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Messages - Believe_N_Me

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2971
I disagree as well... History doesn't lie - Hmong don't fear change; if anything, Hmong change too often. That's our problem, we're always dancing to the tune of whomever welcomes us without ever defining ourselves in the world picture.

Here's what I mean:

1. We were arguably in the Middle East assimilated, then things got bad and we moved out.

2. We settled around China until things got bad and moved again.

3. Next stop, Laos and Thailand where our culture changed some more due to our new environment.

4. Now, we're in America and everyone says, "stope being Hmong now... You're in a better place." But when things go sour, we will up and leave again.

WE HAVE NO IDENTITY BECAUSE WE JUST WANT TO CHANGE AND NOT ESTABLISH OURSELVES!

Heavily agree!  O0 The Hmong do not fear change at all. Finally in America we have elders and younger folks who are fighting harder than ever to be who they are. America has given us that opportunity. They just need the tools, resources, and proper channels to get a momentum going. However, they are interrupted by those who do want to change and assimilate. This is why I stated that it's not a lack of leadership but a lack of followers. There's no way a leader can even enforce his/her plans because s/he doesn't have the actual authority. It has to be the interest of each individual to uphold their desire to be Hmong.   

2972
Lack of followers is only the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is that hmong fear change.

That isn't true at all. I don't know any Hmong person who doesn't want to always be doing better. The problem is that they're not given the proper tools (in ways that they can understand) to do better. The younger generation doesn't quite understand this. They complain that there is lack of leadership but they won't admit that they never intend to follow anyways.

2973
The biggest obstacle we Hmong face is the fact that there exists an overwhelming large pool of people (mainly anybody who has been acculturated into American culture) who will never see a necessity for a Hmong leader. It doesn't make sense to them to establish a new set of standards to follow since mainstream already provides an effective one - according to them since that is all they know and have been taught. A leader to them is someone of the same mindset. But then that is just counterproduct ive since one could just be mainstream and follow mainstream leaders/policies, etc.

In a nutshell, the Hmong do not lack leaders, the Hmong lack followers.

2974
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Exposing Hmong 18 Counsel Clan
« on: June 09, 2013, 11:32:10 AM »
It's not where you live.  It's the kind of people that will be affected.  Uneducated people who don't know American laws.  They will turn to 18 counsel for advice/counseling- this is the root of corruptions.  Denying hmong community to seek real help- instead they filter and exploit the hmong ignorance.

But where is this real help that you are referring to? Obviously, not all Hmong people agree with the American legal system and often feel short-changed. Thus why 18 Counsel was established.

You don't have the right to criticize 18 Counsel when you, yourself, do not know what the Hmong want either.

That's the problem right there. Many people do not know what the Hmong want. They are only going by what they want and then pushing the whole community to want the same thing.

2975
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Exposing Hmong 18 Counsel Clan
« on: June 05, 2013, 01:13:33 AM »
There are many problems with 18 Xeem.  The root of the problem is imbedded in the minds of the elders.  Huh, how so?  The elders hold grudges for generations.  Instead of resolving a solution, they wait until the other clan is at their mercy; then they unleash a history of allegations.  In order for forgiveness, that other clan must make amend for what they have done wrong today plus that list of allegations.

Not to lose face, that clan pay their dues today and some of the alleged issues.  Now that clan is lurking for a future moment when my clan is at fault.  Then this cycle repeats.

Forgiveness is the main problem with Hmong people.  18 Xeem is attempting to address some of those issues; but guess who are in charge: the elders.  This is just one of the many short-comings of 18 Xeem.  The road to hell is always paved with good intentions~Succubus.  The idea is good.  The path where 18 Xeem is going is one that only a few will follow.

The elders do not understand organizations. It's never been the way they operated. They only understand following a respected leader that rose to that position because of embodying trustworthy traits. Reminds me of this foreign-titled movie in the middle east where the government tries to run a democratic election. The only problem is that a good majority of people are going to vote for the guy that is the most threat, since he'll harm them if they don't vote for him. So is it really a fair election? This is how I see the Hmong people and Hmong organizations. It may be with good intentions but the people aren't ready for it and might not ever be.

2976
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Exposing Hmong 18 Counsel Clan
« on: June 04, 2013, 01:38:29 PM »
You are only as strong as your weakest link.

18 Xeem is only as smart as its dumbest rule...and there are plenty.  I applaud them for their ideology.  Their execution and application are a complete failure.  If I was a better human being, I would advised them of their near-sidedness.  I would also volunteer to help polish some of their rough policies.  Unfortunate, I am a horrible person whose only happiness comes from ridiculing idiotic organizations.  Pray for me; maybe one day I will be the change that you've hoped for me.

Have you ever worked with Hmong people though? You can't apply something that isn't the mentality of the people you serve. This is the biggest reason why organizations are ineffective in our communities. Our people do not understand organizations. We have never functioned that way.

2977
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Exposing Hmong 18 Counsel Clan
« on: June 04, 2013, 01:35:26 PM »
See, this is what you forget.  You're thinking too selfishly here.  Think about the people that are not as educated as you are.  The people that don't know how to exercise their civil rights or know american laws/regulations.  They will turn to 18 counsel and be exploited under it's ignorance. 

Any educated person will never use Hmong 18 counsel as a solution.  Only people with lower education.  This is not to put those people down.  It is our duty to make it an awareness and that 18 counsel should not exploit these people.  They should assist them as intended.

If not for 18 Xeem to help these less than average intelligent Hmong folks then who else? The educated ones? Where are they to be found? Go ahead and make people aware but where is your alternative?

I don't say that as to support 18 Xeem. I say it because you have provided nothing else so you aren't a solution either for people that do have problems.

You see, there are so many educated individuals giving their opinions but at the same time none of them have better solutions. Not only that but they don't even plan to observe their culture so what value is their opinion anyway, know what I mean? It's like complaining about America but you don't even make an effort to show up at town hall meetings and you don't vote.

2978
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Exposing Hmong 18 Counsel Clan
« on: June 04, 2013, 12:48:37 PM »
*hint*
She lives in Sheboygan
 :-X

I remember when there was talk about voting her in.

2979
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Exposing Hmong 18 Counsel Clan
« on: June 04, 2013, 11:17:20 AM »
As you may already know from your in-laws, the Hmong men carry the clan name. A woman doesn't. So, a woman cannot represent a clan. She has two with her, of course: her biological clan and her husband's clan. But her father or brother represents her biological clan; her husband or his father represent her husband's clan. She's really aced out.

That's the traditional way. Today, I think women should be able to be on the Council and represent a particular clan. Just a matter of respect for all three genders--male, female, and gay.

Which clan will the woman represent? Her husband's? Certainly not. What happens if she divorces? Her father's clan? Certainly not, if she is married into another clan.

You guys and gals blow this 18 Xeem out of proportion. That's the real problem right there. By accusing them to have political agenda, many of you do the same thing by trying to put your own cause into it (like pulling the gender disparity card). 18 Xeem is nothing more than a collection of representative s from the recognized clans. They establish standards across the board so that in the event cases escalate to the American court system, the non-Hmong legal system has something to go by in their rulings. Since it's expected that each Hmong person is going to have their own version (normally the one that plays to his/her advantage), the American courts need somewhat of a guidebook for lack of a better term.

2980
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Marriage within same clan
« on: May 10, 2013, 12:14:35 AM »
You know that marrying same last name is a social taboo, but who have difficulty to understand that social taboo is established by societ. Societ is established by the people. Therefore, if societ is progressed to a higher level, social taboos that don't make sense, such as this subject, should be dropped. Yes, this matter might make sense way back then when Hmong lived in the mountain as scattered, isolated, and small villages, but it doesn't make sense in this modern life here in America. Therefore, it's up to the people to lift it. Changing on the personal level doe not lift the taboo. On the other hand, this taboo confuses Hmong that since they can't marry someone with the same last name, then it's right to marry someone with blood related but different last name.

You are always wrong with your judgment, so stop judging and start listening. No, we are not here on a mission to be white. We are here on a mission to modify our culture to be an "organized culture", and that's it. Therefor, it's not about you and me that can do it. It's about everyone getting involved to get it done.

I do respect your perspective, so don't piss off. Yes, we are here to respond to each other, and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess all I can say to you is that if you want to stay with the same perch, it seems to be your only option, then that's ok. I have wing, and I have multiple perches, so I will fly to perch on the one that suits my current life. After all, we will just have to cast our vote some day. I'm tired of talking to people who don't see the value of change, so I will just leave it here.

But you're not listening.

What I'm saying is that this issue you bring up is of very little concern to the Hmong. The majority of Hmong people are fine dating outside their own clan name. They don't have problems finding a mate from a different clan. Furthermore, because our social structure is a clan system it makes perfect sense not to court within your own clan name. It's a non-issue.


 

2981
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Is the Hmong culture dying?
« on: May 09, 2013, 11:53:30 PM »
BNM,

I've read several of your posts, here and in the faith forum, and you sound like a genuinely good and intelligent person. And you often espouse the view of maintaining the Hmong culture, practices, ways, etc. But what I don't understand is how can you, as a Christian, be able to compromise and reconcile the foreign Christian beliefs with ours and still consider yourself preserving Hmong culture?

You and others as Christians,,,, do you still;

1) noj xyoo tshiab and change up the xwmkab every year?
2) call upon the ancestors to come and join your feast (New Years or other special occasions)?
3) call upon your grandfather(s) to help guide you when "ntuj tsaus nti'?
4) practice the one month caiv for just giving birth and also hu plig for your child?
5) accept, practice and/or participate in ua neeb, whether it's for yourself or for others?
6) house blessing?
7) occasionally hu yus tus menyuam (or whoever) tus plig rov qab los when s/he is sick?
8.) ua nyuj dab for father?
9) lwv qaib and other practices for weddings?
10) raws Hmoob kevcai for funerals? (Very important aspect right here).
11) believe in Hmong after life? Reincarnation?

Those above are just the things I can think of for which Christians won't do anymore once they convert. There might be more that I missed.

And worst, the hardcore Christians, like those CMA, will even come back to attack the Hmong ways. So how can they be Hmong when they seek to eradicate big and important portion(s) of the Hmong culture?

Some of the things you listed are the religious aspects of the Hmong and not necessarily cultural. There are many things on that list that my family practices because it is a Hmong custom. Being a Hmong should not interfere with being a Christian nor vice versa. The two should enhance each other until they are one. Just as following Shamanism should not be separate from being a Hmong or vice versa.

What Hmong Christians miss is that an Italian Christian is not necessarily following the same traditions as an Irish Christian. They may read from the same Bible but they insert their own customs to how they magnify the same God, which they both believe in.




2982
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Is the Hmong culture dying?
« on: May 07, 2013, 09:53:46 PM »
Nobody knows if there's an "afterlife". I'm not even positive if there is a Hmong realm where the ancestors wait for us. All we know is of this current world we live in. And thus we must make all the preparations to ensure that the Hmong way of life exists onwards and for a very, very long time for future Hmong generations to come.

Btw, you are one of those "white is right" ppl I'm talking about.

I'm a Christian and yet I am very opposed to the way Hmong church leaders attack the culture and teach their congregations to abandon everything that is Hmong. Trust me when I say that I have voiced my perspective many, many times. One cannot be a Christian or even understand it unless it is through one's own culture.

But it's not just the leaders because they are only giving in to what many congregation members want. This is why I said that in the next few years Hmong churches will only exist as a social playground. Those who are well-versed in English will opt for American churches instead where their faith can actually grow and they will learn about their faith. I could write a whole topic about this but that is another thread. 

2983
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Marriage within same clan
« on: May 05, 2013, 08:40:43 PM »

No, you don't, and that's exactly what you like; therefore, you are against the change. If you can point to me a single modern society on earth that practice this kind of backward belief, than I will change my position. This kind of culture is found among indigenous people. This is America and the year 2013. In addiction, You keep repeating that I have not have any compelling arguments regarding this topic, but the same thing can be said to you as well. On the other hand, you keep suggesting to people who favor the change to go ahead and violate the norm and live with the consequences. This clearly show your weak ability to judge what's acceptable and what's not in society.

I can argue with you in detail about eating cat and dog and the color of the wedding dress, but these are different topics, another indication that your judgement is as weak as the way you related marrying same clan to these topics.


Your case is weak because you can't form a compelling argument as to why this practice holds back the progress of Hmong. You state that it is primitive so illustrate how it is. Comparing it to another culture is invalid because every culture has their own nuances.

The problem with many of you is that you're on a mission to be white or whatever and if something isn't white then it's backwards and primitive. It's funny that while you think this social taboo is primitive, a white person wouldn't even think the same.

Truthfully, this subject is of no concern but since you bring it up we're just responding.

2984
Hmong Stories / Re: Some Scary Stories Just For Y'all
« on: May 04, 2013, 10:38:28 PM »
GS,

I read every story. Super creepy! Got any more?

2985
Hmong Culture & History / Re: Marriage within same clan
« on: May 04, 2013, 09:52:26 PM »
Count me on your side when it comes to these issues. I can understand why OG don't want change, but I can't understand why those who have college education don't want change. I can't wait to the day I see these negative aspects of our culture gone.

Because college-educated people actually realize that this isn't a concern.  ::) :2funny: There's nothing broken with this practice and you haven't made a compelling case against it other then bringing up an irrelevant point. I suppose you also think eating cats or dogs should be illegal for people living in other countries that happen to consider them both a delicacy.  :2funny:

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