PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Debate Central => Topic started by: bulbasaur on June 14, 2016, 05:58:59 PM
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Alrighty, let's beat this dead horse....
I am not really against or for the bride price. If people want to or not want to practice it, then whatever. However, I heard some poor arguments recently.
1. The bride price is slavery. Well, no. Most of the time (in the States anyways), the bride and groom really do want to marry each other. Pre-arranged marriage is really going away among Hmong Americans.
2. The bride price leads to domestic violence. Well, no. Those are two very separate events. There are lots of people who practiced the bride price, and they are not domestically violent. People might point to that a high number of Hmong people who are in domestic violence also practiced the bride price. However, that is a skewed statistic. There is no causality factor. You might as well say eating rice leads to domestic violence. Or, living in urban areas lead to domestic violence.
3. The bride price leads to adultery. Well, no. Again, same reasons as 2.
More as they come....
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Whatever these smart educated women or men like to believe. If having a price on your head is demeaning, slavery, leads to domestic violence, abuse, and or death - people these days have many options to choose from, they can go white/black/brown for all I care. Spousal problems is no stranger to all race of people. But when one thinks of their own systems as being worthless or pointless, they're just a piece of sh1+. I'm sure we all know of someone marrying out, some good life they have right? Life is just as fuk up or far worst. There's nothing more to it...
As far as the cap goes, I say it's a joke. If you can't fork 5k, 10k, 20k, or even getting down on your knees because of your religion... You're simply not a man but a piece of turd. & yes, women, y'all better be worth the price too. If you're going to demand this so called 50/50, be a nagging bitc#, and be disgraceful to your family, you're not even worth a dime either.lol The brides family, I believe this dowry was supposed to be some sort of insurance money but why eat it? You already eat meat, drink wine/beer, and etc... Least you can do is hold the dowry for safe keeping, besides you'd gained plenty of benefits from the groom. That's probably more than make up for the labor of bring up an outstanding trophy wife. ;D
Bride price, even today I still hear people who wants to get marry but can't fork a mere 5k. That's just ridiculous... That means such people are turds. turd people including the so called educated just don't f-ing get it. We have a system for a reason so turds can't make more turds or create more problems they can't take care of. BE RESPONSIBLE DAMNIT!
And women, your mex/white/black fiance needs to fork it up and get down on his f-ing knees like he meaning. Don't be covering for that sob-making it seem like he honors the family, you'll regret it later when they're done with you.
Ok. Enough ranting in this genre...
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I don't care about the dowry... but some family demand boat load of cash for their daughter because she's got a degree. That's BS...
What I hate is when the family demand dowry from other Hmong family but says sh1t when it's other race.
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That's why men need to beat their wifes.lol :2funny:
Because they pay sh!+ load of money.
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My personal experience was definitely different from what I had always heard. My parents drilled into the men in our family that we needed to start saving money as soon as we started working, for our future wives. We've heard how families in CA were asking for 10K on average and close to 30K for their college educated daughters. Considering couples were getting married young at this time and young in general, you're looking at having that amount of money set aside in your late teens or early twenties. Who among us can say they did?
All things considered, I do believe we're left with a few bad examples, hearsay and a lot of generalization . In the end, it's the parents who set the precedence. Some defer to their children, some stand by tradition, some adhere to the guidelines of the Hmong 18 Clan Council and others just don't see the bride price as something to potentially have a wedding hinge upon. And yes, even some few parents do treat their daughters as a commodity, a means to financial gain.
I'm not sure where all this discrimination and negativity is coming from? This is one of those experiences in Life where where the perspective as a participant is totally different than from the perspective as an observer or bystander.
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4. The bride price lets parents choose the groom, and it allows parents to treat their daughters like assets. Well, no. There are some insane stories where the price is ridiculous, but it's not really the norm. The bride's parent do indeed set the bride price, but that price is negotiable. There's a process for it. And before people complain and say that the groom has no room to negotiate, he actually does. In fact, the groom has the biggest bargaining chip: he has the girl.
Some people think this entire process is tedious and should be abandoned, but there is some merit to it all. It forces families to come together and work together. People really remember how every single person helped out. They can name each and every person and what their role was. Unlike a "western" wedding, a person may not know what anyone did during the wedding. People came, had a good time, and dropped off a gift, but you may not remember what they did.
If you don't like the practice, that's fine. Don't do it. But if you do, that's cool too. You should do what is best for you. Just don't assume that what is best for you is best for everyone.
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$$$ = CLASS, NO
However...
$$$ = CLASS, sometimes.
Real World 5hit.
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This topic has been blown out and now it's reached an all time high class of, "I don't really care how much the bride price/dowry is set at", a life together happily is all that matters. Life has no guarantees nor does it have a mapped out structure of how things will come to be.
I believe in the flat rate LOL regardless of education or back ground.
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Newlywed Couple: We don't want to start this chapter of our lives already in debt.
Parents: Let's not place unnecessary burden upon our kids by demanding so much from our new son/daughter in law.
That's how I remembered it anyways. I consider myself fortunate enough that through marriage I've had the chance to have more than one pair of caring parents. I refer to my in-laws as mom and dad and in return I'm just like another son to them. So maybe my views are a little biased.
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I can't believe this is even an argument, a debate. We are free to marry who we love, guys. FREE. There should never be any other kind of offerings from family or anyone else. It should be pure. Two hearts. Two lives intertwined. Nothing else.
My daughters will marry whom they love. Not the guy who can cough up the most money. Pathetic. Dirty slave money coated with fake respect. Ugh.
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Who said you weren't free to marry whomever?
I can't believe this is even an argument, a debate. We are free to marry who we love, guys. FREE. There should never be any other kind of offerings from family or anyone else. It should be pure. Two hearts. Two lives intertwined. Nothing else.
My daughters will marry whom they love. Not the guy who can cough up the most money. Pathetic. Dirty slave money coated with fake respect. Ugh.
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5. The girl has to marry whomever coughs up the highest bride price. Well, no. People who think this are neglecting all the other events leading up to this point. The bride price does not equate to a prearranged marriage.
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I pay for every thing. For all kinds of people services. It's natural for me to see that paying for a bride is wrong because if she doesn't live up to the price, then we know what will happen. Just like if I paid for something and the service wasn't up to what I paid, you bet I will get my money's worth or get a refund.
Imagine two girls at a gathering about how much each was worth.
Girl one: So, how much did your husband pay for you?
Girl Two: He paid $5,000.
Girl one: That's it? Don't you have a bachelor's degree?
Girl Two: MD, but I'm not using it so his family didn't include it in the price.
Girl one: Oh...
Girl Two: How much did yours pay for you?
Girl one: $20K.
Girl Two: Wow. What does that include?
Girl one: I work in my field of study.
Girl Two: What do you do?
Girl one: I'm a first grade teacher. Why aren't you using your degree?
Girl Two: I was a surgeon but my father got ill and I was the only who could care for him so I had to quit.
Girl Three walks into the convo: Hi girls!
Girl one: Out of curiosity, did your husband pay a bride price for you?
Girl Three: Why would he do that?
Girl one: That's what Hmong families are supposed to do out of respect for the family and the culture.
Girl Three: Respect shouldn't cost a dime. Respect is earned, not paid for.
:)
All silliness aside. No matter which way you look at it, a bride price is wrong. Truly, if you can't see that it is a form of slavery, then you are blind. I get that a lot families choose to pretend that it's not slavery. Those families didn't learn about what slavery is and what it does to people. Why do you think we ended slavery in the U.S? I know there are still slavery countries out there. That's fine. They allow it, but not here. This is not the country to do that and if you do it, you are doing it under cover. Sure, there are women who want to be a slave to her husband. That's fine, but only if she chooses. Families are still teaching their daughters to live up to the man and that is so wrong. Let your daughters think for themselves. Let them find love on there own without this bride price looming over them. Let your sons find love on their own without the stress of having to save up for the perfect girl his parents will love. There are other countries out there who are bounded by strict cultures...and that's okay because that's them. They are not free to think or feel the spectrum of love out there. We are in this country. We should utilize it. It's a form of advancement. Don't bound yourself to primitive rules that will only limit you in your greatness.
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You are simply incorrect. Mormons are Christians. Baptists actually do read the OT. And now, this.
1. Imaginary conversations do not prove anything. I can rewrite the entire conversation and make it pro bride price. The worst part about your imaginary conversation is that it doesn't even prove your point.
2. Please explain how bride price equates to slavery. Black people would love to hear it.
3. You wrote and ask, "Those families didn't learn about what slavery is and what it does to people. Why do you think we ended slavery in the U.S" Unfortunately for you, history is not on your side. The large majority of Americans during slavery did not practice the bride price.
4. You wrote, "I know there are still slavery countries out there. That's fine." Wait, what? No, it is not fine. Also, why are you totally fine with slavery in other countries, but you get all bent out of shape over the bride price? That makes no sense.
5. You wrote, " Families are still teaching their daughters to live up to the man and that is so wrong." That has nothing to do with the bride price.
6. You wrote, "Let your daughters think for themselves. Let them find love on there own without this bride price looming over them. Let your sons find love on their own without the stress of having to save up for the perfect girl his parents will love." That's great. It's a good thing the bride price does not restrict any of those things.
7. You wrote, "Don't bound yourself to primitive rules that will only limit you in your greatness." That's great. It's a good thing the bride price does not restrict that either. BTW, can we get a look at your wedding ring? How much did that cost?
I pay for every thing. For all kinds of people services. It's natural for me to see that paying for a bride is wrong because if she doesn't live up to the price, then we know what will happen. Just like if I paid for something and the service wasn't up to what I paid, you bet I will get my money's worth or get a refund.
Imagine two girls at a gathering about how much each was worth.
Girl one: So, how much did your husband pay for you?
Girl Two: He paid $5,000.
Girl one: That's it? Don't you have a bachelor's degree?
Girl Two: MD, but I'm not using it so his family didn't include it in the price.
Girl one: Oh...
Girl Two: How much did yours pay for you?
Girl one: $20K.
Girl Two: Wow. What does that include?
Girl one: I work in my field of study.
Girl Two: What do you do?
Girl one: I'm a first grade teacher. Why aren't you using your degree?
Girl Two: I was a surgeon but my father got ill and I was the only who could care for him so I had to quit.
Girl Three walks into the convo: Hi girls!
Girl one: Out of curiosity, did your husband pay a bride price for you?
Girl Three: Why would he do that?
Girl one: That's what Hmong families are supposed to do out of respect for the family and the culture.
Girl Three: Respect shouldn't cost a dime. Respect is earned, not paid for.
:)
All silliness aside. No matter which way you look at it, a bride price is wrong. Truly, if you can't see that it is a form of slavery, then you are blind. I get that a lot families choose to pretend that it's not slavery. Those families didn't learn about what slavery is and what it does to people. Why do you think we ended slavery in the U.S? I know there are still slavery countries out there. That's fine. They allow it, but not here. This is not the country to do that and if you do it, you are doing it under cover. Sure, there are women who want to be a slave to her husband. That's fine, but only if she chooses. Families are still teaching their daughters to live up to the man and that is so wrong. Let your daughters think for themselves. Let them find love on there own without this bride price looming over them. Let your sons find love on their own without the stress of having to save up for the perfect girl his parents will love. There are other countries out there who are bounded by strict cultures...and that's okay because that's them. They are not free to think or feel the spectrum of love out there. We are in this country. We should utilize it. It's a form of advancement. Don't bound yourself to primitive rules that will only limit you in your greatness.
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Interesting. No good rebuttals, so this means, I'm glad you agree. ;D
As for the wedding band, I was the breadwinner at the time so I paid for husband's and mine. I also paid for my wedding ring but had to sell it when times got tough. On our 10th wedding anniversary, husband got me a new 3-stone ring to remember that we made it past the 10th mark. He marked the moment with a new watch for himself that cost a little more than my ring. I didn't go with something expensive. I went simple because I wanted to just remember that we worked hard and we worked together to be where we're at today.
I'm not the materialistic person you might think I am.
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Btw, you can't sense the uncomfortablen ess about the price conversation between these wives? The convo doesn't have to be exactly like what I made up...just something along those lines. I know it was a silly convo, but you see how odd that would be? Wives talking about how much each other was paid for. That is so wrong and weird and backwards.
Makes for a good story though. Maybe I'll put it in one of my stories.
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Those of you whom was brought up in the Christian way will never see reason or purpose but will just equate to slavery. If people like you can't conform when your son loves a nonchristian, we mind as well have prejudice and segregation.
Weird? How is that any different from buying a rock. People whom believes this western system are like what Donald Trump describes as being so disgusting and sick minded for supporting this blood diamond trade.
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What? Did you not see ALL your points get rebutted? I even quoted them and gave the rebuttal right afterwards. :idiot2:
You missed the point on "the wedding ring analogy." I shouldn't be surprised because you missed ALL your points getting rebutted.
Who said you were materialistic? No one here said that you were. Whether or not you are materialistic has no bearing on the issue at hand. However, now that you brought it up, it is odd that you are fixated on how much things cost....
Interesting. No good rebuttals, so this means, I'm glad you agree. ;D
As for the wedding band, I was the breadwinner at the time so I paid for husband's and mine. I also paid for my wedding ring but had to sell it when times got tough. On our 10th wedding anniversary, husband got me a new 3-stone ring to remember that we made it past the 10th mark. He marked the moment with a new watch for himself that cost a little more than my ring. I didn't go with something expensive. I went simple because I wanted to just remember that we worked hard and we worked together to be where we're at today.
I'm not the materialistic person you might think I am.
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So you want to base decisions in the world based on a silly imaginary conversation? Anyways...
What is "weird and backwards" is not the same for everyone. Going into a building and kneeling down in front of a guy every week is "weird and backwards" to some people, but I still support people's right to go to church.
If the bride price is not for you, that's fine. However, to tell people that they are wrong in doing so and using the reasons you gave, that's just illogical. You might as well start banning all flavors of ice cream instead of the one you like best.
Btw, you can't sense the uncomfortablen ess about the price conversation between these wives? The convo doesn't have to be exactly like what I made up...just something along those lines. I know it was a silly convo, but you see how odd that would be? Wives talking about how much each other was paid for. That is so wrong and weird and backwards.
Makes for a good story though. Maybe I'll put it in one of my stories.
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And it probably sounds weird to some people who say, "Look my husband paid 2 months salary for this ring." Look at it, it's just a rock.
It does sound weird when someone said "My husband paid 10g for me."
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I am in the camp that thinks people can choose whether or not to continue practicing the bride price. I just think it is not okay for one side to claim the bride price is slavery. That is not only demeaning to the people who practice it, but it is also demeaning to actual slaves. If you rather go spend $5k on a rock, then go ahead. Traditionalist s rather give the $5k to the bride's family. Why is your rock more significant than their goodwill? If anything, giving $5k to the family is a bit more selfless and practical; you can't eat a rock.
Those of you whom was brought up in the Christian way will never see reason or purpose but will just equate to slavery. If people like you can't conform when your son loves a nonchristian, we mind as well have prejudice and segregation.
Weird? How is that any different from buying a rock. People whom believes this western system are like what Donald Trump describes as being so disgusting and sick minded for supporting this blood diamond trade.
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Another argument that fails is this: the bride price is a dowry.
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Bride price is boring. I wanna talk about.... The groom price!!! :D
(http://www.zaubqaub.com/zaubqaub/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Groom-Price-FlowChart.jpg)
:2funny: :2funny:
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Zaubqaub.com is tabloid. So don't take its articles to be too credible on its news.
The Council isn't quite over the bride price yet. Its attempted order to cap it at 5K isn't well-taken by many, as Hmong continue to climb the academic ladder each year. There are still unenforceable variations. But then the Clan has no power to enforce its policies other than to have each family keep grudges against their in-laws for future enforcement of any agreement or otherwise.
With this GLBT movement and the U.S. Supreme Court's order on the freedom of marriage, we'll see how the 18 Clan deals with issues such as the groom price, intra-clan marriage, same-sex weddings, etc.
Reporter, from your name I assume that you are a man of news sense. Are there any updates about this groom price? I always wondered what the 18 Council decided on.
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Hm. So can I ask why the 18Council exists if it has no way of enforcing its own policies?
A governing body, made for us and by us, I suppose.
I don't believe they have any real legislative powers. They have acted as liaisons and arbitrators in the past.
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The key word here is "governing" because they aren't really *governing* anything if they don't have the power to enforce policies.
Also if they only serve as liaisons and arbitrators, then they have no right to write up policies that they then say that Hmong people should use as guidelines.
Semblance. Appearance. The perception of power is just as important if not more so than the possession of any actual powers to govern. I'm only assuming here of course.
As far as enacting certain policies, they were quick fixes to fundamental problems.
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That is a question for them.
I am not against the Council. I am just saying it has no power to enforce its policies because we live under another country's laws.
Hm. So can I ask why the 18Council exists if it has no way of enforcing its own policies?
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That is a question for them.
I am not against the Council. I am just saying it has no power to enforce it policies because we live under another country's laws.
People followed their policies because we still have a bunch of cov laus around then it like they would enforced whatever 18 clans is saying ..... They take that into consideration and then the other party will most likey do it. We got to blamed everyone for their part. Havent we been doing this for centuries or take on the practice off them Hmong Laus..... Zoo thiab phem lo thaum muaj zoo li no sawvdlawg yeej ua li 18 xeem hais koos zoo nkauj xws.
Cov es hais lawv niam thiab txiv tsis asked for nqi tau haus rau lawv tus ntxhais mam dag tshaj. Yog niam txiv Hmoob txhua tus yeej ua. Leej tus los yeej xav tau 5-7k. Cov niam txiv es tsis tau mam yog lawv cov ntxhais yuav lawv haiv neeg. Yog tau qab tau haus yog tus ntxhais hais tau nws tub hlaus nraug ua xws. Ib txhij tseem yog tus ntxhais thiab hlaus nraug save uake to do it.
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How did the Council resolve the Pajnyiag Yang funeral issue case?
People followed their policies because we still have a bunch of cov laus around then it like they would enforced whatever 18 clans is saying ..... They take that into consideration and then the other party will most likey do it. We got to blamed everyone for their part. Havent we been doing this for centuries or take on the practice off them Hmong Laus..... Zoo thiab phem lo thaum muaj zoo li no sawvdlawg yeej ua li 18 xeem hais koos zoo nkauj xws.
Cov es hais lawv niam thiab txiv tsis asked for nqi tau haus rau lawv tus ntxhais mam dag tshaj. Yog niam txiv Hmoob txhua tus yeej ua. Leej tus los yeej xav tau 5-7k. Cov niam txiv es tsis tau mam yog lawv cov ntxhais yuav lawv haiv neeg. Yog tau qab tau haus yog tus ntxhais hais tau nws tub hlaus nraug ua xws. Ib txhij tseem yog tus ntxhais thiab hlaus nraug save uake to do it.
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If your mom and dad don't charge a bride price for your sister, can the Council require it to be paid?
People followed their policies because we still have a bunch of cov laus around then it like they would enforced whatever 18 clans is saying ..... They take that into consideration and then the other party will most likey do it. We got to blamed everyone for their part. Havent we been doing this for centuries or take on the practice off them Hmong Laus..... Zoo thiab phem lo thaum muaj zoo li no sawvdlawg yeej ua li 18 xeem hais koos zoo nkauj xws.
Cov es hais lawv niam thiab txiv tsis asked for nqi tau haus rau lawv tus ntxhais mam dag tshaj. Yog niam txiv Hmoob txhua tus yeej ua. Leej tus los yeej xav tau 5-7k. Cov niam txiv es tsis tau mam yog lawv cov ntxhais yuav lawv haiv neeg. Yog tau qab tau haus yog tus ntxhais hais tau nws tub hlaus nraug ua xws. Ib txhij tseem yog tus ntxhais thiab hlaus nraug save uake to do it.
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How did the Council resolve the Pajnyiag Yang funeral issue case?
Her case from what I asked my parent last week when they were in town. Nothing the council can do about it because the ex-husband refused and won't say anything. The council just need to know they can tried all they want but they are forgetting that the American laws is more powerful and that everything the ex-husband has done evil/cruel/etc. he has the rights.
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If your mom and dad don't charge a bride price for your sister, can the Council require it to be paid?
Nothing the council say or do is going to enforced if no one want to follow or do it. Remember that most Hmong niam txiv as long as it is a Hmong custom then most already followed the standard. If they make it hard it is where some would walk out. Still as niam txiv Hmoob leejtwg los yeej yuav hais nqi tau haus. Tus ntxhais laib, tsis txim txaj, ran away, pregnant, etc. One of my husband cousin met a ran away girl all the way from WI while he is in CA. When they reached out to the father........ ..he told them you don't need to come all the way up to WI to do the wedding. I have a relative in Fresno and you guy can just go there and he will send me the $$. The truth her own father was so sick and tired of her that he was glad someone her of his hand. Later my aunt father visited and told us that the reason why her father made it so easy that way is because lawv hais tsis tau lawv tus ntxhais tau tseem yau yau.
In my husband side they are still 90% tseem ua qab kevcai........ ..good or bad they follow every custom and the amount set. Recently when they say $1200 is what it should be to mus hais nyab rau los tsev tom niam tais thiab yawj txiv. My bil did even though he in the past has went from anywhere like $200-400. Same old problem over and over again. When my bil did $1200 my sil still refused to come back home. Nyob nyob ob peb hli nwg los nwg tus nkeej.
Do you realized that Hmong council crap just put you guy in a bad spot while it make pojniam Hmoob muaj plau dlau right or wrong because you guy are getting on your knees to beg.......... Qhov no mam tsis different from the Meskas txoj cai who set standard for child support, spousal support, etc. ua rau pojniam tau zoo nyob thiab noj because they benefits so much. Pojniam in general don't lose $$$. It just the matter if they can get it or not and battle it out for years and then give in........
I respect Hmong culture and custom but I hate everything we do something because it is all about face.
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If it's not about saying face, honor, respect, integrity, and so on... People are just a bunch of shameless animals. Those of you whom thinks it don't matter; may want to think again. Having y'all heard about that prof. at the University of Concordia(Hmong culture expert) whom not too long ago(maybe just a month earlier) decides to forego his own mother's funeral proceeding expeditiously to mere hours? Has generated many criticism among the community especially those that known him. For someone whom was supposed to know Hmong Culture and History, this dude did the un-thinkable. His own father's funeral was lavish but his mother was as if a dog past away. All for convenience & saving $$$?... No one respects a scholar whom has no respect for his own mother and relatives.
Whether it's saving face or having a set price figure for brides, they all matter and have a important purpose.