PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: Tubpojntxoog on March 19, 2013, 11:52:21 PM
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What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?
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You can. The OG are going to make it hard on you.
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What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?
I would rather marry a stranger with the same last name than a family member with a different last name i.e., cousin. If the Chinese and Koreans were able to drop that primitive belief, the Hmong can as well. It's really up to the individual to decide but there is nothing illegal or wrong with two strangers of the same last name marrying imo.
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Cultures around the world believe that incest will result in deformed or disabled children in some ways. Scientists believe that to be the case.
However, not every case is the same, and so not every incestuous marriage will result in some disabled child(ren). It's only marriages among close relatives that have a higher risk of disabled children. Among strangers is a different thing.
Therefore, if the Hmong are going to change this taboo, I suggest still to lift it only for marriages among strangers. We should not allow first or even third cousins and siblings to marry one another.
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I would rather marry a stranger with the same last name than a family member with a different last name i.e., cousin. If the Chinese and Koreans were able to drop that primitive belief, the Hmong can as well. It's really up to the individual to decide but there is nothing illegal or wrong with two strangers of the same last name marrying imo.
my mom told me that it was the only rule of dating.......b ut she never thought i'd marry Korean so it really didn't matter much. I think that if you don't know them or there dad, then good enough. My wife has two good girl frinds from college that are also Mouas. She doesn't know anyone in there family that's related to our family... I think if you have done a little background such as this in the case of someone you may be interested in, I feel it is good enough
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it would be okay to marry someone of same last name but not of same clan. O0
;D ... :idiot2: ... you just "contradicted" yourself ... :2funny:
Perhaps you are trying to say, "same last name but not of same lineage" ... ;)
Nowadays, especially in the USA/West, outright ignorance bordering stupidity is so blatant and epidemic, that Song is marrying Xiong, Thor marrying Thao, Yang marrying Yaj, Lee marrying Lis etc. etc., where they all claim they do not have the same last name or is of the same clan, even Moua on Moua, Vang on Vang, Vue on Vue etc., --- :2funny: ... :idiot2: :idiot2: :idiot2:
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What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?
It will raise complication during funeral time, unless you live that long together.
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Cultures around the world believe that incest will result in deformed or disabled children in some ways. Scientists believe that to be the case.
However, not every case is the same, and so not every incestuous marriage will result in some disabled child(ren). It's only marriages among close relatives that have a higher risk of disabled children. Among strangers is a different thing.
Therefore, if the Hmong are going to change this taboo, I suggest still to lift it only for marriages among strangers. We should not allow first or even third cousins and siblings to marry one another.
Reporter,
That's exactly how I feel. I think whoever created the Hmong or maybe Hmong ancestors knew something about genetic issue; therefore, they created the clan system for Hmong and made it a taboo for marriage within same last name to avoid genetic problem. However, the practice of marriage of first cousins with different last name is wrong, but it is something Hmong has done ever since. I think if we keep first cousins out of the way, we will be fine.
And yes, the OG will make it tough on this issue, but if you and I and all the new generation come together, we can lift the taboo.
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Birth defects, whether physical, mental, or a combo of both, as a result of incest, is quite rare. It's not like the horror stories make them out to be.
We all have bad recessive genes that for whatever reason, doesn't surface. When we marry out of our bloodline, that recessive gene stays recessive...or at least you hope your spouse's bloodline also doesn't have that recessive gene. However, marrying within the blood allows that recessive gene to more likely surface. So let's say, maybe in the past 3-4 generations, a family had only 1 person that had asthma. But then down the line, two cousins have an incestuous relationship, and then most of their children have asthma.
It works like that. It's not like an incest is going to produce swamp thing. Most incestuous couples may have a lifetime of normal children just like other non-consanguine couples. Because the DNA is simply being recycled from the same source or whatnot, between two related male and female, the chances of the recessive genes (that were already existing) just simply has more chances to come out.
It's like grabbing balls out of a jar; there's 98 blue balls and there are only 2 red balls. An incest creates a brand new jar (a baby) with 100 balls again, but this time there are 4 red balls.
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Regardless of anything else.... Hmong people do not believe in marrying same last names and I'm not going to start. It's embarrassing and shameful to say the least. There are enough Hmong last names that you don't need to be acting like a redneck. What's next, looking for dates at family reunions?
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Reporter,
That's exactly how I feel. I think whoever created the Hmong or maybe Hmong ancestors knew something about genetic issue; therefore, they created the clan system for Hmong and made it a taboo for marriage within same last name to avoid genetic problem. However, the practice of marriage of first cousins with different last name is wrong, but it is something Hmong has done ever since. I think if we keep first cousins out of the way, we will be fine.
And yes, the OG will make it tough on this issue, but if you and I and all the new generation come together, we can lift the taboo.
If Hmoob ancestors knew anything about genetics they would have BANNED or PROHIBITED first cousin marriage. Hmoob ancestors ruam li ruam xwb....and yet, peb tseem follow lawv ruam rules thiab? In a sense...peb tseem RUAM TSHAJ lawv lawm thiab?
Nej xav seb puav yog li kuv hais? ua tsaug.
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If Hmoob ancestors knew anything about genetics they would have BANNED or PROHIBITED first cousin marriage. Hmoob ancestors ruam li ruam xwb....and yet, peb tseem follow lawv ruam rules thiab? In a sense...peb tseem RUAM TSHAJ lawv lawm thiab?
Nej xav seb puav yog li kuv hais? ua tsaug.
I'm sure they were more concerned with incest becoming a problem in Hmong society.
In any case, I find it hypocritical to call them "stupid" for believing what they believed. All races of people are built upon the pillars of ancestors. Even your own ideas had to come from somewhere. No American is ignorant enough to call their Fore Fathers idiots because they had no knowledge of modern science. Yet, here you are presenting the same illogical analogy.
Tell you what, go marry the same last name and bring shame on yourself and your family. I guarantee you will regret it. Of the very few people I know who have done this shameful act, NONE of them can show their faces in public anymore. In fact, they ended up getting divorced because it was too much for them. But the damage is done and they are too embarrassed to do anything near Hmong people; even their friends and family. Think about that.
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If Hmoob ancestors knew anything about genetics they would have BANNED or PROHIBITED first cousin marriage. Hmoob ancestors ruam li ruam xwb....and yet, peb tseem follow lawv ruam rules thiab? In a sense...peb tseem RUAM TSHAJ lawv lawm thiab?
Nej xav seb puav yog li kuv hais? ua tsaug.
No, koj hais tsis yog lawm. Yog peb Hmoob ruam npaum koj hais, peb raug ciaj tsuj tau 4000 - 5000 xyoo, peb tsis muaj Hmoob nyob ntiajteb lawm. Kuv tsis tau hnov cov scholars agree haistias ib haiv neeg yuav ntse dua ib haiv. Neeg ces ntse ib yam thiab ruam ib yam nkaus xwb, vim neeg yog one species xwb. Qhov uas tej haiv neeg muaj kev txawj ntse siab dua mas yog los ntawm txoj kev kawm thiab kev ua neej hloov mus raws txoj kev khawv noj khawv haus ntawd.
Qhov uas cov laus lawv tsis txwv kev sib yuav ntawm first cousin mas yog vim lawv tsis paub, tsis yog tias lawv ruam. Lawv tsis paub npaum tus tsim Hmoob paub. Tus tsim Hmoob (neeg) mas nws paub zoo txog cov genetic problem, tiamsis yog nws yuav muab qhia rau neeg ces yuav nyuaj heev rau neeg to taub, vim lub caij ntawv neeg lub hlwb tseem primitive heev (zoo li Niam no neeg piav txog quantum physics rau chimpanzee xwb). Yog li ntawd nws thiaj tsim cov xeem rau Hmoob thiab muab ua ib qho kev ntseeg rau Hmoob thiaj yoojyim rau Hmoob.
Pivtxwv li ntawm peb cov txim. Qhov cov 5 txig ncau mus uas 7 txim mas twb yog thaum ub cov laus lawv ua Nyuj Dab ces muaj 5 tug tub ces lawv rau 5 txig. Tiamsis Tom qab ntawv cov ntxhais ho mus yuav txiv ces thaum lawv ua nyuaj dab ces 2 txwg ntxhais vauv tuaj koom. Thaum cov laus pom tias yog yuav rau 5 txig rau cov tub xwb ces cov ntxhais vauv yuav tu siab rau Niam txiv. Yog li ntawd, lawv thiaj nug tus txiv muam coj dab tias ua li rau 2 txig rau ob khub ntxhais vauv thiab puas tau? Tus coj dab thiaj haistias ua tau kawg, ces lawv txawm ua 2 txig ntxiv. Yog li cov txim thiaj ncau ntxiv lawm. Koj paub txog qhov no lawm los? Qhov ncau tsis yog ncau pem tiamsis yeeb vim cov laus muaj lub siab dawb thiab hlub txhua tus. Tiamsis tom qab thaum tas cov laus tiam ntawv lawm, cov hluas ci li muab txoj kev ncau txim ntawv ua ib qho sib cais kwv cais tij lawm, tsis raws li qhov cov laus ua tseg. Ntawm kev sib yuav los yeej zoo ib yam li thiab. Thaum peb huam vam coob tuaj ces txawm muaj tus take advantage to cheat the system. Thaum sawvdaws pom tias muaj tus ua li ces sawvdaws txawm xyaum ntxiv.
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I'm sure they were more concerned with incest becoming a problem in Hmong society.
In any case, I find it hypocritical to call them "stupid" for believing what they believed. All races of people are built upon the pillars of ancestors. Even your own ideas had to come from somewhere. No American is ignorant enough to call their Fore Fathers idiots because they had no knowledge of modern science. Yet, here you are presenting the same illogical analogy.
Tell you what, go marry the same last name and bring shame on yourself and your family. I guarantee you will regret it. Of the very few people I know who have done this shameful act, NONE of them can show their faces in public anymore. In fact, they ended up getting divorced because it was too much for them. But the damage is done and they are too embarrassed to do anything near Hmong people; even their friends and family. Think about that.
sage...point taken, but if these "geniuses" were smart as you claimed....why allowed first cousins marriage? I believe we were once could marry within our own clan....but some where (I'm speculating here without facts) back in china during the warring periods....Hmo ob were defeated and divided to make us easier to control. Hmoob were divided in to clans....So over time, Hmoob cia li develop this "clan ship" system los siv rau hmoob lawm xwb.
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No, koj hais tsis yog lawm. Yog peb Hmoob ruam npaum koj hais, peb raug ciaj tsuj tau 4000 - 5000 xyoo, peb tsis muaj Hmoob nyob ntiajteb lawm. Kuv tsis tau hnov cov scholars agree haistias ib haiv neeg yuav ntse dua ib haiv. Neeg ces ntse ib yam thiab ruam ib yam nkaus xwb, vim neeg yog one species xwb. Qhov uas tej haiv neeg muaj kev txawj ntse siab dua mas yog los ntawm txoj kev kawm thiab kev ua neej hloov mus raws txoj kev khawv noj khawv haus ntawd.
Qhov uas cov laus lawv tsis txwv kev sib yuav ntawm first cousin mas yog vim lawv tsis paub, tsis yog tias lawv ruam. Lawv tsis paub npaum tus tsim Hmoob paub. Tus tsim Hmoob (neeg) mas nws paub zoo txog cov genetic problem, tiamsis yog nws yuav muab qhia rau neeg ces yuav nyuaj heev rau neeg to taub, vim lub caij ntawv neeg lub hlwb tseem primitive heev (zoo li Niam no neeg piav txog quantum physics rau chimpanzee xwb). Yog li ntawd nws thiaj tsim cov xeem rau Hmoob thiab muab ua ib qho kev ntseeg rau Hmoob thiaj yoojyim rau Hmoob.
Pivtxwv li ntawm peb cov txim. Qhov cov 5 txig ncau mus uas 7 txim mas twb yog thaum ub cov laus lawv ua Nyuj Dab ces muaj 5 tug tub ces lawv rau 5 txig. Tiamsis Tom qab ntawv cov ntxhais ho mus yuav txiv ces thaum lawv ua nyuaj dab ces 2 txwg ntxhais vauv tuaj koom. Thaum cov laus pom tias yog yuav rau 5 txig rau cov tub xwb ces cov ntxhais vauv yuav tu siab rau Niam txiv. Yog li ntawd, lawv thiaj nug tus txiv muam coj dab tias ua li rau 2 txig rau ob khub ntxhais vauv thiab puas tau? Tus coj dab thiaj haistias ua tau kawg, ces lawv txawm ua 2 txig ntxiv. Yog li cov txim thiaj ncau ntxiv lawm. Koj paub txog qhov no lawm los? Qhov ncau tsis yog ncau pem tiamsis yeeb vim cov laus muaj lub siab dawb thiab hlub txhua tus. Tiamsis tom qab thaum tas cov laus tiam ntawv lawm, cov hluas ci li muab txoj kev ncau txim ntawv ua ib qho sib cais kwv cais tij lawm, tsis raws li qhov cov laus ua tseg. Ntawm kev sib yuav los yeej zoo ib yam li thiab. Thaum peb huam vam coob tuaj ces txawm muaj tus take advantage to cheat the system. Thaum sawvdaws pom tias muaj tus ua li ces sawvdaws txawm xyaum ntxiv.
question is..... uacas hos (WHY is it) WRONG to yuav yuv own clan...I want to know the truth behind such nonsense rule? So far, no one has lay out the FACTS to back up such rule? Anyone?
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I'm sure they were more concerned with incest becoming a problem in Hmong society.
In any case, I find it hypocritical to call them "stupid" for believing what they believed. All races of people are built upon the pillars of ancestors. Even your own ideas had to come from somewhere. No American is ignorant enough to call their Fore Fathers idiots because they had no knowledge of modern science. Yet, here you are presenting the same illogical analogy.
Tell you what, go marry the same last name and bring shame on yourself and your family. I guarantee you will regret it. Of the very few people I know who have done this shameful act, NONE of them can show their faces in public anymore. In fact, they ended up getting divorced because it was too much for them. But the damage is done and they are too embarrassed to do anything near Hmong people; even their friends and family. Think about that.
Well, I guess we all know and understand your point, because we all have seen it ourselves, as Hmong people. Maybe I should clarify my question. I'm saying do you guys think its time to change or not? Please give your reasons. I have been discussing this issue with some elders and many see the time for change. What about you, the younger generations?
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TPT...why don;t you pose your questions in a new thread?
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sage...point taken, but if these "geniuses" were smart as you claimed....why allowed first cousins marriage?
The intellect of our ancestors is not in question here. They set parameters base on the ethics and cultural norms. Marrying cousins with DIFFERENT last names is within the parameters. However, I’m beginning to see that in the United States, this is less of an occurance.
question is..... uacas hos (WHY is it) WRONG to yuav yuv own clan...I want to know the truth behind such nonsense rule? So far, no one has lay out the FACTS to back up such rule? Anyone?
Are you really so naïve?
The same justification you have for marrying your own clan name can be used to justify marrying your sister, mother, brother, father, uncle, etc… So where does it stop? It’s unethical as stated by our ancestors. Furthermore, it’s not a cultural norm. Society is defined by laws and cultural norms; even if they pose no real threat. They still have ethical and moral implications. For instance, you can make a case for marrying your sister; even to the extent of providing scientific proof that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Yet, it will still be condemned by society. In fact, it’s illegal in many parts of the world, including the US in some way, shape or form.
There is no law that prevents you from marrying your own clan name. However, it is socially taboo in Hmong society. If this reason isn’t good enough for you, then what is? Does it need to be handed down from gods? People make rules as to what is culturally accepted or not. Same name clan marriages generally are not. Do a search on the Internet or ask around. I believe most people, regardless of race, have reservations about marrying someone with the same last name.
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i don't' care what science or what the world says. because every single day... new research comes out that refutes old research. i preach to my kids these two 'common sense' values...
1. not marry same last name
2. not marry 1st cousins
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I have been discussing this issue with some elders and many see the time for change.
Good to see them thinking about "change" and moving forward because the primitive reason of not being able to marry a stranger with the same last name is as good as the everyone came from Adam and Eve therefore all of us are blood related or minorities cannot marry white people because they are not as good or gays and lesbians are sinners in the eyes of many Christians' God primitive reasons ::).
There is really no good reason(s) for that belief. Some clans even go as far as not marrying certain other clans because it won't work. Some even believed that Hmong used to be able marry within the same last name but adapted to the Chinese ways of not being able to a long time ago. Funny thing is the Chinese have move away from that primitive belief but many Hmong still chose to follow it even though it came from the Chinese according to some.
As mentioned earlier, it's really up to you or the individual to decide as there's nothing wrong or illegal about two strangers with the same last name tying the knot. Therefore, if you don't feel right, don't do it. If you feel good about it, do it. Yes, it's that simple.
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It doesn't matter. Most Hmong are smart enough to understand same surname marriage is taboo. And we've made an example of the few strays who did it. But if you really feel that being Hmong is too restrictive, by all means do it. You'll learn very quickly what kind of life you've chosen :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
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The intellect of our ancestors is not in question here. They set parameters base on the ethics and cultural norms. Marrying cousins with DIFFERENT last names is within the parameters. However, I’m beginning to see that in the United States, this is less of an occurance.
Are you really so naïve?
The same justification you have for marrying your own clan name can be used to justify marrying your sister, mother, brother, father, uncle, etc… So where does it stop? It’s unethical as stated by our ancestors. Furthermore, it’s not a cultural norm. Society is defined by laws and cultural norms; even if they pose no real threat. They still have ethical and moral implications. For instance, you can make a case for marrying your sister; even to the extent of providing scientific proof that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Yet, it will still be condemned by society. In fact, it’s illegal in many parts of the world, including the US in some way, shape or form.
There is no law that prevents you from marrying your own clan name. However, it is socially taboo in Hmong society. If this reason isn’t good enough for you, then what is? Does it need to be handed down from gods? People make rules as to what is culturally accepted or not. Same name clan marriages generally are not. Do a search on the Internet or ask around. I believe most people, regardless of race, have reservations about marrying someone with the same last name.
I like how you people come up with all sort of "culture" ideology illustrations to counter your lack of proof to back up why marrying your own "CLAN" is morally wrong? I've read and heard the same arguments all the time....MOST are nothing but gibberish at best.
Until you have something "NEW" to convince me otherwise, you people are simply NOT thinking in the big scheme of things. We no longer live in a world run by "fairy tales stories or "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia" lawm....We live in a "SCIENTIFIC" world were we MUST question our values and culture if we are to advance ideologically and sociologically ....
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i don't' care what science or what the world says. because every single day... new research comes out that refutes old research. i preach to my kids these two 'common sense' values...
1. not marry same last name
2. not marry 1st cousins
AOZ...you can cross out the first value....ua tsaug. O0 O0
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I like how you people come up with all sort of "culture" ideology illustrations to counter your lack of proof to back up why marrying your own "CLAN" is morally wrong? I've read and heard the same arguments all the time....MOST are nothing but gibberish at best.
Then why do you follow the ideology of not marrying your sister's kids? You don't because it's embarrassing right? And it's socially unacceptable.
Until you have something "NEW" to convince me otherwise, you people are simply NOT thinking in the big scheme of things. We no longer live in a world run by "fairy tales stories or "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia" lawm....We live in a "SCIENTIFIC" world were we MUST question our values and culture if we are to advance ideologically and sociologically ....
Who told you cultural norms are dictated soley by science? There's nothing scientific about Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc... Yet, people celebrate these Holidays as if they're REAL. To them, it's real enough. They are culture and tradition... Not science.
If you're so beyond culture and tradition, then why bother asking any of us? Just go and do what you feel like doing. In fact, why bother with any rules at all that have no scientific backing? Go rob someone, it's not scientifically wrong to do that. Science doesn't say it's wrong to beat someone's face in or steal their identity.
This is not a question of science, it's a question or ethics, morals and cultural values.
Part of being Hmong is having a set of cultural and traditional parameters that set us apart from other ethnicities. The same can be argued of any other race, culture, ethnicity. Indians don't beef... There's nothing scientific about that. It's all cultural.
Science helps us in the way of teaching us about proper diet and getting proper exercise, etc... But it doesn't provide morals and ethics as they relate to cultural norms. The ethics of science is not to use it in a negative way. And even that's not scientific. It's a moral issue.
Trust me, if science was the sole reason for us getting married, few of us would qualify. Only the fittest, brightest people without defects would be allowed to marry.
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GS....
The things you listed are fairy tales of a people....so it's ok to believe in them....we already know why it existed....
BUT for what you and I seem to disagree is that hmoob can't differentiate fairy tales from real scientific truth...You see, those who based their values and culture with scientific reasons are ALWAYS ahead of those who relied on "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".
What I'm saying is that...there's NOTHING morally and scientifically WRONG for two people of the same clan to marry each other except first and second cousins. If it is WRONG as said then why are we allowed to marry others when scientifically, we're all came from one dad and one mom?
You see where i'm going?
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(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5057/5512102933_7013973acc_z.jpg)
Honey Siong
If she was in your Xyooj clan, not blood related but just ua ib pab (of the same clan), and she came on to you, your ass would give up your kwv tij in a flash and you'd book out of your hometown in a heart beat to be with that fine piece of mmmmm, mmmmmmmm lady. Hell, you'd give up your ethnicity. And if you didn't, you're lying or you're gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
That's a Men's Wearhouse GUARAN-DAMN-TEE
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4717575891846902&pid=1.7)
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Then why do you follow the ideology of not marrying your sister's kids? You don't because it's embarrassing right? And it's socially unacceptable.
Who told you cultural norms are dictated soley by science? There's nothing scientific about Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc... Yet, people celebrate these Holidays as if they're REAL. To them, it's real enough. They are culture and tradition... Not science.
If you're so beyond culture and tradition, then why bother asking any of us? Just go and do what you feel like doing. In fact, why bother with any rules at all that have no scientific backing? Go rob someone, it's not scientifically wrong to do that. Science doesn't say it's wrong to beat someone's face in or steal their identity.
This is not a question of science, it's a question or ethics, morals and cultural values.
Part of being Hmong is having a set of cultural and traditional parameters that set us apart from other ethnicities. The same can be argued of any other race, culture, ethnicity. Indians don't beef... There's nothing scientific about that. It's all cultural.
Science helps us in the way of teaching us about proper diet and getting proper exercise, etc... But it doesn't provide morals and ethics as they relate to cultural norms. The ethics of science is not to use it in a negative way. And even that's not scientific. It's a moral issue.
Trust me, if science was the sole reason for us getting married, few of us would qualify. Only the fittest, brightest people without defects would be allowed to marry.
Sage...what are you talking about? Lets stick to topic.... I hope you didn't think I was interested in INCEST, which I would be the first to condemn? However, my view is simple....as stated earlier, those who are not first or second cousins should be allowed to date and married within same clan.
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phu aws... if you are ok with your kids marrying other 'VUE' ppl.... and of course in your opinion... your 'vue' clan probably is the best clan out there that you [narcissist] want to keep it all in your 'vue' family clan [not same lineage]... then yes... do that. hehehe... no one is stopping you.
however, it's unethical to force your belief on those of us who are against it... not to mention even consider it a law... ::) .... how rude... just because everything inch of your muscle can't resist another of the same last name doesn't make it right for you to pursue that person... nor preach that it should be deemed a law. ::)
for all we know... this may very well someday be a genetic defect causing these situations. ;D
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GS....
The things you listed are fairy tales of a people....so it's ok to believe in them....we already know why it existed....
BUT for what you and I seem to disagree is that hmoob can't differentiate fairy tales from real scientific truth...You see, those who based their values and culture with scientific reasons are ALWAYS ahead of those who relied on "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".
What I'm saying is that...there's NOTHING morally and scientifically WRONG for two people of the same clan to marry each other except first and second cousins. If it is WRONG as said then why are we allowed to marry others when scientifically, we're all came from one dad and one mom?
You see where i'm going?
I see that the principle upon which you are arguing is flawed. So here it is.
PebHmoobUnited believes: People of the same last name should be allowed to marry, because there's nothing morally or scientifically wrong with it.
Morally, it's already been deemed immoral by our ancestors. This is not a science, it's a cultural choice based on who we are; Hmong. Like I said, Indians decided long ago they would not eat beef... It's a cultural choice.
Scientifically, where does it begin or end? How do you know who is related to you or not? And what's to stop them? There's no science that says your son can't marry your brother's daughter of the same last name. So what if they wanted to?... What then? You're going to make this rule: first cousins and second cousins can't marry BASED ON MORAL VALUES, not scientific values... WHICH SOMEONE WILL CHALLENGE AT SOME POINT IN TIME.
The principle of your argument contradicts itself. You want to avoid the ethics of the issue by insisting that science proves it's okay; but when confronted by its own problems, the science should be avoided in favor of morals. In other words, they don't work together like they're supposed to.
When you son decides to marry your brother's daughter (same last name), you'll be using the same ideology I present you now, and not science.
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You are mistaken... Every day we are confronted with beautiful men and women that we want. It doesn't mean we have a chance, nor does it mean we can just jump on them. If that were the case, then we would be like animals.
I have seen countless beautiful women from my clan. But it's okay, because I've also seen countless beautiful women from other clans. It's not a sea of one species. It's an ocean of fishes. You are thinking too small and it's distorting your perception.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5057/5512102933_7013973acc_z.jpg)
Honey Siong
If she was in your Xyooj clan, not blood related but just ua ib pab (of the same clan), and she came on to you, your ass would give up your kwv tij in a flash and you'd book out of your hometown in a heart beat to be with that fine piece of mmmmm, mmmmmmmm lady. Hell, you'd give up your ethnicity. And if you didn't, you're lying or you're gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
That's a Men's Wearhouse GUARAN-DAMN-TEE
(http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4717575891846902&pid=1.7)
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phu aws... if you are ok with your kids marrying other 'VUE' ppl.... and of course in your opinion... your 'vue' clan probably is the best clan out there that you [narcissist] want to keep it all in your 'vue' family clan [not same lineage]... then yes... do that. hehehe... no one is stopping you.
however, it's unethical to force your belief on those of us who are against it... not to mention even consider it a law... ::) .... how rude... just because everything inch of your muscle can't resist another of the same last name doesn't make it right for you to pursue that person... nor preach that it should be deemed a law. ::)
for all we know... this may very well someday be a genetic defect causing these situations. ;D
Trust me, I doubt other sane Vue people will agree to the same terms. Despite the testimony (or lack thereof) on here, I have NEVER heard any OG's or Hmong people, for that matter, approve of same last name marriage!
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phu aws... if you are ok with your kids marrying other 'VUE' ppl.... and of course in your opinion... your 'vue' clan probably is the best clan out there that you [narcissist] want to keep it all in your 'vue' family clan [not same lineage]... then yes... do that. hehehe... no one is stopping you.
however, it's unethical to force your belief on those of us who are against it... not to mention even consider it a law... ::) .... how rude... just because everything inch of your muscle can't resist another of the same last name doesn't make it right for you to pursue that person... nor preach that it should be deemed a law. ::)
for all we know... this may very well someday be a genetic defect causing these situations. ;D
You see....people zoo li nej pom ONLY txog nej's lub nose xwb no offesne...Nej nyob lub ntuj uas vajmeej tshaj plaws, yet nej tsis paub ask questions....t sis paub nug questions uacas peb hos tsis pub same clan marriage, etc. When we have debates as such, and whether it's right or wrong, it gives hope that we are a people of conscientious.
We have to CHANGE the way we look at "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".....they are from a different time period...They may have believe in such practice as taboo, wrong...inappr opriate, but as a people with the ability to think and reason, we MUST modified, changed, question our own cultural beliefs if we are to stay the course and survive.
Remember...cul tures yog man-made xwb...therefor e we can change it as we see fit! It's NOT carved in stone..K> ua tsaug.
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Trust me, I doubt other sane Vue people will agree to the same terms. Despite the testimony (or lack thereof) on here, I have NEVER heard any OG's or Hmong people, for that matter, approve of same last name marriage!
vim MOST are just as clueless as some of nej uas tsis paub question why hos wrong?
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vim MOST are just as clueless as some of nej uas tsis paub question why hos wrong?
Who's clueless when all you've presented is a false ideology that you yourself can't follow to the "T."
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Who's clueless when all you've presented is a false ideology that you yourself can't follow to the "T."
I'm presenting an "IDEA" for us to debate...i'm NOT enforcing anyone to jump on board...
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You see....people zoo li nej pom ONLY txog nej's lub nose xwb no offesne...Nej nyob lub ntuj uas vajmeej tshaj plaws, yet nej tsis paub ask questions....t sis paub nug questions uacas peb hos tsis pub same clan marriage, etc. When we have debates as such, and whether it's right or wrong, it gives hope that we are a people of conscientious.
We have to CHANGE the way we look at "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".....they are from a different time period...They may have believe in such practice as taboo, wrong...inappr opriate, but as a people with the ability to think and reason, we MUST modified, changed, question our own cultural beliefs if we are to stay the course and survive.
Remember...cul tures yog man-made xwb...therefor e we can change it as we see fit! It's NOT carved in stone..K> ua tsaug.
lols. ;D
what is there to reason? human instinct/logic or animal instinct/logic? where does it stop? the line has to be drawn somewhere. what about those who want to marry same sex or even those who want to marry their pets? will you fight for them as well? how about incest? will you speak out for them too?
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lols. ;D
what is there to reason? human instinct/logic or animal instinct/logic? where does it stop? the line has to be drawn somewhere. what about those who want to marry same sex or even those who want to marry their pets? will you fight for them as well? how about incest? will you speak out for them too?
EXACTLY!!!
At what point does this ideology stop or begin! You can use it to make an argument for ANYTHING! For example, it's morally and scientifically justifiable to beat up people who look at you wrong, so I'm in favor.... How can you disprove me?
With same last name marriage, how can you disprove that your son can't marry your own brother's daughter? Where's the justification against that? Where's the line when you follow this ideology? What's your reason? You can't do it that's all? Now, we've gone full circle again because you go back to arguing about ethics and cultural values; meanwhile, they throw the same ridiculous ideogolgy back at you. Round and round it goes. :idiot2:
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I'm presenting an "IDEA" for us to debate...i'm NOT enforcing anyone to jump on board...
You're making a mockery of our ancestors and their beliefs. Beliefs which we still hold today. Calling our ancestors and people "stupid" for not agree with your flawed ideology doesn't make your idea any more appealing.
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Morals are subjective without the concensus people. Science is meant to aid us in decisions, not dictate our every action.
When are are led to believe everything and anything we do is fine as long as we feel it's justifiably moral and scientifically okay, then our selfish interests become more importan than our integrity.
At that point, what does any cultural institution matter. This argument can be made against marriage... How about relationships? Man-made laws? Who needs them? Just roam the world and do whatever you please.
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GS...
i'm tired...cia wb tham los xaus li no xwb....i can't change a mind that can't be changed.... ua tsaug
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I'm sure they were more concerned with incest becoming a problem in Hmong society.
In any case, I find it hypocritical to call them "stupid" for believing what they believed. All races of people are built upon the pillars of ancestors. Even your own ideas had to come from somewhere. No American is ignorant enough to call their Fore Fathers idiots because they had no knowledge of modern science. Yet, here you are presenting the same illogical analogy.
Tell you what, go marry the same last name and bring shame on yourself and your family. I guarantee you will regret it. Of the very few people I know who have done this shameful act, NONE of them can show their faces in public anymore. In fact, they ended up getting divorced because it was too much for them. But the damage is done and they are too embarrassed to do anything near Hmong people; even their friends and family. Think about that.
In this case, why would you let the thoughts of other people bother you?
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You see....people zoo li nej pom ONLY txog nej's lub nose xwb no offesne...Nej nyob lub ntuj uas vajmeej tshaj plaws, yet nej tsis paub ask questions....t sis paub nug questions uacas peb hos tsis pub same clan marriage, etc. When we have debates as such, and whether it's right or wrong, it gives hope that we are a people of conscientious.
We have to CHANGE the way we look at "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".....they are from a different time period...They may have believe in such practice as taboo, wrong...inappr opriate, but as a people with the ability to think and reason, we MUST modified, changed, question our own cultural beliefs if we are to stay the course and survive.
Remember...cul tures yog man-made xwb...therefor e we can change it as we see fit! It's NOT carved in stone..K> ua tsaug.
I agree with cultures changing. It's not just in our culture but has been seen in other ones as well.
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I agree with cultures changing. It's not just in our culture but has been seen in other ones as well.
Yep, not too long ago, no one were allowed to marry whites but whites because it's "morally and ethically" wrong according the majority of white societies, gay marriage were deemed evil and and considered "morally and ethically" wrong according to those that are against it especially hardcore right wing Christians, ....I can go on and on about more BS primitive beliefs of the past in many cultures and societies but those with brain cells will understand my point.
In the Hmong society specifically, Hmong marrying Laotian or Mien or other Asian ethnic groups were deemed stupid from what I've observed while living in Loas. Here in the states, Hmong that married other races are also deemed stupid by some Hmorons (no different than the white morons or morons in any other group that still believe in their own BS primitive beliefs). Furthermore, even Hmong marrying Hmong is deemed stupid according to some Hmorons because the clans of the bride and groom don't click for some lame ass primitive reason a long long time ago.
Therefore, as you say, changes in culture cannot be halt. I see more and more mixed marriages (ethnic and/or race), I see more and more people accepting gay people and gay marriages, I see more and more Hmong married out of ethnic and race, and less and less Hmong care about things like a certain clan can't marry a certain clan, or one clan punishing another clan during wedding negotiation or any other bs primitive beliefs that happened a long time ago ...all due to the winds of change as it cannot be halt regardless of culture.
As that change continues to progress, I can see certain primitive belief and practices of the Hmong culture disappearing such as bride-head price (also adapted from the Chinese a long time ago like the no marriage within the same last name according to some), polygamy, blood cousins being allow to hook up, bride-napping, adults marrying kids, alcohol poisoning at weddings especially when it involves minors, and in this case, frowning upon strangers with the same last name tying the knot. Those changes have been slow but it is progressing non the less because more and more people are changing from it.
The wind of change has and will continue to affect every culture. As a result, the fat will continue to be trimmed and left behind as time goes and the good aspects of cultures will move forward.
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Fine, fine, fine.
Why don't all those who support same clan marriages try this tomorrow:
Show up to work wearing nothing but your underwear. Scientifically, you aren't hurting anybody right? Despite the fat guy sitting two cubicles to your right who claims that he's lost his appetite after seeing your skid marks, what is inappropriate about you in your unmentionables? After all, it's not against the Constitution, right? Who cares about the dress code policy in your company? They're just primitive and outdated. Their policy has no real value and the company culture needs to loosen up. ::)
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GS....
The things you listed are fairy tales of a people....so it's ok to believe in them....we already know why it existed....
BUT for what you and I seem to disagree is that hmoob can't differentiate fairy tales from real scientific truth...You see, those who based their values and culture with scientific reasons are ALWAYS ahead of those who relied on "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia".
What I'm saying is that...there's NOTHING morally and scientifically WRONG for two people of the same clan to marry each other except first and second cousins. If it is WRONG as said then why are we allowed to marry others when scientifically, we're all came from one dad and one mom?
You see where i'm going?
You were doing well with your arguments until you said "there is nothing morally and scientifically wrong...." They just pounced on you after that.
Morality is a social construct. Social constructs are based on the beliefs of the people that it applies to. Hmong people just happens to believe that marrying the same last name is wrong, therefor in our culture, it's morally wrong.
There are more important issues regarding our culture out there than this one anyways. Let's save our passion for those.
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You were doing well with your arguments until you said "there is nothing morally and scientifically wrong...." They just pounced on you after that.
Morality is a social construct. Social constructs are based on the beliefs of the people that it applies to. Hmong people just happens to believe that marrying the same last name is wrong, therefor in our culture, it's morally wrong.
There are more important issues regarding our culture out there than this one anyways. Let's save our passion for those.
O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
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Come on people. You are not helping. We are here to discuss about this Hmong culture thing through exchanging ideas and opinions. You can or can't agree, but you have the right to respond based on your thought. Personal attacks and named calls are simply too childish and immature, and all of us are old enough to know that. You guys sound worst than the OG. Fighting is not going to bring us any change for progress and development. You guys are smarter than that!!!
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Come on people. You are not helping. We are here to discuss about this Hmong culture thing through exchanging ideas and opinions. You can or can't agree, but you have the right to respond based on your thought. Personal attacks and named calls are simply too childish and immature, and all of us are old enough to know that. You guys sound worst than the OG. Fighting is not going to bring us any change for progress and development. You guys are smarter than that!!!
Exactly my point. We're here to share our opinions or debate our position. Personally attacking someone because you can't refute them is not welcomed.
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tl:dr maybe it's alrdy been said, but isnt there a folklore that talks of the flood of the world and the aftermath where the only ones left were a brother and sister, and they have to repopulate.... ....
but after all it's only a folklore n nothing more
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What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?
Just do it. I strongly encourage marrying one's sister is the best wife in the world. None to exist.
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Just do it. I strongly encourage marrying one's sister is the best wife in the world. None to exist.
Hmong have already come close to it. To those Hmorons, it's not ok to marry a stranger with the same last name that has zero biological connection but it's ok to marry a biological blood related family member. :idiot2:
And according to some, the same last name can't marry belief was adopted from the Chinese so it wasn't even a Hmong practice to begin with...
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What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?
First you should work on lifting the taboo for same name marriage in general....tha t'll be a stepping stone for same clan marriage.
Personally though I don't think same clan marriage should be attempted. Ntshe yuav ua rau yus niam thiab txiv poob ntsej poob muag xwb os.
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First you should work on lifting the taboo for same name marriage in general....tha t'll be a stepping stone for same clan marriage.
Personally though I don't think same clan marriage should be attempted. Ntshe yuav ua rau yus niam thiab txiv poob ntsej poob muag xwb os.
First you should work on lifting the taboo for same name marriage in general....tha t'll be a stepping stone for same clan marriage.
Personally though I don't think same clan marriage should be attempted. Ntshe yuav ua rau yus niam thiab txiv poob ntsej poob muag xwb os.
Why does it seem so hard for you guys to understand my question. I'm not or nobody here is suggesting to anybody to attempt same clan marriage. I'm simply asking your opinion about the issue to see if you want it change or not.
We all know that Hmong can't marry someone with the same last name whether it's blood related or not. However, we all know that Hmong can marry someone who is blood related but with different last name. Now this kind of practice is wrong and backward in today's society. Science has taught us that marrying someone with blood related is a concern of genetic problem. So since we know that our practice is wrong and backward, are we willing to change it?
Folks, we are not living in the mountain as a primitive society anymore. We are living in the most complex society and the most advanced nation on earth, and we don't want to change even though we know that our practice is wrong? If we can't accept the change to this little Hmong custom, how are we going to live with the society that will sooner or later legalize gay marriage? No, we are not talking about changing to marry your sister or anyone who is your immediate family member. We are talking about changing to marry someone your family is not biologically related to regardless of his/her last name.
You can't just simply go and marry someone with your last name at the moment, because society doesn't approve it. If you violate the norm, you will live in a shameful life as many of you have mentioned. We need to make the change, so people can do it with confidence and without being fear of losing their face. And yes, we can change for the better if we all come together. This is one important issue in Hmong society. How can you not see it?
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You can't just simply go and marry someone with your last name at the moment, because society doesn't approve it. If you violate the norm, you will live in a shameful life as many of you have mentioned. We need to make the change, so people can do it with confidence and without being fear of losing their face.
Sorry, that passage seems to apply to many of the weak minded people that would do things just to please others even complete strangers instead of doing what they feel is right for them. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong and more importantly illegal about two strangers with the same last name marrying each others. Those that want to carry on that primitive practice, suit yourself...I and others that feel the way I do definitely won't!
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Sorry, that passage seems to apply to many of the weak minded people that would do things just to please others even complete strangers instead of doing what they feel is right for them. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong and more importantly illegal about two strangers with the same last name marrying each others. Those that want to carry on that primitive practice, suit yourself...I and others that feel the way I do definitely won't!
I have had sex with another Vang brother. He's awesome. My mother almost killed me thought.
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Tubpojntxoog,
You are incorrect when you say that people from the same clan don't know each other. Perhaps the younger generation have no idea who their extended families are but ask any important elder in a clan and he'll know which subgroup belongs where. Without disclosing my clan, I once met a woman with the same clan name who asked which subgroup I belonged to. Right away she knew of my subgroup's leader even though I had only met her for the very first time. The problem is that nowadays the younger generation doesn't know their own history so they become strangers in their own clan. I suggest you learn more about your clan and the pertinent leaders of your clan's past. You will see that they are all connected.
Honestly, the only people opposed to our clan system (which makes us unique from other groups) are one or two things:
1. outsiders of their own clan
2. come from a bad clan
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Tubpojntxoog,
You are incorrect when you say that people from the same clan don't know each other. Perhaps the younger generation have no idea who their extended families are but ask any important elder in a clan and he'll know which subgroup belongs where. Without disclosing my clan, I once met a woman with the same clan name who asked which subgroup I belonged to. Right away she knew of my subgroup's leader even though I had only met her for the very first time. The problem is that nowadays the younger generation doesn't know their own history so they become strangers in their own clan. I suggest you learn more about your clan and the pertinent leaders of your clan's past. You will see that they are all connected.
Honestly, the only people opposed to our clan system (which makes us unique from other groups) are one or two things:
1. outsiders of their own clan
2. come from a bad clan
I'll add that those people are ignorant and self-serving.
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As much as this is viewed as old fashioned and backwards, I don't think it will ever go away. Just like how a white family that has been Protestant for many, many generations, in the 21st Century, will still gossip and chatter if one of them marries a Catholic or Baptist. It's a misconception that white-European people are modernized, secular people who doesn't care about family name, "caj ces", etc., but they do. Italian dating another Italian, the families will still want to know what part of Italy their family comes from.
After all this time of modernizing, white people still do this. I see us doing this a millenium down the road.
Is it good or bad? I don't know if it's good for the sake of humanity, but I can honestly say I'm not sure if it's a bad thing, either.
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Tubpojntxoog,
You are incorrect when you say that people from the same clan don't know each other. Perhaps the younger generation have no idea who their extended families are but ask any important elder in a clan and he'll know which subgroup belongs where. Without disclosing my clan, I once met a woman with the same clan name who asked which subgroup I belonged to. Right away she knew of my subgroup's leader even though I had only met her for the very first time. The problem is that nowadays the younger generation doesn't know their own history so they become strangers in their own clan. I suggest you learn more about your clan and the pertinent leaders of your clan's past. You will see that they are all connected.
Honestly, the only people opposed to our clan system (which makes us unique from other groups) are one or two things:
1. outsiders of their own clan
2. come from a bad clan
I don't know how you draw the line that I'm incorrect when I never said that same clan people do not know each other. Do I have to draw the line when I mean "biologically unrelated"? To me, anyone who is not from my great great grandfather that came from China to Laos five generations ago is a biologically unrelated. Sure, this is not a reasonable definition for generally acceptance when speaking of marrying the same clan. We Hmong will have to define what is and is not acceptable and who are to include and exclude if we agree to make the change.
Maybe it's a shock to you when you learned that someone in your clan whom you don't know can recognize your clan leader, cousins, uncles, and sometimes even your dad. I grew up in that kind of world, so it is normal to me--and I know the reason to that. If we trace back in time, then we were all related at some point--not just Hmong but all human beings on earth.
I'm not sure what you mean by "subgroup", but I guess you are talking about what we Hmong called "thooj dab koom qhua", especially " txhim, or nyuj dab". I can tell you that if we are talking about this, then I have several thousand people who are related to me this way. And these people and me are anywhere from one to fifteen generations apart. I'm sure it is the same thing for you.
Believe_N_Me, I know you don't like to change when it comes to this issue. But don't you recognize that we are living in the 21st century now? If we keep practicing these kinds of primitive cultures, what would other ethnic groups think of us? The reason our sons and daughters do not want to speak Hmong and learn any of our culture anymore is because they see our culture as the "lower culture" that is not up to the modern way of life. We have to change in order to survive. This issue is one of the many issues in our society that needs to be changed. Remember, we only change for the better, not the worse.
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As much as this is viewed as old fashioned and backwards, I don't think it will ever go away. Just like how a white family that has been Protestant for many, many generations, in the 21st Century, will still gossip and chatter if one of them marries a Catholic or Baptist. It's a misconception that white-European people are modernized, secular people who doesn't care about family name, "caj ces", etc., but they do. Italian dating another Italian, the families will still want to know what part of Italy their family comes from.
After all this time of modernizing, white people still do this. I see us doing this a millenium down the road.
Is it good or bad? I don't know if it's good for the sake of humanity, but I can honestly say I'm not sure if it's a bad thing, either.
I guess what you mentioned above is something more of choosing a family to marry. We Hmong have a proverb saying that "noj nceb yuav tsum taug cav, yuav nyab yuav tsum xaiv neej xaiv tsav". If I understand you correctly, then this is a different topic, which is a good thing though.
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I don't know how you draw the line that I'm incorrect when I never said that same clan people do not know each other. Do I have to draw the line when I mean "biologically unrelated"? To me, anyone who is not from my great great grandfather that came from China to Laos five generations ago is a biologically unrelated. Sure, this is not a reasonable definition for generally acceptance when speaking of marrying the same clan. We Hmong will have to define what is and is not acceptable and who are to include and exclude if we agree to make the change.
Maybe it's a shock to you when you learned that someone in your clan whom you don't know can recognize your clan leader, cousins, uncles, and sometimes even your dad. I grew up in that kind of world, so it is normal to me--and I know the reason to that. If we trace back in time, then we were all related at some point--not just Hmong but all human beings on earth.
I'm not sure what you mean by "subgroup", but I guess you are talking about what we Hmong called "thooj dab koom qhua", especially " txhim, or nyuj dab". I can tell you that if we are talking about this, then I have several thousand people who are related to me this way. And these people and me are anywhere from one to fifteen generations apart. I'm sure it is the same thing for you.
Believe_N_Me, I know you don't like to change when it comes to this issue. But don't you recognize that we are living in the 21st century now? If we keep practicing these kinds of primitive cultures, what would other ethnic groups think of us? The reason our sons and daughters do not want to speak Hmong and learn any of our culture anymore is because they see our culture as the "lower culture" that is not up to the modern way of life. We have to change in order to survive. This issue is one of the many issues in our society that needs to be changed. Remember, we only change for the better, not the worse.
There lies your problem. You care too much what others think of your own ethnic group rather than have the spine to stand proud and accept that it's a social taboo in our culture. Why do you allow another culture to define what is right or isn't right in YOUR culture? :idiot2: Does a horse tell a cow how to live? :idiot2: There isn't anything wrong with this practice of ours. None of you have presented a compelling reason to fix something that isn't broken.
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There lies your problem. You care too much what others think of your own ethnic group rather than have the spine to stand proud and accept that it's a social taboo in our culture. Why do you allow another culture to define what is right or isn't right in YOUR culture? :idiot2: Does a horse tell a cow how to live? :idiot2: There isn't anything wrong with this practice of ours. None of you have presented a compelling reason to fix something that isn't broken.
How can you not see that it's wrong? It's wrong when you let your son marries your sister's daughter or vice versa. It's wrong when you don't want your children to marry someone who simply carries your last name but are thousands year old generation from you. It's wrong when you living in the year of 2013 but practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful. It's wrong when your children don't want know and be associated with it anymore. It's wrong when you do the opposite of what can be proven right in the lab. It's wrong when you know you are wrong but don't change it. For all of these, I don't think anyone needs to present any compelling reason to fix it.
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For all of those who have deemed Hmong culture, practices, beliefs etc., as "practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful.", can you all please explicitly tell me what makes Hmong/Hmong culture primitive, backwards, or shameful or whatever adjectives you want to inject? I for one want to know, once and for all.
(Btw --- most if not all of the time, what is the norm is that individuals using these expletives, really are just one of these, or a combination, and in some cases all of them. That is ignorant, clueless, baseless, bias, uncultured -- Western and Eastern, and most of all uneducated - intellectually . And just because you may have a degree does not automatically mean you are intelligent, or educated.)
But please do prove me wrong.
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How can you not see that it's wrong? It's wrong when you let your son marries your sister's daughter or vice versa. It's wrong when you don't want your children to marry someone who simply carries your last name but are thousands year old generation from you. It's wrong when you living in the year of 2013 but practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful. It's wrong when your children don't want know and be associated with it anymore. It's wrong when you do the opposite of what can be proven right in the lab. It's wrong when you know you are wrong but don't change it. For all of these, I don't think anyone needs to present any compelling reason to fix it.
Many aspects of the Hmong culture is good but the bad aspects such as 'bride-nap, men being allowed to marry multiple wives or date other women even after marriage, trading money for human, grandpa marrying underage kids, alcohol poisoning of minors at weddings, blood family members marrying each other, non-blood related strangers with the same last name can't date/marry, ...gotta go. As I've said, those that want to continue practicing those primitive practices, suit yourself but I'm not.
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Yep, not too long ago, no one were allowed to marry whites but whites because it's "morally and ethically" wrong according the majority of white societies, gay marriage were deemed evil and and considered "morally and ethically" wrong according to those that are against it especially hardcore right wing Christians, ....I can go on and on about more BS primitive beliefs of the past in many cultures and societies but those with brain cells will understand my point.
In the Hmong society specifically, Hmong marrying Laotian or Mien or other Asian ethnic groups were deemed stupid from what I've observed while living in Loas. Here in the states, Hmong that married other races are also deemed stupid by some Hmorons (no different than the white morons or morons in any other group that still believe in their own BS primitive beliefs). Furthermore, even Hmong marrying Hmong is deemed stupid according to some Hmorons because the clans of the bride and groom don't click for some lame ass primitive reason a long long time ago.
Therefore, as you say, changes in culture cannot be halt. I see more and more mixed marriages (ethnic and/or race), I see more and more people accepting gay people and gay marriages, I see more and more Hmong married out of ethnic and race, and less and less Hmong care about things like a certain clan can't marry a certain clan, or one clan punishing another clan during wedding negotiation or any other bs primitive beliefs that happened a long time ago ...all due to the winds of change as it cannot be halt regardless of culture.
As that change continues to progress, I can see certain primitive belief and practices of the Hmong culture disappearing such as bride-head price (also adapted from the Chinese a long time ago like the no marriage within the same last name according to some), polygamy, blood cousins being allow to hook up, bride-napping, adults marrying kids, alcohol poisoning at weddings especially when it involves minors, and in this case, frowning upon strangers with the same last name tying the knot. Those changes have been slow but it is progressing non the less because more and more people are changing from it.
The wind of change has and will continue to affect every culture. As a result, the fat will continue to be trimmed and left behind as time goes and the good aspects of cultures will move forward.
well said.
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Many aspects of the Hmong culture is good but the bad aspects such as 'bride-nap, men being allowed to marry multiple wives or date other women even after marriage, trading money for human, grandpa marrying underage kids, alcohol poisoning of minors at weddings, blood family members marrying each other, non-blood related strangers with the same last name can't date/marry, ...gotta go. As I've said, those that want to continue practicing those primitive practices, suit yourself but I'm not.
Count me on your side when it comes to these issues. I can understand why OG don't want change, but I can't understand why those who have college education don't want change. I can't wait to the day I see these negative aspects of our culture gone.
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How can you not see that it's wrong? It's wrong when you let your son marries your sister's daughter or vice versa. It's wrong when you don't want your children to marry someone who simply carries your last name but are thousands year old generation from you. It's wrong when you living in the year of 2013 but practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful. It's wrong when your children don't want know and be associated with it anymore. It's wrong when you do the opposite of what can be proven right in the lab. It's wrong when you know you are wrong but don't change it. For all of these, I don't think anyone needs to present any compelling reason to fix it.
I knew you would bring this up and am fully prepared to state that such point is irrelevant to the topic you proposed, which is marrying same clan name. So let's just stick with that.
There is nothing primitive about this age-old practice in our culture. It is simply a social taboo that is observed by the majority of Hmong people. I don't know why you have difficulties understanding that. If you want to step outside social norm then that's your prerogative but be prepared to face criticism. This is the same as people who look for ways to be a non-conformist. They may not be doing anything illegal but since it's not standard practice they will get talked about.
I don't know why you continue to argue tooth and nail as if you want something written as law to stop this. It's as silly as trying to write a law that will allow American bride's to wear a purple wedding dress. :idiot2: Traditionally, brides wear a white wedding gown but who is to say that a bride can't wear cheetah print if that's what she wants? She will probably get talked about but must we debate and establish a law about this? ::)
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Count me on your side when it comes to these issues. I can understand why OG don't want change, but I can't understand why those who have college education don't want change. I can't wait to the day I see these negative aspects of our culture gone.
Because college-educated people actually realize that this isn't a concern. ::) :2funny: There's nothing broken with this practice and you haven't made a compelling case against it other then bringing up an irrelevant point. I suppose you also think eating cats or dogs should be illegal for people living in other countries that happen to consider them both a delicacy. :2funny:
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For all of those who have deemed Hmong culture, practices, beliefs etc., as "practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful.", can you all please explicitly tell me what makes Hmong/Hmong culture primitive, backwards, or shameful or whatever adjectives you want to inject? I for one want to know, once and for all.
(Btw --- most if not all of the time, what is the norm is that individuals using these expletives, really are just one of these, or a combination, and in some cases all of them. That is ignorant, clueless, baseless, bias, uncultured -- Western and Eastern, and most of all uneducated - intellectually . And just because you may have a degree does not automatically mean you are intelligent, or educated.)
It all depends on the culture you are talking about. No, not all Hmong cultures are old fashion, backward, primitive belief, and shameful. Many of our cultures are some of the most beautiful cultures on earth. But at the same time, some are ugly if we agree on the same definition of these terms above.
You are wrong if you simply regard individuals who don't view Hmong culture the way you do as " ignorant, clueless, baseless, bias, uncultured, and unintellectual . Many Hmong who hold master degrees and Ph.Ds deem at least some of our cultures are too primitive. Btw, have you heard Hmong experts on Hmong culture said "Hmoob kev cai yog dev npua cai". The saying is an indication that even the experts know that there is something wrong with some of our cultures. IMO, I think our cultures are not the "organized cultures" yet. You right, holding a degree does make you right on every issue.
But please do prove me wrong.
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I knew you would bring this up and am fully prepared to state that such point is irrelevant to the topic you proposed, which is marrying same clan name. So let's just stick with that.
There is nothing primitive about this age-old practice in our culture. It is simply a social taboo that is observed by the majority of Hmong people. I don't know why you have difficulties understanding that. If you want to step outside social norm then that's your prerogative but be prepared to face criticism. This is the same as people who look for ways to be a non-conformist. They may not be doing anything illegal but since it's not standard practice they will get talked about.
I don't know why you continue to argue tooth and nail as if you want something written as law to stop this. It's as silly as trying to write a law that will allow American bride's to wear a purple wedding dress. :idiot2: Traditionally, brides wear a white wedding gown but who is to say that a bride can't wear cheetah print if that's what she wants? She will probably get talked about but must we debate and establish a law about this? ::)
No, you don't, and that's exactly what you like; therefore, you are against the change. If you can point to me a single modern society on earth that practice this kind of backward belief, than I will change my position. This kind of culture is found among indigenous people. This is America and the year 2013. In addiction, You keep repeating that I have not have any compelling arguments regarding this topic, but the same thing can be said to you as well. On the other hand, you keep suggesting to people who favor the change to go ahead and violate the norm and live with the consequences. This clearly show your weak ability to judge what's acceptable and what's not in society.
I can argue with you in detail about eating cat and dog and the color of the wedding dress, but these are different topics, another indication that your judgement is as weak as the way you related marrying same clan to these topics.
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No, you don't, and that's exactly what you like; therefore, you are against the change. If you can point to me a single modern society on earth that practice this kind of backward belief, than I will change my position. This kind of culture is found among indigenous people. This is America and the year 2013. In addiction, You keep repeating that I have not have any compelling arguments regarding this topic, but the same thing can be said to you as well. On the other hand, you keep suggesting to people who favor the change to go ahead and violate the norm and live with the consequences. This clearly show your weak ability to judge what's acceptable and what's not in society.
I can argue with you in detail about eating cat and dog and the color of the wedding dress, but these are different topics, another indication that your judgement is as weak as the way you related marrying same clan to these topics.
Your case is weak because you can't form a compelling argument as to why this practice holds back the progress of Hmong. You state that it is primitive so illustrate how it is. Comparing it to another culture is invalid because every culture has their own nuances.
The problem with many of you is that you're on a mission to be white or whatever and if something isn't white then it's backwards and primitive. It's funny that while you think this social taboo is primitive, a white person wouldn't even think the same.
Truthfully, this subject is of no concern but since you bring it up we're just responding.
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Your case is weak because you can't form a compelling argument as to why this practice holds back the progress of Hmong. You state that it is primitive so illustrate how it is. Comparing it to another culture is invalid because every culture has their own nuances.
The problem with many of you is that you're on a mission to be white or whatever and if something isn't white then it's backwards and primitive. It's funny that while you think this social taboo is primitive, a white person wouldn't even think the same.
Truthfully, this subject is of no concern but since you bring it up we're just responding.
You know that marrying same last name is a social taboo, but who have difficulty to understand that social taboo is established by societ. Societ is established by the people. Therefore, if societ is progressed to a higher level, social taboos that don't make sense, such as this subject, should be dropped. Yes, this matter might make sense way back then when Hmong lived in the mountain as scattered, isolated, and small villages, but it doesn't make sense in this modern life here in America. Therefore, it's up to the people to lift it. Changing on the personal level doe not lift the taboo. On the other hand, this taboo confuses Hmong that since they can't marry someone with the same last name, then it's right to marry someone with blood related but different last name.
You are always wrong with your judgment, so stop judging and start listening. No, we are not here on a mission to be white. We are here on a mission to modify our culture to be an "organized culture", and that's it. Therefor, it's not about you and me that can do it. It's about everyone getting involved to get it done.
I do respect your perspective, so don't piss off. Yes, we are here to respond to each other, and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess all I can say to you is that if you want to stay with the same perch, it seems to be your only option, then that's ok. I have wing, and I have multiple perches, so I will fly to perch on the one that suits my current life. After all, we will just have to cast our vote some day. I'm tired of talking to people who don't see the value of change, so I will just leave it here.
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time for a story... this is something that is recent.
two male cousins from same clan... both have same grand father... one lived in fresno and other in north carolina.
one day fresno's son met NC's daughter online. and the two kids fell in love. boy gets girl pregnant and takes girl home to his family where she meets her new fatherNlaw.
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time for a story... this is something that is recent.
two male cousins from same clan... both have same grand father... one lived in fresno and other in north carolina.
one day fresno's son met NC's daughter online. and the two kids fell in love. boy gets girl pregnant and takes girl home to his family where she meets her new fatherNlaw.
Out of curiosity, how is this related to the debate?
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Out of curiosity, how is this related to the debate?
how is this not related to debate?
so many kids these day do not even know who their relatives are. when they meet at hmong parties... they dib eachother like hluas nkauj hluas nruag because they think they are soooo westernize and don't care for culture.
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I have an aunt and uncle, first cousins, different last names who married each other and had 10 children. The children all have mutant deformities and health problems.
Just thought I share.
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how is this not related to debate?
so many kids these day do not even know who their relatives are. when they meet at hmong parties... they dib eachother like hluas nkauj hluas nruag because they think they are soooo westernize and don't care for culture.
The topic is about the taboo marriage within same clan.
Against same clan marriage: the boy and girl shouldn't even be dating
For same clan marriage: the boy and girl shouldn't be dating if they are closely related
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I have an aunt and uncle, first cousins, different last names who married each other and had 10 children. The children all have mutant deformities and health problems.
Just thought I share.
Yep. Which why it makes zero sense that Hmorons accept blood related family members marrying but not non-blood related strangers with the same last name marrying.
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I have an aunt and uncle, first cousins, different last names who married each other and had 10 children. The children all have mutant deformities and health problems.
Just thought I share.
coincidentally, I have a cousin who has the same last name as his wife, they married, had 4 children, and are financially successful and happy. all of the children are healthy, spiritually grounded, and are intelligent.
then I have another cousin who was intelligent, ambitious, and outgoing, - who was forbidden to marry his same last name girlfriend and ended up committing suicide.
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coincidentally, I have a cousin who has the same last name as his wife, they married, had 4 children, and are financially successful and happy. all of the children are healthy, spiritually grounded, and are intelligent.
then I have another cousin who was intelligent, ambitious, and outgoing, - who was forbidden to marry his same last name girlfriend and ended up committing suicide.
Damn, sorry to hear about that unneccessary tradedy. He should have just man up and live his life...
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You know that marrying same last name is a social taboo, but who have difficulty to understand that social taboo is established by societ. Societ is established by the people. Therefore, if societ is progressed to a higher level, social taboos that don't make sense, such as this subject, should be dropped. Yes, this matter might make sense way back then when Hmong lived in the mountain as scattered, isolated, and small villages, but it doesn't make sense in this modern life here in America. Therefore, it's up to the people to lift it. Changing on the personal level doe not lift the taboo. On the other hand, this taboo confuses Hmong that since they can't marry someone with the same last name, then it's right to marry someone with blood related but different last name.
You are always wrong with your judgment, so stop judging and start listening. No, we are not here on a mission to be white. We are here on a mission to modify our culture to be an "organized culture", and that's it. Therefor, it's not about you and me that can do it. It's about everyone getting involved to get it done.
I do respect your perspective, so don't piss off. Yes, we are here to respond to each other, and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess all I can say to you is that if you want to stay with the same perch, it seems to be your only option, then that's ok. I have wing, and I have multiple perches, so I will fly to perch on the one that suits my current life. After all, we will just have to cast our vote some day. I'm tired of talking to people who don't see the value of change, so I will just leave it here.
But you're not listening.
What I'm saying is that this issue you bring up is of very little concern to the Hmong. The majority of Hmong people are fine dating outside their own clan name. They don't have problems finding a mate from a different clan. Furthermore, because our social structure is a clan system it makes perfect sense not to court within your own clan name. It's a non-issue.
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And since there are so many women in this world I suggest we legalize polygamy again. Would you agree with me?
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Not a good idea, so many people in the world why fall in love with someone whom could be your cousins. Don't see anything wrong with it but there probably are stories of why we can't do it.
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And since there are so many women in this world I suggest we legalize polygamy again. Would you agree with me?
Good luck finding enough women willing to participate in that caveman practice. The Hmong women here are empowered and know they can get real help when needed, not like the oppressed ones in Laos and other oppressed societies. I've posted that question a couple of times to women that claimed to be super traditional and in support of all Hmong practice and customs of the Hmong culture and all you hear is crickets ;D. Therefore, as I've said, good luck finding enough women to be apart of polygamy. Not gonna happen in this great land imo.
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Quote from: CheejSiav on May 15, 2013, 11:52:20 AM
Good luck finding enough women willing to participate in that caveman practice. The Hmong women here are empowered and know they can get real help when needed, not like the oppressed ones in Laos and other oppressed societies. I've posted that question a couple of times to women that claimed to be super traditional and in support of all Hmong practice and customs of the Hmong culture and all you hear is crickets . Therefore, as I've said, good luck finding enough women to be apart of polygamy. Not gonna happen in this great land imo.
You know I actually know a few women that do want to be a second wife but they are mostly widows. If I become president then I will legalize it for the better reasons. There are just too much people just trying too hard looking for the right one and some guys does have all the attributes to handle a few women.
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You know I actually know a few women that do want to be a second wife but they are mostly widows.
Case closed. You just summed up your entire argument there. The only ones wanting to be in a polygamous relationship are those that have nothing else going for them.
If I become president then I will legalize it for the better reasons.
This isn't the dark ages where more children and wives means more hands at working. A large polygamous family is actually at a disadvantage. Modern institutions such as law enforcement, legal, public education, social security, employment, bank financing, makes a small monogamous family on equal grounds with a large family. You don't have more power as a large, polygamous family. Cramming 20 people into a 4 bedroom, two-story home is surviving, not thriving. I don't know what they go through. You don't know what they go through. But if you were to interview teens and young adults in 2013 who come from a polygamous family, I highly doubt a single person would say "Yes, it's great and other people should try it!"
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Case closed. You just summed up your entire argument there. The only ones wanting to be in a polygamous relationship are those that have nothing else going for them.
This isn't the dark ages where more children and wives means more hands at working. A large polygamous family is actually at a disadvantage. Modern institutions such as law enforcement, legal, public education, social security, employment, bank financing, makes a small monogamous family on equal grounds with a large family. You don't have more power as a large, polygamous family. Cramming 20 people into a 4 bedroom, two-story home is surviving, not thriving. I don't know what they go through. You don't know what they go through. But if you were to interview teens and young adults in 2013 who come from a polygamous family, I highly doubt a single person would say "Yes, it's great and other people should try it!"
Yes I agree that it's bad but on the other hand additional income means thriving to the world. But I understand that kids will grow up not having a father figure because it will be hard trying to just watch over 4
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Yes I agree that it's bad but on the other hand additional income means thriving to the world.
Additional children (additional income) doesn't make a family thrive because that extra mouth means more food is required, the electricity and water bill rises, and it all evens out in the end. But like I said, what happens now is you have a Hmong family packed like sardines into a 2,000sq.ft house.
If this were the case, Hmong, Laotian, Mexican, and Amish people would be better off. Instead, large polygamous families experience the pathological social issues of low education, poverty, poor health, emotional detachment from parents, crimes, drugs, unplanned pregnancy, and a lifetime of broken intimate relationships.
Polygamy serves ZERO purpose in modern society. I could care less if it was legal or not. The point is, children brought up in a monogamous relationship starts out tens of steps ahead of a child raise in polygamy.
When was the last time you saw a polygamous family and the majority of the children had no issues with (promiscuous) sex, drugs, crime, low education, low employment, etc.? None.
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Additional children (additional income) doesn't make a family thrive because that extra mouth means more food is required, the electricity and water bill rises, and it all evens out in the end. But like I said, what happens now is you have a Hmong family packed like sardines into a 2,000sq.ft house.
If this were the case, Hmong, Laotian, Mexican, and Amish people would be better off. Instead, large polygamous families experience the pathological social issues of low education, poverty, poor health, emotional detachment from parents, crimes, drugs, unplanned pregnancy, and a lifetime of broken intimate relationships.
Polygamy serves ZERO purpose in modern society. I could care less if it was legal or not. The point is, children brought up in a monogamous relationship starts out tens of steps ahead of a child raise in polygamy.
When was the last time you saw a polygamous family and the majority of the children had no issues with (promiscuous) sex, drugs, crime, low education, low employment, etc.? None.
I understand your point because I have uncles that still practice polygamy and I have seen how their kid grew up like. monogamy does have more stability to the family relations
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What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?
Kuv thib nawb. Kuv yuav thaam le kuv kev xaav. Kuv thaam rua sau rooj, yaam yog los ho yuav ho yaam tsiyog los ho muab pobtseg.
Kuv xaav mas,
Peb tsitxhob ntseeg2 tej laug, tej pojkoob yawmtxiv tej lug. Peb nyob lub ntuj tshab lawm, peb yuav tau pauv, hloov moog rua qhov zoo.
Yog coj le cov laug coj es txiv tsipub yug xeem rov sibyuav. Lossis 2cousins tsipub sibyuav. Cov laug puab ua neej lug tau ntau tam xyoo. Yog uale puab zeej zoo dlua ces peb Moob tub vaam meej hab muaj nom, muajtswv hab muaj lajaav teb chaws lawm. Ntau tam lug lawm, peb Moob tub tsizoo dlaab tsi. Peb poob aav luj rua Suav. Peb poob teb poobchaw, txhajle tau tswv tuaj txug lub tebchaw thib3. Peb yuav tsum tig lug saib txhua haiv neeg huv nplajteb nuav ua neej.
Lub xeem tsi tseemceeb rua luas. Qhov tseem ceeb ces yog haiv tuabneeg ntawm xwb. Haiv tuab neeg txawj sib hlub, sibpaab, txawj ntse hab zoonkauj zoonraug.
Mej yeej paub tas, cov zoonkauj apply txug twg los tau haujlwm ua. Tub zoonraug, taug hauj lwm ua. Tub/ntxhais txawj ntse, tau ua nom, ua tswv.
Yog koj yug tau ib tug tub, kawm tau ntawv zoo heev, txawj/ntse hab zoonraug heev. Kuj cas nwg yuav koj ib tug ntxhais. Koj txhajle muaj noob zoonkauj, zoonraug, noob txawj/ntse.
Yog koj yug tau ib tug ntxhais, kawm tau ntawv zoo heev, hab zoonkauj heev, koj ca yuav koj tug tub lossis cas yuav koj cov kwvtij le tub. Koj txhajle muaj noob txawj/ntse hab tej tubki txhajle zoonkauj zoonraug.
Qhov tseeb, tej kwvtij, tijtub kwvtub, yeej muaj kev sibhlub tshaaj le tug kws kem lawm. Yug cov noob txhajle tsi poob rua luas. Koj yug muaj ib tug tub zoonraug hab txawjntse heev tabsis, moog nrhav tau ibtug nyaab ruam lossis dlaabtuag, nwg cov mivnyuas yeej ruam hab dlaabtuag.
Tsitaagle, yog moog yuav tug saab nrau, tseem muajplaub muajntug, muajxaiv muajlug.
Txhua yaam kws cov laug has tas txhum cai. Moob yeej tsi muaj cai. Moob cov laug ib txwm has tas, "Moob cai ces yog Dlev Npua Cai" xwb. Yoglentawm, tej cai ntawm, tsi tseem ceeb dlaabtsi.
Txhua yaam kws cov laug hastas, txhum dlaab, lossis txhuam cai. Yeej tsi muaj cai kws yuav txhum. Hab yeej tsi txhum dlaab. Yog txhum tes yog txhum neej xwb.
Koj yuav tau ibtug quaspuj, koj tub muab nwg lub xeem lug hloov ua yug lub xeem. Qhov ntawm hos txawv le caag? Es koj tug tug moog yuav koj tug muam tug ntxhais ho txawv le caag? Same blood? LOL. Koj tijlaug tuag lawm es koj ho yuav namtij, ho txawv le caag?
Koj tug tub tsi yuav koj tijlaug tug ntxhais. Tabsis, koj tug tub yuav tau koj tug txivntxawm (uncle) tug ntxhais. Taug kawg. Ib lub xeem, yuav tau kawg.
Mej pistsawg leej pumzoo le kuv has?
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No, koj hais tsis yog lawm. Yog peb Hmoob ruam npaum koj hais, peb raug ciaj tsuj tau 4000 - 5000 xyoo, peb tsis muaj Hmoob nyob ntiajteb lawm. Kuv tsis tau hnov cov scholars agree haistias ib haiv neeg yuav ntse dua ib haiv. Neeg ces ntse ib yam thiab ruam ib yam nkaus xwb, vim neeg yog one species xwb. Qhov uas tej haiv neeg muaj kev txawj ntse siab dua mas yog los ntawm txoj kev kawm thiab kev ua neej hloov mus raws txoj kev khawv noj khawv haus ntawd.
Qhov uas cov laus lawv tsis txwv kev sib yuav ntawm first cousin mas yog vim lawv tsis paub, tsis yog tias lawv ruam. Lawv tsis paub npaum tus tsim Hmoob paub. Tus tsim Hmoob (neeg) mas nws paub zoo txog cov genetic problem, tiamsis yog nws yuav muab qhia rau neeg ces yuav nyuaj heev rau neeg to taub, vim lub caij ntawv neeg lub hlwb tseem primitive heev (zoo li Niam no neeg piav txog quantum physics rau chimpanzee xwb). Yog li ntawd nws thiaj tsim cov xeem rau Hmoob thiab muab ua ib qho kev ntseeg rau Hmoob thiaj yoojyim rau Hmoob.
Pivtxwv li ntawm peb cov txim. Qhov cov 5 txig ncau mus uas 7 txim mas twb yog thaum ub cov laus lawv ua Nyuj Dab ces muaj 5 tug tub ces lawv rau 5 txig. Tiamsis Tom qab ntawv cov ntxhais ho mus yuav txiv ces thaum lawv ua nyuaj dab ces 2 txwg ntxhais vauv tuaj koom. Thaum cov laus pom tias yog yuav rau 5 txig rau cov tub xwb ces cov ntxhais vauv yuav tu siab rau Niam txiv. Yog li ntawd, lawv thiaj nug tus txiv muam coj dab tias ua li rau 2 txig rau ob khub ntxhais vauv thiab puas tau? Tus coj dab thiaj haistias ua tau kawg, ces lawv txawm ua 2 txig ntxiv. Yog li cov txim thiaj ncau ntxiv lawm. Koj paub txog qhov no lawm los? Qhov ncau tsis yog ncau pem tiamsis yeeb vim cov laus muaj lub siab dawb thiab hlub txhua tus. Tiamsis tom qab thaum tas cov laus tiam ntawv lawm, cov hluas ci li muab txoj kev ncau txim ntawv ua ib qho sib cais kwv cais tij lawm, tsis raws li qhov cov laus ua tseg. Ntawm kev sib yuav los yeej zoo ib yam li thiab. Thaum peb huam vam coob tuaj ces txawm muaj tus take advantage to cheat the system. Thaum sawvdaws pom tias muaj tus ua li ces sawvdaws txawm xyaum ntxiv.
Tunpojntxoog koj hais tsis yog lawm. Peb Hmoob united thiaj li hais yog rau ib nrab. Qhov 5 txig 7 txig koj hais ko kuv tsis tau hnov dua li thiab tsis thwj lawm. Tos Hmoob muaj 5 txig 7 txig no mas yog vim yav nram ntej suav caij tsuj Hmoob thiab pheej khawb khawb Hmoob ntxa Hmoob thiaj li nrhiav tswv yim los kom suav thiaj li tsis paub tias Hmoob ntxa yog Hmoob ntxa tiag. Hmoob thiaj li qog suav los lawm. Thiab koj xav tias Hmoob ntse no Hmoob yeej npub kawg rau qees qho thiab yog Hmoob ntxov paub txog cajces thiab roj ntsha mas Hmoob yeej tsis yuam kom neejtsa rov yuav neejtsa.
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My uncle told me the problem with same last name marriage is during funerals. This is with the old tradition only. I guess if you go to church you can go all out and do whatever since the traditional funeral rules do not apply. Unless there's a special rule for Hmong church pple because I do not believe there's a rule against marrying within the same last name as long as you're not related(ie: smith and smith). Maybe someone that goes to church can chime in or ask one of their pastors about same last name marriages. I believe if you're scared of this taboo there's that saying, "If you're scared, go to church".
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🐮
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What if you dated someone of the same last name because this other person gave you a false name? I've been told to restore honor, a process "fix" in Hmong is done?
In that case.......
(http://api.ning.com/files/F0Vp4-WYRfV3ox9FekduBGiuBW1pFdsf33cfl8vMMGEVmT*5pY7a6NNTtdtPY7ypbmUWKJwqC7z3QKdAXjVxkqKX5lqdaXk*/punked.jpg)
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What if you dated someone of the same last name because this other person gave you a false name? I've been told to restore honor, a process "fix" in Hmong is done?
Nothing needs to be done as you didn't do anything wrong....and nothing will happen...so no need to waste time to "restore honor" and other primitive BS. O0
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Thanks for the advice.. I couldn't understand how I am held accountable for something I did not know of, plus something I did before I met my current bf? I thought there may be more to "Hmong kev chai" that I don't know of. I'm guessing this is all bullshit and an excuse for him only.
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Thanks for the advice.. I couldn't understand how I am held accountable for something I did not know of, plus something I did before I met my current bf? I thought there may be more to "Hmong kev chai" that I don't know of. I'm guessing this is all bullshit and an excuse for him only.
The primitive "Hmong kev chai" don't mean jack here in America...
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people...
know the difference...t he word "xeem" refers to province. such as xeem hawj is from the "xeev" HO...named after the chinese govenor who ruled those hmong in that province. likewise, xeem Yaj is from "xeev yang", ruled by the chinese govenor Yang...
the true clan name are "dluag, vug, zag, dub, mob, etc..."
when you say "same clan marriage," you need to know what you meant. do you mean same family name? same place of residence? or same direct family such as a true sister?
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by the way, when referring to true mong clan, we don't say "xeem" anymore. we say "qhua"...such as "koj yog qhua dabtsi"?
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fact is people, xeem does not imply same "qhua." this means that not all xeem are related.
however, it is important to know that since 1600, people of the same xeem are related.
it is ok to change this tradition. there is nothing wrong with same clan marriage...
the qeustion is, r you willing to face the consequences
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FACT: there are consequences in everything you do....
there is nothing wrong with what you do, including marrying whoever you want...but are you willing to take the consequences. PEOPLE DO/DON'TDO THINGS not because its right or wrong (right or wrong is different for different peoople..no one can really define it)..they do it or dont' do it because of consequences.
so again, there is nothing wrong with your choice...its a matter of "are you man enough to take the consequences" in the actions yuou take.
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Some primitive aspects of cultures should be dropped when it doesn't make sense anymore whether it be in the Hmong culture or other cultures...suc h as marrying multiple spouse, adults marrying kids, etc.
As far as the "last name" thing goes, people have enough common sense to know that you are not blood related just because you share the same last name. Which is why the Chinese and Koreans dropped that primitive belief out of their cultures and moved forward. I see more and more Hmong people moving that direction too as it doesn't make sense anymore.
As far as "consequences" goes, that just depends on individuals' perspective and what they follow...the old primitive way or the new way.
Even in this day and age, some still feel it's NOT OK to marry a non-blood related stranger who shares the same last name but it's OK to marry a blood related family member like cousins for example ....
And speaking of consequences, just don't get caught by the authorities in pretty much all parts of this country when one decides to marry one's own blood related family members just because the primitive belief said it's OK...
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it seems many of you did not understand what i meant when i said "consequences"....it can be good or bad people.
regarding "primitive," this is also depends on how you view it. for the best chance survival..an adult male marrying a much younger female would not be anything close to being primitive--for it is the best chance of offsprings survival and making offsprings. in terms of multiple spouses, it also really depend on how one views it. it is just weird for a person to think that since this is the present where science rule the rule, having many wives is a bad thing....there is no correlation at all. however, people (couple) would be in more harmony if its just 1-1.
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Bottom line is, if you still want to follow the primitive ways, you have that right in this great country as long as it's not against the laws or violating anyone's rights.
Those of us that want to drop it also have that right to do so in this great country and I know for sure, we are not breaking any laws nor violating anyone's rights by doing so...
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Regardless of anything else.... Hmong people do not believe in marrying same last names and I'm not going to start. It's embarrassing and shameful to say the least. There are enough Hmong last names that you don't need to be acting like a redneck. What's next, looking for dates at family reunions?
Totally agree... Hmong will be the next Redneck in America. Just because American do it don't mean we have to do it. Offsprings of sister and brother shouldn't be marry either.
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The intellect of our ancestors is not in question here. They set parameters base on the ethics and cultural norms. Marrying cousins with DIFFERENT last names is within the parameters. However, I’m beginning to see that in the United States, this is less of an occurance.
Are you really so naïve?
The same justification you have for marrying your own clan name can be used to justify marrying your sister, mother, brother, father, uncle, etc… So where does it stop? It’s unethical as stated by our ancestors. Furthermore, it’s not a cultural norm. Society is defined by laws and cultural norms; even if they pose no real threat. They still have ethical and moral implications. For instance, you can make a case for marrying your sister; even to the extent of providing scientific proof that it doesn’t hurt anyone. Yet, it will still be condemned by society. In fact, it’s illegal in many parts of the world, including the US in some way, shape or form.
There is no law that prevents you from marrying your own clan name. However, it is socially taboo in Hmong society. If this reason isn’t good enough for you, then what is? Does it need to be handed down from gods? People make rules as to what is culturally accepted or not. Same name clan marriages generally are not. Do a search on the Internet or ask around. I believe most people, regardless of race, have reservations about marrying someone with the same last name.
I'm sorry for the belated post here but I feel strongly about this topic enough to rebut you.
Ok, we 1st generations (Americans or came here as an infant) 'generally' scoff at the Hmong social norm of approving of marrying our first cousins with different last names. But first cousins with same last names are prohibited - according to that same Hmong norm. Go figure. Which btw, incidentally are both prohibited (not technically legal) in the USA altogether. And that is after all the elder statesmen telling us it's OK to carry on the former (sentence) of marrying our first cousin w/ a different last name.
Me personally, I don't care as long as it's not your brother/sister, mother/father.
Here's my main point: I even care much, much less if it were two virtually unrelated people with the same last name, e.g., Xiong and Xiong, Vue and Vue, etc., which by virtue is in the same 'clan', I believe.
You argue that we really shouldn't push the boundaries of societal norms lest we be ousted by society. Well, there you go. First cousins marrying in America is pushing the boundaries of societal norms, even illegal. So ARE you a hypocrite or does American social norms NOT count? Or are you actually still in favor with that (kissing cousins) but still disallow within the same 'clan' marriage. If so, then you undoubtedly are a hypocrite in my book.
Yet same last name marriage practices - as long as there are no multi-generational lineage- are way, way more common across the planet then first cousins getting hitched/dating.
And that is the situation right now (above sentence) with our cultural conundrum - if you can call it that. We are the only East Asian culture on the planet to appoint 'clans' and prohibit marriage within that 'clan' just because we have the same last name YET approve of first cousin marriage. Every other Asian ethnic, or anyone else in the World, marry comfortably within the same last name as long as they check up on their lineage.
The goal is to avoid first or - second or even third (if we even want to go that far) - generational incest. That is not incest. That is arbitrary tribalism to pit the 'clans' against one another. Again, only we Hmong do that.
TLDR, It's fine to marry first, second, third cousins with different last names BUT against 'our' (Hmong) edict to marry another person of your 'clan' (essentially a stranger with your same last name) of which you surely have zero lineage too. Go figure. I disagree. It's antiquated tribalism NOT incest. Your cultural parameters are outdated as like segregation in school.
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I like how you people come up with all sort of "culture" ideology illustrations to counter your lack of proof to back up why marrying your own "CLAN" is morally wrong? I've read and heard the same arguments all the time....MOST are nothing but gibberish at best.
Until you have something "NEW" to convince me otherwise, you people are simply NOT thinking in the big scheme of things. We no longer live in a world run by "fairy tales stories or "poj ua tseg yawg ua cia" lawm....We live in a "SCIENTIFIC" world were we MUST question our values and culture if we are to advance ideologically and sociologically ....
Thank you Sir, or Ma'am. Much appreciated.
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Hmong have already come close to it. To those Hmorons, it's not ok to marry a stranger with the same last name that has zero biological connection but it's ok to marry a biological blood related family member. :idiot2:
And according to some, the same last name can't marry belief was adopted from the Chinese so it wasn't even a Hmong practice to begin with...
This. Very much this. By next generation. I feel we will all see the inanity in that. The Chinese has forwent all that in favor of marrying whoever you want as long as you check up on the lineage.
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There lies your problem. You care too much what others think of your own ethnic group rather than have the spine to stand proud and accept that it's a social taboo in our culture. Why do you allow another culture to define what is right or isn't right in YOUR culture? :idiot2: Does a horse tell a cow how to live? :idiot2: There isn't anything wrong with this practice of ours. None of you have presented a compelling reason to fix something that isn't broken.
Do you believe in gay marriage?
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Many aspects of the Hmong culture is good but the bad aspects such as 'bride-nap, men being allowed to marry multiple wives or date other women even after marriage, trading money for human, grandpa marrying underage kids, alcohol poisoning of minors at weddings, blood family members marrying each other, non-blood related strangers with the same last name can't date/marry, ...gotta go. As I've said, those that want to continue practicing those primitive practices, suit yourself but I'm not.
Right on the money, Sir.
I'm a proud Hmong guy, and I think it's HIGHLY hypocritical to be so sanctimonious about this thread/topic when they have nothing to say about polygamy (multiple wives), cheating, age gap marriage, possibly even kidnapping of a minor. Sorry, for being late to the party, I just joined.
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I knew you would bring this up and am fully prepared to state that such point is irrelevant to the topic you proposed, which is marrying same clan name. So let's just stick with that.
There is nothing primitive about this age-old practice in our culture. It is simply a social taboo that is observed by the majority of Hmong people. I don't know why you have difficulties understanding that. If you want to step outside social norm then that's your prerogative but be prepared to face criticism. This is the same as people who look for ways to be a non-conformist. They may not be doing anything illegal but since it's not standard practice they will get talked about.
I don't know why you continue to argue tooth and nail as if you want something written as law to stop this. It's as silly as trying to write a law that will allow American bride's to wear a purple wedding dress. :idiot2: Traditionally, brides wear a white wedding gown but who is to say that a bride can't wear cheetah print if that's what she wants? She will probably get talked about but must we debate and establish a law about this? ::)
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Right on the money, Sir.
I'm a proud Hmong guy, and I think it's HIGHLY hypocritical to be so sanctimonious about this thread/topic when they have nothing to say about polygamy (multiple wives), cheating, age gap marriage, possibly even kidnapping of a minor. Sorry, for being late to the party, I just joined.
Hey Joe,
Welcome to this message board and enjoy your stay.
Fortunately, more and more Hmong are moving away from those beliefs/practices from what I've seen over the years. O0
The idea that non-blood related strangers who happen to share the same last name are forbidden to hook up but blood related family members like cousins are allowed does create head scratching moments... ;D