PebHmong Discussion Forum

General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: TheAfterLife on November 02, 2013, 08:12:50 PM

Title: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: TheAfterLife on November 02, 2013, 08:12:50 PM
I have debated against Hmong Shamanists on this website for quite awhile. Almost none of them can bring a good philosophical evidence to prove their logic is true. Also, about all of the truths in Shamanism are relative since there is no God in that realm. It all goes back to Buddhism where who is the mediator that will send them to Heaven or Hell. Some of this beliefs comes from China since I know that FACT that in the ancient times, all Chinese and other asians were pagans. Therefore, if there are other Shamanists who would stand and fight for their belief, I would like to see your philosophical evidence to disprove Christianity by its doctrine, not by the Christians and their behavior.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hmongperson on November 03, 2013, 08:18:30 PM
There is no need to debate with one who's cup is already full. Actually, it is not a debate at all but a shouting match. In a debate nobody wins or loses, if there is a winner or a loser then you are not debating but arguing. Please do not try to taint the sacredness that is debate. A debate, as dictated by the ancients Greeks, is a quest for knowledge. Two people have a debate to have a better, deeper knowledge of their own respective ideas and belief. Socrates taught his pupils through debate, trying to prove someone wrong is not debating it is arguing. Kind of hard to take someone seriously if they cannot even fathom the medium they are using to express themselves is it?

Shamanism does not have any set, or at least not any uniformed, philosophical principle. Like every religion, it has to be taken by itself, not in comparison with anything else. Trying to compare two religion is like blindfolding two people and having them feel the same thing and then having them explain it. Like the story of the blind village and the elephant.

A belief in a religion requires faith, blind faith. We do not know what happens when we die, but we trust in our respective faith that what we were told in life would be true. Who knows if it is, nobody has lived to tell the tale, pun intended. Thus, it requires blind faith, trust that what we are being told about what happens when we die is true.

Jesus Christ, if he was real, taught that Christians should be accepting of other religions because he knows Christianity is not the only religion out there. He taught that one has to win converts over through goodwill and kindness, not ridicule and force. You, my friend, have stray too far from the correct path. Jesus would not approve.

 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Wi_sweetguy on November 03, 2013, 09:23:01 PM
I don't think MOST HMONG SHAMANISTS cares about religion.  We are bored spiritually and with our sense will guide us to enlightenment.  If seem like you're the only one who cares about religion.  You are really hurting your own race.  Shame on you for trying to create a religion war.  So far I haven't seen any attack on Christianity in here, but you.  You're the black sheep, the problem maker, the bully, and the outcast.  Hmong culture has guided Hmongs through the generations, the decades and we were able to maintain our traditions, cultures, customs, our peace and our survival.  Don't be someone you're not or wannabe because you're making a fool out of yourself...... ....... ;)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: MovKuam on November 05, 2013, 12:45:18 PM
you guys are funny.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hmongperson on November 05, 2013, 01:22:22 PM
I only bully the Hmong Shaman by shoving 2+2 is four.

I am like Bryan, the dog from Family Guy, being a self-righteous jerk by telling you that the stair isn't a slide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6nUhpYwRs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6nUhpYwRs#)

So, how am I the black sheep when I told you the reality of truth? I hate to step on your toes, but I must. In God's world, there is no such thing as race. It is just ONE. By the time when Shamanism goes extinct was caused by science and Christians. I see ignorance of not accepting knowledge and therefore, I find shamanism to be more like North Korea, not accepting ANYTHING but have an empire of one of those ancient dynasty.
Yet you cry when an atheist tells you 2+2=4, and that 2+2 does not equal 5 just because your God said it does...The irony.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: BoredatWork on November 07, 2013, 03:51:55 PM
I only bully the Hmong Shaman by shoving 2+2 is four.

I am like Bryan, the dog from Family Guy, being a self-righteous jerk by telling you that the stair isn't a slide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6nUhpYwRs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6nUhpYwRs#)

So, how am I the black sheep when I told you the reality of truth? I hate to step on your toes, but I must. In God's world, there is no such thing as race. It is just ONE. By the time when Shamanism goes extinct was caused by science and Christians. I see ignorance of not accepting knowledge and therefore, I find shamanism to be more like North Korea, not accepting ANYTHING but have an empire of one of those ancient dynasty.

Well I'm pretty sure if you got to a KKK church they will tell you there are different races.  Until you can prove that the KKK church believes what you believe it doesn't make sense because the bible is open to whoever is interpreting those words.  Knowledge is something that can be proven, until you can prove GOD exists with facts it's really just a belief(theory).  At the end of the day this is America, everyone believe what you want to believe because it's a free country! 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Wi_sweetguy on November 08, 2013, 02:01:10 AM
You know what.  Ask me if I was afraid of going to hell.  I bet you are so afraid of hell that you will try to do whatever you think is right such as ethnical cleansing to set you to heaven.  For most of us people, we already know where we are going.  We don't need the church to tell us where we are going.  I'll tell you where I am going.  I am going to the place where I was born, I am going to see my parents, my ancestors then when the time comes.  I'm am going to the portal or recarnation.  That is where I will be going.  FYI.  I heard that god followers and shamanists both go the same direction.

 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Wi_sweetguy on November 08, 2013, 02:08:57 AM
I only bully the Hmong Shaman by shoving 2+2 is four.

I am like Bryan, the dog from Family Guy, being a self-righteous jerk by telling you that the stair isn't a slide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6nUhpYwRs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6nUhpYwRs#)

So, how am I the black sheep when I told you the reality of truth? I hate to step on your toes, but I must. In God's world, there is no such thing as race. It is just ONE. By the time when Shamanism goes extinct was caused by science and Christians. I see ignorance of not accepting knowledge and therefore, I find shamanism to be more like North Korea, not accepting ANYTHING but have an empire of one of those ancient dynasty.

Read this
"So, how am I the black sheep when I told you the reality of truth? I hate to step on your toes, but I must. In the Spiritual's world, there is no such thing as race. It is just ONE. By the time when God goes extinct was caused by science and spirituality. I see ignorance of not accepting knowledge and therefore, I find Christianity to be more like North Korea, not accepting ANYTHING but have an empire of one of those ancient dynasty." Very True
I find it that most shamanists are very flexible with other religions and can co-operate with any race out there.  Christianity wise are always looking at race.  Most Africans are Christians, but yet they are dislike by most white Christians.  Tell me why now. Come join me and my spirituality Afterlife.  You might be able to go see your ancestors.  Then you will know that you have reached the land of your ancestors.  The ones with the happy face are not your ancestors, but the ones with the sad frown smile are your ancestors.  To the place where you were born, the shirt you were born with, the path all Hmongs goes.  Then you will see the path we must follow.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: HUNG TU LO on November 08, 2013, 09:40:30 AM
By the time when Shamanism goes extinct was caused by science and Christians...

You mean like how 1 billion Chinese are still non-(organized)religious and still practice ancestral worship? The first dynasty was established ~200BC. Hmong have been around since then as well. Here we are in 2013.

It's ironic you should mention that Hmong animism/shamanism will go extinct and yet, you fail to realize that all religions, including your beloved Christianity, and religious-like belief systems are all in danger of going the way of the dinosaurs. Modern societies and the future will move more towards a secular model. I shit you not, your children and/or grandchildren will not be wishing to be baptized or believe in the Holy Spirit. And guess what...there's nothing wrong with that.

Even European people are having a renaissance of sort to rediscover the pagan traditions that are now lost. This was the land of the crusades and currently, the modern "Mecca" for Christianity.

You don't see the reality. But then again, I wouldn't expect someone like you to be interested in reality. A highly evolved, super-intelligent lifeform known as modern homo sapien, believing that there is a single supreme creator God and that the only way to God is to accept that it bore a child in a virgin woman and become Christian? If alien lifeforms were to come across us today, they would marvel at our technological advancements and human rights policies, but laugh to death at our religious zealous.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: IB THIAB NEEJ on November 08, 2013, 11:44:35 PM
TAL,

Remember that Christianity teaches grace, not contempt.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hmongperson on November 09, 2013, 03:00:48 AM
Where on earth did you find that?
Not on earth, on PH.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: night912 on November 10, 2013, 05:26:09 PM
I only bully the Hmong Shaman by shoving 2+2 is four.

2+2 doesn't always equal 4. Take for example, 1+1=1, in the case of Mary (1) + Roman soldier (1) = Jesus (1)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: night912 on November 10, 2013, 09:28:26 PM
Wow, your believing such in a big cult. Even Dr. Eben Alexander, a nearologist have seen Heaven after he died. Again, I am showing philosophical proof AND spiritual proof that God exist. If you don't wanna worship Him, that's fine. But just remember the consequences when you meet Him. Because you can't even PROVE shamanisticall y of where did we come from? Again, I find you to be an atheist, not a shaman. If you want to go atheist, then be one. Again, you're arguing from an atheist point of view, but not a shaman point of view. Therefore, you have lost because it's a red herring.

Dr. Eben Alexander's experience has been criticized by other neurologists. This however isn't saying that he is lying or not. We will never know. I haven't read the book yet, but it sounds interesting so I went and looked at some reviews.

After reading some reviews of the book, I noticed something familiar. His description of the experience sounds a lot like what my dad told me when I was a kid. He was telling me of the Hmong traditions and beliefs. Alexander's experience of seeing green fields and being guided by an angelic being. He met his sister in the afterlife. He even talks about reincarnation. This all sounds like the Hmong traditional belief.

Dr. Alexander, to my knowledge, has no idea of Hmong beliefs and yet he wrote a book about it. For him not to know the Hmong belief, and experience what they believed in is really something. There might be some truth to Hmong beliefs after all.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: asadfg on November 10, 2013, 10:35:15 PM
I have debated against Hmong Shamanists on this website for quite awhile. Almost none of them can bring a good philosophical evidence to prove their logic is true. Also, about all of the truths in Shamanism are relative since there is no God in that realm. It all goes back to Buddhism where who is the mediator that will send them to Heaven or Hell. Some of this beliefs comes from China since I know that FACT that in the ancient times, all Chinese and other asians were pagans. Therefore, if there are other Shamanists who would stand and fight for their belief, I would like to see your philosophical evidence to disprove Christianity by its doctrine, not by the Christians and their behavior.



Do you feel insecure about your beliefs that you need to put down others to make yourself feel more validated?    :idiot2:

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on December 19, 2013, 10:23:16 PM
I only bully the Hmong Shaman by shoving 2+2 is four.


What 2+2 is four??? And all this  time I thought is was three. Dam...LOL J/K.. I couldn't help but this was calling for a joke. Hee

2+2=3. 1 for GOD the father. 2. the son Jesus and 3. for the HOLY SPIRIT.  HAHA My GPA jumped up to 4.1 Yeh..
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Wi_sweetguy on December 20, 2013, 03:19:41 AM
What 2+2 is four??? And all this  time I thought is was three. Dam...LOL J/K.. I couldn't help but this was calling for a joke. Hee

2+2=3. 1 for GOD the father. 2. the son Jesus and 3. for the HOLY SPIRIT.  HAHA My GPA jumped up to 4.1 Yeh..

haha..LOL.  O0 O0
I think afterlife is too serious about religion. Man he need to get lay or something. SOmebody help him please.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: minorcharacter on January 10, 2014, 01:00:46 AM
Declaring yourself the winner of such an arbitrary topic of usually the sign of a sore loser.  Don't be so butt hurt, man.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 10, 2014, 01:36:03 AM
I'm actually very curious as to why there aren't more Hmong atheist raising suspicions about Shamanism/Animism/Ancestral Worship and putting a stop to it.

First of all, our old Hmong beliefs should not have any logical sense to the atheist. It can't. It shouldn't take a Hmong Christian to post up this thread but the atheist who would no doubt ask the Shaman followers where the foundation of such spiritual practices began and why.

Secondly, our old Hmong beliefs are more dangerous to the atheist than atheists are aware of. It is the very fact that Shamanism lays low key and under the radar that makes them more harmful to Hmong. Why? Well if the atheists knew anything about Hmong cultural and traditional practices, they would know it is all rooted in our old Hmong beliefs. After all, it is our old Hmong beliefs that exclude females from carrying the clan name because it is believed the house spirit of the clan remains with men only. This leads to things like "bride price" because the woman must undergo monetary exchange in order to be accepted into her husband's clan (his house spirit). Which then leads to the reason why funerals become a sore for female widowers/divorcees/spinsters, etc. Things can get messy when the husband's clan doesn't give her a proper funeral and so on because she won't belong anywhere nor does she have the proper spirit to accompany her.

These are just a few examples of how old Hmong beliefs dictate Hmong life. And if atheists are all about the here and now and progressive movement then they, above anybody else, should be the ones to address Shamanistic and old Hmong practices.

But naturally, I don't see any atheists having the guts to do so. Or perhaps they really are just ignorant to the fact that they've been fighting against the wrong religion all along. They think if people can just be more Americanized then these things will sort itself out. Little do they know it has a lot to do with religious/spiritual beliefs.

I've stopped having high expectations for Hmong a long time ago. Ua dabtsis ces ua rov qab thiab tsis paub qhov tseeb li. Tsuas paub mus xyaum luag tej txuj tabsis twb tsis paub qhov tseeb tseeb. Mus qhuas qhuas meskas tabsis tsis lees paub tias meskas lub tswvyim twb yog los ntawm lawv txoj kev ntseeg Yexus (yes, even cov meskas uas claim to be atheist los lawv lub tswvyim yeej tseem yog los ntawm Yexus cov philosophy).

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: minorcharacter on January 10, 2014, 01:51:25 AM
Haha. I'm pretty positive you don't know what an atheist is. Keep going though, you seem to be on a roll.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 10, 2014, 10:07:43 AM
Haha. I'm pretty positive you don't know what an atheist is. Keep going though, you seem to be on a roll.

Sounds like you don't know what an atheist is, especially a Hmong atheist. If they were actually concerned at all about the Hmong then they would recognize that Shamanism is a bigger threat to the progressive state of the Hmong than Christianity.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on January 10, 2014, 01:28:56 PM
Sounds like you don't know what an atheist is, especially a Hmong atheist. If they were actually concerned at all about the Hmong then they would recognize that Shamanism is a bigger threat to the progressive state of the Hmong than Christianity.
Wat a threat.. HOLY SPIRIT of Mary. Just like how the meeka was to the Indians. wat was tat. their most holy place and the meekas got scare  and thought they were doing black magic and open fire and killed all those innocent ppl. women and children's.... My history is a bit cloudy.  You ppl are funny. But it makes for a good GPA. At how smart some HmnG are.
All i know is wen we die.. It's Game Over..
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 10, 2014, 02:30:03 PM
Wat a threat.. HOLY SPIRIT of Mary. Just like how the meeka was to the Indians. wat was tat. their most holy place and the meekas got scare  and thought they were doing black magic and open fire and killed all those innocent ppl. women and children's.... My history is a bit cloudy.  You ppl are funny. But it makes for a good GPA. At how smart some HmnG are.
All i know is wen we die.. It's Game Over..

Christianity actually has a lot of influence in western culture so it surprises me to hear Hmong atheists all riled up over it, especially since most Hmong atheists consider themselves progressive and proponents of American culture. Sometimes I feel like they're only against Christianity because in the last decades American pop culture has really turned against religion and the church. If Americans, particularly Liberals, weren't so bent up on waging a war on the church I don't even believe these Hmong atheists would bat an eyelash.

It seems that the Hmong atheist doesn't feel threatened because they assume that these next generations of Hmong are all going to be Americanized so Shamanism will just die out without them having to do any work. We all know that part of practicing Shamanism means being fluent in Hmong to perform the chants involved, and it also takes knowing all the parts. Most kids these days don't even speak Hmong much less understand the parts involved in Shamanistic ceremonies. While the Hmong atheist might have their wish come true, they'll have to battle the church because those same non-speaking Hmong kids are more likely to convert to Christianity. That must be where the real fear comes in for Hmong atheists.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on January 12, 2014, 08:13:22 PM
Since I'm too LAZY to look up the meaning of atheists.
Could you do me the honor and tell me what that word means???

Remember what Mofasa said to Simba????? Remember who you are!!!!! You're still the color of HmnG. HEEhee
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 12, 2014, 08:43:26 PM
Since I'm too LAZY to look up the meaning of atheists.
Could you do me the honor and tell me what that word means???

Remember what Mofasa said to Simba????? Remember who you are!!!!! You're still the color of HmnG. HEEhee

An atheist is a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in gods or a God. We know this does not include someone who observes Shamanism because the Hmong do very much believe in a creator of life and the natural world as we understand it.

The Hmong atheist is very funny to me though because if they stand by their logic then Shamanism cannot be possible, yet won't speak against it. However, they heavily criticize Christianity even though everything they follow is heavily rooted in a white, Christian culture. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on January 12, 2014, 09:02:40 PM
So let ask you another question.
When you are @ church and listening to the pastor preach on the Podium, what do you learn from it??
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 12, 2014, 09:40:23 PM
So let ask you another question.
When you are @ church and listening to the pastor preach on the Podium, what do you learn from it??

What does this have to do with my posts or even the thread? If you simply can't provide answers to the OP or comment why Shamanism isn't alarming to the Hmong atheist (as it should), then take your anti-Christian hate elsewhere. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 12, 2014, 09:58:42 PM
I have debated against Hmong Shamanists on this website for quite awhile. Almost none of them can bring a good philosophical evidence to prove their logic is true. Also, about all of the truths in Shamanism are relative since there is no God in that realm. It all goes back to Buddhism where who is the mediator that will send them to Heaven or Hell. Some of this beliefs comes from China since I know that FACT that in the ancient times, all Chinese and other asians were pagans. Therefore, if there are other Shamanists who would stand and fight for their belief, I would like to see your philosophical evidence to disprove Christianity by its doctrine, not by the Christians and their behavior.

I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?



Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 12, 2014, 11:00:18 PM
I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?





Traditional Hmong religion is a combination of different spiritual beliefs. Shamanism is the healing practice, animism sort or provides structure for morality, and then there is ancestral worship. But Shamanism is more than just healing. There's a complex structure to it as well. Just ask those that heavily practice it. And I mean the ones that hang up the xwmkab in the house, the ones that sau sub annually, and so on so forth. It has to do with bringing fortune into the family while driving out the bad.

My husband and I were discussing this a few days ago and my question was is it practical to be Americanized while practicing Shamanism? What I meant by this is that eventually the younger Hmong are going to stop performing marriage and funeral rites the traditional way among other traditional practices associated with Shamanism. For example, they're not going to know how to lwm qaib when they bring their new bride into the house. But let's say they still hang xwmkab because they consider themselves Shamanistic. What are the consequences?

Shamanism is believed to be a very powerful spiritual belief. Those who do not practice it correctly are bound to find themselves in conflict not only with the spiritual realm but even in the earthly realm. You can't just hang up xwmkab in the house and consider it a done deal. That's not how Shamanism works. So for those who think they can slip by being Shamanistic but not do the work, they will be in for a surprise.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 13, 2014, 12:17:21 AM
Sure, there are tiny elements of shamanism that mixes with animism and ancestor-worshiping. But what do the other two have that's religion-related that shamanism doesn't? Can anyone just pray to Siv Yis for either punishment or help? No. Siv Yis actually selects a particular group for his cult.  Unless you are in the cult and picked by him, you have no chance of communicating with him. But you can communicate with the spirits of the gulleys and your ancestors without being picked. That's like praying to God in Chriatianity or to Allah in Muslim, etc. God works on both the living and the dead. Siv Yis works against only the devil, not against a bad living human...Hm...s omething's missing in him here.

Traditional Hmong religion is a combination of different spiritual beliefs. Shamanism is the healing practice, animism sort or provides structure for morality, and then there is ancestral worship. But Shamanism is more than just healing. There's a complex structure to it as well. Just ask those that heavily practice it. And I mean the ones that hang up the xwmkab in the house, the ones that sau sub annually, and so on so forth. It has to do with bringing fortune into the family while driving out the bad.

My husband and I were discussing this a few days ago and my question was is it practical to be Americanized while practicing Shamanism? What I meant by this is that eventually the younger Hmong are going to stop performing marriage and funeral rites the traditional way among other traditional practices associated with Shamanism. For example, they're not going to know how to lwm qaib when they bring their new bride into the house. But let's say they still hang xwmkab because they consider themselves Shamanistic. What are the consequences?

Shamanism is believed to be a very powerful spiritual belief. Those who do not practice it correctly are bound to find themselves in conflict not only with the spiritual realm but even in the earthly realm. You can't just hang up xwmkab in the house and consider it a done deal. That's not how Shamanism works. So for those who think they can slip by being Shamanistic but not do the work, they will be in for a surprise.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hnubqub on January 13, 2014, 10:07:49 PM
(too many books!)  but this is one that's on my radar, one that I would read (no audiobook).  every Hmong person should read this.  Wade Davis is pretty awesome.

TAL and BNM, if you truly are interested in the questions you ask, I hope that you check out this book.  And let us know what you think.

http://www.amazon.com/Wayfinders-Ancient-Wisdom-Matters-Lecture/dp/0887847668 (http://www.amazon.com/Wayfinders-Ancient-Wisdom-Matters-Lecture/dp/0887847668)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: joot on January 14, 2014, 10:35:53 AM
I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?


Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hnubqub on January 14, 2014, 06:58:18 PM

Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice.

First, I want to say his thread is a great conversation, an important one.  There is a lot of confusion with this subject because people are debating from different planes.  Not only that, they are often confused about what is culture and what is religion.  I'm no anthropologist, but my take is this: Shamanism has deep roots in culture. It's organic and comes from a people's adaptation to their environment.  It's an accepted way of doing things (wedding, funerals) with stories behind them.  These stories are not only the voice of our people, but they are the building blocks of culture and identity. 

Christianity (which used to be Jewish stories and culture) has been processed, packaged, and divorced from the Jews.  The difference is eating rice from the straw vs eating rice cereal from a box.  Except in this case, you're not even eating rice, your own plant anymore.  You're eating from a different culture, like wheat.  You're eating bread.  Wonder bread.

Now on a different plane of debate, the scientific one of whether shaman and Christian stories are true.  No.  They would not pass the scientific method.  But no scientist would even bother putting these stories through the scientific method because these stories are not about scientific truth.  They're about humanity. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hnubqub on January 14, 2014, 07:02:35 PM
Wade Davis.  This guy is the real deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHo1untn1zI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHo1untn1zI#)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on January 14, 2014, 07:20:36 PM
I think you and those responding to you must first determine if shamanism is actually a religion or if it's just a healing practice.

I know many people don't listen to me when I say shamanism isn't the Hmong's religion but just a healing practice/tradition much like a psychological healing practice in other cultures. Sure, religion heals, too, but does religion end there?




You just hit the nail on the head.. i tink that wat I'm suppose to say Rite???
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on January 14, 2014, 07:23:11 PM
First, I want to say his thread is a great conversation, an important one.  There is a lot of confusion with this subject because people are debating from different planes.  Not only that, they are often confused about what is culture and what is religion.  I'm no anthropologist, but my take is this: Shamanism has deep roots in culture. It's organic and comes from a people's adaptation to their environment.  It's an accepted way of doing things (wedding, funerals) with stories behind them.  These stories are not only the voice of our people, but they are the building blocks of culture and identity. 

Christianity (which used to be Jewish stories and culture) has been processed, packaged, and divorced from the Jews.  The difference is eating rice from the straw vs eating rice cereal from a box.  Except in this case, you're not even eating rice, your own plant anymore.  You're eating from a different culture, like wheat.  You're eating bread.  Wonder bread.

Now on a different plane of debate, the scientific one of whether shaman and Christian stories are true.  No.  They would not pass the scientific method.  But no scientist would even bother putting these stories through the scientific method because these stories are not about scientific truth.  They're about humanity. 
Best interpretation I've heard through out this strange thread.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on January 14, 2014, 07:31:12 PM
What does this have to do with my posts or even the thread? If you simply can't provide answers to the OP or comment why Shamanism isn't alarming to the Hmong atheist (as it should), then take your anti-Christian hate elsewhere. 
Not that I'm hating the Christian nor am I an anti-christ...People who goes to chruch and claims that they know GOD... In Truth is we all don't know GOD.. What he has planned for us. But When people talk all this and that about what they know about Christ, because they really don't know anything but run their mouth like they know all too much.. to hide their small mind.

I don't really think that there is such a word in the HmnG language about HmnG Atheist.... that word came from the Ameeks text...
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on January 14, 2014, 07:41:45 PM
To explain the trinity is simple. By comparing it, water has 3 distinction; gas, liquid, and solid. The truth is, God is like that. He is the son, the father, and the holy spirit.
Exactly... So 2+2 can't be 4..hehehe...
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 16, 2014, 11:35:14 PM
Not that I'm hating the Christian nor am I an anti-christ...People who goes to chruch and claims that they know GOD... In Truth is we all don't know GOD.. What he has planned for us. But When people talk all this and that about what they know about Christ, because they really don't know anything but run their mouth like they know all too much.. to hide their small mind.

I don't really think that there is such a word in the HmnG language about HmnG Atheist.... that word came from the Ameeks text...

I'm not here to attack Shamanism but rather here to ask Hmong atheists why they hold a double standard when it's actually Shamanism that has shaped the Hmong's way of life and values. This way of life actually contradicts everything they believe in such as Women's Rights, Gay Rights, marriage within same clan name, etc.

My conclusion is that many of these Hmong atheists and white wannabes know shiit about their own Hmong culture and belief system. Even Hmong Shamanism who are for the causes that I mentioned should be against their own religion. How can you be Shamanistic and for "Women's Rights?" How can you be Shamanistic and for marriage within same clan? How can you be Shamanistic and Pro-Choice? The  Hmong believe so heavily in karma and curses. In fact, they deeply-rooted in Animism is the belief that EVERYTHING has a spirit/soul. So to claim that a fetus doesn't have one goes against traditional Hmong beliefs. So before these people start attacking Christianity, they need to take a look at the religion they're practicing and get educated about it. Just because Shamanism doesn't rally together to create a political voice does NOT mean they don't have their own teachings. Young people nowadays are just too ignorant to know what they are.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 16, 2014, 11:39:44 PM

Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice. 

joot,

They don't hold the same standards because they don't know shiit about Shamanism to really know what it's all about. If they actually educated themselves and understood that it's more than just "healing", they would be so against it. They wonder why their parents' generation thinks so differently than from them? Duh, it's because their parents' generation are fully Shamanistic. There are values and teachings with the territory as well, maybe not taught in a church like Christianity but trust me, there are.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 17, 2014, 12:29:28 AM

Dude, I thought you were smarter than that.  So you are saying Shamanism is just a healing practice like acupuncture?  And there is no spiritual element to it?  Really?  Ua neeb is more than that...

Believe_N_Me in her original post has a valid point.  Why does Hmong Atheist in here do not use the same standards/logical reasoning for their view of Shamanism as they do toward Christianity?  All I see from the replies is more "attacks" on Christianity.  Shamanism is more than just a healing practice.  There is an element of the supernatural in the practice. 

Duh, re-read my statements.  Just because something is spiritual or psychological doesn't mean it's a religion.

People who are going to talk about religion must first know what it is. Obviously, many haven't paid attention to what it is but just takes things how they feel like.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 17, 2014, 12:51:55 AM
joot,

They don't hold the same standards because they don't know shiit about Shamanism to really know what it's all about. If they actually educated themselves and understood that it's more than just "healing", they would be so against it. They wonder why their parents' generation thinks so differently than from them? Duh, it's because their parents' generation are fully Shamanistic. There are values and teachings with the territory as well, maybe not taught in a church like Christianity but trust me, there are.

Duh.  We are Hmong. We know the Hmong traditions--past and present and even future and those on the side, too.

So, an American psychologist is a religious figure then. She can heal spiritually, too. ;D

First question for you two--BNM and Joot--is what is religion? And second is: how does shamanism fit into that definition while animism and ancestor-worshiping may or may not?

Good luck!
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 17, 2014, 01:05:29 AM
Duh.  We are Hmong. We know the Hmong traditions--past and present and even future and those on the side, too.

So, an American psychologist is a religious figure then. She can heal spiritually, too. ;D

First question for you two--BNM and Joot--is what is religion? And second is: how does shamanism fit into that definition while animism and ancestor-worshiping may or may not?

Good luck!

Shamanism is a religion because it umbrellas a variety of spiritual practices and beliefs (animism, ancestral worship, etc.). Just because it isn't an "organized" religion or considered one of the world's major modern religion doesn't mean it isn't one.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 17, 2014, 01:40:53 AM
Interesting. I appreciate the elaborate explanations.

LOL! Let me add to this pagan guy.

Reporter, shaman has no foundation or any organized doctrine ever since it was practice in the stone age. Look man, we are living in a modern era and the only religion that outlasted than your religion's pop. is Monotheism, Buddhism, and Atheism. It's sad to see that your people aren't converting as much people as the Christians since Shamanism doesn't teach that. Also, shamanism doesn't teach the origin of life. In Christianity, it teaches genesis of how the universe came to be. As a pagan like you, you have to believe that the world isn't round since in the book of Job, God declares that the world is round, flying in thin air without anyone to hold the planet. What this means is that Earth is floating in thin air in space because of gravity. It's moving on its own course. As for a pagan talker, I see no evidence except fallacies that contradicts science and Christianity. Therefore, that's one fallacy.

As for philosophy, it doesn't hold much on good logic either. In fact, everything in shamanism is relative, not objective. Therefore, there is no point of being a good or a bad person. In fact, you can just do nothing like Patrick Star, standing at his house for 5 hrs before going home. This is how I see in relativism is by doing completely nothing like a statue. As for the shamanist who performs the healers are a bunch of conners nowadays who tries to cure cancer by extorting their patience with a lot of money to perform their rituals. As for God, he says this, "If a man is sick in a natural way, take him to the doctor. But if the man is posses, take him to Me." As your religion teaches, I heard a lot of shaman people say that they worship the devil rather than God. Majority would rather go to hell because it is funner down there since there are no rules about having polygamy or raping. It's a sad truth about that since this is WHAT I SEE in Hmong people and other asians as well. If they really want to go to hell, why are they trying to do good deeds in life? By the logic of understanding shamanism, it's nothing more but a confusion that tries to confuse people to believe in a strange way. If shamanism does teach morality, where in what book that says in ANY textbook that it teaches morality from A to Z?
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: joot on January 17, 2014, 02:10:52 AM
Let me make it simple:  Religion is a belief system.  Shamanism is a practice like you said, BUT it is a practice also with a belief system.  Does it not?  Religion does not necessarily have to have God in it.  All forms of shamanism share some basic beliefs.  We are not debating the definition of shamanism.  We are debating whether shamanism also incorporates a belief system in its practice and it does...   

Take away the belief system from shamanism and what we have is just some dude performing a circus act...
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 17, 2014, 01:38:41 PM
Shamanism is a religion because it umbrellas a variety of spiritual practices and beliefs (animism, ancestral worship, etc.). Just because it isn't an "organized" religion or considered one of the world's major modern religion doesn't mean it isn't one.


Hm...
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 17, 2014, 01:40:09 PM
Let me make it simple:  Religion is a belief system.  Shamanism is a practice like you said, BUT it is a practice also with a belief system.  Does it not?  Religion does not necessarily have to have God in it.  All forms of shamanism share some basic beliefs.  We are not debating the definition of shamanism.  We are debating whether shamanism also incorporates a belief system in its practice and it does...   

Take away the belief system from shamanism and what we have is just some dude performing a circus act...


Good to see your definition and explanation of it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 17, 2014, 05:51:10 PM
Let me make it simple:  Religion is a belief system.  Shamanism is a practice like you said, BUT it is a practice also with a belief system.  Does it not?  Religion does not necessarily have to have God in it.  All forms of shamanism share some basic beliefs.  We are not debating the definition of shamanism.  We are debating whether shamanism also incorporates a belief system in its practice and it does...   

Take away the belief system from shamanism and what we have is just some dude performing a circus act...


Exactly! If there wasn't a belief system accompanying Shamanism then the Hmong would not follow it so devoutly. It would be reduced to a man performing a circus act.

Some of these people are trying to apply the western definition of religion to Shamanism so they don't think it is one. However, the Hmong people have always classified Shamanism as their religion.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dlabtsi_os on January 17, 2014, 08:24:14 PM
Let me make it simple:  Religion is a belief system.  Shamanism is a practice like you said, BUT it is a practice also with a belief system.  Does it not?  Religion does not necessarily have to have God in it.  All forms of shamanism share some basic beliefs.  We are not debating the definition of shamanism.  We are debating whether shamanism also incorporates a belief system in its practice and it does...   

Take away the belief system from shamanism and what we have is just some dude performing a circus act...

And that is where both problem and solution arise. Taking away the system and people are baffle. Giving in the system you have a power struggle.

All it comes down to it. Nobody wants to practice something they don't believe in, unless it worked by mysticism or coincidence.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on January 19, 2014, 11:22:29 PM
Exactly! If there wasn't a belief system accompanying Shamanism then the Hmong would not follow it so devoutly. It would be reduced to a man performing a circus act.

Some of these people are trying to apply the western definition of religion to Shamanism so they don't think it is one. However, the Hmong people have always classified Shamanism as their religion.

I understand that misunderstandi ng can happen.


The $600.00 bride price misunderstandi ng has been spreading around the world now.

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hnubqub on January 24, 2014, 03:42:36 PM
joot,

They don't hold the same standards because they don't know shiit about Shamanism to really know what it's all about. If they actually educated themselves and understood that it's more than just "healing", they would be so against it. They wonder why their parents' generation thinks so differently than from them? Duh, it's because their parents' generation are fully Shamanistic. There are values and teachings with the territory as well, maybe not taught in a church like Christianity but trust me, there are.

there lies the question and the problem doesn't it? 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: hnubqub on January 24, 2014, 04:17:45 PM
the hmong youth can tell you a hundred stories from western society.  ask them how many hmong stories they know?  i'd be amazed if they can count the number on more than one hand.  hmong heroes?  even less.  it's not that we don't have any. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Wi_sweetguy on January 25, 2014, 08:44:06 PM

Growing up, I've heard of hmong stories and heroes such as Vang Yim Leeg, Vang Hmong, Nug Toog, Nug Shee Long, Shee Yee and others, but the ones I truly admired after learning about them are Pa Chia Vue, Yang Toua, Cha ChiMeng, Zoog Zua, VP, Toubee lyfound, shong lue and many other great people who have contributed to helping the Hmongs. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: night912 on February 02, 2014, 08:21:44 AM
If people decides to live without God, I don't care.

And this is why you failed as a Christian. You never cared whether or not other people "had, are or will" live with God. You had a conflict within yourself and were just trying to convinced yourself that you "had, are, or will be living with God. You were explaining about God to others on the outside to convinced your inner self, not caring whether they will learn something about God or not.

 At least it's a start. You have finally confessed and starting to move away from the shadow, leaving the stage of denial. The next step will be for you to keep following the light and walk farther away from the shadow. Hopefully you will not turn back towards the shadow back into denial. The shadow will at times try to pull you back to the easy path leading you back to the shadow. The path in front of you will be a difficult road to walk on, and at times you will feel the urge to return to the easy path back to the shadow. But there is no worries, you are not alone. There are people with you along the path. Some may be behind you, besides you or ahead of you. You must learn to accept their help on your journey towards the light. Also learned to help the people around you as you can. If you see a person by you starting to head back to the shadow, you should try to help that person turn back around. It will be easy to let that person walk back or push them back to the shadow, and by doing so, you are also moving with that person  back to the shadow. Remember, most of the time you won't realize that you are doing the pushing. The person  being pushed will move faster back to the shadow, but the pusher will always slowly be moving behind them, making it hard to realize that both of you are heading back in the wrong direction.



All being said, don't be tempted to turn back to the shadow and denial. For example, saying, "....I meant this instead of that...." or if you believe that you should take a step forward with your left foot first, while the person next to you believes you should take a step with your right foot first. One must not deny that both of you are heading towards the light, the means of getting there is just different, but at the end,both of you are aiming for the same goal, reaching the light. At the end, it doesn't matter what belief system someone believes in. But for someone who believes and have reached a close understanding of God, knows that whether somebody is a Christian, Shaman, Jew, Muslim, or anything else, if they are heading towards the light then they are living God's will. And they should care enough for those who have lost their way from the light and help them by leading them back towards the light the way they believe in. EX: an atheist is living God's will by staying on the light path through his belief, science. Everyone lives with Godthrough their individual belief as long as there i. no denial in there inner self.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Reporter on February 03, 2014, 12:56:00 AM
Thank you. At least someone appreciates what the heck is going on here about the Asians nowadays. I rather be a good man with a good reasons why I am a Christian because I choose to follow the light. Have anybody seen the Croods? If you guys have, please, you can see that in every people that will end up like North Korea. The world is not about me today because of the fear of death or dying. The world is about shooting for something impossible to make a dream come true. If people decides to live without God, I don't care. But what I see in people is not trying for something impossible. I know it is risky, but it is worth trying.

 O0
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on February 17, 2014, 10:31:15 AM
A prophet/messiah does not choose to do god's work...God's works chooses that person.

A shaman does not choose to do shamanism...Sh amanism chooses that person.

That is the foundation of it...
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on February 22, 2014, 06:05:15 PM
I just lay the foundation for you.  If you don't get just say you don't get it.   Don't need to say anymore than that.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Wi_sweetguy on February 27, 2014, 03:58:36 AM
I just lay the foundation for you.  If you don't get just say you don't get it.   Don't need to say anymore than that.

Tus phooj ywb VHero, ib txiag tij neeg yim tsis kha siab li.  Lawm lus qho muag blind lawm. hais npau li cas los qhia lus xwb. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 02, 2014, 12:16:55 AM
That's not a foundation. Where's your proof? If you say, "Oh, I got it from a shaman person or that person," then it is irrelevant.

God told me so.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: night912 on March 02, 2014, 02:27:36 PM
You must learn to accept their help on your journey towards the light.

On the bold, not all wants to be in the light. Therefore, they want to be the Scum of Creation, let them be.

You said you don't want to be in the light and want to be the Scum of Creation. I'm not like you. Just because someone is lost in the shadows doesn't mean I am going to just leave them without even trying to help. I'll will still try to bring you to the light

On the bold, not all wants to be in the light. Therefore, they want to be the Scum of Creation, let them be. It is NOT your problem. What you should worrying right now is yourself and other people who you care about.

Note the bold. In response to that, I'll give you a quote that someone wrote in another thread. Since I'm trying to help you but you're not accepting it, I'm using these quotes below. Maybe you might listen to the words.


That's favoritism and it is ILLEGAL!

It's either your FULL 100% all loving person, or a half-A-S-S lover who favors people in his/her desires.

Therefore, for someone who doesn't, I might as well don't even care about that person who doesn't forgive me. If that person wants to be the Scum of Creation, let him/her be. You can't stopped them; only them can stop themselves; therefore, why bother someone who's stone hearted as pharaoh?

So why did Moses bother pharaoh?

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: night912 on March 02, 2014, 02:33:01 PM
Does God care if someone doesn't care about Him? That's my point. If someone doesn't give a damn about God, I wouldn't because he shows no respect to himself. Therefore, why honor that man when you could honor who is WILLINGLY to worship God. I mean, you taught this naughty boy that this boy doesn't care about your words. You might as well give him what he really wants until it turns into a curse. Why do you think God gives the pursuit of happiness to someone who OUGHTS to know that this option was wrong?

Note what's in bold. He is still just a boy and still has a lot to learn and grow. That's why I'm still patient with you by still teaching and letting you learn and grow.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 06, 2014, 05:05:08 PM
So you are claiming as a false prophet. Again, you have no proof that Shamanism isn't true. In fact, I see a double standard in u.

People who are blind by their own volition simply just can't see.  Did God called you?
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 07, 2014, 12:40:11 PM
I'm a disciple, not a prophet, nor an apostle. Isn't it common sense that disciples haven't seen the Father or His Kingdom? Again, you don't understand the difference between apostles, prophets, and disciples since you're coming from an apostleship. Therefore, it is irrelevant.

You make disciples look bad.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 13, 2014, 10:43:42 PM
So common sense would be I know as much as you do...then you don't need to question me...common sense doesn't need to be complicated.

Every Christain's Faith is based on their individual testimony...If you actually went to bible study...that is the most basic of relationship of faith.  Questioning that faith is the same as denying the holy spirit to enter you.  I'm just saying....(thread jack)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 17, 2014, 03:33:02 PM
Some of the best scientific reasoning are from some of the best theological reasoning.  Not that I care to go back and research any of that now...but it was quite some mind opening - eye opening things I've come across in the past...Most surprising is these scientific findings are done by those who are Christain Faith.  Yet I did not once see any evidence of faith tainting any scientific hypothesis or theories.  It is such that I can say having faith in science is as much of a foundations as having faith in any religion.  It's really the relationship of that particular individual.  Not that of the limited information control leaked to the common mass.  As since knowledge is power and  the power to control that knowledge well...control s people's thinking.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 17, 2014, 04:52:47 PM
Our current image of the adopted Jesus of Christian Faith today is as much smeared as any religious idol in the make.  Even the virgin Mary is so called only due to the limit of knowledge to so call her a virgin.

I conjecture that a dark skin tone servant...in a house of with skin tone residence, simply does not have a child, period.  Jesus is one of the recorded product of an interracial birth...for the first time to be acknowledged that racism is wrong.  If anyone should be given true recognition of the power or love from God....it is Joseph who took Mary as his wife...even though she was pregnant with another's child (for which is named only from God).

How many other people have claimed to have been given child from (devils, demons, or other gods), per say...as another toss up to the assessment.

Also (any) religion was the anti-government for the Roman Empire at the time...
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 17, 2014, 05:07:36 PM
Your coming from a Catholic view. I disagree what the Catholic say since I am an arminianism. I am no reform Christian since that would be Calvinism. Your speaking of Theocracy, which Dr. Michael Browning has spoken about how scary Theocracy IS! The reason why there's protestants and Catholics is because of THAT! The Roman Empire see God has power; however, to the protestants, they see it as hope and peace, fill with Love and no wars. My friend, go read Theocracy and watch Dr. Michael Browning's debate about him talking about Catholicism. I disagree with Catholics since they are not one with us in the spirit. They have made idols of their pagan background to which I think they have broken one of the commandments.

u misunderstand me...that' all.  That's your view of me...not my view.  You are yet trying to pin a lable of understanding that which only you can so called scientifically understand...y et you do not understand the faith of science.  Which contradicts scientific understanding. ..yet created science.  Yet from theocracy...cr eated science without the religious taint.  Open your mind... how many years have I told you this...yet you keep going back to the same thing.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 17, 2014, 05:47:59 PM
TAL

You have a way of making/taking things personally.  Not once have I attacked you personally.  When I relate to the foundation of Shamanism as in a relationship with religions. 

And I'm not a Catholic...so I personally would not know what a Catholic point of view is.  Only from what they impose upon me or from my direct dealings with Catholics.

Understand that not one Shaman can make such a claim to be a shaman scholar.  But their are scholar's who have studied shamanism not as in being a shaman but as in recording it from a scientific aspect for pure script of knowledge or record keeping.

Ah yes I do find it interesting, but it bores me now.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 17, 2014, 07:09:13 PM

It's not about faith. It's about Reasons + Answers = Faith in God. It's not all about blind faith by just believing it when you don't question it. I don't like those Christians who are lazy and doesn't want to learn about God and take it as the way it is. Soon or later, something will hit them hard in life until they become an atheist. I have seen this YO! That's why I reason FIRST before believing it. It's what I called, "Being a scientist."

It is true that there is blind faith in this world, but there is also blind reasoning too. Many religious ideas are based on that.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 18, 2014, 12:25:08 AM
No, I don't do bible study as much. I do my own research on debates.

And this is your first mistake. Debates is not a place to go do research on. Two sides are each arguing their one-sided point of view. When one makes a comment, the other will publicly disagree and argue back even though that person may really agrees with the idea. They do that in fear of weakening their main argument.

You should try to stay away from debates and start getting into more discussions. You can spend hours or days debating with someone and not learn anything at the end. Whereas in a discussion, you can learn something in minutes. The difference is that going into a debate, one has already made up their mind and their main goal is to defend it with what they know. Someone goes into a discussion with an idea or questions with the purpose of wanting to learn more about the subject.

It is the same thing about this thread. In your first post you put it out first like you wanted to see if there is any foundation to shamanism, but before anyone replied, you already started defending christianity. So are you afraid of somebody trying to challenge your belief or is it the fear you have of yourself losing faith?

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 18, 2014, 11:04:36 AM
Some people seek truths with open mindedness.... most believe they are open minded, but when they fail to understand they default into the defensive or offensive modes of their limited understanding based on their knowledge often crossed reference with other's narrow scoped definitions that suits their own views.

To be blunt...simply just wrong.

Shamanism has a foundation much more deeply rooted than any shaman can understand.  The biggest shaman is Jesus... :-X  connect that relationship.. .I'll just be quiet from here on now.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 19, 2014, 12:05:29 AM

Dude, it's the same thing.

Explain.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 19, 2014, 06:11:52 PM
Me debating with you is the same thing me debating with an atheist on show. What's the difference?

 Let me rephrase it. Explain how a debate and a discussion are the same thing.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: saki saki on March 19, 2014, 06:15:41 PM
you guys are lame as fawk....All you ppl need to no is that I got egg, I got chicken waitting, waitting for you, Please come back. heheheheheee
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 20, 2014, 09:11:52 PM
Am I debating against you? YES! I am.

You still didn't answer the question. How are they the same?
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 21, 2014, 06:36:52 PM
I just did. I guess you missed it.

If you don't know the answer then just say so, instead of trying to avoid it. I'll ask again. How are debates and discussions the same?
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 24, 2014, 03:01:12 PM
What's the question?

If you don't know the answer then just say so, instead of trying to avoid it.

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on April 04, 2014, 04:36:17 PM
What was the question? I don't read back, I read quotes.

That's the whole point. There's your problem right there.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on April 07, 2014, 08:16:21 PM
Dude, I am not a living wikipedia and ur forcing me to be one. Just give me what was the question. If not, we could be driving this argument everywhere...

I read quotes.

Looks like you're forcing yourself.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on April 07, 2014, 08:25:38 PM
TheAfterLife,

You been proving that im correct the whole time even without answering the question.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on April 10, 2014, 03:09:54 PM

It was a quote.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on April 10, 2014, 03:16:15 PM
You just proved me right again.  O0
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on April 14, 2014, 01:29:27 PM
Not my problem if you can't read.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: 3 Years Time on April 15, 2014, 10:53:25 AM
Stop arguing like kids. "I got the last word, I won the debate!"

Back to the topic. This thread is whack, the original poster obviously has something against shamans.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on October 27, 2014, 10:44:43 AM
9 pages and we got sh.it from those coj kevcai qub and Hmong atheists but defensive attitudes.

Apparently, it takes me to explain the foundation of Shamanism and Hmong atheists.

Hmong atheists have no foundation. They're basically following American popular culture. Right now it's cool to be anti-Christian even though those against Christianity are rooted in a Christian culture.  :idiot2: Their morals are based on European Christian teaching.

Americanized Shamanists ---> these people really know sh.it about their religious practices because if they did, they would realize it conflicts with their American views. First of all, Shamanism is all about magic and spells. That's why the Hmong call it "Dab qhua". The term refers to the fact that the Shaman is so skilled and clever that he can use his magic and spells to thwart the spirits. Notice how I said "thwart" and not "defeat"? Basically, that's what a Shaman does. He "diverts" the spirits from causing harm to the human being.  This kind of skill and cleverness is so sharp that even the spirits have to revere it, hence "Dab qhua".
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: HUNG TU LO on October 27, 2014, 11:53:32 AM
Hmong atheists have no foundation. They're basically following American popular culture. Right now it's cool to be anti-Christian...

Right now, it's also cool for 2nd and 3rd generation American-born children of immigrants to adopt the mainstream and/or popular religion, especially a European-based religion, and reject and bash their native traditions, religions, and beliefs. All of this is done to express a social image of modernity, "intelligence", new-age, enlightenment, etc.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on October 27, 2014, 12:19:06 PM
All these pages and no explanations, only hating and defending.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on October 27, 2014, 01:24:48 PM
Right now, it's also cool for 2nd and 3rd generation American-born children of immigrants to adopt the mainstream and/or popular religion, especially a European-based religion, and reject and bash their native traditions, religions, and beliefs. All of this is done to express a social image of modernity, "intelligence", new-age, enlightenment, etc.

I would strike out the "popular" from your sentence. Christianity isn't popular at the moment. If anything there has been a decline in membership so if American-born Hmong kids are Christian then it's their own Hmong brand of Christianity, unless of course they are cradle Catholics or Lutherans. 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: HUNG TU LO on October 28, 2014, 11:34:25 AM
I would strike out the "popular" from your sentence. Christianity isn't popular at the moment.

If you go by statistics, Christians still outnumber every group in the world. My quote:

...adopt the mainstream and/or popular religion...

Christianity IS the mainstream religion (of USA) and it still is the most popular religion in the world. The fact that Christianity may not be the path that white kids of 5th, 6th, 7th, generation are taking, does not mean that it isn't the popular (aka "cool thing to do") path for 1st and 2nd generation American-born Asian kids.

Don't even patronize me. If you found something in Jesus and Christianity, go quietly. Why do people dwell, bash and criticize their old beliefs and traditions? Why do Hmong Christians persist to equate Hmong ways with the (bible) Devil? Why do you refuse Hmong food at gatherings? How come white Christians whose families have been Christened for five generations will eagerly eat Hmong food at gatherings and they don't drop dead or feel the rapture of God?

I'll tell you why: being a Hmong and being a Christian is just to create a social image. An image of "Hey! Look at me! I'm not a savage. I'm modern, I'm with the new-age, I am like you white people. I'm not like THEM (savage Hmongs) over there."

Yeah, maybe some aren't like that but the majority of them are. Because like I said, if you found something in Christianity to make your life better, you would move on quietly and leave all this behind. But you don't because the hating, the bashing, the criticizing, it is all part of the image that you are creating for yourself. If you aren't, prove it. Go to the next Hmong hu plig or ua neeb gathering and eat the food and see if you feel the rapture (you won't because all religions/beliefs are just bullshit, but that's a story for another day). Because white Christian people have gone to Hmong gatherings, ate the food, and their **** hasn't fallen off. You only do it because you want that image. It's not about your faith in God.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: chidorix0x on October 28, 2014, 03:29:22 PM
9 pages and we got sh.it from those coj kevcai qub and Hmong atheists but defensive attitudes.

Apparently, it takes me to explain the foundation of Shamanism and Hmong atheists.

Hmong atheists have no foundation. They're basically following American popular culture. Right now it's cool to be anti-Christian even though those against Christianity are rooted in a Christian culture.  :idiot2: Their morals are based on European Christian teaching.

Americanized Shamanists ---> these people really know sh.it about their religious practices because if they did, they would realize it conflicts with their American views. First of all, Shamanism is all about magic and spells. That's why the Hmong call it "Dab qhua". The term refers to the fact that the Shaman is so skilled and clever that he can use his magic and spells to thwart the spirits. Notice how I said "thwart" and not "defeat"? Basically, that's what a Shaman does. He "diverts" the spirits from causing harm to the human being.  This kind of skill and cleverness is so sharp that even the spirits have to revere it, hence "Dab qhua".

LMAO!!!  ROLF!!!  ...   :2funny:  ...   :idiot2:

You must have learned (been spoon-fed) this idiocy (sideline observation) from your "husband", who just goes and help eat, drink, "get out of the house -- from you", and commiserate (male bonding) at Hmong shaman ceremonies huh?  As for the European-based Christian mumbo-jumbo, that is in fact EXCLUSIVELY ROOTED in a "meticulously bastardized revision/reinterpretation" of Middle Eastern teachings (morals), culture, and origin -- namely Judaism, or of the Jewish people  ...   O0

As for your rant on "Hmong Shamanism", it IS NOT "Dab Qhua", with magic and spells  ...   :knuppel2:  Hmong Shamanism IS IN FACT specifically called "Yeeb Yaig" (or "Neeb Yeeb Yaig"); NOT "Dab Qhua", for any truly cultured (knowledgeable/well-informed) Hmong -- not you HA'Mung, or wanna-be Hmong (posers), who are nothing more than side-line observers and ranters (hearsay parrots).  Additionally, there is/are no "magic and spells" in "Yeeb Yaig".  And arguably there is NO "thwarting" of any kind either.  Perhaps you need to rant less (rooted in your sideline observation/hearsay nonsense) and actually get more informed/insight of and about Hmong Shamanism (or shamanism in general) versus being Western-rooted (taught) nearsightednes s.  (Go ask any traditional, or present-day mainstream Hmong shaman if they exercise/practice any form of "magic or spells".  In all likelihood, they will just LAFF at your Western-rooted ignorance.  Also, the term "Dab Qhua", is a general, practically ALL-ENCOMPASSING term which means/refers to the cultural beliefs, practices, and taboo inherent and innate to Hmong theology, or religion if that helps.  Examp:  Hmong Funeral Rites and Weddings are, can be, and have been called/referred to as "Dab Qhua" as well.  But more specifically, they are called "Pam Tuag" and "Tshoob Kos" respectively.)

For the ignorant HA'Mung, or posers like Believe_In_Me, the only or possibly closest practitioners of "magic and spells" are Hmong "Kawv Koob".  Even then, some "Kawv Koob" are not "magic and spells", though most arguably ARE, as they are believed to conjure up mysticism, demons (ghosts/spirits), and curses etc..

Before any ignorant (Westernized nearsighted) HA'Mung feels endowed to rant about Hmong-anything, please get some formal (education) facts, versus being a nearsighted/narrow-minded idiotic ranter.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on October 30, 2014, 02:06:27 PM
LMAO!!!  ROLF!!!  ...   :2funny:  ...   :idiot2:

You must have learned (been spoon-fed) this idiocy (sideline observation) from your "husband", who just goes and help eat, drink, "get out of the house -- from you", and commiserate (male bonding) at Hmong shaman ceremonies huh?  As for the European-based Christian mumbo-jumbo, that is in fact EXCLUSIVELY ROOTED in a "meticulously bastardized revision/reinterpretation" of Middle Eastern teachings (morals), culture, and origin -- namely Judaism, or of the Jewish people  ...   O0

As for your rant on "Hmong Shamanism", it IS NOT "Dab Qhua", with magic and spells  ...   :knuppel2:  Hmong Shamanism IS IN FACT specifically called "Yeeb Yaig" (or "Neeb Yeeb Yaig"); NOT "Dab Qhua", for any truly cultured (knowledgeable/well-informed) Hmong -- not you HA'Mung, or wanna-be Hmong (posers), who are nothing more than side-line observers and ranters (hearsay parrots).  Additionally, there is/are no "magic and spells" in "Yeeb Yaig".  And arguably there is NO "thwarting" of any kind either.  Perhaps you need to rant less (rooted in your sideline observation/hearsay nonsense) and actually get more informed/insight of and about Hmong Shamanism (or shamanism in general) versus being Western-rooted (taught) nearsightednes s.  (Go ask any traditional, or present-day mainstream Hmong shaman if they exercise/practice any form of "magic or spells".  In all likelihood, they will just LAFF at your Western-rooted ignorance.  Also, the term "Dab Qhua", is a general, practically ALL-ENCOMPASSING term which means/refers to the cultural beliefs, practices, and taboo inherent and innate to Hmong theology, or religion if that helps.  Examp:  Hmong Funeral Rites and Weddings are, can be, and have been called/referred to as "Dab Qhua" as well.  But more specifically, they are called "Pam Tuag" and "Tshoob Kos" respectively.)

For the ignorant HA'Mung, or posers like Believe_In_Me, the only or possibly closest practitioners of "magic and spells" are Hmong "Kawv Koob".  Even then, some "Kawv Koob" are not "magic and spells", though most arguably ARE, as they are believed to conjure up mysticism, demons (ghosts/spirits), and curses etc..

Before any ignorant (Westernized nearsighted) HA'Mung feels endowed to rant about Hmong-anything, please get some formal (education) facts, versus being a nearsighted/narrow-minded idiotic ranter.

You're an idiot. I'm very aware that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism, however, THAT IS NOT THE BRAND OF CHRISTIANITY that the average American is following. That's why I specifically said "European" as in "Church of England" as in "Vatican in Rome".

As far as Shamanism, the shaman is believed to have spirit assistants who help him "thwart" the spirit world through clever negotiations. Most shamanists are gifted with clairvoyance as well. "Khaws koob" is also part of traditional Hmong spiritual beliefs. All fall under the Shamanism umbrella for those that follow it.

Doesn't matter how you break it down to all the different parts. It still comes down to spells, mysticism, and magic.

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: chidorix0x on October 31, 2014, 12:40:07 AM
You're an idiot. I'm very aware that Christianity has it's roots in Judaism, however, THAT IS NOT THE BRAND OF CHRISTIANITY that the average American is following. That's why I specifically said "European" as in "Church of England" as in "Vatican in Rome".

As far as Shamanism, the shaman is believed to have spirit assistants who help him "thwart" the spirit world through clever negotiations. Most shamanists are gifted with clairvoyance as well. "Khaws koob" is also part of traditional Hmong spiritual beliefs. All fall under the Shamanism umbrella for those that follow it.

Doesn't matter how you break it down to all the different parts. It still comes down to spells, mysticism, and magic.

Nawww, the only "idiot" here is definitely/clearly you, among other ignorant (Western spoon-fed narrow-minded sideline) HA'Mung observers/posers who insist on spatting nonsense like a complete nitwit.

Foremost, there is no such thing as a "Church of England", nor an equivalence to that of the "Vatican" in England, or all of Europe for that matter, except the "Vatican" itself.  England is but a single nation of Europe, a continent comprised of many nations and nationalists, with any number of churches, cathedrals, mosques, temples, or places of worship, including beliefs and faiths.  Yes, that belief and faith being a bastardized reimagining of "Judaism", rebranded as the White Man's "Christianity".  To rant otherwise it pure idiocy if not outright idiotic embodiment.

Additionally, the BRAND OF CHRISTIANITY you are idiotically ranting about, as being practiced and observed, among average America/Americans though rooted/originating in Europe (which need not be explained), IS NOT even in direct alignment with the Vatican's teachings, beliefs, and practices, or the non-existent "Church of England" for that matter, though yes, there are many similarities -- mainly because at its core they are one and the same thing.  However, in practice, they all are very different and unique as well.  (Hint: Roman-Catholicism, Roman-Orthodox, Catholicism, Lutheranism, Mormonism, Moonism, Evangelicalism/Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. etc. etc..)  See how utterly idiotic your profuse (ignorant) ranting keeps getting.

And ONLY an ignorant (Western spoon-fed narrow-minded sideline) observer, poser, and buffoon, or HA'Mung, would spat nonsense that traditional (even present-day mainstream) Hmong shamans "thwart" anything in their practice (ceremony/rituals), or spiritual belief, advocacy, and/or mediation.  (No explanation needed.  Explaining/educating anything to an idiot is like talking to a fungi infested tree stump -- an utter waste of breathe.)

"Khawv Koob" is a marginal (very secular) practice of Hmong spiritualism -- or belief.  It is not the same, and DOES NOT fall under the traditional Hmong shamanism umbrella.  But one should not expect an "idiot" to comprehend such simple subject matters,  and/or their differences and inherent/innate practices/observations.  (Hint:  A shaman is spiritually endowed (chosen/accosted) to practice its art.  A "khawv koob" practitioner, even an "idiot", can simply learn from a seasoned veteran -- just a little or a lot.  Plus, shamans DO NOT practice "magic and spells".    "Khawv Koob" practitioners specifically (and exclusively) use and is enthralled in the art of (dark) "magic and spells". Again, no one should expect a sideline "idiot", poser, and nincompoop to be so well informed, knowledgeable, and versed in these (academic/universal) facts.)

But thanks for the LAFFS  ...   :2funny:  ...  what a joke (idiot)  ...   :idiot2:
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on October 31, 2014, 03:54:10 PM
I'm not going to put forth energy educating you about the split from the Catholic church since that would be counter-productive to the topic of this thread.

I've already explained the basic foundation of Shamanism for all those interested to know.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on October 31, 2014, 05:15:56 PM
I'm not going to put forth energy educating you about the split from the Catholic church since that would be counter-productive to the topic of this thread.

I've already explained the basic foundation of Shamanism for all those interested to know.

But your explanation was just an idiotic joke.

 So is there another explanation?
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: chidorix0x on October 31, 2014, 06:30:23 PM
I'm not going to put forth energy educating you about the split from the Catholic church since that would be counter-productive to the topic of this thread.

I've already explained the basic foundation of Shamanism for all those interested to know.

Yet the ignorant (Western spoon-fed) sideline observer, poser, and "idiot" (HA'Mung) ordained itself to spat idiotic baseless nonsense about traditional Hmong shamanism and "khawv koob", claiming they both are grounded (founded) in "magic and spells", to "thwart" the spiritual realm for man's (Hmong's) convenience/leisure as if the "Church of England" and "Gawd" him/herself had christened/endowed it (the idiotic nitwit) with this absolute truth, knowledge, and wisdom/insight of which an Elementary kid would  :2funny: at without end.

What a joke (idiot) indeed  ...  :idiot2:  ...  LMAO!!!

P.S.
Yes, do spat more nonsense regarding the SPIT/split from the Catholic church -- from Europe right?  Or is it only the average Ameirca/American again?  (At least get this part consistent versus jumping all over the globe like a rabbit with its aRse/tail ablazed okay  ...   ::)  ...   :D)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dlabtsi_os on December 16, 2014, 01:47:50 AM
I have debated against Hmong Shamanists on this website for quite awhile. Almost none of them can bring a good philosophical evidence to prove their logic is true. Also, about all of the truths in Shamanism are relative since there is no God in that realm. It all goes back to Buddhism where who is the mediator that will send them to Heaven or Hell. Some of this beliefs comes from China since I know that FACT that in the ancient times, all Chinese and other asians were pagans. Therefore, if there are other Shamanists who would stand and fight for their belief, I would like to see your philosophical evidence to disprove Christianity by its doctrine, not by the Christians and their behavior.

I'm pretty sure many people who ask why we have shamanism goes back to why we have mythical kings. In anyway many elder will most likely will bring up Sis Yis. Sis Yis was suppose to justify our practice. Basically Sis Yis was an archery horseman who also happen to be a healer against sickness and disease. In case you may have notice the word Yis correlate to the Chinese word Yi. Yi means Bow. So basically ancient rulers and kings were suppose to be fond of archery horse riding or some sort until the invention of such as chariot and crossbow.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on January 24, 2015, 07:26:04 PM
But did you know that when we die, we all go to the same place? It doesn't matter ur good or bad since we all go back to our ancestors, right?

That would be the realm of the dead, also called, the afterlife.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: chidorix0x on January 25, 2015, 12:08:47 AM
So it doesn't matter if a murderer gets to go to the same place with a guy like Martin Luther King? You know, this is the reason why I left Shamanism. It lacks the ground of morality because if I work hard to be a person, I deserve something better. However, what I don't understand is HOW DA FUK can a murderer can get the same price of what I can have? You see, this is like communism. You one gets lazy and gets paid a fat check as much as the other guy who works his butt off for 24/7. WTF!

... kekeke ...  :2funny: ...  :idiot2:

Here is yet another prime/fine example of HA'MUNG ignorance (idiocy) of /anything remotely Hmong except utter nearsightednes s (stupidity) ... kekeke ...  >:D

Who (what), or where on Earth, Heaven,  and/or Hail did any being (man, beast, ghost) say, imply, and/or suggest Hmong Shamanism is rooted in a Heaven and Hail morality based domain like your CRASStian hypocrisy.  Oh yeah, your ignorant HA'MUNG twits did ... kekeke ...  ::) ..
  ;D

HA'MUNG ignorance and idiocy never ceases to amaze,  shock, and amuse me ... LMAO!
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on January 25, 2015, 05:34:15 AM
So it doesn't matter if a murderer gets to go to the same place with a guy like Martin Luther King? You know, this is the reason why I left Shamanism. It lacks the ground of morality because if I work hard to be a person, I deserve something better. However, what I don't understand is HOW DA FUK can a murderer can get the same price of what I can have? You see, this is like communism. You one gets lazy and gets paid a fat check as much as the other guy who works his butt off for 24/7. WTF!

So are you saying that not everyone dies? Or is there no afterlife for some?
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: chidorix0x on January 27, 2015, 08:17:22 AM
There is NO justice in Hmong shamanism...PERIOD! If Hmong people really wants to prove that their religion is stable and the only true religion, what makes it better than Christianity?

You see, in the Christian world, it is fairness that hurts the evil. For example, grounding you for a month during your summer vacation would be unfair to the unjust. If I was unjust, I would say that morality IS unjust because I am unjust as an example. But is it fair to not justify a criminal? I know that Hmong men likes to go to Laos to go and get wives over there and act like it didn't happen. And when they die, people say they deserve to go to heaven? UH HELL NAW! He deserves hell; however, since Hmong shamanism doesn't believe there is a Heaven nor Hell since we all go to ONE place in the ancestor world, then that makes morality relative. That means I could go and kill a Chinese person in China and come back to America and never get arrested. This makes my point clear that Shamanism has no law or any objective truth since your religion is grounded on cultural opinion. If you could prove to me that your shaman view of valid, then prove it to me, NOT on the Christian ground, but in your philosophical view. Remember, I don't like the uneducated ones to teach me something that they don't know about since it would just only create ignorance around the world like idiocracy.

...  kekeke  ...   :idiot2:  ...  KEKEKE  ...   :2funny:

Foremost, all you (ignorant) HA'Mung need to stop calling/thinking that traditional/non-traditional (as in "new/Western" Hmong shamans) Hmong Shamanism is a religion   (or any religion for that matter) remotely equating to Christianity (Muslim, Buddhism, Confucianism, and/or any/all other ISMs) with your hypcritical morals, values, beliefs, and Heaven and Hell nonsense ... kekeke  ...  ::)

Hmong Shamanism IS NOT a religion, or a/any religion of the Hmong people, for that matter, worldwide.  No point giving an explanation to supposedly Western/USA spoonfed edumacated simpletons.  If one is Hmong and knowledgable of and about the customs, cultures, and specifically Hmong Shamanism, and is truly Western/USA educated, then they (or a HA'Mung) would not be making thi/these idiotic narrowminded remark(s)/claim(s) about Hmong Shamanism  ...  kekeke  ...   >:D

HA'Mung os HA'Mung, yus qhuas qhuas tias yus yog neeg kawm ntaub kawm ntawv nod es ua cas twb tsis paub txog ABC123-shamanism, not necessarily Hmong Shamanism, ib qho lid nad  ...  KEKEKE  ...   :2funny: 

(Cov neeg nod ces yog, "Ruam tsab ntse." xwb tiag  ...    O0)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: vl on January 29, 2015, 02:31:36 PM
Christians are mindless humans, if the Bible told them to go suck D, that's exactly what they'll do.... :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on January 30, 2015, 01:38:31 AM
dogmai,

Not only are you an idiot but also a coward. As always, you are in conflict with yourself. If you find it hard to believe in Christianity, it should be even harder for you to believe in Shamanism. But yet again, you have shown yourself to be an anti-Christian moreso than an atheist. You will agree with anything that conflicts with Christianity just for the sake of hating Christianity.

You really don't have the stability to be in PH. You're obviously cuckoo.

You're like those phers who allow this place to get so real that they claim to have fallen in love with another pher. Well PH is so real for you that you have allowed yourself to really hate Christian phers.  :idiot2:

I guess this is what happens when you have nobody waiting at home for you.  :2funny:
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on January 31, 2015, 05:34:00 PM
dogmai,

Not only are you an idiot but also a coward. As always, you are in conflict with yourself. If you find it hard to believe in Christianity, it should be even harder for you to believe in Shamanism. But yet again, you have shown yourself to be an anti-Christian moreso than an atheist. You will agree with anything that conflicts with Christianity just for the sake of hating Christianity.

You really don't have the stability to be in PH. You're obviously cuckoo.

You're like those phers who allow this place to get so real that they claim to have fallen in love with another pher. Well PH is so real for you that you have allowed yourself to really hate Christian phers.  :idiot2:

I guess this is what happens when you have nobody waiting at home for you.  :2funny:

I'm flattered to hear that you fell in love with me and followed me every where. The truth is, I don't have the same feelings towards you. Please refrain yourself from following me everywhere. One day, hopefully you will find someone who can return those feelings.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on February 01, 2015, 11:35:28 AM
I'm flattered to hear that you fell in love with me and followed me every where. The truth is, I don't have the same feelings towards you. Please refrain yourself from following me everywhere. One day, hopefully you will find someone who can return those feelings.

My post was in response to YOU, idiot. You're the one following me around like a lost puppy.  :2funny:
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on February 01, 2015, 11:53:51 AM
My post was in response to YOU, idiot. You're the one following me around like a lost puppy.  :2funny:

It seems you're entering the denial stage. Hopefully you can get pass that stage.  O0
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: atthetop on February 12, 2015, 09:49:56 AM
Theafterlife is obviously brainwashed by white Christians

White Christians: Hmong people believe in the devil  :idiot2: :idiot2: :idiot2: :idiot2:

Animism is the foundation of shamanism; it teaches respect for nature. What does Christianism say about nature?

Hmong shamans do believe in god/higher power. Why do you think movies like Zeb thiab Sua exist? Because we believe in judgement day and we believe in karma, duh!

Next
 
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: atthetop on February 12, 2015, 07:25:54 PM
Yeah, that's what I called, "Univervalism," LOL!

You worship two gods like how you marry two wives. You are an idolater like an adulterer. I'm sorry yo, you can't serve two masters. It's either your loyal to the other, or loyal to the another.

What the heck are you talking about  :idiot2:

You're boring. You can't even comprehend what I wrote
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: atthetop on February 24, 2015, 08:03:30 PM
Your combining two different religion yo. So don't combine Hmong shamanism to other cultural influence. Keep it pure rather than bullshitting about our shaman religion. I only attack Shamanism is because we all go to the same place. But if you want to talk about universalism, go post on another section rather than this. I want to keep this forum on topic about the afterlife of Shamanism vs. Christianity. Therefore, I will put you on a red herring.

Because you know what PURE Hmong shamanism is
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: atthetop on February 24, 2015, 08:06:46 PM
This is why Hmong people are backward because I was right about most Asian people and their stereotypical ways. When Hmong fight against Hmong, oh man, they got the power. However, when Hmong fight against a new community with a new race, they think your cocky and find you as a threat. That totally fits you man. Good luck by not going to school since you just proved my Professor, Terence Mullins to be right about you. Open your eyes fool. Why do you think smart people crush ignorant dumb people in America? It's quite simple and it's RIGHT THERE in the constitution for example (Going off topic). What I am saying is that bad people and good people don't mix. I believe that the uneducated ones should protest and riot against the educated ones for being so damn harsh about them. And yes, I am rebuking you.

If you want to make fun of Christianity, you can go ahead; however, you can look at your religion to be the bottom of the list as to be the lowest population you will ever see. You are very archaic and very non-adaptive! I feel pity that you have such pride on something that is puny, old, non-scientific, and non-scripture that is based on your religion.

Implying you're smart. Implying knowledge equates wisdom. You sound like you have a very concrete mind. You quote others but creates no ideas of your own

"Open your eyes fool"

Says the guy who can't see his own contradictions

Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: chidorix0x on February 25, 2015, 10:46:32 PM
... kekeke ...  ::)

TheAfterLife < --- clearly an edumacated oxymoronic HA'MUNG ... KEKEKE ...  :idiot2:

AtTheTop < --- clearly wasting precious time trying to edumacate a HA'MUNG oxymoron .. kekeke ...  >:D

Most/ALL HA'MUNG are clearly ignorant edumacated oxymorons, especially when it comes to Hmong anything and everything ... kekeke ...  8)
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on March 06, 2015, 08:57:53 PM
11 pages and STILL NO ANSWER to a simple and honest question. However, not surprisingly, just another thread for anti-theists and anti-Christians to rear their ugly heads.

Perhaps the question is too difficult.  :idiot2: :2funny:

Thank god for Google that some of us can look up the answer or perhaps make a phone call to a shaman who doesn't have a stick up his a.ss.
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 09, 2015, 06:52:35 PM
I like it when some of these old threads gets bumped.  I do so enjoy going back and re-reading these threads when I'm bored.  ;D

always puts a smug on my face  >:D
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: dogmai on March 18, 2015, 12:56:36 PM
Shaman has no evidence to prove or support their defense--scientifically and philosophicall y.

And yet, religious fanatics of a different belief are so threaten by its existence. You all know what that means......
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: VillainousHero on March 18, 2015, 01:18:19 PM
So is Shamanism suppose to be defending itself?
Title: Re: Does Hmong Shamanism have any foundation of itself?
Post by: NeejYagHawj on September 17, 2015, 09:50:11 AM
this is a weird question...in a way, it is a "not thoroughly thought through" question.

any religion can't be proven or disproven...be cause it is based on blind faith.  in other word, it has nothing to do with what's real or fake....

everyone knows that "jesus" was a real person, due to historical references.  however, no one can prove that jesus was god's son or that he is the ultimate god.  these godlly conclusions are based on beliefs.  anyone religion is guilty when we are talking about "proof" or "facts"...it can't be done (not now anyway).