PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: TheAfterLife on July 22, 2016, 09:43:48 PM
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By all means, I just found out that Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and Hmong are all cousins in the O family. We are O-M7 while the Chinese are O-M117. By genetics, the Chinese are our younger cousins that branched off from us. If we go BACK to the story of Chiyou, Chiyou had 3 sons to govern each different tribe. One was to rule us, the other ruled Korea, and my hypothesis for the third son is to rule the Han Chinese that joined us. The Ainu, Yayoi, and Jomon shared the same O type blood with us. My hypothesis is that the second son of Chiyou might have migrated from Korea to Japan. If we go back and study the Liangzhu culture/Leej Txwv ces cais, we are known as the first asian man that made rice everyday. If this is true, that means rice isn't Chinese food. Rice did belong to our culture of the Liangzhu. This only means that the Chinese had stole our culture and adopted to theirs. Also, this includes our technology of farming, metal, and other tools that we use to kill them. The Hmong empire lasted for 500 years in the earlier metal age at the post Stone Age of men. The question is: Is Hmong the first Asian tribes before others are born? I know that the Austro-people are WAAAY different from us. All of Hmong people are Neolithic people in the northern tribes in East Russia of Siberia. If Yayoi, Ainu, and Jomon are related to the people of Liangzhu culture, then they are Hmong that got turned into Japanese. The Y-DNA is the 50% of haplogroup O group are from Koreans and Japanese. If Koreans and Japanese are alike, since they do have a common thing and some similarities in their culture and practices, then they all came from the same place of Shandong, which is Dongyi.
What's your opinion? Does it sound something that we Hmong people can go and research about our origins? Are Hmong the first people in China before other race are born?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7abV2LnTjxw&list=FLYnrO0TIIkmnxvfbYuc4bMw&index=48 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7abV2LnTjxw&list=FLYnrO0TIIkmnxvfbYuc4bMw&index=48)
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My opinion: there is a time and place for literature, folklore, myth, and art. But these do not belong in the same area as (written) history. History is much more educational and valid when we focus only on the written, verifiable history.
Chiyou is a mythical figure and should never be considered real history, especially using Chiyou to trace human population genetics. Wielding a 100lbs sword, breathing fog into the battlefield, summoning demons to fight? Like I said, literature has its place but as soon as you bring up a mythical figure as a way to determine where whole groups of humans originated from, I just gotta laugh.
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If we preceded the Chinese, our culture would have been much more developed and we would also know how to love and protect our culture more. Looking at how less advanced we are today compared to the Chinese advancements, I'll say we could not have created a culture for the Chinese to imitate or steal from. To claim that the Chinese stole our culture is like saying the river is bigger than the ocean and not the other way around.
Of course, rivers are known to add much to the higher sea level as some do have their own sources. So, there have been a few things that are Hmong in origin. But not everything Chinese is originally Hmong.
Rice was indeed first discovered and farmed by the Hmong. But the plant itself was provided by nature .
The Hmong need to focus on catching up and advancing.
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By all means, I just found out that Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and Hmong are all cousins in the O family. We are O-M7 while the Chinese are O-M117. By genetics, the Chinese are our younger cousins that branched off from us. If we go BACK to the story of Chiyou, Chiyou had 3 sons to govern each different tribe. One was to rule us, the other ruled Korea, and my hypothesis for the third son is to rule the Han Chinese that joined us. The Ainu, Yayoi, and Jomon shared the same O type blood with us. My hypothesis is that the second son of Chiyou might have migrated from Korea to Japan. If we go back and study the Liangzhu culture/Leej Txwv ces cais, we are known as the first asian man that made rice everyday. If this is true, that means rice isn't Chinese food. Rice did belong to our culture of the Liangzhu. This only means that the Chinese had stole our culture and adopted to theirs. Also, this includes our technology of farming, metal, and other tools that we use to kill them. The Hmong empire lasted for 500 years in the earlier metal age at the post Stone Age of men. The question is: Is Hmong the first Asian tribes before others are born? I know that the Austro-people are WAAAY different from us. All of Hmong people are Neolithic people in the northern tribes in East Russia of Siberia. If Yayoi, Ainu, and Jomon are related to the people of Liangzhu culture, then they are Hmong that got turned into Japanese. The Y-DNA is the 50% of haplogroup O group are from Koreans and Japanese. If Koreans and Japanese are alike, since they do have a common thing and some similarities in their culture and practices, then they all came from the same place of Shandong, which is Dongyi.
What's your opinion? Does it sound something that we Hmong people can go and research about our origins? Are Hmong the first people in China before other race are born?
1. the chinese did not "branch off" from hmong. hmong/miao (O-M7, O-002611) and chinese (O-M134, O-M117) branched from O-M324 in PARALLEL. http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA) (http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA))
2. don't use the Chi You myth to try and establish facts...it just makes hmong people look ignorant.
3. Liangzhu culture is not associated with hmong people. Liangzhu culture is associated with people from yDNA O-M119. hmong/miao people are associated with Pengtoushan, Daxi, Qujialing and Shijiahe cultures in the neolithic. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6180520_Y_chromosomes_of_Prehistoric_People_along_the_Yangtze_River (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6180520_Y_chromosomes_of_Prehistoric_People_along_the_Yangtze_River)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pengtoushan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pengtoushan)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daxi_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daxi_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qujialing_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qujialing_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shijiahe_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shijiahe_culture)
4. hmong are the originators of rice in East Asia, but it wasn't from Liangzhu culture, it was from Daxi culture. the type of rice found at Liangzhu died out. all modern Japonica rice comes from Daxi rice. http://archaeobotanist.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-genome-map-that-is-not-map-of-origins.html (http://archaeobotanist.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-genome-map-that-is-not-map-of-origins.html)
(http://i.imgur.com/MQsMIQ4.png)
5. hmong are not the "first asians", far from it. hmong and chinese are some of the very last asians. hmong and chinese are both predominantly from yDNA O3. hmong and chinese yDNA O3 most likely came from O3 in austro-asiatic people:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226206/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226206/)
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282)
...and austroasiatic people most likely came from tai-kadai people: http://www.nature.com/articles/srep15486 (http://www.nature.com/articles/srep15486)
"We demonstrated that the O2a1-M95 lineage (high frequency in austro-asiatic and tai-kadai peoples) originated in the southern East Asia among the Daic-speaking populations ~20–40 thousand years ago and then dispersed southward to Southeast Asia after the Last Glacial Maximum..."
6. hmong people in the neolithic were not in Siberia. really, when will hmong stop this nonsense about Mongolia and Siberia? again, hmong people in the neolithic are associated with the Pengtoushan, Daxi, Qujialing and Shijiahe cultures, encompassing areas in modern day Hunan and Hubei provinces in China.
7. Yayoi, Ainu, and Jomon are not associated with Liangzhu. high frequencies of yDNA O-M119 was found at Liangzhu. people today with high frequencies of yDNA O-M119 are austronesian speakers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175)
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Just a word of advice. I wouldn't source Wikipedia as the sole or primary database for information.
That being said, this isn't an attack on you personally. Your arguments are just very provocative and almost always a little too biased.
There has to be some objectivity.
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1. the chinese did not "branch off" from hmong. hmong/miao (O-M7, O-002611) and chinese (O-M134, O-M117) branched from O-M324 in PARALLEL. http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA) (http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA))
2. don't use the Chi You myth to try and establish facts...it just makes hmong people look ignorant.
3. Liangzhu culture is not associated with hmong people. Liangzhu culture is associated with people from yDNA O-M119. hmong/miao people are associated with Pengtoushan, Daxi, Qujialing and Shijiahe cultures in the neolithic. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6180520_Y_chromosomes_of_Prehistoric_People_along_the_Yangtze_River (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6180520_Y_chromosomes_of_Prehistoric_People_along_the_Yangtze_River)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pengtoushan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pengtoushan)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daxi_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daxi_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qujialing_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qujialing_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shijiahe_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shijiahe_culture)
4. hmong are the originators of rice in East Asia, but it wasn't from Liangzhu culture, it was from Daxi culture. the type of rice found at Liangzhu died out. all modern Japonica rice comes from Daxi rice. http://archaeobotanist.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-genome-map-that-is-not-map-of-origins.html (http://archaeobotanist.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-genome-map-that-is-not-map-of-origins.html)
(http://i.imgur.com/MQsMIQ4.png)
5. hmong are not the "first asians", far from it. hmong and chinese are some of the very last asians. hmong and chinese are both predominantly from yDNA O3. hmong and chinese yDNA O3 most likely came from O3 in austro-asiatic people:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226206/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1226206/)
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282)
...and austroasiatic people most likely came from tai-kadai people: http://www.nature.com/articles/srep15486 (http://www.nature.com/articles/srep15486)
"We demonstrated that the O2a1-M95 lineage (high frequency in austro-asiatic and tai-kadai peoples) originated in the southern East Asia among the Daic-speaking populations ~20–40 thousand years ago and then dispersed southward to Southeast Asia after the Last Glacial Maximum..."
6. hmong people in the neolithic were not in Siberia. really, when will hmong stop this nonsense about Mongolia and Siberia? again, hmong people in the neolithic are associated with the Pengtoushan, Daxi, Qujialing and Shijiahe cultures, encompassing areas in modern day Hunan and Hubei provinces in China.
7. Yayoi, Ainu, and Jomon are not associated with Liangzhu. high frequencies of yDNA O-M119 was found at Liangzhu. people today with high frequencies of yDNA O-M119 are austronesian speakers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O-M175)
I'm impressed. Was the information gathered something you had on hand or do you just know your stuff?
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I'm impressed. Was the information gathered something you had on hand or do you just know your stuff?
it's accumulated info. what's sad is that it's info that is available on the net to anyone and yet, hmong people seem to prefer to resort to myths and legends and hearsay to drum up the most ridiculous conclusions. it's part of the reason why i try not to visit these forums cause i just end up facepalming most of the times.
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If you translate hand into Japanese, we say the same thing too. Tes!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbabaram_language
"Mbabaram is famous in linguistic circles for a striking coincidence in its vocabulary. When Dixon finally managed to meet Bennett, he began his study of the language by eliciting a few basic nouns; among the first of these was the word for "dog". Bennett supplied the Mbabaram translation, dog. Dixon suspected that Bennett hadn't understood the question, or that Bennett's knowledge of Mbabaram had been tainted by decades of using English. But it turned out that the Mbabaram word for "dog" really is dog, pronounced almost identically to the English word (compare true cognates such as Yidiny gudaga, Dyirbal guda, Djabugay gurraa and Guugu Yimidhirr gudaa, for example[3][4]). The similarity is a complete coincidence: there is no discernible relationship between English and Mbabaram. This and other false cognates are often cited as a caution against deciding that languages are related based on a small number of comparisons."
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Then do explain about Yayoi's origin in the Yangtze river? Hmong came from the Yangtze river, which is our water source and our only wall or border line of our country...I think...
Yayoi and Jomon share the same origin of the Yangtze river to what they spoke of. Since Hmong were the FIRST Asian ethnics before other ethnics came, then this tells me that we are the natives of China.
the Yayoi people's origin is still not conclusive. 3 out of 36 subjects were "partial" matches to Yayoi people in Japan...that is hardly conclusive. from the reference in the wiki: "But the most persuasive findings resulted from tests revealing that genetic samples from three of 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains, the scientists said." the evidence is also just as strong that Yayoi were from Korea. from what i've learned, there's likely to have been 3 significant migrations to Japan: Jomon people first, then a group from eastern China, then the Yayoi.
the Jomon is even more mysterious than Yayoi. to say they were from the Yangtze delta is ridiculous.
i've already written why hmong are not the "FIRST Asians". in addition, there were many contemporary civilizations in neolithic china, the hmong were just one among them. what is obvious is that the coastal civilizations like Liangzhu were different than the inland civilizations of the hmong and han chinese. please post your reference and proof that hmong are the "first asians" cause i would like to know why you keep making this statement.
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If you say Yayoi comes from Korea, then that means Chiyou second son must have migrated up there to stay way from the Chinese persecution. The third son of Chiyou stayed and defend the capital before being executed by the Han. The older brother went south to Hebei, which is us.
i did not say Yayoi were from Korea and you should not say Yayoi were from Korea. i said "the evidence is just as strong that the Yayoi were from Korea". there's a difference. no one can say definitively where the Yayoi came from.
if you can't tear yourself away from the Chiyou myth and legend, well there's not much more to say. i am really, really fascinated by this trait in hmong people that gravitates towards fantasy. it's displayed throughout history in groups where there is some association with hmong people.
Shang dynasty: shamans, rituals and magic.
Chu kingdom: shamans, rituals and magic.
hmong/miao rebellions during the Qing: the leader was suppose to have magic and be some kind of prophet.
Paj Cai Vwj, leader of the rebellion against the French in Laos: supposedly some kind of prophet and would climb trees to talk with God.
hmong culture: shamans, rituals and magic.
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The Mongols stopped their conquest of Japan due to having to use boats for transportation and really Japan didn't seem like a great place to conquer anyways. Maybe they had technological advancements but riches? Nope, nothing close to Asia and Europe. The Mongols were doing BIG, squashing LARGE plots of lands. If they really wanted Japan they would have just taken it but to them it probably wasn't worth it. High investment, low rewards.
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Okinawa has been debated SOOO many times already and my Japanese friend who is half-black and half-Japanese, he read the history of HIS own people and declared that some of his tribes might've been Hmong.
Well...when I was in okinawa....
Some drunk okinawa guy talked to me...he thought I was okinawan....
And these two Japanese girls talk to me....thought I was a okinawan local...
Then mister Miyagi taught me karate.
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i did not say Yayoi were from Korea and you should not say Yayoi were from Korea. i said "the evidence is just as strong that the Yayoi were from Korea". there's a difference. no one can say definitively where the Yayoi came from.
if you can't tear yourself away from the Chiyou myth and legend, well there's not much more to say. i am really, really fascinated by this trait in hmong people that gravitates towards fantasy. it's displayed throughout history in groups where there is some association with hmong people.
Shang dynasty: shamans, rituals and magic.
Chu kingdom: shamans, rituals and magic.
hmong/miao rebellions during the Qing: the leader was suppose to have magic and be some kind of prophet.
Paj Cai Vwj, leader of the rebellion against the French in Laos: supposedly some kind of prophet and would climb trees to talk with God.
hmong culture: shamans, rituals and magic.
In conclusion, Hmong people as a whole has not evolved much..probably due to all those cousin marriages, jk, not really. I read on a Chinese site that the magpie Hmong in China had to marry their brothers and sisters and cousins to repopulate and I read that many Hmong in China only marry within their own groups, which sometimes is only a few thousands
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First off...yalls citing wikipedia...
I cant believe filks still cite wikipedia!!! Yes it has alot of useful and correct information but if you want to be take seriously you must not say "wikipedia said...."
And also, you guys mean to tell me chinese, japanese, koreans, hmongs, came from 4 people... man! Those guys did alot of banging!!! Do you know how long it would actually take to bang out out 1 billion chinese folks starting from that time frame with just 4 guys?!? Man!!
Oh wells!!
I would rather much stick to my folk lores..
Like the stories of how we got our last names..i cant remember exactly how it goes..somethin g like we are named after plants or something...
There are truth to our lores in my opinion....the y just didnt make them out from nothing.
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I read Chiyou and the rest just read like a fictional fantasy.
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It appears that ethnic groups who don't know their own history tend to drum up the most ridiculous claims to build their self-esteem.
This is like Black-Americans claiming they are the lost Israel tribe or that they are descendants of Shem and not Ham, or that they were those innovative Moors or part of Pharaoh's Egypt.
Um, no, idiots. Most slaves were from the Congo and Angola.
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It appears that ethnic groups who don't know their own history tend to drum up the most ridiculous claims to build their self-esteem.
This is like Black-Americans claiming they are the lost Israel tribe or that they are descendants of Shem and not Ham, or that they were those innovative Moors or part of Pharaoh's Egypt.
Um, no, idiots. Most slaves were from the Congo and Angola.
Pretty much and it's scary that a lot of Hmong think this way. When I went to the We Are Hmong Minnesota Exhibit and saw 'Hmong are accredited for being the first to plant rice', I wanted to face-palm/hide my face and run out. And then I heard that the same person who curated the exhibit wanted to build a Chi You statue in Minnesota :'(
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Pretty much and it's scary that a lot of Hmong think this way. When I went to the We Are Hmong Minnesota Exhibit and saw 'Hmong are accredited for being the first to plant rice', I wanted to face-palm/hide my face and run out. And then I heard that the same person who curated the exhibit wanted to build a Chi You statue in Minnesota :'(
This is what happened when your group of people chose not to create a writing language. Let's start with the basic.
1. We know for sure majority of Hmong American came from SEA.
2. Hmong came to SEA as early as 1850s.
3. Hmong most likely partake in the the 3 Miao Rebellion. According to folklore Hmong/Miao will riot 30 years and revolt every 60 years. The three Miao rebellion times were 1735-1736. 1795-1806. 1854-73. And then later 1918-1921 with Paj Cai Vwj. The last one maybe coincidental or part of a political propaganda to rebel the imperialist. In any case we can be sure we were recorded there.
From there on it gets tricky. There isn't much record about us beyond the Ming Dynasty. Other than the Miao rebellion and the Southern Great Wall incident. It can be infer that most of us Hmong are basically fracture multi-ethnic neolithic east Asian that adopted the culture that eventually becomes what we know is Hmong to day.
The only similarity we can draw from gaps of ancient China today Hmong is our custom. Based on tradition and practice we can argue our belief derives from the Shang and Zhou Dynasty practices. And if you truly believe that you are ancestor came from Siberia. lol Which I still laugh at some Hmong people really believing that. Look up at Francouis Savina. The scariest thing is Xanadu or Dadu is very similar to the myth that we came from Sauv Ntuj and the phrase "rov taw/tuam ntai ntuj." Even ceeb tsheej is JinCheng refer to the inner city wall.
Although it's very weak evidence but yeah if you check wiki and mess around with Hmong and Mandarin its very scary.
An example of messing with google translate is that 回答 = Hu Teb = To answer.
At best I'd say we might coalition with the Mongols, Jurchen at one point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanbaliq
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_city_fortifications#Inner_city
That is about all folks. Peace out.
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First off...yalls citing wikipedia...
I cant believe filks still cite wikipedia!!! Yes it has alot of useful and correct information but if you want to be take seriously you must not say "wikipedia said...."
And also, you guys mean to tell me chinese, japanese, koreans, hmongs, came from 4 people... man! Those guys did alot of banging!!! Do you know how long it would actually take to bang out out 1 billion chinese folks starting from that time frame with just 4 guys?!? Man!!
Oh wells!!
I would rather much stick to my folk lores..
Like the stories of how we got our last names..i cant remember exactly how it goes..somethin g like we are named after plants or something...
There are truth to our lores in my opinion....the y just didnt make them out from nothing.
I can't believe you are sticking to your folklore as truth but you don't even know how it goes.
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http://www.encyclopedia.com/plants-and-animals/plants/plants/rice (http://www.encyclopedia.com/plants-and-animals/plants/plants/rice)
http://ricepedia.org/ (http://ricepedia.org/)
http://www.airea.net/page/3/the-origin (http://www.airea.net/page/3/the-origin)
https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/100/5/951/136576/The-Complex-History-of-the-Domestication-of-Rice (https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/100/5/951/136576/The-Complex-History-of-the-Domestication-of-Rice)