PebHmong Discussion Forum
Life & Living => Faith & Beliefs => Topic started by: hmgROCK on April 25, 2016, 02:07:23 PM
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like buddha, muslim, mythology, baptism, jews, latter day saint, etcc....?
are they're all wrong?
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Religion is a choice, if you believe in it, it will up lift you and guide you through life. No religion is a wrong religion in the eyes of a believer. You can argue until you are blue in the face, a true believer will care less of your thoughts and opinions but it doesn't necessarily means they will degrade you or your religion. No self respect individual will do that.
Perhaps an activist would though :D
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freedom of religion means freedom to pick and choose your religion to your liking.
Just don't violate my rights not to have a religion. O0
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Religion is a choice, if you believe in it, it will up lift you and guide you through life. No religion is a wrong religion in the eyes of a believer. You can argue until you are blue in the face, a true believer will care less of your thoughts and opinions but it doesn't necessarily means they will degrade you or your religion. No self respect individual will do that.
Perhaps an activist would though :D
So is it wrong for a person to degrade you or your religion if his/her religion demand them to do it?
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I can't think of established religions that says it's okay to degrade people. And that doesn't include people who misread/misinterpret what they are being taught.
But, is it wrong?
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1099 - The Roman Catholic Army kill over 70k Muslims.
And if you are thinking that this is too long ago, then try...
1941 – 1945 The Roman Catholic Ustashi kill 1 million Serbians.
And if you are thinking that these examples do not count because they fall under "misread" or "misinterpretat ion," then also consider that the Pope also has Papal Infallibility.
The list of oppression really goes on and on...
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So is it wrong for a person to degrade you or your religion if his/her religion demand them to do it?
Degrading a religion if your religion demands it, hmm... in a communist perspective this scenario would exist, but I am sure people in their right mind would not do it openly.
If your religion calls you out to degrade other religions, I would definitely say it is morally wrong but if you believe it will provoke your faith by all means. Perhaps in their eyes, they are trying to finding solitude and cause to still believe.
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1099 - The Roman Catholic Army kill over 70k Muslims.
And if you are thinking that this is too long ago, then try...
1941 – 1945 The Roman Catholic Ustashi kill 1 million Serbians.
And if you are thinking that these examples do not count because they fall under "misread" or "misinterpretat ion," then also consider that the Pope also has Papal Infallibility.
The list of oppression really goes on and on...
To say that Religion was responsible in 1099 is just being ignorant. Who led the the primary army that captured Jerusalem? It was Hugh I, he was a younger son and did not have the throne of France. What else could a man do but to go out and try to establish his own Kingdom. Raymond IV, Count of Toulouse, established the County of Tripoli in what is now Lebanon. Many of the leaders of the First Crusade were not established in their own countries. They had ambitions of their own, hence they were part of the First Crusade.
It is no more than a land grab by the lords of Europe , using Religion as the primary catalyst. The only "misread" or "misinterpretat ion" is by you.
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With so many religion
How do you know which one is right or wrong?
Are they all right?
Are they All wrong?
Do we just go with the favorite
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Religion/Lifestyle/Etc.
Your boundaries are set by yourself.
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1099 - The Roman Catholic Army kill over 70k Muslims.
And if you are thinking that this is too long ago, then try...
1941 – 1945 The Roman Catholic Ustashi kill 1 million Serbians.
And if you are thinking that these examples do not count because they fall under "misread" or "misinterpretat ion," then also consider that the Pope also has Papal Infallibility.
The list of oppression really goes on and on...
This is an attack on one religion. You pretty much pulled the Catholic religion out for its crimes yet you forget that the Catholic people were nearly wiped out in 300 by the Roman Empire.
I am not standing up for the Catholic religion. They have done their wrongs. Every religion has. So really, it's not the religion that does these horrible things. It's the people who use religion for their own purposes and power and every religion will have people like that.
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I believe King James I and Henry VIII killed a ton of Catholics when they were bringing up the Protestant faith. Of course, when Henry's daughter, Mary became Queen, she killed a ton of Protestants. I read that it was one of the bloodiest cleansing years in England. Then when Mary died, her half sister, Elizabeth was next in line, Queen Elizabeth was Protestant and I'm sure she got rid of a lot of Catholics. Elizabeth was one of the longest reigning queens so it is only natural that there is a large Protestant community in the UK.
FYI: Queen Elizabeth is the daughter of Anne Boleyn. Anne was the wife whom Henry converted from Catholic to Protestant for because the Catholic church would not annul his marriage to his first wife, Queen Catherine. Of course, later on, Anne was beheaded when she was found guilty of cheating.
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I believe King James I and Henry VIII killed a ton of Catholics when they were bringing up the Protestant faith. Of course, when Henry's daughter, Mary became Queen, she killed a ton of Protestants. I read that it was one of the bloodiest cleansing years in England. Then when Mary died, her half sister, Elizabeth was next in line, Queen Elizabeth was Protestant and I'm sure she got rid of a lot of Catholics. Elizabeth was one of the longest reigning queens so it is only natural that there is a large Protestant community in the UK.
FYI: Queen Elizabeth is the daughter of Anne Boleyn. Anne was the wife whom Henry converted from Catholic to Protestant for because the Catholic church would not annul his marriage to his first wife, Queen Catherine. Of course, later on, Anne was beheaded when she was found guilty of cheating.
With so many religion
How do you know which one is right or wrong?
Are they all right?
Are they All wrong?
Do we just go with the favorite
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But lets not stop at religion between Catholics, Muslims, and Protestants trying to gain power over the other.
We see it in other areas that may or maybe not be religion related but it is power related. For instance the Hmong people lost all of their culture to China's Emperors. A whole culture wiped out. Was it religion? Maybe. Maybe not. But definitely power.
Japan almost had Korea until WWII when Russia and China stepped in and then led to Korea splitting into North and South. Lots of Korean-Japanese died just because they owned land that the Japanese had originally claimed then released. Lots of South Koreans died too, fighting, and some believed North would be better than South only to learn once they moved into North territory that they would end up doing hard labor for the rest of their lives and never have the opportunity to move up...go to college, make more money, join the military, etc.
And the Jews. It's religion related but it was vicious and cruel and so many innocents died just for their faith.
And then you think about your own country, the USA. The Civil War killed more US soldiers in one war than international wars.
It's really good to know that we are free to believe what we want to believe without fear that we would have to die for it. And when I say believe, I mean non-believers as well because that is in essence a belief something.
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With so many religion
How do you know which one is right or wrong?
Are they all right?
Are they All wrong?
Do we just go with the favorite
It's like everything else. Why don't you like the same car I like? Is it wrong to like one kind over the other? Do we just go with our favorite? Or do we find one that fits our lifestyle? If a car doesn't matter to you and you can drive anything as long as it takes you from A to B then religion is the same. If it doesn't benefit you in anyway, then it doesn't matter if you don't believe or if you kind of believe or believe sometimes and other times don't. It doesn't matter. But for some, it matters because like a car, some people will only buy one brand because they trust in it. Religion is similar. It has helped them in their struggles. It has helped them deal with hard and difficult times. It has helped them see the good in themselves and in others.
I personally struggle with believing that I am a good person and deserving of a good life because I was brought up very negatively. If you are constantly told that you will not get very far in life and that because of how dark your skin is or how not-so-smart you are, or how ugly your teeth are, etc., it leaves a lasting scar. I don't fight that every day like I did as a kid and teenager but once in awhile I will fall into that gloom, and when I pray and read the scriptures, and attend mass, it helps me realize that the world doesn't revolve around me. We all have our struggles and we all need something or someone to believe in to keep going. I feel good when I do good for others and I naturally have a hard time finding that spark where I do good for others. My religion and prayers open my eyes to those things that I have a difficult time finding on my own. I need that strength from God or that energy source and in order to get it, I have to open up myself to it. Otherwise I become this selfish, bland, boring, depressed person that I don't like.
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Also, my faith helps me realize the good life I have now and realize the good life I've always had even when I was poor and even when all those negative things were said to me. Because I've learned that God put me in those paths to make me strong and to give me the opportunity to feel freedom. I don't know why God has chosen some of us (our parents...I think we were all to young or not born) to make it to the US safely back when Vietnam just ended. I mean, I sometimes wonder why my parents were not the ones staying behind or that died by an underground mine. They had a relative who accidentally stepped on one and the blast took his leg off. He had just gotten married and he and his wife couldn't continue going so they hid behind a bush. I asked my Mom if she thought they lived or died and she said....she said...she doesn't think they made it because the Vietcong were right behind them looking in the bushes and everything.
Things like that. And there are more things in life that lead me to believe there has to be something greater.
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But lets not stop at religion between Catholics, Muslims, and Protestants trying to gain power over the other.
We see it in other areas that may or maybe not be religion related but it is power related. For instance the Hmong people lost all of their culture to China's Emperors. A whole culture wiped out. Was it religion? Maybe. Maybe not. But definitely power.
Japan almost had Korea until WWII when Russia and China stepped in and then led to Korea splitting into North and South. Lots of Korean-Japanese died just because they owned land that the Japanese had originally claimed then released. Lots of South Koreans died too, fighting, and some believed North would be better than South only to learn once they moved into North territory that they would end up doing hard labor for the rest of their lives and never have the opportunity to move up...go to college, make more money, join the military, etc.
And the Jews. It's religion related but it was vicious and cruel and so many innocents died just for their faith.
And then you think about your own country, the USA. The Civil War killed more US soldiers in one war than international wars.
It's really good to know that we are free to believe what we want to believe without fear that we would have to die for it. And when I say believe, I mean non-believers as well because that is in essence a belief something.
I drive many cars
They are all good
Trust me.
As long as they don't broke down lol
Now how are you sooo sure 100% your God is the right one?
When there is so many religion out there
Ask yourself that question
Those ISIS fighter. Those are hardcore believer willing to blow them self up
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Also, my faith helps me realize the good life I have now and realize the good life I've always had even when I was poor and even when all those negative things were said to me. Because I've learned that God put me in those paths to make me strong and to give me the opportunity to feel freedom. I don't know why God has chosen some of us (our parents...I think we were all to young or not born) to make it to the US safely back when Vietnam just ended. I mean, I sometimes wonder why my parents were not the ones staying behind or that died by an underground mine. They had a relative who accidentally stepped on one and the blast took his leg off. He had just gotten married and he and his wife couldn't continue going so they hid behind a bush. I asked my Mom if she thought they lived or died and she said....she said...she doesn't think they made it because the Vietcong were right behind them looking in the bushes and everything.
Things like that. And there are more things in life that lead me to believe there has to be something greater.
I think you should go with hindu or Buddha
Those religion will teach you to be a better person
They believe life is a struggle until you reach enlightenment
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And how are you so sure those two will lead you to be a "better person"?
How are you so sure these two are better than others?
I don't
That's why I " think"
Thats I am not a believer
Now why do you think Christian is the truth?
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I drive many cars
They are all good
Trust me.
As long as they don't broke down lol
Now how are you sooo sure 100% your God is the right one?
When there is so many religion out there
Ask yourself that question
Those ISIS fighter. Those are hardcore believer willing to blow them self up
I'm glad your car works for you. THat's how it should be. Go with what you like.
What do you mean is my God 100% the right one? To me, it's the only one so there is no right or wrong. It's like asking, is earth the right one for you? Um, it's the only one.
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I think you should go with hindu or Buddha
Those religion will teach you to be a better person
They believe life is a struggle until you reach enlightenment
I've learned those religions btw and have friend and neighbors who are those religion but they will not fit me, although, I do like some aspects of them. I've grown into my faith and it can't be taken away just like that. Plus, I'm very loyal to my faith. The people that I knew growing up who taught me about God and life and history and stuff about the Catholic faith have a place in my heart that can never be replaced.
And about being a better person. I think you are misunderstandi ng it all. It's not that I need to be taught to be a better person. I am good. That is how God made me. A good person. But because of my struggles, things that I have no control over, I need God to keep me on my path. He has a purpose for me in this lifetime and I want to live it out. Do you see what I'm saying?
And no, I don't believe that life is a struggle until you die and the it becomes all great. I believe life itself is special. You don't have to wait until a certain time to love it. You gotta love it and live now. No way will God give you this wonderful life and withhold it until you die. It's meant to be lived while you are alive and breathing.
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I'm glad your car works for you. THat's how it should be. Go with what you like.
What do you mean is my God 100% the right one? To me, it's the only one so there is no right or wrong. It's like asking, is earth the right one for you? Um, it's the only one.
What about the others God's?
Like Zeus, Horus, Allah, durga, God of Abraha, etc.....???
Are those God fake or real? Since you already pick your god
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1099 - The Roman Catholic Army kill over 70k Muslims.
And if you are thinking that this is too long ago, then try...
1941 – 1945 The Roman Catholic Ustashi kill 1 million Serbians.
And if you are thinking that these examples do not count because they fall under "misread" or "misinterpretat ion," then also consider that the Pope also has Papal Infallibility.
The list of oppression really goes on and on...
Another dumb dumb still in the dark ages. Learn some from the mouth of a crusade historian.
"So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.
Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne’er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders’ expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs."
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-real-history-of-the-crusades (http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-real-history-of-the-crusades)
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What about the others God's?
Like Zeus, Horus, Allah, durga, God of Abraha, etc.....???
Are those God fake or real? Since you already pick your god
I'm not sure if they are fake or real. My guess is at one point they were real but legend has twisted and turned them into magical things.
I think you also misunderstand the "picking." It's more than just one reason to follow a religion. I struggled with religion for a long time but in time, when I most needed God, it was the one I grew up with. The one I was taught to respect and believe in. If I was brought up another religion and had good experience, I may not have been Catholic, and that would have been okay. Even if I was brought up Shaman, I would have followed the Shamam religion and that too would have been okay.
The "picking" is not just because I like it. It's more than that. I grew up in it. My mother was a Catholic nun, the Catholic missionaries were good to my mother. My dad was Shamanism but converted to Catholic because it called to him. I respect my parents, therefore, I followed their faith, whatever it was. As I got older I understood why they followed the faith and thus, I do it too. My mother is an amazing woman and every prayer that she has said, has worked in her favor. She is truly amazing. An angel. Yes, she was hard on me but I try to look at that in a good light. I've become a strong woman because of her. I put up with a lot of !@#$ and went through a lot of hell to get to where I'm at and it's all made me stronger. Yes, I do have my moments of weakness. of failure. of fear. But, I remember the strength of my parents and what helped them and how it has helped me. So I choose Catholic because it ties into everything I ever knew. It's who I am.
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I'm not sure if they are fake or real. My guess is at one point they were real but legend has twisted and turned them into magical things.
I think you also misunderstand the "picking." It's more than just one reason to follow a religion. I struggled with religion for a long time but in time, when I most needed God, it was the one I grew up with. The one I was taught to respect and believe in. If I was brought up another religion and had good experience, I may not have been Catholic, and that would have been okay. Even if I was brought up Shaman, I would have followed the Shamam religion and that too would have been okay.
The "picking" is not just because I like it. It's more than that. I grew up in it. My mother was a Catholic nun, the Catholic missionaries were good to my mother. My dad was Shamanism but converted to Catholic because it called to him. I respect my parents, therefore, I followed their faith, whatever it was. As I got older I understood why they followed the faith and thus, I do it too. My mother is an amazing woman and every prayer that she has said, has worked in her favor. She is truly amazing. An angel. Yes, she was hard on me but I try to look at that in a good light. I've become a strong woman because of her. I put up with a lot of !@#$ and went through a lot of hell to get to where I'm at and it's all made me stronger. Yes, I do have my moments of weakness. of failure. of fear. But, I remember the strength of my parents and what helped them and how it has helped me. So I choose Catholic because it ties into everything I ever knew. It's who I am.
You know that in the movies, freddy kruger's mom is also a nun?
Bless you child for you are the anti christ. :2funny:
I'm just joking. In history, there are retired priest who went and got married. Retired husband went to become priest and I think a few popes falls into such category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
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I'm not sure if they are fake or real. My guess is at one point they were real but legend has twisted and turned them into magical things.
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There are many religion out there.
There is no way to tell which is real
Since there so many religion and like almost each of those religion has a God/goddess
There is no way to tell the fake from the real.
They can all be fake or real.
Who knows
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*yawns* Since you want to talk about "ignorance," let's do it...
1. The First Crusade was ordered by Pope Urban II.
2. Because the Pope has Papal Infallibility, then his commands are religious commands. Thus, all those people you listed were following a religious command. Maybe they had their own personal agendas, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire crusade was ordered by the pope.
What was that about being ignorant? :2funny:
To say that Religion was responsible in 1099 is just being ignorant. Who led the the primary army that captured Jerusalem? It was Hugh I, he was a younger son and did not have the throne of France. What else could a man do but to go out and try to establish his own Kingdom. Raymond IV, Count of Toulouse, established the County of Tripoli in what is now Lebanon. Many of the leaders of the First Crusade were not established in their own countries. They had ambitions of their own, hence they were part of the First Crusade.
It is no more than a land grab by the lords of Europe , using Religion as the primary catalyst. The only "misread" or "misinterpretat ion" is by you.
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*yawns*
It's not an attack, it's simply stating facts. At no point did I say one religion (or lack thereof) is better than another.
This is an attack on one religion. You pretty much pulled the Catholic religion out for its crimes yet you forget that the Catholic people were nearly wiped out in 300 by the Roman Empire.
I am not standing up for the Catholic religion. They have done their wrongs. Every religion has. So really, it's not the religion that does these horrible things. It's the people who use religion for their own purposes and power and every religion will have people like that.
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WTH? Open up a history book. The pope ordered the First Crusade, and the pope has papal infallibility.
You must think name-calling and insults make a good argument if you think that you couldn't have said it any better. Just give it more than a 2 second thought, and you would realize that this guy's comment makes no sense. Even if all those soldiers killed all those people all by themselves, they were there by the pope's orders. And do you really think the pope thought he could have an entire crusade without killing anyone?
Think of it this way, why can a mob boss be found guilty of crimes that he himself did not actually commit? It's because of racketeering. The mob boss created the order. Similarly, the pope, with papal infallibility, created the order. Unlike the mob boss, the pope actually represents the religion.
So maybe you can't write it any better, but that doesn't make it right.
Two more emoticons. :2funny: :2funny:
Said it better than I ever could. Catholics or atleast followers of Catholicism may have been responsible, but the religion itself in it's original context may have been very different.
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Before we figure out who is the dumb one, please tell us which team was younger in Super Bowl 50? If you can't get your information correct, why do you think your analysis is correct?
Two more emoticons for you. :2funny: :2funny:
Another dumb dumb still in the dark ages. Learn some from the mouth of a crusade historian.
"So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.
Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne’er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders’ expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs."
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-real-history-of-the-crusades (http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-real-history-of-the-crusades)
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For you people who use the argument, "But my people were oppressed.."
Guess what? That does not give you the right to oppress others. If anything, it is supposed to give you the empathy to NOT oppress others. Pointing out how your people have been historically oppressed by others does not give you the right to oppress them. It makes no sense. And if you are Christian, it really makes no sense given what Jesus preached.
Christians were fed to the lions hundreds of years ago. Does that give Christians the right to oppress others now? No.
If anything, all your complaining about how people have mistreated you only supports hmgrock that religion is bad, or at least is ambiguous.
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Before we figure out who is the dumb one, please tell us which team was younger in Super Bowl 50? If you can't get your information correct, why do you think your analysis is correct?
Two more emoticons for you. :2funny: :2funny:
Now which dumb dumb says that the pope urban calls for the first crusade? Check your facts because historians will say that the first crusade was a call for support by the Byzantine emperor.
Hey dumb dumb. You blame on the chicken or the egg? :2funny:
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*yawns*
1. Did the pope call for a "recapture" of the "holy lands" or not?
2. Does the pope have papal infallibility or not?
3. Is this the ONLY example that can be used to show how the Catholic church, through papal infallibility, has degraded people throughout history? Even if you don't want to count this one, there is a long list. Heck, I originally listed TWO, you people are only focused on one. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt on THIS one, there is still the OTHER one....and many more that I didn't bother to list.
What was that about dumb dumb? :2funny: :2funny:
Now which dumb dumb says that the pope urban calls for the first crusade? Check your facts because historians will say that the first crusade was a call for support by the Byzantine emperor.
Hey dumb dumb. You blame on the chicken or the egg? :2funny:
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*yawns*
1. Did the pope call for a "recapture" of the "holy lands" or not?
2. Does the pope have papal infallibility or not?
3. Is this the ONLY example that can be used to show how the Catholic church, through papal infallibility, has degraded people throughout history? Even if you don't want to count this one, there is a long list. Heck, I originally listed TWO, you people are only focused on one. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt on THIS one, there is still the OTHER one....and many more that I didn't bother to list.
What was that about dumb dumb? :2funny: :2funny:
So out of the blue, pope urban calls for a religious war?
So it is his idea and he gets all the credit? Learn your history to be dumb less. It was a military campaign in response to an aid by order of the Byzantine emperor.
Yawns :2funny:
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What about the other religion?
Are they fake?
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*yawns* Just answer the questions. It's not that hard.
1. Did the pope call for a "recapture" of the "holy lands" or not?
2. Does the pope have papal infallibility or not?
3. Is this the ONLY example that can be used to show how the Catholic church, through papal infallibility, has degraded people throughout history? Even if you don't want to count this one, there is a long list. Heck, I originally listed TWO, you people are only focused on one. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt on THIS one, there is still the OTHER one....and many more that I didn't bother to list.
So out of the blue, pope urban calls for a religious war?
So it is his idea and he gets all the credit? Learn your history to be dumb less. It was a military campaign in response to an aid by order of the Byzantine emperor.
Yawns :2funny:
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*yawns*
It's not an attack, it's simply stating facts. At no point did I say one religion (or lack thereof) is better than another.
You didn't share your "facts" about other religions so of course it was an attack. But it's okay because you come across like you don't like certain religions so no point in making you see things clearer.
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There are many religion out there.
There is no way to tell which is real
Since there so many religion and like almost each of those religion has a God/goddess
There is no way to tell the fake from the real.
They can all be fake or real.
Who knows
Exactly. Thus, no worries which ones are fake or not. It's no one's business. I mean, even Athiests, you can't know if it's real or not. You could be a non-believer and when you die, see God and Jesus, etc. and think !@#$ it's real. Or you could be a crazy believer and die and there's nothing. Nada. So yeah, what's the big deal.
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*yawns* Just answer the questions. It's not that hard.
1. Did the pope call for a "recapture" of the "holy lands" or not?
2. Does the pope have papal infallibility or not?
3. Is this the ONLY example that can be used to show how the Catholic church, through papal infallibility, has degraded people throughout history? Even if you don't want to count this one, there is a long list. Heck, I originally listed TWO, you people are only focused on one. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt on THIS one, there is still the OTHER one....and many more that I didn't bother to list.
Just answer my question, it is not hard. Who is the dumb dumb that says that the pope calls for the first crusade like it is his own project to do so? It was not his project to begin with. You and the rest of your ill informed kind needs re education. It is not hard or you can always learn something from me. If you call me a dummy, you should and could always get schooling from a dummy. :2funny:
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*yawns* Since you want to talk about "ignorance," let's do it...
1. The First Crusade was ordered by Pope Urban II.
2. Because the Pope has Papal Infallibility, then his commands are religious commands. Thus, all those people you listed were following a religious command. Maybe they had their own personal agendas, but that doesn't change the fact that the entire crusade was ordered by the pope.
What was that about being ignorant? :2funny:
Please come down from your high horse with this "yawn". Get in with reality and stop living in your facade. You make a good point about the Pope being Infallibility and his command was a religious command. However, based on your reasoning, there were not more than 60,000 Christians in all of European Christendom. That was roughly the size of the first true Crusader army. 60,000 thousand.... out of millions of Christians.... .let that sink in.
Now you still think men were moved by a Papal command or their own ambitions?
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Please come down from your high horse with this "yawn". Get in with reality and stop living in your facade. You make a good point about the Pope being Infallibility and his command was a religious command. However, based on your reasoning, there were not more than 60,000 Christians in all of European Christendom. That was roughly the size of the first true Crusader army. 60,000 thousand.... out of millions of Christians.... .let that sink in.
Now you still think men were moved by a Papal command or their own ambitions?
His command is not a religious command. A religious command is finding something in the bible and say that god wants you to kill all atheist :2funny:
His command was seeking volunteers to aid a cause that was not his initial idea in the first place. A command of mandatory is not the same as a command where there is a proposition like do this and your sins will be forgiven.
Didn't know the pope has his own organized army like how every nations have theirs. The volunteers during the 1st crusades were common people of the fields.
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*yawns*
3. Is this the ONLY example that can be used to show how the Catholic church, through papal infallibility, has degraded people throughout history? Even if you don't want to count this one, there is a long list. Heck, I originally listed TWO, you people are only focused on one. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt on THIS one, there is still the OTHER one....and many more that I didn't bother to list.
Once again, your using minor details to fit your agenda. The Utashi were made of Nationalists, Facists and Catholics. Aren't you painting a broad brush here?
This broad stroke is the same as saying that if a Hmong person killed a Muslim out of hate and that Hmong person also happens to believe in Animism, than all people who practice Animism are at fault and share the same hate sentimentality towards Muslims. Yeah right...
Please bring up all those other examples, there are so many many out there. The fact of the matter is, religion doesn't factor into the actions of men. Men have freedom of choice, and they are responsible for their own actions.
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His command is not a religious command. A religious command is finding something in the bible and say that god wants you to kill all atheist :2funny:
His command was seeking volunteers to aid a cause that was not his initial idea in the first place. A command of mandatory is not the same as a command where there is a proposition like do this and your sins will be forgiven.
Didn't know the pope has his own organized army like how every nations have theirs. The volunteers during the 1st crusades were common people of the fields.
You got me mixed, I NEVER said it was a command. I simply retorted back to someone else, on how ludicrous that statement was.
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You got me mixed, I NEVER said it was a command. I simply retorted back to someone else, on how ludicrous that statement was.
I am talking to you about the ludicrous things he said. I am talking to all that agrees to such commands or there lack off.
Politically correctness is what it is called. Free education for those that do not yet know like dude.
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*yawns*
Someone stated that there was an established religion that does not degrade people. I don't need to list every example from every religion. I only need one example from one religion to simply prove his statement false.
If any one of us comes across as not liking other religions, it is you. I have always been a proponent of freedom of religion. Where did I ever say that one religion (or lack thereof) is better or worse?
You didn't share your "facts" about other religions so of course it was an attack. But it's okay because you come across like you don't like certain religions so no point in making you see things clearer.
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*yawns*
You asked, "So out of the blue, pope urban calls for a religious war? " It doesn't matter. But for the sake of debate, let's give your argument it's best case. Let's say that he was influenced. The result is still that he called it.
You asked, "You blame on the chicken or the egg?" Well, this question makes no sense.
You wrote, " If you call me a dummy, you should and could always get schooling from a dummy." No one called you a dummy. It's all in your own head.
Now let's see you dance around the issue and questions. :2funny:
Just answer my question, it is not hard. Who is the dumb dumb that says that the pope calls for the first crusade like it is his own project to do so? It was not his project to begin with. You and the rest of your ill informed kind needs re education. It is not hard or you can always learn something from me. If you call me a dummy, you should and could always get schooling from a dummy. :2funny:
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You don't like me yawning? Would you prefer I call you ignorant? That's what you do, right? :2funny:
You admit, "You make a good point about the Pope being Infallibility and his command was a religious command."
Now, it doesn't matter what other people do. Re-read the issue. Someone stated that there was not an established religion that does not degrade others. Yet, here we have an example.
And to further destroy any hope you have in winning this debate, look at the Galileo affair. This was clearly a degradation of a person by the pope, who had Papal Infallibility, and who personally had a hand in the affair. The list of examples go on and on. Even if I concede the First Crusade as an example, there are many many many more examples. Thus, that is why I yawn.
Please come down from your high horse with this "yawn". Get in with reality and stop living in your facade. You make a good point about the Pope being Infallibility and his command was a religious command. However, based on your reasoning, there were not more than 60,000 Christians in all of European Christendom. That was roughly the size of the first true Crusader army. 60,000 thousand.... out of millions of Christians.... .let that sink in.
Now you still think men were moved by a Papal command or their own ambitions?
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*yawns*
What agenda do I have? Let's see which one of us is making huge assumptions.
You already admitted I am right.
Let's look at your Hmong vs. Muslim example. If Hmong Animism had a Hmong Animism Pope who had Religious Infallibility, and if that person said to cleanse the world of Muslims, then yes, Hmong Animism degrades Muslims. However, that is not the case. But, that is the case with Catholicism.
You are trying to argue people, but I am arguing theology. Papal decrees are religious, and popes have decreed some controversial things throughout history.
Once again, your using minor details to fit your agenda. The Utashi were made of Nationalists, Facists and Catholics. Aren't you painting a broad brush here?
This broad stroke is the same as saying that if a Hmong person killed a Muslim out of hate and that Hmong person also happens to believe in Animism, than all people who practice Animism are at fault and share the same hate sentimentality towards Muslims. Yeah right...
Please bring up all those other examples, there are so many many out there. The fact of the matter is, religion doesn't factor into the actions of men. Men have freedom of choice, and they are responsible for their own actions.
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The funniest thing about all of this is that Duma and flyin15sec, who are both arguing against me and name-calling me, are also disagreeing with each other. Guess what, that proves hmgrock right. All of this is ambiguous.
Dummy. Ignorant. :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
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Let's just illustrate the argument.
Someone wrote, "I can't think of established religions that says it's okay to degrade people. And that doesn't include people who misread/misinterpret what they are being taught."
Papal decrees are religious because of Papal Infallibility. True.
The Pope decreed that Galileo should stop his research or face harsher treatment. True.
Can this be viewed as some kind of degradation? Yes.
If this can be viewed as some kind of degradation, and if the Pope has Papal Infallibility, then this is an example of an established religion degrading a person.
And this is just one example. Of course, the church did apologize a few hundred years later, but come on....
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The funniest thing about all of this is that Duma and flyin15sec, who are both arguing against me and name-calling me, are also disagreeing with each other. Guess what, that proves hmgrock right. All of this is ambiguous.
Dummy. Ignorant. :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
Lol
Those two will tell you it is wrong to eat pork
Than go and eat baby back ribs afterwards
According to wiki there are over 4200 religion
Since alot of people here are Christian
I just want to ask
What about the other religion?
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You don't like me yawning? Would you prefer I call you ignorant? That's what you do, right? :2funny:
You admit, "You make a good point about the Pope being Infallibility and his command was a religious command."
Now, it doesn't matter what other people do. Re-read the issue. Someone stated that there was not an established religion that does not degrade others. Yet, here we have an example.
And to further destroy any hope you have in winning this debate, look at the Galileo affair. This was clearly a degradation of a person by the pope, who had Papal Infallibility, and who personally had a hand in the affair. The list of examples go on and on. Even if I concede the First Crusade as an example, there are many many many more examples. Thus, that is why I yawn.
And your yawn example is not a good one. We established that The Byzantium King asked for help and the Pope urged. There's no denying that. However, it is not religion that forces a man to kill someone else. It's irrefutable that the leaders of the First Crusade did for their own ambitions. I already disprove your assertion that it was not a "Religious Command", hence only 60K soliders were part of the First Crusade. If you can refute the fact that it wasn't for Land then I'll rest and concede.
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*yawns*
What agenda do I have? Let's see which one of us is making huge assumptions.
You already admitted I am right.
Let's look at your Hmong vs. Muslim example. If Hmong Animism had a Hmong Animism Pope who had Religious Infallibility, and if that person said to cleanse the world of Muslims, then yes, Hmong Animism degrades Muslims. However, that is not the case. But, that is the case with Catholicism.
You are trying to argue people, but I am arguing theology. Papal decrees are religious, and popes have decreed some controversial things throughout history.
We were talking about the Ustashi right.. yes, so why are you bringing up the Papal decree here? Show me proof that the Papacy order the Ustashi movement to kill all Muslims.
You are still painting a broad brush. By your example you are only painting a broad brush if there is a Pope involved only? So my assertion that you spin an event to your needs is correct. Hello, there was no Pope involved in the Ustashi movement, so your example I quoted above has no prejudice with the discussion at hand here. My example is a clear representation of what you are trying to portray, by painting a broad brush to make your point.
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I am talking to you about the ludicrous things he said. I am talking to all that agrees to such commands or there lack off.
Politically correctness is what it is called. Free education for those that do not yet know like dude.
And what did I agree to... ? I missed something obviously.
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Lol
Those two will tell you it is wrong to eat pork
Than go and eat baby back ribs afterwards
According to wiki there are over 4200 religion
Since alot of people here are Christian
I just want to ask
What about the other religion?
Oh please, I don't know anything about you and you don't know anything about me. Don't make assertions about people. So just stop here.
I don't give a 'hoot' about the Pope. Catholicism is a wolf in disguise, Islam is controlled opposition, most Protestant Christians are sheeple. Buddhism and Hindu, I don't know enough about yet. Judaism is nothing more than a puppet religion.
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*yawns*
1. This has nothing to do with what "the masses" think and do in the name religion because they may or may not represent a religion. However, the pope does represent the religion. Which leads us to...
2. The pope has Papal Infallibility, according to its own religion.
3. The pope made the decision to support the First Crusade. It doesn't matter if it was originally his idea or not. That decision represents the religion.
4. Does the decision to support the First Crusade degrade anyone? Yes, because they feel that the "holy lands" shouldn't be occupied by certain people.
You should note that it doesn't matter what other people wanted from the crusade. Some wanted land. Some wanted riches. It doesn't matter because all those people do not hold any religious infallibility. However, the pope does.
Moving on...
5. Maybe you are too young or simply not read in the topic, but the pope was criticized for not responding to the Ustashi movement. Why? Because of the events leading up to it, and what happened afterwards. After a papal blessing, Ante Pavelić and his Ustaša lieutenants went on the killing spree. Look it up.
Let's not just look at wars...
6. The Galileo affair. It is quite clear he was mistreated.
7. In 1179, Pope Alexander virtually denounced gays. That's a bit degrading.
8. And how long have women been banned from ordination?
Should we keep the list going?
And BTW, you already conceded. You just don't want to admit it.
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*yawns*
1. This has nothing to do with what "the masses" think and do in the name religion because they may or may not represent a religion. However, the pope does represent the religion. Which leads us to...
2. The pope has Papal Infallibility, according to its own religion.
3. The pope made the decision to support the First Crusade. It doesn't matter if it was originally his idea or not. That decision represents the religion.
4. Does the decision to support the First Crusade degrade anyone? Yes, because they feel that the "holy lands" shouldn't be occupied by certain people.
You should note that it doesn't matter what other people wanted from the crusade. Some wanted land. Some wanted riches. It doesn't matter because all those people do not hold any religious infallibility. However, the pope does.
Moving on...
5. Maybe you are too young or simply not read in the topic, but the pope was criticized for not responding to the Ustashi movement. Why? Because of the events leading up to it, and what happened afterwards. After a papal blessing, Ante Pavelić and his Ustaša lieutenants went on the killing spree. Look it up.
Let's not just look at wars...
6. The Galileo affair. It is quite clear he was mistreated.
7. In 1179, Pope Alexander virtually denounced gays. That's a bit degrading.
8. And how long have women been banned from ordination?
Should we keep the list going?
And BTW, you already conceded. You just don't want to admit it.
I wrote a long reply, but let's just keep it this simple.
People often use the 10 commandments as the defacto moral and religious way to act for Christians, Jews and Muslims. If the 10 commandments represent what Christians should do, then don't you think what the Pope says or decree is wrong. He in fact does not represent the religion. So the Pope really has no bearing on his own religion if he counters what his own religion teaches.
You can give all the examples you want, but religion does not degrade anyone. Man does.
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*yawns*
I see you are grasping at straws. You lost on the argument, and now you want to bring in another argument. If you don't believe the Pope is infallible, then that is fine. In fact, there is an entire group of Christians who don't think the Pope is infallible; they are called Protestants. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't help your argument. I only need to state ONE example from ONE established religion to prove my point. Pick your favorite example. If you don't like the Crusades, then pick the Ustashi movement. Don't like that? Pick Galileo. Pick gays. Pick women.
And BTW, I don't even need to try to hard to rebuttal you. I'll let you rebuttal yourself:
You argue, "So the Pope really has no bearing on his own religion if he counters what his own religion teaches."
You wrote, "You make a good point about the Pope being Infallibility and his command was a religious command."
Maybe you should stick with name-calling. You seem better at that. :2funny:
I wrote a long reply, but let's just keep it this simple.
People often use the 10 commandments as the defacto moral and religious way to act for Christians, Jews and Muslims. If the 10 commandments represent what Christians should do, then don't you think what the Pope says or decree is wrong. He in fact does not represent the religion. So the Pope really has no bearing on his own religion if he counters what his own religion teaches.
You can give all the examples you want, but religion does not degrade anyone. Man does.
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Oh please, I don't know anything about you and you don't know anything about me. Don't make assertions about people. So just stop here.
I don't give a 'hoot' about the Pope. Catholicism is a wolf in disguise, Islam is controlled opposition, most Protestant Christians are sheeple. Buddhism and Hindu, I don't know enough about yet. Judaism is nothing more than a puppet religion.
Your the type of person who will suck the head juice out of those jumbo shrimp
I don't blame you
Them shrimp are delicious
Practice what you preach
Why go every Sunday if you not going follow the rules
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*yawns*
You asked, "So out of the blue, pope urban calls for a religious war? " It doesn't matter. But for the sake of debate, let's give your argument it's best case. Let's say that he was influenced. The result is still that he called it.
You asked, "You blame on the chicken or the egg?" Well, this question makes no sense.
You wrote, " If you call me a dummy, you should and could always get schooling from a dummy." No one called you a dummy. It's all in your own head.
Now let's see you dance around the issue and questions. :2funny:
I'm calling you out on your facts. They are not even accurate. You probably did not even know that it was a call to aid the Byzantine emperor's request had you were not educated in this one thread alone.
I saw what you did there. YOu better edited your reply because you said something stupid again. The catholic church has an army huh? Check your facts before you typed stupid. :2funny:
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*yawns*
1. You asked for your questions to be answered before you answer, and I did. Now look at you avoiding everything.
2. I edit replies for grammar. If you think I changed the fundamental content, then show it.
3. Name-calling doesn't make you right.
4. Between the two of us, which one of us gets information wrong? Please tell us which Super Bowl 50 team was younger. :2funny:
You just mad because you were wrong about the Super Bowl result and the information about the teams. Now, you want to troll me. We all see it. :2funny: :2funny:
I'm calling you out on your facts. They are not even accurate. You probably did not even know that it was a call to aid the Byzantine emperor's request had you were not educated in this one thread alone.
I saw what you did there. YOu better edited your reply because you said something stupid again. The catholic church has an army huh? Check your facts before you typed stupid. :2funny:
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*yawns*
1. You asked for your questions to be answered before you answer, and I did. Now look at you avoiding everything.
2. I edit replies for grammar. If you think I changed the fundamental content, then show it.
3. Name-calling doesn't make you right.
4. Between the two of us, which one of us gets information wrong? Please tell us which Super Bowl 50 team was younger. :2funny:
You just mad because you were wrong about the Super Bowl result and the information about the teams. Now, you want to troll me. We all see it. :2funny: :2funny:
"1099 - The Roman Catholic Army kill over 70k Muslims. - bulbasaur
The roman catholic has an army?
"Inspired by Urban's preaching 20,000 people, mostly peasants, led by Peter the Hermit set off in response"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
I wouldn't call it an army. :2funny:
Once again, check your facts before talking stupid. O0
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*yawns*
Are you going to answer the questions or not? Or are you just going to rant on and on? Just answer one easy one first...
1. Did you get your information correct about the Panthers being younger than the Broncos?
:2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
"1099 - The Roman Catholic Army kill over 70k Muslims. - bulbasaur
The roman catholic has an army?
"Inspired by Urban's preaching 20,000 people, mostly peasants, led by Peter the Hermit set off in response"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
I wouldn't call it an army. :2funny:
Once again, check your facts before talking stupid. O0
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*yawns*
Are you going to answer the questions or not? Or are you just going to rant on and on? Just answer one easy one first...
1. Did you get your information correct about the Panthers being younger than the Broncos?
:2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
yes, the carolina panthers and the denver broncos both have an army :2funny:
They also have a commander in chief and a few generals like how the vatican has their generals and foot soldiers. The catholic church has an army huh? :2funny:
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*yawns*
Are you going to answer the questions or not? Or are you just going to rant on and on? Just answer one easy one first...
1. Did you get your information correct about the Panthers being younger than the Broncos?
:2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
yes, the carolina panthers and the denver broncos both have an army :2funny:
They also have a commander in chief and a few generals like how the vatican has their generals and foot soldiers. The catholic church has an army huh? :2funny:
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"1099 - The Roman Catholic Army kill over 70k Muslims. - bulbasaur
The roman catholic has an army?
"Inspired by Urban's preaching 20,000 people, mostly peasants, led by Peter the Hermit set off in response"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
I wouldn't call it an army. :2funny:
Once again, check your facts before talking stupid. O0
lol fetishdream
you should really read the link before you post
The Crusades were a series of intermittent Papal sanctioned military campaigns beginning in the late 11th-century
first sentence in the link you posted, not sure if you can read
that is as army as you can be
i heard rambo is a one man army.
too funny
anyways, what about the other religion?