PebHmong Discussion Forum
Sports Category => Hmong Sports => Topic started by: thePoster on March 21, 2014, 11:02:58 PM
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Well, sometimes I play with these people...
And appearantly, net balls count and you can kick the ball too...
I was so dumbfounded... .
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I've played international and USA rules for a long time back in mid 90's and since the USA Volleyball had adopted most of the international rules after y2k...I'm very comfortable playing that way. Furthermore I coached USA JOV girls for about 4-5 years, and just about every year there were rule changes that I had to adjust to. Trying to convert players from high school style to a college/international style of play was a major challenge, but a whole season can take some 3rd string players into 1st string players was the results.
I haven't played...Hmong rules, aka middle school volleyball rules from back in 80's for a very long time. You could say when I was playing college style level, most everybody was still playing high school style level.
It's extremely confusing since, nobody ever even mentions scoring rule changes at the start of game. But some idiots at J4 finally figure out that no one needs to have an hour long match of deuce duece on first set of 2 out of 3 game, FINALLY!
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I've played league volleyball with a coworker and yes, some of the rules have changed. When I first joined, I was surprised to see the ladies kicking the ball :o then finding out it was allowed. ;D
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Yes, wierd huh? First time I saw a kick ball I stopped playing and everyone was still going aggressive.... I didn't know what was going on...
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I play Phalen style! shot gun before the play, net is below 7ft and mov nplaum counts! ;D
LOL...tai chi ball sets are good man! All good. O0
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I dislike the new rules, especially the new beach rules. I still hate the libero position, but it seems like it is here to stay.
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I dislike the new rules, especially the new beach rules. I still hate the libero position, but it seems like it is here to stay.
Last time I heard, experimental rule, Libero gets to serve...like pinch hitter/server once per set.
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Well I jumped straight up and with both arms in the air in a V shape formation and was attempting a block but the ball spiked at my head and landed on the other side for a point.
I didn't know I could use my head like in soccer. ha
I think it's always been that way for blocking, contact with upper part of the body...but some where, some time, Hmong rules changed that from serve reception to include blocking. Oh and when and where did they decide that only bumping on the serve was only allowed...gues s they had to be different from the rest of the world. Or that they just saw some beach volleyball and decided that what they saw became a rule without actually learning the original rules.
If I remember correctly...th e first "real" spikes came about the 1960's or 1916's .... and the "real" block came after that maybe like a decade after or something....I forget my volleyball history now. And I used to be a coach... :P
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Playing the libero position might be fun for that individual. In fact, if I were growing up in today, I might be a libero because I was a pretty good passer. However, I hate the libero position on principle. The position allows people to be an incomplete player. Some examples on old school...
1. You're a great passer. You're digging up a lot of our shots. However, we're going to punish your team when you get in the front.
2. You're a great hitter and blocker. You're killing us and blocking our shots. However, we're going to punish you when you get in the back.
To stop the other team from punishing you, you have to be decent at all the positions. It also gives each person a chance to win the game in their own way. In today's game, a person really only needs to learn half the game. To make it worse, a person is rewarded for it.
Coaches probably like the libero position. It seems like it was created by coaches.
A lot of people will disagree, but that is just how I feel.
Last time I heard, experimental rule, Libero gets to serve...like pinch hitter/server once per set.
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From a coaching stand point...you want your team to avoid being punished as well as maximize your opportunity to punish the other team per say...But we're only looking at the game from an on court full of 6 player team of indoor aspect.
There's a lot of differences in 4 player, 3 player, and 2 player teams. Then there's the co-ed aspect where they have stranger court rules like males can only block or may even come from back row to block. Even simply looking at rule differences from high school to college then to national rules then to international rules.
Then you get the WI vs MN Hmong volleyball differences... ha ha ha ha. and don't even get me started on the cheating reffing that happens on weekend tourneys.
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That's actually the reason why I dislike the libero position. IMO, it's a cop-out for players and coaches. If a player can only spike and not be a good passer, then that player should be exposed, vice versa too. It's a part of the game. That's the entire reason for rotating. With the libero, we might as well eliminate rotating...whi ch may very well happen in the future.
I don't mind Hmong rules...do they even still play by the old school rules? I don't even think they are the same in different parts of the country when Hmong people started playing the game. I haven't been to a tournament in years, but I don't see why kids today would still play by them. Point on serve? 15 win by 2? No sets or open hands on serves/spikes? 10ft "tip line?" No touching of centerline? No oversets or setting the ball over? No lets? That's just some of the things.
As for the cheating...it's expected. I don't know about games today, but if it is anything like before, no one is going to call a carry on set. No formation or rotation infractions. Some setters and spikers never rotate. Or maybe you are talking about real cheating....
From a coaching stand point...you want your team to avoid being punished as well as maximize your opportunity to punish the other team per say...But we're only looking at the game from an on court full of 6 player team of indoor aspect.
There's a lot of differences in 4 player, 3 player, and 2 player teams. Then there's the co-ed aspect where they have stranger court rules like males can only block or may even come from back row to block. Even simply looking at rule differences from high school to college then to national rules then to international rules.
Then you get the WI vs MN Hmong volleyball differences... ha ha ha ha. and don't even get me started on the cheating reffing that happens on weekend tourneys.
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I personally don't have problems with any rules...it's just that Hmong volleyball rules (old school)...well the players don't even know the rules...and when they appear that they do...well that's because they only know how to cheat by some rules. As soon as I stepped outside of Hmong volleyball rules...all I saw was how dumb down Hmong volleyball rules were....no offense but...it's really a limited scope of play. Why is that cheating is expected in Hmong volleyball rules? The better team loses because of cheating, not because they were fairly eliminated. That makes Hmong volleyball more incomplete and more incompetent as players. I'm kind of glad that they're stepping away from the old school rules and adopting some current real world officiated rules, but they still have a long ways to go. Like providing a basic tournament rules of the game so that everyone agrees on the rulings and let the better team win by skills instead.
Why do you think a libero position is a cop-out? I mean it's basically like a free substitution.. .allowing a hitter time to rest and study their opponents. We could just not allow any substitution except in the case of injury. If anything else...Hmong players could then actually have a chance to try out for some college or even the national team.
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Old school Hmong and even these New school Hmong games are simply a different game. It's not fair to say they are inferior. That's like saying anything other than NBA style basketball is inferior.
I agree that the rules should be clear and enforced, especially since prize money is involved.
The libero position is a cop-out for the very reason you just wrote, "it's basically like a free substitution.. .allowing a hitter time to rest and study their opponents." Players are given time off to rest. Players don't have to pass. I prefer the variation. Teams can win on fitness. Teams can win on defense. Teams can exploit weak spots. With the libero, it's all the same. Coaches probably love it because it makes their job easier. Now, get a good libero, a few stronger hitters, and let's see who gets more spikes in. Newer players probably like this, but I don't. I don't even like watching it.
I personally don't have problems with any rules...it's just that Hmong volleyball rules (old school)...well the players don't even know the rules...and when they appear that they do...well that's because they only know how to cheat by some rules. As soon as I stepped outside of Hmong volleyball rules...all I saw was how dumb down Hmong volleyball rules were....no offense but...it's really a limited scope of play. Why is that cheating is expected in Hmong volleyball rules? The better team loses because of cheating, not because they were fairly eliminated. That makes Hmong volleyball more incomplete and more incompetent as players. I'm kind of glad that they're stepping away from the old school rules and adopting some current real world officiated rules, but they still have a long ways to go. Like providing a basic tournament rules of the game so that everyone agrees on the rulings and let the better team win by skills instead.
Why do you think a libero position is a cop-out? I mean it's basically like a free substitution.. .allowing a hitter time to rest and study their opponents. We could just not allow any substitution except in the case of injury. If anything else...Hmong players could then actually have a chance to try out for some college or even the national team.
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It just occurred to me...the libero reminds me of meters in Street Fighter. I understand the appeal of it, but I like old school hyper fighting. I dislike how a person can make a big mistake, and still get out of it. Not learning how to play front or back lines should be a mistake to be exploited. What's next? Free server substitutions? How about the person only serves and someone else jumps onto the court to pass for them. I'm sure the serves will be awesome, and saves will be just as impressive. I know people disagree with me, but I like the old method: Everybody plays every position. It just makes sense. Otherwise, why rotate at all?
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That's why I said the scope of each team changes and focusing solely on a 6 person indoor rules has very little to do with outdoor game rules or different amount of players on team that applies different rules and different formats of 2/3 or 3/5 sets per game. No where did I say one is inferior in comparison to another, they are just differences. I will say that certain rules limits better ball handlers from utilizing their skills, but those are rules so play by those competition rules. Since Hmong vball rules are adopted mostly from middle/high school rules...to say that on a competitive ruling level...it's fair as competitively dumb down. Historically some of those rules were in fact vball rules for old men...but don't play by a rule that was like nearly 100 yrs old, that nobody else in the world is still playing by...except for vball practice to enhance skills for the current competitive game (or we are just too old to play it so we have old men rules - LOL).
If we had to examine some of the short comings of old school Hmong volleyball rules...it has more perceived shortcomings than merits. Probably different for different parts of the country for us Hmong as well.
Blocking allowed on serve...That's really old school rule...that maybe they should just allow spiking on serve.
Bumping only on serve/spike...if one can cleanly overhand pass, let them...not every serve or spike is coming fast and some people just have stronger fingers than others. Why limit better players with better ball handling skills? Historically bumping was developed by digging the ball with the forearms rather overhand playing it.
Carrying ball on set...Hmong sets...should never drop below the nose of the player, in fact it shouldn't even drop below the eye level (but eyes and nose is pretty level). If I drop the set below my nose...I'm the world's best setter like everyone else who's the world's best setter. Few people actually will have that setter's soft touch. For the longest time...they didn't allow one handed sets....then during one J4 tourney...they suddenly say it's not against the rules. Geez I wonder who won that tournament?
Tip must past 10 feet line...that's just plain ridiculous rule. Why give short players a chance? Furthermore (no offense) but most Hmong tips are actually carries with the thumb. If someone can one finger spike straight down two feet, just accept defeat.
Touching center line...when a setter just touches the center line without even a chance to set the ball, it's already a point to other team/side out. Another ridiculous rule, but very good for safety of players.
Let Serve...The ball is not playable when it touches the net on the serve. If that's the case, make it definitive that all ball touching net are dead plays: no passing into net, no spikes ever touching net, and no blocked balls touching net. It would be a competition of some of the most clean ball handling skills. Took vball nearly 100 years to see how limited that rule is.
Side out and win by 2...I love side out. But competitively for time constraint, no one needs to have hours upon hours of a single set on deuce point. (No where in the officiated rules is there a point cap. Except that I've seen some adopt a point cap rule for their tournament house rules where they usually cap the third set of 2/3 format.) Took me a long time to see the merits of Rally Scoring, but I accept rally score point system now. Win by two points is still stupid...reall y should just cap it no more than five times.
Rotation...has always been at the core of volleyball. However it is a server rotation and never really about team rotation. Historically the root of rotation is for service only...similar like in baseball batting order. To help keep track of service rotation...wel l it just made sense for players on the floor to rotate. Thus the system of positions kind of became a sensible plain method to adopt. That's why is is called Server Rotation for score tracking purpose.
Personally I would love to see a Hmong two or three team tournament...W hen you look at two player team...if forces both players to be complete players. Complete players really have no need to rotate...thus essentially ridding of the rotation. Three player team...allows one to be a stronger setter, along with other strategies.
If one really wants a true complete player...there should be a single's volleyball. I mean with the ability to jump and air juggle the ball all in midair and laying down a spike...It only says that the most talented of player can only compete in such a level. Since most people don't ever train to air juggle the ball, since it's against the current officiated rule, we aren't going to see this type of high skill level in competition form.
As you can tell...I'm pretty passionate about volleyball...L OL O0 I can't believe I've forgotten some pretty important volleyball lingo...that's how long I haven't played volleyball. And the hardest thing about volleyball isn't even playing it. It's reffing it, with the officiated rules. Good thing there's scorekeeper, rotation tracker, line judges, and second/down ref. A really good up/first ref...will learn to trust his fellow reffing team, instead of overruling them. I really should go and earn my reffing card and kick some paid off refs.
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Rules rules rules....
Since we are in this topic...
When I was younger, I had neighbors who played competitive vball but they never really had a team, they would just go whoever asked them. They were pretty good too. Anyways I'd go over on the weekends and play with them for fun.
The rules we'd play with, and I'm assuming they are the same in tournaments becuase this was how we were playing for fun but for practice for them.
Net balls don't count.
You still have to roll but once the ball is served you can change positions.
Back line can't hit but they can come in And jump from out of bounds and hit the 3 ball( I think that's what it's called)
Middle can hit the one ball.
No kick balls
Oversets don't count
That's all I can remember, it was years ago
There was this one guy we use to play for fun with, he said when he use to train kids how to receive, he'd have just two guys back line and one setter agianst a whole team, the setter wouldn't block and they just have to try to get everything...
The neighbor showed us a training method of how to get more up...in thirty days we should have added 30 more inches to our vertical.. I don't know if that is physically possible. I already have like a 2 feet vertical, I don't know if a 54 inch vertical is possible..
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It's very hard for most people to get past 30" vertical. Very few can hit 36" vertical or more.
If net is set at 8' height and net is 3' in width, bottom of net would be 5' in height. Hmong nets tend to be set about 7'6" so about 6" inches lower in most cases. Most guys are over 5' in height let's just say average 5'6" per say. Most guys standing reach is just a bit over 7' so that's why many can measure height of net with their hand reach with like one or two squares (4" squares). I've know a few tall white guys who's got a standing reach of practically 9' high. He only needs to jump a tad few inches higher than 12" to dunk the basketball. If he jumped 24" He'd be slam dunking all day long.
I know by Hmong rules...we do cheat with backrow jumps from out of bounds of the court. Technically the rule of back row attack 10 feet line extends to outside of the bounds of the court, as with the center line also. It's just that most don't even know the technicality of that rule and just then say the lines only count inside of the court, so then we just all play by those rules.
My standing long jump cleared over 8' and that was back in 6th grade. So if I actually put a little foward momentum to my jump...I can easily jump from back row behind 10 feet line and land pretty close to center line. If I'm not careful...I would cross center line easily if I put too much forward momentum into my jump.
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You actually wrote, "That makes Hmong volleyball more incomplete and more incompetent as players." That's virtually saying inferior. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but "incomplete" and "incompetent" are adjectives for inferior.
Anyways, I view the rules like all the rules to almost all games. The NBA has a three point line, and normal baskets count as two, and there is a time limit. However, most pickup games are by ones with a cap. Even if the three point is in play, it counts as 2, not 3. This doesn't mean that the pickup games rules are incomplete or incompetent. There are reasons to like these rules. Similarly, there are reasons to like the old volleyball rules just as much as the new rules.
As for the rules...
I've never seen anyone allowed to block the serve.
I agree with change of passing rules for serves and spikes. However, that Hmong rule made me a better passer. Even in the older western rules, the player's hands must be together whether it was overhand or underhand. The rule has been lifted to virtually "anything goes." I've seen people get away with double hits...I have gotten away with double hits. I just smiled because I knew I wouldn't have gotten away with that a few years ago.
I've seen Hmong setters stop the ball and throw it back up. It's the And1 of volleyball.
I don't have too much of a hard time adjusting to tip rules. I don't mind either way.
I don't mind the centerline rule. Safety. Too many people have rolled their ankles.
I dislike that let serves are legal. No other net sport allows lets on serve. Tennis. Ping Pong. Badminton. Serves, unlike other hits in the game, are in complete control of the player. Thus, it should be a clean hit. New school players will disagree, but oh well. You're not going to change my mind on this one.
I like the win by 2 rule. New school players probably don't like this one; they probably also like rally scoring too. For a lot of old school players, it wasn't about tournaments. Long summer days into the night at the park. King of the Court system. Losers buy winners drinks. So, when there was a tournament, you go to see who was the best of that style. I don't mind it, but I'll understand if new school players don't follow it.
I like old school rotation. You're not going to convince of liking the libero.
A complete player doesn't mean singles. It means the player has to take on more than just one responsibility . It's not fair that a 7 footer is never forced to play the backrow, or a 5 foot libero never has to play the front. Personally, i feel the 7 footer better learn to pass and the 5 footer better learn to jump.
It's a different game now. Not all new things are better...AKA, blocks count as a hit? :idiot2:
That's why I said the scope of each team changes and focusing solely on a 6 person indoor rules has very little to do with outdoor game rules or different amount of players on team that applies different rules and different formats of 2/3 or 3/5 sets per game. No where did I say one is inferior in comparison to another, they are just differences. I will say that certain rules limits better ball handlers from utilizing their skills, but those are rules so play by those competition rules. Since Hmong vball rules are adopted mostly from middle/high school rules...to say that on a competitive ruling level...it's fair as competitively dumb down. Historically some of those rules were in fact vball rules for old men...but don't play by a rule that was like nearly 100 yrs old, that nobody else in the world is still playing by...except for vball practice to enhance skills for the current competitive game (or we are just too old to play it so we have old men rules - LOL).
If we had to examine some of the short comings of old school Hmong volleyball rules...it has more perceived shortcomings than merits. Probably different for different parts of the country for us Hmong as well.
Blocking allowed on serve...That's really old school rule...that maybe they should just allow spiking on serve.
Bumping only on serve/spike...if one can cleanly overhand pass, let them...not every serve or spike is coming fast and some people just have stronger fingers than others. Why limit better players with better ball handling skills? Historically bumping was developed by digging the ball with the forearms rather overhand playing it.
Carrying ball on set...Hmong sets...should never drop below the nose of the player, in fact it shouldn't even drop below the eye level (but eyes and nose is pretty level). If I drop the set below my nose...I'm the world's best setter like everyone else who's the world's best setter. Few people actually will have that setter's soft touch. For the longest time...they didn't allow one handed sets....then during one J4 tourney...they suddenly say it's not against the rules. Geez I wonder who won that tournament?
Tip must past 10 feet line...that's just plain ridiculous rule. Why give short players a chance? Furthermore (no offense) but most Hmong tips are actually carries with the thumb. If someone can one finger spike straight down two feet, just accept defeat.
Touching center line...when a setter just touches the center line without even a chance to set the ball, it's already a point to other team/side out. Another ridiculous rule, but very good for safety of players.
Let Serve...The ball is not playable when it touches the net on the serve. If that's the case, make it definitive that all ball touching net are dead plays: no passing into net, no spikes ever touching net, and no blocked balls touching net. It would be a competition of some of the most clean ball handling skills. Took vball nearly 100 years to see how limited that rule is.
Side out and win by 2...I love side out. But competitively for time constraint, no one needs to have hours upon hours of a single set on deuce point. (No where in the officiated rules is there a point cap. Except that I've seen some adopt a point cap rule for their tournament house rules where they usually cap the third set of 2/3 format.) Took me a long time to see the merits of Rally Scoring, but I accept rally score point system now. Win by two points is still stupid...reall y should just cap it no more than five times.
Rotation...has always been at the core of volleyball. However it is a server rotation and never really about team rotation. Historically the root of rotation is for service only...similar like in baseball batting order. To help keep track of service rotation...wel l it just made sense for players on the floor to rotate. Thus the system of positions kind of became a sensible plain method to adopt. That's why is is called Server Rotation for score tracking purpose.
Personally I would love to see a Hmong two or three team tournament...W hen you look at two player team...if forces both players to be complete players. Complete players really have no need to rotate...thus essentially ridding of the rotation. Three player team...allows one to be a stronger setter, along with other strategies.
If one really wants a true complete player...there should be a single's volleyball. I mean with the ability to jump and air juggle the ball all in midair and laying down a spike...It only says that the most talented of player can only compete in such a level. Since most people don't ever train to air juggle the ball, since it's against the current officiated rule, we aren't going to see this type of high skill level in competition form.
As you can tell...I'm pretty passionate about volleyball...L OL O0 I can't believe I've forgotten some pretty important volleyball lingo...that's how long I haven't played volleyball. And the hardest thing about volleyball isn't even playing it. It's reffing it, with the officiated rules. Good thing there's scorekeeper, rotation tracker, line judges, and second/down ref. A really good up/first ref...will learn to trust his fellow reffing team, instead of overruling them. I really should go and earn my reffing card and kick some paid off refs.
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so volleyball is becoming like kob taub???... ;D ;D ;D
soon enough here we'll be seeing these players do jet li flying kicks and punches... :D :D :D
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I played Hmong rules and thought I was a better player than most until I stepped out of it. Then learn the real officiated rules and played some real officiated rules and can definitively say without a doubt that old school Hmong rules are really incomplete. One cannot compete higher than High School volleyball if your skills are solely based off of that level of play. If one cannot compete by other rules and stick solely only to a few certain rules, then it makes that person more incompetent as a player. If you read it as inferior, then let say that Hmong rules makes inferior players just to humor us. No Hmong player could just step into NCAA, USAV, or FIVB and compete when your actual technical playing skills are only still limited to High School level at best. Well it was really a height sport and we were all just too short.
Sure my bump skills was better than most when I played by NCAA rules or USAV or FIVB formates...but compared to Beach (AVP) them guys are masters at digging. I was outclassed the moment I stepped onto the beach court.
If I Hmong overhand set the ball...I'll be killed in Beach (AVP)...but maybe just benched in NCAA, USAV, FIVB. I only became a better setter, or should I say learn real setting form, after I left Hmong rules.
Some of the current officiate rules have a very technical merit behind them...just because referees aren't always players of the game, as most aren't, they can't be definitively make the correct call. They have to have the technical rule in word to make the call. Aside from that, the hand is always faster than the eye. I learned from a great Serbian coach that faster eye is more important than just a good player ball handling skills. I'd bet he make an awesome ref because he knew exactly what to look for...but that's why he's a coach.
There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand. That's just something someone made up and those who don't know the rule, just believed it. (I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref who's been in it for over 50 yrs over the word of some other volleyball player who's played the game for 50 yrs - just saying.) And by Hmong rules...we believed it and learn to play by it. I've never seen anyone reversed forearm pass outside of Hmong vball, except me. Everybody just say...why don't you just overhand pass? Duh! It's not like the ball was fast. Do I feel inferior, no. Did I feel somewhat incompetent, yes. Rule differences. Furthermore in beach...learn the Gator Pass. Yeah, not legal in Hmong rules since hands are apart...but one of the best technique to learn how to do it legally in one clean contact. Now I could get away with an ugly Gator Pass on first contact or fast drive ball. But it wasn't always so.
As it goes: Was it a lift? No...Was it an illegal double contact? No... Is the play dead? No...keep playing.
I Buddha palm, Miyagi Karate Kid chop, and Soccer bicycle kick my volleyball, I just gotta work on my landing on the back flip.... :2funny: without crossing the center line. Yes I've been accused of illegal jump kicking the ball when I accused them of not being able to head butt the ball. What can I say if the setter set the ball way short by two feet away and I'm already committed to my jump...and the only thing that could reach the ball was my foot in midair. I think that was the first year they made rule changes and most of us didn't know it around 1990-94's or shortly after '94. We all felt a bit stupid for arguing after we looked up the officiated rules, cuz we had booze to buy at stake there. Well this was with meskas. If I remember correctly, High School rules was still no ball contact below the waist line or some wording to that extent. Yeah...hence the argument. Major rule changes generally coincide with Olympic years...so must've been the 92-96 rule set. Blahh I forget...it's been too long. Just glad the Hmong people are beginning to drop some inferior rules... :2funny:
Blocks do not count as one of the contact except in Beach format...unles s that has just changed recently and I haven't stayed up to date with latest rule set.
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You are welcomed to like the new rules more. A lot of people do. However, that doesn't mean that the old rules, whether they are Hmong or western, are "incomplete" or "incompetent." They are simply different games. And1 vs. New NBA vs. Old NBA vs. Golden Age NBA. Those are not really the same game. You might as well be comparing two different sports.
I have to disagree with your assessment of players. There is no reason that a person can't play both rules. They might simply be more comfortable with one over another. Also, it is unfair to compare NCAA players to pickup players. NCAA players are picked around the country among the best players in the country. Also, as difficult as it is for a Hmong person to come play NCAA, it will also be a challenge for a person playing NCAA rules to come play Hmong rules. A better comparison would be comparing a Hmong player among other pickup players.
You wrote, "There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand." Actually, you're mistaken. It used to get called as a double hit. Then, it became more lenient; as long as the reception was done in one motion. Rule 9.2.3.2. This is probably what you remember. This rule specifically states that a player CAN double hit as long as it is one motion. This rule was not always there. Then again, as recently as 2012/2013, the rules were revised again with Rule 9.3.4. This is pretty much telling players to keep the hands together for an overhand pass, or don't do an overhand pass. Guess who doesn't like this new rule?...the new school players.
Everyone is entitled to like whichever rules they want. I see them as different, not necessarily better.
I played Hmong rules and thought I was a better player than most until I stepped out of it. Then learn the real officiated rules and played some real officiated rules and can definitively say without a doubt that old school Hmong rules are really incomplete. One cannot compete higher than High School volleyball if your skills are solely based off of that level of play. If one cannot compete by other rules and stick solely only to a few certain rules, then it makes that person more incompetent as a player. If you read it as inferior, then let say that Hmong rules makes inferior players just to humor us. No Hmong player could just step into NCAA, USAV, or FIVB and compete when your actual technical playing skills are only still limited to High School level at best. Well it was really a height sport and we were all just too short.
Sure my bump skills was better than most when I played by NCAA rules or USAV or FIVB formates...but compared to Beach (AVP) them guys are masters at digging. I was outclassed the moment I stepped onto the beach court.
If I Hmong overhand set the ball...I'll be killed in Beach (AVP)...but maybe just benched in NCAA, USAV, FIVB. I only became a better setter, or should I say learn real setting form, after I left Hmong rules.
Some of the current officiate rules have a very technical merit behind them...just because referees aren't always players of the game, as most aren't, they can't be definitively make the correct call. They have to have the technical rule in word to make the call. Aside from that, the hand is always faster than the eye. I learned from a great Serbian coach that faster eye is more important than just a good player ball handling skills. I'd bet he make an awesome ref because he knew exactly what to look for...but that's why he's a coach.
There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand. That's just something someone made up and those who don't know the rule, just believed it. (I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref who's been in it for over 50 yrs over the word of some other volleyball player who's played the game for 50 yrs - just saying.) And by Hmong rules...we believed it and learn to play by it. I've never seen anyone reversed forearm pass outside of Hmong vball, except me. Everybody just say...why don't you just overhand pass? Duh! It's not like the ball was fast. Do I feel inferior, no. Did I feel somewhat incompetent, yes. Rule differences. Furthermore in beach...learn the Gator Pass. Yeah, not legal in Hmong rules since hands are apart...but one of the best technique to learn how to do it legally in one clean contact. Now I could get away with an ugly Gator Pass on first contact or fast drive ball. But it wasn't always so.
As it goes: Was it a lift? No...Was it an illegal double contact? No... Is the play dead? No...keep playing.
I Buddha palm, Miyagi Karate Kid chop, and Soccer bicycle kick my volleyball, I just gotta work on my landing on the back flip.... :2funny: without crossing the center line. Yes I've been accused of illegal jump kicking the ball when I accused them of not being able to head butt the ball. What can I say if the setter set the ball way short by two feet away and I'm already committed to my jump...and the only thing that could reach the ball was my foot in midair. I think that was the first year they made rule changes and most of us didn't know it around 1990-94's or shortly after '94. We all felt a bit stupid for arguing after we looked up the officiated rules, cuz we had booze to buy at stake there. Well this was with meskas. If I remember correctly, High School rules was still no ball contact below the waist line or some wording to that extent. Yeah...hence the argument. Major rule changes generally coincide with Olympic years...so must've been the 92-96 rule set. Blahh I forget...it's been too long. Just glad the Hmong people are beginning to drop some inferior rules... :2funny:
Blocks do not count as one of the contact except in Beach format...unles s that has just changed recently and I haven't stayed up to date with latest rule set.
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Sorry but your contradiction just simply doesn't stand...
There is no reason that a person can't play both rules
You can't play two contradicting rules, period. That's saying we allow kicking oh wait we don't allow kicking...so which is it? Or one side does side out scoring and the other side does rally scoring...pick one. Unless you mean I'm already living proof of it, since I went from Hmong rules, to NCAA, to USAV, to FIVB, and AVP Beach rules. So I've basically played five different rules, but never together since they contradict on certain rules.
They are simply different games. And1 vs. New NBA vs. Old NBA vs. Golden Age NBA
I have no idea where you're going with this. It's like NCAA D1, vs NCAA D2 vs NCAA D3 or something. If you call it a different game...you are in the minority of opinion there. Nobody is gonna play D1 format with 20 yrs old rule against another D1 format with up to date rules. If one insists on playing 20 yrs old rule, then slap the label "incomplete" or "incompetent." You can't cheat, period...too many officials watching.
Also, as difficult as it is for a Hmong person to come play NCAA, it will also be a challenge for a person playing NCAA rules to come play Hmong rules
Not really if Hmong rules were actually written and shared before playing. Ever been to a practice where the coach says...no overhand passing on next scrimmage...yo u all need to work on your bumps? Again trying to prove a point with cheating Hmong rules...oh wait if it was written down...then the cheating may actually not happens...wish ful thinking but Hmong rules and cheating players are just kind of in the same bag.
I have to disagree with your assessment of players
You disagree with my assessment of players is like saying you disagree with the assessment of players in NCAA, USAV, FIVB, AVP...And the rules are proof of it as well. I didn't make these rules up nor did I assess their skill levels...They're done and "incomplete" and "incompetent" maybe just your nature to nag and try to disprove it as an opinion. I'm telling you facts of some things that can be comparable from player to referee to coach through the progression of volleyball skill levels. You'll just don't go pro level from high school level. And I don't know how to explain it any further unless someone has played by all the different levels of players, by the different levels of rules, and by seeing it from all three different pov's. Players, coaches, and refs will always disagree on things, but when you've been in all three positions long enough...you will connect the dots of comparison. High School/Hmong rules is really at the bottom of the competition skill levels. If some vball player from a big10 D1 team comes out and say...High School (NFHS) is superior...the y may as well drop out of college right there.
Look at it this way
High School/Hmong rules: Amateur, intermediate, basic
NCAA rules: advance, Semi-Pro
USAV FIVB BEACH: Semi-Pro, Pro levels
The rules follows it, the underlying progression of skill levels...The more advance players they get more rules and more strategies to work with. An amateur player to a Pro Beach player is "incompetent" to step onto the pro court level. Don't get me wrong...one can be competent at their skills level, and still be incompetent to the next skill level. The amateur player is "incomplete" since they've probably never obtained the skill level to fully play as a complete player in all aspect of serving, passing, setting, blocking, and spiking. By now one can't cheat like how they do with Hmong rules.
"There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
Like I said not mistaken...I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref from the Pro levels who knows the other rules, over that of just some player whose only grounds are amateur rules (skill levels). 50 years is a lot of rule changes...
9.2.3.2 At the first hit of the team, the ball may
contact various parts of the body con-
secutively, provided that the contacts oc-
cur during one action.
This rule specifically states that a player CAN double hit as long as it is one motion
No one can double hit...double hit is two separate motions. Don't twist the words. To a ref, the ball may make multiple contacts. Like I said...be a real ref by the rule. You tell a good ref you double hit it...you just lost the rally. You tell a bad ref you double hit it...well bad ref will probably say play on. But we gonna have a real good corrective chat with that bad ref...later. Again I'm not mistaken.
Everyone is entitled to like whichever rules they want.
How can you state that?
No these rules are not just some simple self entitle want or don't want. They are official. If you can't play by those rules on those competition levels...you are then as "incomplete" and therefore "incompetent" on those higher levels. It doesn't make you inferior...jus t haven't got there yet. When are you gonna realize that I'm not limiting the scope to just Hmong volleyball rules, old school vs new school. When the officiating rules are changing about every 4 yrs. I believe 8 yrs for FIVB. Old school is very old school. And we're just throwing words around now... ;D
Again...I'm glad the Hmong volleyball is trying to catch up and adopt some of the more current official rules.
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You misunderstand.
A person can play both rules. A person can play Hmong rules in Hmong games, and play NCAA rules at college, and beach at the beach. The person can be pretty good at all of them. Similarly, a person can be good at AND1 and still be good at organized ball too.
Are you saying that you don't know the difference between AND1 and the NBA and typical basketball pickup rules? These are not 20 year old rules. These games are all currently being played.
You got a problem with Hmong tournaments, but that doesn't mean that the western rules are better. There are people out there who rather play with all the silly Hmong rules than allow let serves. It's preference.
Your assessment of players is wrong. Are you saying that if Hmong people were playing with NCAA rules, they would be getting recruited? Of course not. Simply changing the rules doesn't make Hmong players D1 material. Your logic doesn't add up.
You are using a definition to define a word. Of course the professional rules are "professional." If the Hmong tournaments were more popular, it would be the opposite. It's all perspective.
You are mistaken, and you don't realize it. Double hits of any kind used to be illegal. Rule 9.2.3.2 allowed certain double hits to be legal. That rule was not always in place. You probably don't remember a time when that wasn't true. You said there was never a rule, but there was. Before, double contact of any kind was considered a double hit. Rule 9.2.3.2 changed that. This isn't an opinion; it's a fact.
Everyone is entitled to like whatever rules they want. You like Rule 9.2.3.2, but others don't. What about the new Rule 9.3.4? This rule makes your beloved rule obsolete. 9.3.4 is pretty much saying players shouldn't do open overhand passes.
You don't seem to understand that there are different versions of sports. Pickup tennis. They don't play pro rules. Pickup basketball. They don't play pro rules. Ping Pong. They don't play pro rules. Why does volleyball have to only play by pro rules?
Sorry but your contradiction just simply doesn't stand...
You can't play two contradicting rules, period. That's saying we allow kicking oh wait we don't allow kicking...so which is it? Or one side does side out scoring and the other side does rally scoring...pick one. Unless you mean I'm already living proof of it, since I went from Hmong rules, to NCAA, to USAV, to FIVB, and AVP Beach rules. So I've basically played five different rules, but never together since they contradict on certain rules.
I have no idea where you're going with this. It's like NCAA D1, vs NCAA D2 vs NCAA D3 or something. If you call it a different game...you are in the minority of opinion there. Nobody is gonna play D1 format with 20 yrs old rule against another D1 format with up to date rules. If one insists on playing 20 yrs old rule, then slap the label "incomplete" or "incompetent." You can't cheat, period...too many officials watching.
Not really if Hmong rules were actually written and shared before playing. Ever been to a practice where the coach says...no overhand passing on next scrimmage...yo u all need to work on your bumps? Again trying to prove a point with cheating Hmong rules...oh wait if it was written down...then the cheating may actually not happens...wish ful thinking but Hmong rules and cheating players are just kind of in the same bag.
You disagree with my assessment of players is like saying you disagree with the assessment of players in NCAA, USAV, FIVB, AVP...And the rules are proof of it as well. I didn't make these rules up nor did I assess their skill levels...They're done and "incomplete" and "incompetent" maybe just your nature to nag and try to disprove it as an opinion. I'm telling you facts of some things that can be comparable from player to referee to coach through the progression of volleyball skill levels. You'll just don't go pro level from high school level. And I don't know how to explain it any further unless someone has played by all the different levels of players, by the different levels of rules, and by seeing it from all three different pov's. Players, coaches, and refs will always disagree on things, but when you've been in all three positions long enough...you will connect the dots of comparison. High School/Hmong rules is really at the bottom of the competition skill levels. If some vball player from a big10 D1 team comes out and say...High School (NFHS) is superior...the y may as well drop out of college right there.
Look at it this way
High School/Hmong rules: Amateur, intermediate, basic
NCAA rules: advance, Semi-Pro
USAV FIVB BEACH: Semi-Pro, Pro levels
The rules follows it, the underlying progression of skill levels...The more advance players they get more rules and more strategies to work with. An amateur player to a Pro Beach player is "incompetent" to step onto the pro court level. Don't get me wrong...one can be competent at their skills level, and still be incompetent to the next skill level. The amateur player is "incomplete" since they've probably never obtained the skill level to fully play as a complete player in all aspect of serving, passing, setting, blocking, and spiking. By now one can't cheat like how they do with Hmong rules.
"There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
Like I said not mistaken...I'm gonna believe a real officiating ref from the Pro levels who knows the other rules, over that of just some player whose only grounds are amateur rules (skill levels). 50 years is a lot of rule changes...
9.2.3.2 At the first hit of the team, the ball may
contact various parts of the body con-
secutively, provided that the contacts oc-
cur during one action. No one can double hit...double hit is two separate motions. Don't twist the words. To a ref, the ball may make multiple contacts. Like I said...be a real ref by the rule. You tell a good ref you double hit it...you just lost the rally. You tell a bad ref you double hit it...well bad ref will probably say play on. But we gonna have a real good corrective chat with that bad ref...later. Again I'm not mistaken.
How can you state that?
No these rules are not just some simple self entitle want or don't want. They are official. If you can't play by those rules on those competition levels...you are then as "incomplete" and therefore "incompetent" on those higher levels. It doesn't make you inferior...jus t haven't got there yet. When are you gonna realize that I'm not limiting the scope to just Hmong volleyball rules, old school vs new school. When the officiating rules are changing about every 4 yrs. I believe 8 yrs for FIVB. Old school is very old school. And we're just throwing words around now... ;D
Again...I'm glad the Hmong volleyball is trying to catch up and adopt some of the more current official rules.
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You just want to keep talking volleyball and keep this thread going... :2funny:
Yeah I've got a problem with Hmong tournaments... they don't even play by Hmong rules...
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Everyone has every right to dislike Hmong tournaments and Hmong rules. However, it is also not fair to say that the only good rules are the FIVB rules. The rules have always been changing. You may or may not realize that. That is why you thought there was never a rule forcing people to keep the hands together. Rule 9.2.3.2 changed it by redefining what was a double hit. One day, you will be on the side looking in. In fact, that day is closer than what you think. Rule 9.3.4 doesn't really support open overhand passes. I don't know if you like this rule or not, but a lot of people who grew up without this rule are probably not going to like it. There's backlash already.
It still isn't fair to compare D1 players to Hmong pickup players. Even if the Hmong players played FIVB rules, they still aren't D1 players.
You just want to keep talking volleyball and keep this thread going... :2funny:
Yeah I've got a problem with Hmong tournaments... they don't even play by Hmong rules...
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Everyone has every right to dislike Hmong tournaments and Hmong rules. However, it is also not fair to say that the only good rules are the FIVB rules. The rules have always been changing. You may or may not realize that. That is why you thought there was never a rule forcing people to keep the hands together. Rule 9.2.3.2 changed it by redefining what was a double hit. One day, you will be on the side looking in. In fact, that day is closer than what you think. Rule 9.3.4 doesn't really support open overhand passes. I don't know if you like this rule or not, but a lot of people who grew up without this rule are probably not going to like it. There's backlash already.
It still isn't fair to compare D1 players to Hmong pickup players. Even if the Hmong players played FIVB rules, they still aren't D1 players.
You have no idea what I'm talking about really...You should realized that you need to stop talking about a specific rule if you don't understand the wording of it. You can't reword if from a player's lingo and expect that to hold any merit. That's playing to the semantic of Hmong rules...one person decides to word it during a tournament and then a few people decides it's a new rule. It's not fair that his happens, but it happens.
Here's an example of what I mean: Some player claiming to be blocking the the ball with a spike. The people who knows the difference will know that it's a spike. The people who don't know the difference will just believe that player. Why? We just say it's Hmong rules and leave it at that. Is that a positive way of playing vball? Without even giving any opinion into it. Those that know the rules...will say no. Those that don't know the rules...they will just accept it.
Like I said...the word of a real USAV ref of over 50 yrs of experience once told me this, "I've seen more rule changes after y2k then in the last half century of vollleyball history." Just saying that I've seen just a few rule changes. I've got more than 20 yrs of vball time in now.
Look at the wording of the current rules of what you talk about. with 9.3.4 And by the way this rule hasn't changed in the since 1990 since I've seen it...and I can't vouch how many more years it's been that way maybe another 50 yrs before that. It is Not the 2012/13 revision you're talking about, that which you believe has changed nor is it a new rule like you stated.
9.3 FAULTS IN PLAYING THE BALL
9.3.1 FOUR HITS: a team hits the ball four times before
returning it.
9.3.2 ASSISTED HIT: a player takes support from a
teammate or any structure/object in order to hit
the ball within the playing area.
9.3.3 CATCH: the ball is caught and/or thrown; it does
not rebound from the hit
9.3.4 DOUBLE CONTACT: a player hits the ball twice in
succession or the ball contacts various parts of his/
her body in succession.
Those are faults that will result in ending the play/rally. No where is the wording about open overhand passes. You will never argue your case with a ref. Case closed.
******
I'm wondering why do you believe in your opinion on this: about skills comparison to rules?
Rules do not define player's individual skills...If you firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed. I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own. I was better then many of those D1 players, but didn't have the height to play by their coach's strategy. I cannot ever claim to be a D1 player because I didn't make the team even though I ate them all by tooling them, but that's not what they want or are looking for. I just wondering where you get is the level of player skill for a Hmong pick up player? Are you considering college age tournament pick up players or you talking about some beer betting pick up guys in the park?
I'm just wondering if you understand this? Players must learn how to hone their skills by the rules they play with. Like I said and started this...I played better vball only after I learned to play with FIVB rules. etc.,... Come back to Hmong rules and played better vball. I used rules like a coach uses practice session to hone vball skills. Coaches can make up any rule they want to during practice.
You don't seem to understand that volleyball doesn't come in different version of the sport of volleyball, just different rules. If it's your opinion that Hmong vball is a different sport...then that's just your opinion. To me it's just different rules...like indoor vs outdoor. To play volleyball, one only needs to know the basics skills and that's the bulk of volleyball rules. You can play with Hmong rules and do just fine in an NCAA format. That doesn't mean you're playing by both rules. If you want to compete on equal grounds of NCAA, then you just gonna have to learn a few skills that NCAA rules will give you. Why limit your skills to only Hmong rules? or old school Hmong vball?
You don't have to like, embrace, or even beloved a rule change. You just have to learn to up your skills.
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Before you claim that I don't know what I am talking about, you should think about the rules carefully.
Instead of listening to ONE person, just look up the facts for yourself.
You wrote, "this rule hasn't changed in the since 1990 since I've seen it..." Guess what? People have been playing volleyball long before 1990.
As for Rule 9.3.4...don't take my word for it. Go look it up. See it in practice. Go see how it is being called. See people's reactions to the rule. The rule is pretty much stopping open overhand passes. The hit now has to be perfectly clean....which so happens to be closer to the original rules of volleyball.... which you mistakenly claimed that have never changed. Sure, it's not specifically stated as illegal, but guess what? When a player does it, it's called for a double. That pretty much means you can't do it.
It's your logic that fails. First, you claimed that Hmong rules can only make guys high school level players and not D1 players. The fact is that the Hmong people you were assessing were probably never D1 talent to begin with. Second, let's flip it. If there happens to be a D1 talent level Hmong player, would playing Hmong rules hurt him so much that he couldn't play any other kind of volleyball? That's doubtful. Talent and skills are universal regardless of where a person plays.
At the end of the day, you are upset because you are comparing D1 guys to pickup players. Do you realize how absurd this is?
Rules are always changing in all sports. One day, you will be on the outside looking in. You just don't realize it, but the new rule is phasing out what you are supporting. Anything no longer goes for service reception....h ey, that sounds like Hmong rules. The rules you deemed incompetent. :2funny:
You have no idea what I'm talking about really...You should realized that you need to stop talking about a specific rule if you don't understand the wording of it. You can't reword if from a player's lingo and expect that to hold any merit. That's playing to the semantic of Hmong rules...one person decides to word it during a tournament and then a few people decides it's a new rule. It's not fair that his happens, but it happens.
Here's an example of what I mean: Some player claiming to be blocking the the ball with a spike. The people who knows the difference will know that it's a spike. The people who don't know the difference will just believe that player. Why? We just say it's Hmong rules and leave it at that. Is that a positive way of playing vball? Without even giving any opinion into it. Those that know the rules...will say no. Those that don't know the rules...they will just accept it.
Like I said...the word of a real USAV ref of over 50 yrs of experience once told me this, "I've seen more rule changes after y2k then in the last half century of vollleyball history." Just saying that I've seen just a few rule changes. I've got more than 20 yrs of vball time in now.
Look at the wording of the current rules of what you talk about. with 9.3.4 And by the way this rule hasn't changed in the since 1990 since I've seen it...and I can't vouch how many more years it's been that way maybe another 50 yrs before that. It is Not the 2012/13 revision you're talking about, that which you believe has changed nor is it a new rule like you stated.
9.3 FAULTS IN PLAYING THE BALL
9.3.1 FOUR HITS: a team hits the ball four times before
returning it.
9.3.2 ASSISTED HIT: a player takes support from a
teammate or any structure/object in order to hit
the ball within the playing area.
9.3.3 CATCH: the ball is caught and/or thrown; it does
not rebound from the hit
9.3.4 DOUBLE CONTACT: a player hits the ball twice in
succession or the ball contacts various parts of his/
her body in succession.
Those are faults that will result in ending the play/rally. No where is the wording about open overhand passes. You will never argue your case with a ref. Case closed.
******
I'm wondering why do you believe in your opinion on this: about skills comparison to rules?
Rules do not define player's individual skills...If you firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed. I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own. I was better then many of those D1 players, but didn't have the height to play by their coach's strategy. I cannot ever claim to be a D1 player because I didn't make the team even though I ate them all by tooling them, but that's not what they want or are looking for. I just wondering where you get is the level of player skill for a Hmong pick up player? Are you considering college age tournament pick up players or you talking about some beer betting pick up guys in the park?
I'm just wondering if you understand this? Players must learn how to hone their skills by the rules they play with. Like I said and started this...I played better vball only after I learned to play with FIVB rules. etc.,... Come back to Hmong rules and played better vball. I used rules like a coach uses practice session to hone vball skills. Coaches can make up any rule they want to during practice.
You don't seem to understand that volleyball doesn't come in different version of the sport of volleyball, just different rules. If it's your opinion that Hmong vball is a different sport...then that's just your opinion. To me it's just different rules...like indoor vs outdoor. To play volleyball, one only needs to know the basics skills and that's the bulk of volleyball rules. You can play with Hmong rules and do just fine in an NCAA format. That doesn't mean you're playing by both rules. If you want to compete on equal grounds of NCAA, then you just gonna have to learn a few skills that NCAA rules will give you. Why limit your skills to only Hmong rules? or old school Hmong vball?
You don't have to like, embrace, or even beloved a rule change. You just have to learn to up your skills.
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Ah yeah yeah...why do you disagree? and only conjecture with only opinions on grounds without any empirical data nor actual experience.
I'm just pointing out your errors and giving you examples of what I've seen of how good you are at wording incorrectly. O0
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1. Um, I was the one to say it was all preference. You are the one to say otherwise. :idiot2:
2. You said Hmong rules make players only high school level players. In fact, those same players would have been high school players regardless of the rules.
3. You said there was never a rule forcing people to keep the hands together, but there was. It was changed with 9.2.3.2 and again with 9.3.4.
4. Comparing D1 players to Hmong pickup players still isn't fair. You should compare Hmong pickup players with other pickup players. If you do that, you'll find that they aren't that bad even playing in a FIVB rules game.
You are the one with the errors and the failed logic. It is fine if you dislike Hmong rules and prefer FIVB rules. However, your facts and your comparisons are wrong.
Ah yeah yeah...why do you disagree? and only conjecture with only opinions on grounds without any empirical data nor actual experience.
I'm just pointing out your errors and giving you examples of what I've seen of how good you are at wording incorrectly. O0
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Why you keep calling it inferior?
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D1 player! Speaking of D1 player, my friend was a D1 player, he tells me I don't play hard enough and with heart, he's seen me "really" play one time so he know's I can obviously play better. Every now and then he'll be surprised and say "wow, that was a really good move" or his jaw will just drop with some crazy wild shot(all my shots are not crazy or wild, they just look like it becuase I intend them to be that way, I purposely sometimes play like I'm going to lose the ball or that I have no control of the ball to throw the defender off, and then, that's when the magic happens!) and he'll say that it was pretty good. So coming from a former D1 player, it says something about my game! But that's just basketball.
He's injured this year, oh wells. But next year, we're going to take this little 3 on 3 tournament and win it. This year I wasn't even invited to be part of the team! What a shame!! The funnie thing, if I would've put together a team of scrubs, we would've beat literally over half the teams there! WEll there was only 5 teams anyways.
We're going to get them next year!!!
Anyways I saw D1 so I had to ramble off on a tanget.
I don't know what all this mumbo jumbo jargon's of rules are you two are talking about but...
I think the old old school players could play any position, I'd say they were the more complete players.
Plus, how can anyone be considered a good volleyball if they can't bunt, set, serve. I'm just assuming all the good hmong volleyball players, at the very least, are better than the average setter, bumper, server, spiker.
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That technical jargon is all on bulbasaur...LO L ;D since debate forums has been dead... :2funny: :2funny:
That's all what I'm saying if that when you get good at one rule...you should go try another rule to see if your good at that too or not. If you're not...then you have to ask yourself if you can become better. If you become better then you should try another rule and see if you are becoming better. Then if somehow you end up playing pro level because of that...then give yourself a pat on the back.
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You are the one fixated on the rules, and you just so happen to be wrong on them. It's not a debate, it's fact. No on is saying that you can't like FIVB rules, but those rules were not always the same. Moreover, people can play Hmong rules, and still be good players. There are a lot of Hmong people in college. I bet they can all hold their own.
That technical jargon is all on bulbasaur...LO L ;D since debate forums has been dead... :2funny: :2funny:
That's all what I'm saying if that when you get good at one rule...you should go try another rule to see if your good at that too or not. If you're not...then you have to ask yourself if you can become better. If you become better then you should try another rule and see if you are becoming better. Then if somehow you end up playing pro level because of that...then give yourself a pat on the back.
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Funny that you mention playing against D1 players. My ragtag group of volleyball players beat many D1 players. They weren't the elite D1 volleyball schools, but still D1 players nonetheless. Beat them on 6v6 open campus tournament. Beat them in the open 4v4 sand tournament. Almost won the local colleges tournament. Two of my teammates did beat them in the city 2v2 sand tournament.
That being said, even though we beat them, we weren't really better than them. If they sported their entire team with substitutions, they probably would have beaten us. They made multiple teams for the 6v6 tournament. They thought they were going to win the top spots by doing so. They simply weren't used to playing these kinds of tournaments.
D1 player! Speaking of D1 player, my friend was a D1 player, he tells me I don't play hard enough and with heart, he's seen me "really" play one time so he know's I can obviously play better. Every now and then he'll be surprised and say "wow, that was a really good move" or his jaw will just drop with some crazy wild shot(all my shots are not crazy or wild, they just look like it becuase I intend them to be that way, I purposely sometimes play like I'm going to lose the ball or that I have no control of the ball to throw the defender off, and then, that's when the magic happens!) and he'll say that it was pretty good. So coming from a former D1 player, it says something about my game! But that's just basketball.
He's injured this year, oh wells. But next year, we're going to take this little 3 on 3 tournament and win it. This year I wasn't even invited to be part of the team! What a shame!! The funnie thing, if I would've put together a team of scrubs, we would've beat literally over half the teams there! WEll there was only 5 teams anyways.
We're going to get them next year!!!
Anyways I saw D1 so I had to ramble off on a tanget.
I don't know what all this mumbo jumbo jargon's of rules are you two are talking about but...
I think the old old school players could play any position, I'd say they were the more complete players.
Plus, how can anyone be considered a good volleyball if they can't bunt, set, serve. I'm just assuming all the good hmong volleyball players, at the very least, are better than the average setter, bumper, server, spiker.
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You are the one fixated on the rules, and you just so happen to be wrong on them. It's not a debate, it's fact. No on is saying that you can't like FIVB rules, but those rules were not always the same. Moreover, people can play Hmong rules, and still be good players. There are a lot of Hmong people in college. I bet they can all hold their own.
I'm not wrong about rules...get over it. The only thing I'm fixated is encouraging others to learn how to play by different rules....so so happen to be current officiated rules. So you are wrong yet again. Get over your fixation about making others wrong and trying win by your debate method.
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Funny that you mention playing against D1 players. My ragtag group of volleyball players beat many D1 players. They weren't the elite D1 volleyball schools, but still D1 players nonetheless. Beat them on 6v6 open campus tournament. Beat them in the open 4v4 sand tournament. Almost won the local colleges tournament. Two of my teammates did beat them in the city 2v2 sand tournament.
That being said, even though we beat them, we weren't really better than them. If they sported their entire team with substitutions, they probably would have beaten us. They made multiple teams for the 6v6 tournament. They thought they were going to win the top spots by doing so. They simply weren't used to playing these kinds of tournaments.
U sure they're the actual college team or just pick up college players? huge difference...
Maybe your team should really try to compete in an M1 format...if they're still around.
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VH & BB...Please join us for the J4 tourney. I'll have the two of you play one-on-one, with whatever rules you prefer. I would recommend a very special rule that would include both US and Hmong rules and could be found at Lake Phalen, also known as "Phalen Style". One can catch, throw, kick, take the ball to stargate, get a round drink, dance a few and bring it back the next day so long as you bump, kick, throw, carry, and or drink your way over to the other side of the court. Good Luck1
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LOL...I know Phalen Style...good laugh and fun times.
As long as someone goes and get the ball out of the water. O0 :2funny: :2funny:
The only thing they haven't learned yet is totem pole spike! :2funny:
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If you think you are not wrong, then fine. I can't make you believe it. If you think 9.2.3.2 was always in existence, then I can't help you. If you don't believe 9.3.4 is stopping open overhands, then I can't you. If you think comparing D1 players to Hmong park players is fair, then fine. It's apparent that nothing is going to change your mind.
It's not a debate. Facts.
I'm not wrong about rules...get over it. The only thing I'm fixated is encouraging others to learn how to play by different rules....so so happen to be current officiated rules. So you are wrong yet again. Get over your fixation about making others wrong and trying win by your debate method.
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It was a long time ago. None of us even play anymore....wel l, I can't speak for them. I don't play anymore. Maybe the old crew is still playing somewhere, but they gotta be old by now. I was the youngest. BTW, they weren't Hmong, but they weren't D1 players either.
Not all D1 schools were elite. You're probably thinking California where players are on scholarship and volleyball is actually cool. Volleyball is more popular these days, but back in the day, volleyball was what guys played if they weren't good at basketball. Also, we beat them in tournaments and pickups, not an actual NCAA style game. For the 2v2 sands tournament, I am not even sure if the D1 players got 2nd or 3rd. I think some locals beat them too. Of course, those locals might have been older D1 players.
In later years, the players stopped coming out to play pickup and tournaments. They didn't even play pickups between different schools anymore. They only wanted to play among themselves with their own teams. I can only assume the coach didn't want them learning bad habits, or maybe the coach didn't want them hurting themselves.
That was a lifetime ago.
U sure they're the actual college team or just pick up college players? huge difference...
Maybe your team should really try to compete in an M1 format...if they're still around.
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It was a long time ago. None of us even play anymore....wel l, I can't speak for them. I don't play anymore. Maybe the old crew is still playing somewhere, but they gotta be old by now. I was the youngest. BTW, they weren't Hmong, but they weren't D1 players either.
Not all D1 schools were elite. You're probably thinking California where players are on scholarship and volleyball is actually cool. Volleyball is more popular these days, but back in the day, volleyball was what guys played if they weren't good at basketball. Also, we beat them in tournaments and pickups, not an actual NCAA style game. For the 2v2 sands tournament, I am not even sure if the D1 players got 2nd or 3rd. I think some locals beat them too. Of course, those locals might have been older D1 players.
In later years, the players stopped coming out to play pickup and tournaments. They didn't even play pickups between different schools anymore. They only wanted to play among themselves with their own teams. I can only assume the coach didn't want them learning bad habits, or maybe the coach didn't want them hurting themselves.
That was a lifetime ago.
Those don't sound like any trained D1 players I can think of...and I agree not every D1 team can be consisted of good players. Some are just fodders because they just need to spend their budget and fill the position. All I've got to say is that most guys are extremely full of themselves when it comes to competitive vball. Most of them can't hold their own either, cuz some of the nicest guys off court, are some of the best on court and even more competitive, cuz they are that much better than the rest. Sure I understand that if you're not of college age anymore you really can't compete on that performance level anymore. But skill wise, if you still got it...you learn to play just differently and I've seen old guys over 50+ who can still whoop those skilled college age players (not necessarily D1 team players).
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The run of the mill D1 players are really not that great. The California ones, yes they are really good. They are pretty much the Olympic teams. However, the run of the mill D1 players might only be a bit better than really good long time players. Go look at the actual list of D1 schools with programs. D1 competition consists of D2 schools, and that is today. The list of schools 15-20 years was even smaller. When D1 wants to practice, they call up other club teams at other D1 schools. Outside of California and minus a few schools, men's volleyball really isn't that popular....at least that was how it was before. I really have no idea about today. By the time I quit the game, I didn't even see the D1 players come out to the tournaments anymore.
When we were playing against them, we had a big gun. He was a graduate student at the time. The guy was spiking over 10 ft. The other guys were also graduate students too, and they were at least as good as the D1 guys. Good times.
I am horrible at the game now. I went out a year ago, and I was awful. The eyes are faster than the body. The touch is gone. Weak snap. No air. I had an impressive dig that got crowd applause, but that kind of play was normal back in the day. Also, if I had been faster, I wouldn't have even needed to dig. I feel a little sad about it, but I suppose I can't play forever. At least there is still basketball....
Those don't sound like any trained D1 players I can think of...and I agree not every D1 team can be consisted of good players. Some are just fodders because they just need to spend their budget and fill the position. All I've got to say is that most guys are extremely full of themselves when it comes to competitive vball. Most of them can't hold their own either, cuz some of the nicest guys off court, are some of the best on court and even more competitive, cuz they are that much better than the rest. Sure I understand that if you're not of college age anymore you really can't compete on that performance level anymore. But skill wise, if you still got it...you learn to play just differently and I've seen old guys over 50+ who can still whoop those skilled college age players (not necessarily D1 team players).
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Today's talents are even less...it's kind of been that way...a slow progression of less skillful players. It's kind of politics and funding budgets. If you get money...you sometimes just fill the positions...no t the best players...but more like a coaches ability to play the players. Understand how coaches operates. I mean a few movies about how mostly pro football operates...in a hollywood entertainment way, but still some truths to it.
Anyway some DIII schools have better vball teams than some DI school...speak ing women's.
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Those don't sound like any trained D1 players I can think of...and I agree not every D1 team can be consisted of good players. Some are just fodders because they just need to spend their budget and fill the position. All I've got to say is that most guys are extremely full of themselves when it comes to competitive vball. Most of them can't hold their own either, cuz some of the nicest guys off court, are some of the best on court and even more competitive, cuz they are that much better than the rest. Sure I understand that if you're not of college age anymore you really can't compete on that performance level anymore. But skill wise, if you still got it...you learn to play just differently and I've seen old guys over 50+ who can still whoop those skilled college age players (not necessarily D1 team players).
Don't let age be a factor! Especially in vball!
The only factor is the shape a person is in!
If you're healthy and can run around You can still hang!
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Yeah...but my body is telling me...can't do it! :2funny: :2funny: And when your eyes are going more and more blind...is that the ball right in front of my face!...SMACK...I guess it was. :2funny:
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Time to find a different hobby. NOT HAPPY ABOUT THE NEW RULES! >:(
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Since someone is whining about how he is awesome at the rules...
VillainousHero wrote in bold, "There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
9.2.4 states, "It is a fault, during the reception of service, to make a double contact or catch using an overhand finger action." This rule is pretty much telling players to either put the hands together or hit with one hand.
And let's not forget how you contradict yourself...
VillainousHero wrote, "If you firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed."
Then you wrote, "I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own. I was better then many of those D1 players..."
You just proved yourself wrong. You didn't make any sense in this thread, and you don't make any sense in the other thread.
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You're a smart guy, Not...just a crybaby at this point. :2funny:
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You just mad that you can't admit that you are contradicting yourself. :2funny:
You're a smart guy, Not...just a crybaby at this point. :2funny:
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Really? ;D
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You must've missed the whole conversation a year ago and now you want to revive it to a petty argument from your perspective. :2funny: ain't that contradictory.
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Your contradictions ...
VillainousHero wrote in bold, "There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
9.2.4 states, "It is a fault, during the reception of service, to make a double contact or catch using an overhand finger action." This rule is pretty much telling players to either put the hands together or hit with one hand.
VillainousHero wrote, "If you firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed."
Then you wrote, "I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own. I was better then many of those D1 players..."
You must've missed the whole conversation a year ago and now you want to revive it to a petty argument from your perspective. :2funny: ain't that contradictory.
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And you haven't proved it...
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Don't run away from your contradictions . The truth shall set you free.... :2funny:
VillainousHero wrote in bold, "There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
9.2.4 states, "It is a fault, during the reception of service, to make a double contact or catch using an overhand finger action." This rule is pretty much telling players to either put the hands together or hit with one hand.
VillainousHero wrote, "If you firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed."
Then you wrote, "I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own. I was better then many of those D1 players..."
And you haven't proved it...
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Don't run away from your contradictions . The truth shall set you free.... :2funny:
VillainousHero wrote in bold, "There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
9.2.4 states, "It is a fault, during the reception of service, to make a double contact or catch using an overhand finger action." This rule is pretty much telling players to either put the hands together or hit with one hand.
VillainousHero wrote, "If you firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed."
Then you wrote, "I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own. I was better then many of those D1 players..."
Right there read it.
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Don't run away from your contradictions . The truth shall set you free.... :2funny:
VillainousHero wrote in bold, "There has never been once in the rule that a players's hand must be together, overhand or underhand."
9.2.4 states, "It is a fault, during the reception of service, to make a double contact or catch using an overhand finger action." This rule is pretty much telling players to either put the hands together or hit with one hand.
VillainousHero wrote, "If you firmly believe in your opinion that Hmong pick up players can't match D1 players in skill...you failed."
Then you wrote, "I went from Hmong rules to FIVB and held my own. I was better then many of those D1 players..."
Right there read it.
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See you got it now?
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When you learn to format a rules discussion, I would enjoy to have it with you. However you still want to have this petty sniping of people...you can interpret the rules as wrong as you want...I will just sit back with amusement.
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Two old guys who can't play anymore...LOL. :2funny:
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I personally don't have problems with any rules...it's just that Hmong volleyball rules (old school)...well the players don't even know the rules...and when they appear that they do...well that's because they only know how to cheat by some rules. As soon as I stepped outside of Hmong volleyball rules...all I saw was how dumb down Hmong volleyball rules were....no offense but...it's really a limited scope of play. Why is that cheating is expected in Hmong volleyball rules? The better team loses because of cheating, not because they were fairly eliminated. That makes Hmong volleyball more incomplete and more incompetent as players. I'm kind of glad that they're stepping away from the old school rules and adopting some current real world officiated rules, but they still have a long ways to go. Like providing a basic tournament rules of the game so that everyone agrees on the rulings and let the better team win by skills instead.
Why do you think a libero position is a cop-out? I mean it's basically like a free substitution.. .allowing a hitter time to rest and study their opponents. We could just not allow any substitution except in the case of injury. If anything else...Hmong players could then actually have a chance to try out for some college or even the national team.
I have seen too many whiners in this game. :idiot2:
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I have seen too many whiners in this game. :idiot2:
Sounds like Hmong people still whining about certain rules. :2funny: