark side of human society.
Hmong marriages - Did they ever filed for marriage? Probably not when she was a minor. She's not married. This court has no records of your marriage, but according to your cohabitation evidence...She knew what she was doing when she went to court. nuff said.
Hmong marriages - Does not have to involve any exchange of money. Yes truthfully traditional practice. Then how is one going to pay respect? There's options at negotiating table.
Lovers elope - Then claim they want to get married. Rebels.
Bride-napping - or kidnapping - groom-napping: Hey what ever happened to these issues? More deviant human behavior. Who's going to claim this as part of their culture? Pirates of the Jungle!
Don't get me wrong. When some Hmong want to claim parts of dark societal behavior as part of their Hmong culture, I just don't know what to say to that. Some things are just all about the realities of society.
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I've heard some say they were married in the old country, are there any truth to that? or were they married in the states?
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Let's examine a few things.
Marry young and die young. It's not a culture nor traditional practice. It's a reality when you know you're going to live 40-50 yrs in a third world country - even less while being hunted down refugees. Now after being refugees with modern nutrition and medical care, the life expectancies has prolonged. No one knows how long they'll live to begin with.
Buying - buying a bride or buying a prostitute for life? It's not a culture nor traditional practice. It's the dark side of human society.
Hmong marriages - Did they ever filed for marriage? Probably not when she was a minor. She's not married. This court has no records of your marriage, but according to your cohabitation evidence...She knew what she was doing when she went to court. nuff said.
Hmong marriages - Does not have to involve any exchange of money. Yes truthfully traditional practice. Then how is one going to pay respect? There's options at negotiating table.
Lovers elope - Then claim they want to get married. Rebels.
Bride-napping - or kidnapping - groom-napping: Hey what ever happened to these issues? More deviant human behavior. Who's going to claim this as part of their culture? Pirates of the Jungle!
Don't get me wrong. When some Hmong want to claim parts of dark societal behavior as part of their Hmong culture, I just don't know what to say to that. Some things are just all about the realities of society.
Not sure what to make of your response, but its all about personal identities.
Even though all of us are of the same Hmong origin, we practice/recognize the same set of values differently. Therefore, we are of not one, but many people with many distinguished characteristic s, knowledge, experiences and belief systems. With that being said, if people claim certain aspects of their culture as part of their Hmong culture, it is actually not incorrect because its a part of who they are/know.
I believe there are some good traditional values as well as modern values. We just have allow people the freedom to choose, so hopefully, all the negative values can be replaced by the positive ones.
Each to their own interest/preferences based on their own limited understanding. That is the reality.
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Not sure what to make of your response, but its all about personal identities.
Even though all of us are of the same Hmong origin, we practice/recognize the same set of values differently. Therefore, we are of not one, but many people with many distinguished characteristic s, knowledge, experiences and belief systems. With that being said, if people claim certain aspects of their culture as part of their Hmong culture, it is actually not incorrect because its a part of who they are/know.
I believe there are some good traditional values as well as modern values. We just have allow people the freedom to choose, so hopefully, all the negative values can be replaced by the positive ones.
Each to their own interest/preferences based on their own limited understanding. That is the reality.
So this goes back to culture being attributed to one individual's practice - when followed becomes tradition - when there's a local following becomes a culture. The Hmong experience, even globally human society has become more deviant. This freedom of expression leads to more coming out of the closet behaviors. Now some people out of ignorance are going to vocally claim those things as traditional culture. Perhaps it is, perhaps it's not. We understand how American pop culture works, so in a way it can be done. However the confusion is Hmong people claiming American pop culture as traditional Hmong culture. These things are so blended that people can no longer separate one or the other. What's even worst is erroneous/derogatory labels are being applied and ignorant people are continuously using them.
Ask a Hmong what takes place on July 4th. Oh it's a traditional holiday where we hold a big time soccer tournament and other sports.
Ask a Hmong what takes place on Thanksgiving. Oh it's a tradition for Hmong New Year. (You mean Hmong Thanksgiving. No Hmong New Year.)
We know how easily Hmong can assimilate other cultures where ever they end up populating. Our identity becomes permutations and we just start claiming things as culture. Things like selling brides, kidnapping brides, multiple wives, are now part of the claimed culture. Maybe it's all superficial, but nonetheless we are tagged with those associations as our identity now.
This murder-suicide will blow over as soon as the media finds something else juicy.
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thanks for the update. I don't know what to think of this...It doesn't make any sense why she is living in the garage when it says they have been separated for 7 years, she works the clinic for 10 years. I'm assuming this is all because of revenge and bitterness.
Separated in 2003.
Lived in home and then garage for couple of year.
Met new husband that she has 2 kids and then moved out which is 7 yrs.
Worked at the clinic 10 yrs.
What I don't understand is why she still at the house unless she has the right to lived there because they owned it together. What about her family, sibling, etc. she was grant custody of the 5 kids in 2004 so might as well get out and then tried to sell the house but he was preventing the sale of it.
Most people don't like to pay child support. There is pros and cons.
The guy funeral is this weekend. I might stop by as I know some of the Moua.....
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Why fight for the house when you're not even legally married..too much hassle. She may have the right to still live there, however if the ex husband already remarried...it s pointless to live together for the sake of the kids. I would have moved far far away.
Keep us updated.
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Make no mistake about it, the Hmong are a very resourceful people and perhaps it is this resourcefulnes s that will be our downfall as well. In every situation, where we have encountered a new race, a different culture or a new nation. We have not only adapted but have thrive, in most cases, only in a few generations.
Migrating to the US has been no different... here, we have thrive, living in all 50 states, having and raising children and our children having and raising the next generation of Hmongs. The main difference is that here in the US, Money and the pursue of wealth, has taken a front seat to everything else we hold true as Hmong values. Sure, we have seen this in the past, but it is nothing on a scale of this magnitude. Here, Money is the way and the only way... perhaps a trait we adapted from capitalism.
For anyone to see my point... let me give an example.
The Bride Price as practice from the old days, was meant to compensate the mother and father of the bride. Money given in exchange for the void and burden of losing a daughter, a compensation to the parents for all those years of having to feed and raise the daughter and to some extend, the bride price serves as insurance that the marriage will last.
Traditionally, when a couple divorces... fault is usually assigned, whether fair or just is another debate... But non the less, fault is assigned to the best of our ability and the assets of the marriage are divided accordingly.
The death of this man and this women, tragic as it may seem, could have been avoided. We stand at a cross roads, my Hmong people. This culture and the standards of this country are too strict for us to have it both ways... both Hmong values and American standards.
You either say only marriages that fall within lines of US standards are acceptable... by this I mean, be of legal age, non related, and there is no bride price. Or you say, fine you can married at 12, be related, and bride price must be paid... but when you divorce you cannot and must not involve the courts. Sounds extreme? Right... but that's how it has to be.
Don't just involve the rules and laws of this country when it suits you or only when you can benefit from it.
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Separated in 2003.
Lived in home and then garage for couple of year.
Met new husband that she has 2 kids and then moved out which is 7 yrs.
Worked at the clinic 10 yrs.
What I don't understand is why she still at the house unless she has the right to lived there because they owned it together. What about her family, sibling, etc. she was grant custody of the 5 kids in 2004 so might as well get out and then tried to sell the house but he was preventing the sale of it.
Most people don't like to pay child support. There is pros and cons.
The guy funeral is this weekend. I might stop by as I know some of the Moua.....
Make sure to punch him in his casket for me!
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Here's a clue: What currency would $3,500.00 be?
I've heard some say they were married in the old country, are there any truth to that? or were they married in the states?
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Everyone so smarty n Americanize but yet only swings back around Hmong men/women. Heck if I tuff like u guy I bang black/mex/white n forget sticky/stinky uncivilize Hmong ... Like u all mention n hate so much...
I guess most just like to talk shiit bout fire from afar ... O0
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the problem is not bride price nor tradition. the problem is.... domestic violence... and respecting each other's space after you've divorced....wh y was she even at HIS house? who knows?
but in regards to her being married at 12 years old.... i recall in 1993... many hmong girls whom were 12-15....they were the reasons they married guys over 21.... they ran away with their husbands because they were head over heals for those older guys.... they were not FORCED to marry these older men at that time.... it was THEIR decisions.... against the wills of their parents...from what i've witness... some of these same girls.... once they reach 21+ they realized... oh they want to partay and not be a mother... so they blame it on their husbands and parents and traditions for taking advantage of their innocence... even though it was them whom said they'd die if their parents don't allow to marry their older husbands....
stop blaming traditions and parents. ::)
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the problem is not bride price nor tradition. the problem is.... domestic violence... and respecting each other's space after you've divorced....wh y was she even at HIS house? who knows?
but in regards to her being married at 12 years old.... i recall in 1993... many hmong girls whom were 12-15....they were the reasons they married guys over 21.... they ran away with their husbands because they were head over heals for those older guys.... they were not FORCED to marry these older men at that time.... it was THEIR decisions.... against the wills of their parents...from what i've witness... some of these same girls.... once they reach 21+ they realized... oh they want to partay and not be a mother... so they blame it on their husbands and parents and traditions for taking advantage of their innocence... even though it was them whom said they'd die if their parents don't allow to marry their older husbands....
stop blaming traditions and parents. ::)
I would humbly disagree... it has everything to do with tradition and brideprice is part of that tradition. You, yourself just said in 1993, many girls ages 12-15 were married. SO, how can you say that is not traditional? In this society and in state, CAlIFORNIA, You must be of 18 years old to marry... there are other minor requirements, but 18 is the main one. So how can a 12-15 year old girl marry in the eyes of the law? The answer is, it was a cultural and traditional Hmong wedding only. The Brideprice comes into play because it is a traditional wedding and when the husband is resentful for paying it.
In this case, the girl went to the courts and asked the court to impose child support and maybe even spousal support on the man. The property in dispute was also to be sold so any profits can be divided. The man refuse, saying it was his home and he purchased with his money. When you put a man up against the wall... what do you think will happen??? When he has no outlet, and in his eyes, no other option. Well, I guess we can all see the result now? Right?
Everyone is at fault here, in my opinion.
1. The parents are at fault for allowing this to happen. Yes, she is a minor at the time. And as such, the parents have control of what a minor does, no matter what her wishes are.
2. The husband is at fault for being abusive and selfish.
3. The wife is at fault. She knew her husband was abusive yet stay. In her last days, she wanted him to pay and the only way to hurt him was to make him sale his home. Should and could have been more civil.
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I would humbly disagree... it has everything to do with tradition and brideprice is part of that tradition. You, yourself just said in 1993, many girls ages 12-15 were married. SO, how can you say that is not traditional? In this society and in state, CAlIFORNIA, You must be of 18 years old to marry... there are other minor requirements, but 18 is the main one. So how can a 12-15 year old girl marry in the eyes of the law? The answer is, it was a cultural and traditional Hmong wedding only. The Brideprice comes into play because it is a traditional wedding and when the husband is resentful for paying it.
In this case, the girl went to the courts and asked the court to impose child support and maybe even spousal support on the man. The property in dispute was also to be sold so any profits can be divided. The man refuse, saying it was his home and he purchased with his money. When you put a man up against the wall... what do you think will happen??? When he has no outlet, and in his eyes, no other option. Well, I guess we can all see the result now? Right?
Everyone is at fault here, in my opinion.
1. The parents are at fault for allowing this to happen. Yes, she is a minor at the time. And as such, the parents have control of what a minor does, no matter what her wishes are.
2. The husband is at fault for being abusive and selfish.
3. The wife is at fault. She knew her husband was abusive yet stay. In her last days, she wanted him to pay and the only way to hurt him was to make him sale his home. Should and could have been more civil.
Very well explained. I totally agree with the viewpoints.
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the problem is not bride price nor tradition. the problem is.... domestic violence... and respecting each other's space after you've divorced....wh y was she even at HIS house? who knows?
but in regards to her being married at 12 years old.... i recall in 1993... many hmong girls whom were 12-15....they were the reasons they married guys over 21.... they ran away with their husbands because they were head over heals for those older guys.... they were not FORCED to marry these older men at that time.... it was THEIR decisions.... against the wills of their parents...from what i've witness... some of these same girls.... once they reach 21+ they realized... oh they want to partay and not be a mother... so they blame it on their husbands and parents and traditions for taking advantage of their innocence... even though it was them whom said they'd die if their parents don't allow to marry their older husbands....
stop blaming traditions and parents. ::)
It almost seems as the husband, parents and traditions all succumbed to the desire/whine of a 12 year old?
I don't think its fair for anyone to say that a 12 year old can make sound decision at that age. Even if she was dying to get married, the parents are the ones with principles, not the child.
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Let's just stop blaming this and that. All you guys need to ask yourself is if, in this situation, killing another human being is absolutely necessary. Of course it isn't. The end.
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My opinion about the whole situation is that even if the dead female did agreed to be married to a man who was 21 years old her parents should never agreed or approved to it since she was only 12 years. The parents should of reported the guy as a child molester. Anyway, the dead female's marriage with the her child molester husband was wrong but she choose not to take action to put him away in prison in her thirties. It is very sad to see that the dead woman never got the true answer on why her parents was supporting the idea of allowing a 21 man to sleep with her. I honestly believe that not ALL female know or will admit in their life that it is not okay for a 21 years old man to be sleeping with a 12 years old girl.
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Just think deep.......how many of you would allow a 21 years old man to be married and sleep with your daughter at age 12
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It almost seems as the husband, parents and traditions all succumbed to the desire/whine of a 12 year old?
I don't think its fair for anyone to say that a 12 year old can make sound decision at that age. Even if she was dying to get married, the parents are the ones with principles, not the child.
Perhaps...she could've been the more educated then her own parents. She could've been more aware of her situation. I didn't see her making any big deal of losing her virginity...so we can guess whatever logic to that, if any logical thinking is to be applied. I didn't see her making any big deal of being against the decision of being sold either. They could've been Romeo and Juliette for all we know.
Maybe her new husband is worse and them two Ex's just wanted to make a blood oath to the underworld? Too convenient how one has perfect knowledge of the workplace and bee line straight to a murder-suicide scenario.
Things that we will never know...
the problem is not bride price nor tradition. the problem is.... domestic violence... and respecting each other's space after you've divorced....wh y was she even at HIS house? who knows?
but in regards to her being married at 12 years old.... i recall in 1993... many hmong girls whom were 12-15....they were the reasons they married guys over 21.... they ran away with their husbands because they were head over heals for those older guys.... they were not FORCED to marry these older men at that time.... it was THEIR decisions.... against the wills of their parents...from what i've witness... some of these same girls.... once they reach 21+ they realized... oh they want to partay and not be a mother... so they blame it on their husbands and parents and traditions for taking advantage of their innocence... even though it was them whom said they'd die if their parents don't allow to marry their older husbands....
stop blaming traditions and parents. ::)
Romeo and Juliet complex...plus gangsta rebel pop culture...and YOLO lifestyles.
Just never know what people base their decisions on...
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Just think deep.......how many of you would allow a 21 years old man to be married and sleep with your daughter at age 12
The thinking is: marry young die young...where people only live up to 40-50 yrs old...
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Let's just stop blaming this and that. All you guys need to ask yourself is if, in this situation, killing another human being is absolutely necessary. Of course it isn't. The end.
For love, for self-preservation, for hate, for justice, etc.,...
...not everyone can de-nature human nature...
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I would humbly disagree... it has everything to do with tradition and brideprice is part of that tradition. You, yourself just said in 1993, many girls ages 12-15 were married. SO, how can you say that is not traditional? In this society and in state, CAlIFORNIA, You must be of 18 years old to marry... there are other minor requirements, but 18 is the main one. So how can a 12-15 year old girl marry in the eyes of the law? The answer is, it was a cultural and traditional Hmong wedding only. The Brideprice comes into play because it is a traditional wedding and when the husband is resentful for paying it.
In this case, the girl went to the courts and asked the court to impose child support and maybe even spousal support on the man. The property in dispute was also to be sold so any profits can be divided. The man refuse, saying it was his home and he purchased with his money. When you put a man up against the wall... what do you think will happen??? When he has no outlet, and in his eyes, no other option. Well, I guess we can all see the result now? Right?
Everyone is at fault here, in my opinion.
1. The parents are at fault for allowing this to happen. Yes, she is a minor at the time. And as such, the parents have control of what a minor does, no matter what her wishes are.
2. The husband is at fault for being abusive and selfish.
3. The wife is at fault. She knew her husband was abusive yet stay. In her last days, she wanted him to pay and the only way to hurt him was to make him sale his home. Should and could have been more civil.
Putting the blame on tradition and parents is nothing but an excuse. What an excuse to make our traditions parents the bad guys.... ::) our traditions have always been ever so changing to environments and times....
I grew up with such girls.... and these girls are the ones who let themselves make these major decisions when they are 12-15 years old. What are parents to do? What would you do if your 12 year run off or elope to be with her 21 year old BF or live with him? Would you call the cops on her and send her to live in Foster home? Send her to juvie? What if she'd threatened to kill herself in front of you? Would you send her to a mental home to be medicated? Not all but most of the girls who do marry early are emotionally unstable.... always blaming others for their bad decisions... sure.. perhaps parents should have sent these girls to mental homes... to be medicated to save them from making bad decisions.... perhaps...
bottom line is.... if you want out of your marriage... leave on good terms and stop instigating... move far away and leave other person alone so s/he can heal... don't need to hurt them by bankrupting him/her....
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Perhaps...she could've been the more educated then her own parents. She could've been more aware of her situation. I didn't see her making any big deal of losing her virginity...so we can guess whatever logic to that, if any logical thinking is to be applied. I didn't see her making any big deal of being against the decision of being sold either. They could've been Romeo and Juliette for all we know.
Maybe her new husband is worse and them two Ex's just wanted to make a blood oath to the underworld? Too convenient how one has perfect knowledge of the workplace and bee line straight to a murder-suicide scenario.
Things that we will never know...
Romeo and Juliet complex...plus gangsta rebel pop culture...and YOLO lifestyles.
Just never know what people base their decisions on...
You make quite the assumption there with all unproven speculations. From your perspective, if the horse is dead, instead of diagnosing the problem, you say its safe to speculate that the horse could have spoken up or done something differently at 12 years old?
I don't know man. If a child could make decision at 12 years old, why couldn't a child vote already? Its alright to make speculations, but it is not alright to use speculation to shroud up a murder case connecting to traditional practice. You have to put all facts on the table or all bets are off.
There is a rumor that the Feds are investigating into this type of child bride within the Hmong. I hope that if we are only making speculations, we don't build ourselves into a corner with unproven speculations.
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Putting the blame on tradition and parents is nothing but an excuse. What an excuse to make our traditions parents the bad guys.... ::) our traditions have always been ever so changing to environments and times....
I grew up with such girls.... and these girls are the ones who let themselves make these major decisions when they are 12-15 years old. What are parents to do? What would you do if your 12 year run off or elope to be with her 21 year old BF or live with him? Would you call the cops on her and send her to live in Foster home? Send her to juvie? What if she'd threatened to kill herself in front of you? Would you send her to a mental home to be medicated? Not all but most of the girls who do marry early are emotionally unstable.... always blaming others for their bad decisions... sure.. perhaps parents should have sent these girls to mental homes... to be medicated to save them from making bad decisions.... perhaps...
bottom line is.... if you want out of your marriage... leave on good terms and stop instigating... move far away and leave other person alone so s/he can heal... don't need to hurt them by bankrupting him/her....
Yes, call the cops, send her to juvie, send her to a mental home, or do something about it. If the parents don't protest, no matter how many years later, if there are problems occurring, the problem will always be connected to the parents. It doesn't matter how you look at it, this case is big time connecting to the parents.
Try explaining to the feds/court once they are subpoena to stand trial for violating the laws.
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Yes, call the cops, send her to juvie, send her to a mental home, or do something about it. If the parents don't protest, no matter how many years later, if there are problems occurring, the problem will always be connected to the parents. It doesn't matter how you look at it, this case is big time connecting to the parents.
Try explaining to the feds/court once they are subpoena to stand trial for violating the laws.
So you are saying put her parents in jail...along with the groom right? And 12 year olds who want to marry need to be institutionali zed.....and medicated because she is mentally not all there.....I agree....this will teach them....becaus e this has nothing to do with our culture....in 1993 here in america girls weren't forced to marry...ESPN 12 year olds.
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So you are saying put her parents in jail...along with the groom right? And 12 year olds who want to marry need to be institutionali zed.....and medicated because she is mentally not all there.....I agree....this will teach them....becaus e this has nothing to do with our culture....in 1993 here in america girls weren't forced to marry...ESPN 12 year olds.
Remove culture from the problem. Look from the perspective of a 12 year old being married to a 21 year old. From her side of the family, who is responsible for her well being and safety? Is it the child her own guardian, or were there parents involved?
If the parents were involved, yes, by all means, lock them up for their wrong doing. What is wrong with that?
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You make quite the assumption there with all unproven speculations. From your perspective, if the horse is dead, instead of diagnosing the problem, you say its safe to speculate that the horse could have spoken up or done something differently at 12 years old?
I don't know man. If a child could make decision at 12 years old, why couldn't a child vote already? Its alright to make speculations, but it is not alright to use speculation to shroud up a murder case connecting to traditional practice. You have to put all facts on the table or all bets are off.
There is a rumor that the Feds are investigating into this type of child bride within the Hmong. I hope that if we are only making speculations, we don't build ourselves into a corner with unproven speculations.
You're missing the part of logical thinking/reasoning. Call it logical speculating then.
Like AOZ, I am fully capable of making adult decision at the age of 12 yrs old - no I'm not speculating nor shrouding anything. In fact I was more than capable from the age of 10 and more than capable of cooking for myself from the age of 5. Yes, I used a sharp knife and still have all my fingers. (Well I burned a lot of food, but still didn't burn myself). I made my decision at 5 yrs of age to eat my own cooking. This is my perspective. From my perspective - waiting till a person is 18 to be recognize as capable of making any decision is like retracting all emancipated minors.
Voting is a bad comparison - since the law would only recognized 18 yrs of age. An emancipated minor still can't vote.
Was she so incapable of making any decision? - that required the law to take her children away from her because she was still a minor with children?
I may speculate that her and his parents weren't college degree city folks and she and he is more educated than her parents. Yet there's a logic to that. Our parents a majority of refugees - farmers. Yes, unproven speculation - cuz I don't know her parents. Now if I speculate that they be college degreed city folks and still allowed this, then let the law punish her parents and his parents. Logic would dictate that they ought to know better.
In the court room = lawyers aren't going to put all the facts on the table. They're only going to put the only facts that are favorable to them. So which is it? I can state as a fact that I'm capable of decisions at 12 yrs old. While you can state as a fact that you're not able to make decisions at 12 yrs old. Neither of this is speculation.
American society thinks people are stupid till 18 yrs. Yet stupidity doesn't care about age.
Our parent's and before had a society of necessity for early marriage. Like I state the necessity of life - 40-50 yrs life span.
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You're missing the part of logical thinking/reasoning. Call it logical speculating then.
Like AOZ, I am fully capable of making adult decision at the age of 12 yrs old - no I'm not speculating nor shrouding anything. In fact I was more than capable from the age of 10 and more than capable of cooking for myself from the age of 5. Yes, I used a sharp knife and still have all my fingers. (Well I burned a lot of food, but still didn't burn myself). I made my decision at 5 yrs of age to eat my own cooking. This is my perspective. From my perspective - waiting till a person is 18 to be recognize as capable of making any decision is like retracting all emancipated minors.
Voting is a bad comparison - since the law would only recognized 18 yrs of age. An emancipated minor still can't vote.
Was she so incapable of making any decision? - that required the law to take her children away from her because she was still a minor with children?
I may speculate that her and his parents weren't college degree city folks and she and he is more educated than her parents. Yet there's a logic to that. Our parents a majority of refugees - farmers. Yes, unproven speculation - cuz I don't know her parents. Now if I speculate that they be college degreed city folks and still allowed this, then let the law punish her parents and his parents. Logic would dictate that they ought to know better.
In the court room = lawyers aren't going to put all the facts on the table. They're only going to put the only facts that are favorable to them. So which is it? I can state as a fact that I'm capable of decisions at 12 yrs old. While you can state as a fact that you're not able to make decisions at 12 yrs old. Neither of this is speculation.
American society thinks people are stupid till 18 yrs. Yet stupidity doesn't care about age.
Our parent's and before had a society of necessity for early marriage. Like I state the necessity of life - 40-50 yrs life span.
We are not living in a self-governing community where everyone can be an adult at age 5, 6, or 12 years old. The law is the law and 18 is considered an adult. That is not speculation, its a fact.
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We are not living in a self-governing community where everyone can be an adult at age 5, 6, or 12 years old. The law is the law and 18 is considered an adult. That is not speculation, its a fact.
No - the law as a fact allows for emancipated minors.
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No - the law as a fact allows for emancipated minors.
In that case, for all the minors that got married before their 18 birthday, let them all be trialed as adults if they are found guilty of criminal offense. I feel like the murder-suicide case in Fresno isn't the only child bride case. You guys convince me that the child bride issue is more of an epidemic in Hmong community.
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Even in our Hmong society...
12 yrs old loses virginity = marriage. That's what our social logic was before coming to America. If someone chooses to do the deed then they are socially regulated when convicted. Or they face, corporeal punishment = 4 bull death body stretched, if their social laws condemn them to so.
You can't expect some transplanted mountain villagers refugees to suddenly understand the laws and customs of the land they emigrated to, especially when you may have illiterate adults making decisions. If that be the case, then a literate 12 yrs old if far more equipped than those illiterate adults.
If these refugees - say a minor with children according to US laws...making decisions for his/her family. Already socially recognized as the decision maker equal to any adult capacity, comes over to USA, then what? For the sake of argument - this person just so happen to be fully literate in English and fully educated, so we can't argue the point of them misunderstandi ng - we gonna say, you're just a child - we are going to take your children away from you and put them into an orphanage. No we aren't. The emancipated minor law - should automatically apply to them and give them full recognition as an adult. At which point the parents of this person - wouldn't need to be consulted for decisions on any matter. (Although we know Hmong people by social norms - makes decision as a family). Call it a micro-democracy of the family.
So logic applied to our murder-suicide case scenario - going back to the time of her marriage - for her to now argue that she was too young = looking like missing some information.
So does this logic of speculation = diagnosing the cause (of the problem)?
So I surmise/speculate = her marriage in question, is it related to her virginity? = diagnosing the problem.
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In that case, for all the minors that got married before their 18 birthday, let them all be trialed as adults if they are found guilty of criminal offense. I feel like the murder-suicide case in Fresno isn't the only child bride case. You guys convince me that the child bride issue is more of an epidemic in Hmong community.
Yeah, it is. It puts them on a societal disadvantage. However each person makes their decisions. Should they regret it later, don't play that - I was too young card. Especially when they're literate and understand US customs and laws.
(Don't date until you're 18...) >:D >:D >:D
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Yeah, it is. It puts them on a societal disadvantage. However each person makes their decisions. Should they regret it later, don't play that - I was too young card. Especially when they're literate and understand US customs and laws.
(Don't date until you're 18...) >:D >:D >:D
Apparently, according to you, all kids mature at age 5, 6 and 12 and all parents are blameless. This must be some backwardness that I'm not well in tune with. Good luck with your personal defense. I think I'll stick with the law of the country, not the people because people like you will bring me down to your level and win over with your experience.
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Apparently, according to you, all kids mature at age 5, 6 and 12 and all parents are blameless. This must be some backwardness that I'm not well in tune with. Good luck with your personal defense. I think I'll stick with the law of the country, not the people because people like you will bring me down to your level and win over with your experience.
How you came to that conclusion is your opinion.
People like me...I'm just trying to put all the facts on the table. Not being on defense nor accusation. Not trying to witch hunt someone or find blame on one thing. Not imposing anything on anyone, well perhaps I'm imposing a neutrality (jury duty pov). I apologize for trying to bring you down to my level of open mindedness.
Short List of some facts/topics:
Hmong people longevity 40-50 yrs old.
Hmong society adulthood recognition before USA is not regulated to age of 18 yrs old.
Hmong decision making process - involving the whole family
Hmong refugee with high majority of illiteracy
Educated and literate minors surpassing their parents
Hmong marriage customs and traditions - the shenanigans - the respectful methods - the disrespectful methods, the arranged marriages, the kidnapped marriages, etc.,...
Rebel teenagers
USA laws of emancipated minor
Negligence of prior judge and case workers - her claimed - sold, DV = resulted in only annulment of marriage
Her finalized divorce - yet she still lived with the ex.
So many unanswerable questions...en d of discussion.
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How you came to that conclusion is your opinion.
People like me...I'm just trying to put all the facts on the table. Not being on defense nor accusation. Not trying to witch hunt someone or find blame on one thing. Not imposing anything on anyone, well perhaps I'm imposing a neutrality (jury duty pov). I apologize for trying to bring you down to my level of open mindedness.
Short List of some facts/topics:
Hmong people longevity 40-50 yrs old.
Hmong society adulthood recognition before USA is not regulated to age of 18 yrs old.
Hmong decision making process - involving the whole family
Hmong refugee with high majority of illiteracy
Educated and literate minors surpassing their parents
Hmong marriage customs and traditions - the shenanigans - the respectful methods - the disrespectful methods, the arranged marriages, the kidnapped marriages, etc.,...
Rebel teenagers
USA laws of emancipated minor
Negligence of prior judge and case workers - her claimed - sold, DV = resulted in only annulment of marriage
Her finalized divorce - yet she still lived with the ex.
So many unanswerable questions...en d of discussion.
Hmong traditions cannot supercede US constitutional laws and will not win over a child bride murder case. You seem to think that you are above the law and have the power to determine who is mature at 5,6, 12 are not very credible.
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How you came to that conclusion is your opinion.
People like me...I'm just trying to put all the facts on the table. Not being on defense nor accusation. Not trying to witch hunt someone or find blame on one thing. Not imposing anything on anyone, well perhaps I'm imposing a neutrality (jury duty pov). I apologize for trying to bring you down to my level of open mindedness.
Short List of some facts/topics:
Hmong people longevity 40-50 yrs old.
Hmong society adulthood recognition before USA is not regulated to age of 18 yrs old.
Hmong decision making process - involving the whole family
Hmong refugee with high majority of illiteracy
Educated and literate minors surpassing their parents
Hmong marriage customs and traditions - the shenanigans - the respectful methods - the disrespectful methods, the arranged marriages, the kidnapped marriages, etc.,...
Rebel teenagers
USA laws of emancipated minor
Negligence of prior judge and case workers - her claimed - sold, DV = resulted in only annulment of marriage
Her finalized divorce - yet she still lived with the ex.
So many unanswerable questions...en d of discussion.
According to Wiki of 2012, the life expectancy are as followings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)
#36 USA Country, the average male life expectancy is 77.4 years and female is 82.2 years
#78 Thailand Country, the average male life expectancy is 71.4 and female is 78.4
#136 Laos Country, the average male life expectancy is 66.5 and female is 69.5
Where did you get your statistics to support your claim of 40-50 years old?
In reference to your second point above, we are not living the Hmong country, we are citizens of the United States so we are all governed by the constitutional law and not Hmong law.
In reference to your third point above, if decision making involves the whole family, then why isn't the whole family responsible for the child bride issue. You previously stated that the child at 12 was mature and made her own decision, so she cannot blame the parents. Why are you going back and forth in your response?
In reference to your fourth point above, Hmong has lived in the United States for 40 years. As interconnected as we are all, if one parent lack the understanding of the law, one of the relatives usually step up to help. Illiteracy is cannot absolve a criminal offense.
In reference to your fifth point, that is just dumb. We, as children, always are obedient to your parents. It does not matter how well educated we are, we hold our parents in the utmost esteem and honor. We don't ever for once think that we are above our parents. Where did you get your facts again?
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This is just dumb, we obeyed our parents, got married young, can't blame our parents, cuz we decided to enjoy intercourse education, thought was so smart and gonna squeeze some balls, didn't even live to 40 years old, cuz got killed, hope the bastard get's his, oh wait he tripped and shot himself, what a farce, facts of life, petty argument, gotta prove this and that, wasn't born yesterday, punishment equals the crime, too young to realize, 18 yrs is an absolute law, have to pick a side, be pretentious, facetious, sarcastic, cynical, synonymous, keep dragging this till the cows come home, play melodrama, lets be illiterate and liberalize it, lets be educated conservatively, etc.,...
So boring...
knock knock
who's there
who
who who
who who who who
***crickets chirping***
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This is just dumb, we obeyed our parents, got married young, can't blame our parents, cuz we decided to enjoy intercourse education, thought was so smart and gonna squeeze some balls, didn't even live to 40 years old, cuz got killed, hope the bastard get's his, oh wait he tripped and shot himself, what a farce, facts of life, petty argument, gotta prove this and that, wasn't born yesterday, punishment equals the crime, too young to realize, 18 yrs is an absolute law, have to pick a side, be pretentious, facetious, sarcastic, cynical, synonymous, keep dragging this till the cows come home, play melodrama, lets be illiterate and liberalize it, lets be educated conservatively, etc.,...
So boring...
knock knock
who's there
who
who who
who who who who
***crickets chirping***
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Putting the blame on tradition and parents is nothing but an excuse. What an excuse to make our traditions parents the bad guys.... ::) our traditions have always been ever so changing to environments and times....
I grew up with such girls.... and these girls are the ones who let themselves make these major decisions when they are 12-15 years old. What are parents to do? What would you do if your 12 year run off or elope to be with her 21 year old BF or live with him? Would you call the cops on her and send her to live in Foster home? Send her to juvie? What if she'd threatened to kill herself in front of you? Would you send her to a mental home to be medicated? Not all but most of the girls who do marry early are emotionally unstable.... always blaming others for their bad decisions... sure.. perhaps parents should have sent these girls to mental homes... to be medicated to save them from making bad decisions.... perhaps...
bottom line is.... if you want out of your marriage... leave on good terms and stop instigating... move far away and leave other person alone so s/he can heal... don't need to hurt them by bankrupting him/her....
Perhaps I am not understanding your definition of Tradition here... maybe you can explain it to us.
Google translates "Tradition" as "the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation"...and this definition is generally the widely accepted meaning.
Hmong people have allowed 12 year older or younger to marry for as long as we can remember. It has been passed from generation to generation. By definition, this is a TRADITION. Do you not understand or accept this fact? The girl got married at the age of 12, either under her own wishes or her parents and her parents consented to it. If this is not Tradition, where in the law books of California can you tell me that a 12 year old is allow to marry?
As for your second point, if you are going to quote me... you should quote all of what I said. What I said was that EVERYONE has some blame in this story, that's what I said. The HUSBAND, the PARENTS, Hmong traditions and Yes, even the WIFE, to some extent... all contributed to this tragic event.
In this USA, and the current state when story took place... A girl under 18 years of age is consider a minor. A minor, by definition, has to obey the commands and wishes of her parents, especially when her life or her health is in danger. To do otherwise, her parents could be jail for child neglect, child endangerment, or even the more serious charge of child abuse.
Just for a second... let me play along with you and your logic. Would I rather call the cops and have her put in a foster home? DAM right I would, if it meant saving her live. And in this case, perhaps maybe it would have saved her life. Somehow, I truly doubt your example was the severity in this case when this girl first got married.
Kids are just that, they are kids... and they will make mistakes. As parents, as adults, as guardians... it is up to us to steer them in the right direction, it is our responsibility to do the right thing, even when they don't see it.
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Perhaps I am not understanding your definition of Tradition here... maybe you can explain it to us.
Google translates "Tradition" as "the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation"...and this definition is generally the widely accepted meaning.
Hmong people have allowed 12 year older or younger to marry for as long as we can remember. It has been passed from generation to generation. By definition, this is a TRADITION. Do you not understand or accept this fact? The girl got married at the age of 12, either under her own wishes or her parents and her parents consented to it. If this is not Tradition, where in the law books of California can you tell me that a 12 year old is allow to marry?
As for your second point, if you are going to quote me... you should quote all of what I said. What I said was that EVERYONE has some blame in this story, that's what I said. The HUSBAND, the PARENTS, Hmong traditions and Yes, even the WIFE, to some extent... all contributed to this tragic event.
In this USA, and the current state when story took place... A girl under 18 years of age is consider a minor. A minor, by definition, has to obey the commands and wishes of her parents, especially when her life or her health is in danger. To do otherwise, her parents could be jail for child neglect, child endangerment, or even the more serious charge of child abuse.
Just for a second... let me play along with you and your logic. Would I rather call the cops and have her put in a foster home? DAM right I would, if it meant saving her live. And in this case, perhaps maybe it would have saved her life. Somehow, I truly doubt your example was the severity in this case when this girl first got married.
Kids are just that, they are kids... and they will make mistakes. As parents, as adults, as guardians... it is up to us to steer them in the right direction, it is our responsibility to do the right thing, even when they don't see it.
You sir are well deserving of an applaud. I like the way you explain things. Well done. O0
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_laws_in_the_United_States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_laws_in_the_United_States)
For those who are using Hmong tradition to marry young children off, you know who you are out there and I hope you don't get caught. Because if you do, boy oh boy, some of the scariest charges could be: Child exploitation, child sexual abuse, child maltreatment, and child endangerment. Nobody wants those charges on their records.
See a quote from the above link regarding to a minor's inability to consent.
Minors' inability to consent[edit]
Between adults, most sexual activity does not constitute a criminal offense, unless one of the adults does not consent to the activity. In contrast, minors are unable to give consent under the law. Indeed, the term "minor" refers to a person who has not yet reached majority, the age at which one may give consent in any legal matter (for example, a minor cannot make a valid contract).[7] However, actual laws and the maximum ages that constitute breach of law vary by state. A person engaging in sexual activity with a minor below these proscribed ages (16–18), regardless of that minor's seeming "consent" or compliance, commits an offense (terminology varies). In most states, much more sever offenses and/or sentences exist for cases with young children, approximately under 12–13.
Many states[8] include in their penal codes a "Romeo and Juliet" exception for cases where sexual activity occurs between a young adult and a minor whose ages are within a few years of each other.[9] This exception typically bars charging the young adult with a sex offense, if the young adult did not use force or coercion on the minor and the minor is a teenager.[10]
And please do not tell me you can tell a child wants to be married at 12 years old because she was mature for her age. That is something only a pedophile would say.
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Murder-suicides are not unique to Hmong people, so please don't try too hard to say it's our "tradition" that causes this to occur. There are plenty of factors that help create an environment where domestic violence will thrive but ultimately, the most important factor is the violent person him/herself. Secondly, you cannot take culture out of the equation and try to say the law is the law. America's own history of child brides and the evolution of laws to protect "minors," from consenting to sexual activity came to be because people began to learn that there was such a thing as the adolescent years. Now, not too long ago it was perfectly legal for a 7 year old to consent to sex in the State of Delaware. Last that I know, MN also allows 16 yr olds to marry each other as well.
Although child brides are part of our history, many of us have learned to depart from that practice because we acquired the info/knowledge that wasn't provided nor available to our parents: that a child's maturity isn't fully develope as soon as the child hits puberty. To look back with such a stupid mindset and look down upon your own people just because you think your education actually did you some good only shows that you really didn't learn anything at all!
You don't need to quote the laws of this country, you know, the laws that the dominant culture created. We know it's illegal.
Most states don't recognize Hmong marriages... So if the marriage isn't recognized, what laws are broken here? The only thing you can probably go after the family with is to turn that child into a Juvie or ward of the state. Yet, if you work in the child's protection field, you'll know the preference there is to educate and keep the child in the home.
What I want to know is if you can explain to me who and what's to blame when a white America kills his white spouse/SO in the same murder-suicide act. Please tell me which tradition you'll like to blame for this since it wasn't too long ago that a murder-suicide like this was in the news.
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Murder-suicides are not unique to Hmong people, so please don't try too hard to say it's our "tradition" that causes this to occur. There are plenty of factors that help create an environment where domestic violence will thrive but ultimately, the most important factor is the violent person him/herself. Secondly, you cannot take culture out of the equation and try to say the law is the law. America's own history of child brides and the evolution of laws to protect "minors," from consenting to sexual activity came to be because people began to learn that there was such a thing as the adolescent years. Now, not too long ago it was perfectly legal for a 7 year old to consent to sex in the State of Delaware. Last that I know, MN also allows 16 yr olds to marry each other as well.
Although child brides are part of our history, many of us have learned to depart from that practice because we acquired the info/knowledge that wasn't provided nor available to our parents: that a child's maturity isn't fully develope as soon as the child hits puberty. To look back with such a stupid mindset and look down upon your own people just because you think your education actually did you some good only shows that you really didn't learn anything at all!
You don't need to quote the laws of this country, you know, the laws that the dominant culture created. We know it's illegal.
Most states don't recognize Hmong marriages... So if the marriage isn't recognized, what laws are broken here? The only thing you can probably go after the family with is to turn that child into a Juvie or ward of the state. Yet, if you work in the child's protection field, you'll know the preference there is to educate and keep the child in the home.
What I want to know is if you can explain to me who and what's to blame when a white America kills his white spouse/SO in the same murder-suicide act. Please tell me which tradition you'll like to blame for this since it wasn't too long ago that a murder-suicide like this was in the news.
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Did you not read the entire thing or can we just summarize that you like to cherry pick?
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Did you not read the entire thing or can we just summarize that you like to cherry pick?
I'm working on my photobucket as well as reading Ph concurrently. Don't mind me if I'm too busy to respond to you, but it would be interesting to read that article you reference about a 7 year old who was consented to have sex in the State of Delaware. I doubt it was true.
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Well, just in case, Ph people actually believe about that reference point about the 7 year old who was consented to have sex in the state of Delaware, I googled it and nada. I could not find any supported article. Zippo. Zilch. Zero. You would think that if such remark was true, it would have been a hot case on the news non-stopped, right? Now, if that reference point isn't proven truthful, everything sounds more like a lie, right?
How can one argue with a lie, except with facts!
Since I almost got bamboozled into believe in something that sounds too good to be true, the only thing that I can find is the age of consent: Believe in whatever you want, a fact is a fact. Don't make up lies. That is just so pathetic!
http://www.ageofconsent.us/ (http://www.ageofconsent.us/)
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::)
Ummm, lacking in comprehension skills much?
If someone says, "history," and "evolution," you should Google the history of the age of consent laws in the United States. And no, I'm not going to link it because it would actually be more beneficial for you to read around. No where did I say there was actually a seven yr old in Delaware who made the press.
I didn't think you would be able to articulate a reasonable response anyway, so run off to the General Discussion area and whine, ok? You are acting like you were born yesterday.
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::)
Ummm, lacking in comprehension skills much?
If someone says, "history," and "evolution," you should Google the history of the age of consent laws in the United States. And no, I'm not going to link it because it would actually be more beneficial for you to read around. No where did I say there was actually a seven yr old in Delaware who made the press.
I didn't think you would be able to articulate a reasonable response anyway, so run off to the General Discussion area and whine, ok? You are acting like you were born yesterday.
Its my lunch time.
So, I see that you are unable to provide evidence of your reference point for the 7 year old case that happened "not too long ago". It appears that you are projecting unproven speculations, after speculations. No wonder you speak with much lies. You lack much credibility! Period. You are using a case scenario to support the practice of child bride in this country where you know it is illegal. People like you should be punished. I hope you don't work in child social service, because you don't care for the welfare of kids under 18 years old.
I know I don't support child bride and I stand against it. You obviously have a problem if you think we are living in the past during the year of 2015.
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Its my lunch time.
So, I see that you are unable to provide evidence of your reference point for the 7 year old case that happened "not too long ago". It appears that you are projecting unproven speculations, after speculations. No wonder you speak with much lies. You lack much credibility! Period. You are using a case scenario to support the practice of child bride in this country where you know it is illegal. People like you should be punished. I hope you don't work in child social service, because you don't care for the welfare of kids under 18 years old.
I know I don't support child bride and I stand against it. You obviously have a problem if you think we are living in the past during the year of 2015.
You have a very pathetic way of distorting things.
Sydney, -1
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You have a very pathetic way of distorting things.
Sydney, -1
You shouldn't have made false claim where you can't back it up. Do you even know how flawed you sound?
If a child/minor does not have the ability to consent to sex or marriage, why would you stated that a 7 year old consented to sex in the state of Delaware? That point of reference gave you away. You made yourself look pathetic, if not a liar.
By the way, the consenting age in Delaware is 18.
I have been working in the human service field for many years. I am very passionate about family stability and child welfare. If I lack something, I'm more than happy to learn. If you have something worth discussing, please do share in a more reasonable fashion. Just don't come across as a show off with mouthful of lies.
What I did learn through all these argument is that maybe I will let people shoot themselves in the foot if they so want to keep up with certain corruptions. I have put in enough good faith and effort to try to reason with people.
You have a good day too. :D
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There is no discussion to end the discussion...w hen the participants can't even be courteous enough to share opinions and maintain a healthy discussion.
The petty way of saying: prove it, prove this, prove that...referen ce this, reference that...that's your problem, it's not my problem, etc.,..
Petty personal attacks: do I need to list these???? Know the moment when someone is out of content or take things out of context...Not everyone has a stuck up opinion. Stop it with the you this, you that accusations.
So instead of just looking at the news report and questioning the accuracy of those reports...aski ng for a dissection, discussion, of whatnot customs and traditions in good faith with wonderful facts that opposes each other: 18 yrs old voting rights, emancipated minor, age of consent law...how wonderful... yeah end of discussion.
Now since it's a mockery... This farce of a show that belittles each other. There's nothing to further discuss.
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VillainousHero, I get that your trying to make a point here about not getting into petty arguments with other members but, I disagree on stopping the "discussion" just because personal remarks will get thrown around. This is actually a very healthy discussion to have with Hmong people who see their kind through whitewashed eyes. The personal attacks, prove this, prove that and failure to respond to the questions that are posed are all just defense mechansims. I don't take things personal but if my words are misread/interpreted and twisted around, I don't have any qualms about pointing out such error either.
You shouldn't have made false claim where you can't back it up. Do you even know how flawed you sound?
If a child/minor does not have the ability to consent to sex or marriage, why would you stated that a 7 year old consented to sex in the state of Delaware? That point of reference gave you away. You made yourself look pathetic, if not a liar.
By the way, the consenting age in Delaware is 18.
I have been working in the human service field for many years. I am very passionate about family stability and child welfare. If I lack something, I'm more than happy to learn. If you have something worth discussing, please do share in a more reasonable fashion. Just don't come across as a show off with mouthful of lies.
What I did learn through all these argument is that maybe I will let people shoot themselves in the foot if they so want to keep up with certain corruptions. I have put in enough good faith and effort to try to reason with people.
You have a good day too. :D
My exact words were:
America's own history of child brides and the evolution of laws to protect "minors," from consenting to sexual activity came to be because people began to learn that there was such a thing as the adolescent years. Now, not too long ago it was perfectly legal for a 7 year old to consent to sex in the State of Delaware.
A liar. A show off. ;D I haven't even began to personally insult you yet. If my points made it appear as though I'm a show off, it's because you realize there's a lot of things you're missing in drawing your conclusion and the relevance of your claim in regards to this issue. I've already said it before, and I say it in simplier terms: Your rants up to this point are irrelevant. There is a better topic for you to rely your passionate rants. If you scroll a few posts down in the news section, you will find it.
If the victim was underage when she died, you can hold her parents responsible but she was a fully grown adult who was capable of making life decisions on her own, and whatever happened b/w and her estranged husband are issues beyond your understanding; issues that I have no interest speculating about.
You said that you work in the human services field so to me, that is more reason to believe that you need to be more cautious about pitting blame against an entire group of people because of ONE individual's action. Is it a norm in Hmong American society to kill our spouses or something? It's not. This event was a tragedy but definitely nothing that should represent us. The other tragedy that always seem to follow suit when rare events like these occur in the Hmong community is the ignorant cultural witch hunting you imbeciles do. Through your white washed eyes, you forget that white American have a culture too, but do you go blaming some tradition for the exact act? DO YOU?
Lastly, you seem to think everyone who finds fault in your opinion is a child bride supporter. What a joke.
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LOL...I'm probably more whitewashed then anyone, but I'm not going to get petty with a few words and take them out of context. If one wants to discuss with professionalis m and experience then treat others to that same professionalis m and value their experience as well. We are all applying it to what little information upon news release and questioning the validity of such information. The media portrayal is down right insulting, but that a news ringer that gets attention. Maybe I was too naïve to think that we were all going to learn from each other's POV's, but then the personal stuff comes out like arrogant teenage bantering.
I don't know where I'm going with this anymore...just bores me now.
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LOL...I'm probably more whitewashed then anyone, but I'm not going to get petty with a few words and take them out of context. If one wants to discuss with professionalis m and experience then treat others to that same professionalis m and value their experience as well. We are all applying it to what little information upon news release and questioning the validity of such information. The media portrayal is down right insulting, but that a news ringer that gets attention. Maybe I was too naïve to think that we were all going to learn from each other's POV's, but then the personal stuff comes out like arrogant teenage bantering.
I don't know where I'm going with this anymore...just bores me now.
LOL, it's ok, VillainousHero . I didn't want to say much either but come on now. Five pages later and you still can't give your viewers a valid argument or even an explanation about how eliminating the child bride practice would solve murder-suicides and domestic abuse in the Hmong community. ;D
You're correct about the media portrayal part. Something like this happens and it's a sudden culture clash, like OUR culture is the reason he killed his wife? LOL. Why is it that some people are so quick to find something wrong with the Hmong culture when shit like this happens? If you google non-Hmong murder suicides that occurred this month, these news outlets don't even mention the word, "culture." Yet, the majority of domestic murder-suicides in the United States, a country that has laws to protect children and child brides, are committed by white men. (see the National Criminal Justice Reference Service for my source :D)
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Stuff like this happens because Hmong women, for a lack of a better word -- they are stupid, they don't know who their family is. The moment you decide to ditch your family for this thing you call your RIGHT, and be white, it's when you lose. This seems to be the logic of most women these days. It doesn't even have to be force marriage at a young age, even college educated women, you'll still be seeing the same result.
Is it just Hmong parents that are forcing their kids to get married at a young age? Perhaps, and it's probably the only choice they had. Don't think it's just Hmong parents that are troubled, but other parents are also at a loss too if they found out that their son/daughter is sexually active, gay, or just simply out of control. They would go with whatever option that looks good for their family and the other family. Force marriage or not, is that any better than having a sexually active teen hooking up with people and sneaking in the middle of the night? Potentially getting pregnant, exposing to/passing on HIV/AIDs, and etc onto others? Do Hmong women stand a chance of having a bright future, a family of their own having been labeled whore once? Every Hmong parent can't simply yield and let this imperfect law of the land to dictate. It's really a tough call...
And I agree. Stuff that happened decades ago, is pointless to bring up. If it matters, both family involved outta be prosecuted. No winners but bunch of losers. American justice for you? Think again stupid Hmong people...
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does anyone know why it is so hard to get message across that ....NO IT IS NOT RIGHT TO ARRANGE ANY MARRIAGE BETWEEN A GIRL AGE 12 AND AND A MAN AGE 21......
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does anyone know why it is so hard to get message across that ....NO IT IS NOT RIGHT TO ARRANGE ANY MARRIAGE BETWEEN A GIRL AGE 12 AND AND A MAN AGE 21......
Primitive mentality. Some can learn to adapt, move forward, and progress...som e, not so much...
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Once you hit puberty, you can basically start to use it. :-*
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Why do people choose to take away someone's childhood and then kill them in the end? Lyn doesn't understand why people choose death when it comes to love when they still had a lot to improve in life. Lyn wish the best to all the children left behind. O0