PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: theking on August 19, 2019, 05:26:32 PM
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Who will lead the Hmong?
Eight years after General Vang Pao’s death, no clear successor in sight
(https://www.newsreview.com/imager/who-will-lead-the-hmong/b/column300/28477846/56fb/cover1-1.jpg)
About 600 Hmong from across generations and time zones packed the Hmong Palace Church in South Sacramento on May 5 to honor one of their heroes and greatest shamans, Xa Houa Lee, who died peacefully in his sleep in April just before he would have turned 80.
All along the right wall of the church were poster-size photos showing Lee leading his people out of Laos ahead of the pursuing Pathet Lao across mountains and the treacherous Mekong River into Thailand.
The ceremony—which blended Christian and Hmong traditions—drew Hmong leaders from as far away as Minnesota to celebrate Lee, “Beloved Husband, Father, and Grandfather, Respected Leader and Shaman,” according to the program, written in English and Hmong. The eulogy was delivered by a younger member of the Lee clan, Elk Grove Mayor Steve Ly, one of the most prominent Hmong elected officials in the nation.
A decade ago, that eulogy would have been given by “The General,” Vang Pao, who led his people from Laos to Vietnam to safety in Thai refugee camps and finally to the United States, now home to some 350,000 Hmong refugees and their offspring.
But more than eight years after his death in Clovis from pneumonia and heart failure at 81, the next generation of Hmong leaders is struggling to find a new collective identity—and someone to emerge as their champion, godfather and guide.
“That is the most important question facing our Hmong people,” Ly said in an interview.
‘The General’
For centuries, Hmong have relied on powerful leaders, and Vang Pao has been called the greatest general of the Vietnam War by the American officers who served alongside him. He was an almost mythic figure, believed to be invulnerable to communist bullets. He traveled California and the nation, lobbying public officials, visiting Hmong communities, settling disputes, attending weddings and funerals and promising his people a better future. Every year around Thanksgiving, there were multiple Hmong New Year celebrations across California, Minnesota and Wisconsin to accommodate The General.
He led a secret jungle army of more than 10,000 guerillas, some as young as 12, who were paid about $4 a month by the CIA to battle the Vietnamese communists and Pathet Lao from 1961 to 1975. He helped unify the 18 Hmong family clans, including the influential Chang (or Cha), Ly (or Lee), Her, Moua, Thao, Vang and Xiong.
Since his passing on June 6, 2011—a date thousands of Hmong have committed to memory—the old Hmong clan councils have lost some of their power. Hmong in their 30s and 40s are retelling Hmong history through documentaries and online forums. Sacramento has emerged as the new Hmong capital of California, eclipsing Fresno, and several nonprofits are trying to provide new leadership and direction.
Vang Pao’s brother-in-law and right-hand man, Col. Ly Teng, and another brother-in-law, Dr. Touxa Lyfong, both spoke in Hmong at Xa Houa Lee’s funeral, along with one of Vang Pao’s sons, Ci Vang.
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Right now. I don't think there's a need for a leader. It's only in our trying times that we find the need to group together and look up to someone to lead. Even if there's some leading will people follow?
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Bruh, Hmong hlub Hmong no longer exist, therefore there will never be a another Hmong leader like GVP. In reality nowadays, you are just another Asian to me. You see this practice all over America with young Hmong people and they are our future like it or not. As half Hmong Millennials today can't even speak or write Hmong. Language is culture. It's happening now and as the Hmong language dies to a low minimum many years from now its going to be even near impossible to have a Hmong leader when more than half the Hmong people don't even know their own roots and culture. Sad but going forward for Hmong Americans from now on and forever is the President of the United States. Look at all these Hmong Senators, Representative and etc.....young Hmong people simply don't care. TBH, there is too much trouble when Hmong rule anyways, this is facts dating back to old Chinese and Hmong history. It will never happen IMO. Hmong where meant to be rule by others because they can't rule peacefully under themselves. It's a burden from way way back, a curse from a Hmong King.
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our greatest enemy is within the country we live in. until america starts hating on the hmong, there will not need be a person designated to represent the hmong. culturally, we should look to our immediate elders...colle ctively, we should recognize those in respective positions such as senators, judges and reputable lawyers. also, if our 18 clanmen could establish a transparent organization that helps the hmong in dealing with community services, elderly services, assist in the violation of rights and more importantly, eliminate distrust of hmong groups, then they could perceived to be representative s of the hmong. we don't need a hmong d!cktator! ha!
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I didn't even realize there was a ”Hmong leader” left after 1975. Weren't all ranks lost to the Mekong River? When did the people even get to vote for this position?
If some of you guys do a bit of research you will run across Vaj Pov and NeoHome (supposedly ”resistance group”) basically scamming people (old and gullible Hmong men; some had good intentions while others wanted prestige so bought it) during the 1980’s all the way up to 2007+ until VP’s passing.
Vaj Pov was only a 2-star General (Major General) but was selling 4-star General positions as well as Provincial Governorships. Too funny.
Sorry to say, but that was an ineffective and embarrassing era when Vaj Pov ”lead” (in America).
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Listen to one of Vaj Pov’s top defenders (Pov Xyooj Ntse) of the past defect to tell a different (and accurate) narrative about him;
https://youtu.be/484oUG-sgaQ
And listen to this NeoHome member talk about Vaj Pov. If you don't want to listen to everything then at least put an effort into listening from the 38:30 minute mark to the 39:30 mark. He explains about VP scamming Hmong for money.
https://youtu.be/CmRkPN96r80
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these day in age, we still looking for hmong leader/s? I seen none that fit. if ya'll know of any, do let me know......unti l then, i'll pass.
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The Hmong’s biggest struggle today and into the future will be their integrity of being. Cultural preservation and continuation are parts and parcel in saving Hmong integrity. Economics and all others are just secondary. A future leader should have this clarity and foresight.
Cultural assimilation, social engineering, and cultural imperialism are the dangers, the enemies. Without cultural integrity Hmong will cease to be Hmong but culturally transform into Mabsua. This means the extinction of Hmong.
Vaj Pov’s family (or perhaps even VP himself) did not realize this and so allowed his funeral to have Hmong Kablis Kevcai Dabqhua, Buddhism and Mabsua’s Christianity traditions all entangled together. When you try to sit on 2-3 stools, you fall in between to the ground. And that's what VP’s ignorant family did; allowed assimilation to creep in.
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Why can't cultural preservation and integrity be carried out individually? Shouldn't one feel the need to do so to begin with?
I understand it's difficult to try and remain an individual among the masses but you should still have some self awareness, a grasp of your self identity, a need to be who you are despite the emphasis placed on the importance of the sum of all parts.
You should not need someone to tell you who You are.
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think you're missing the point here though, it's not much of why can't we find a leader, it's more of ... how many are willing to follow.
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I didn't even realize there was a ”Hmong leader” left after 1975. Weren't all ranks lost to the Mekong River? When did the people even get to vote for this position?
If some of you guys do a bit of research you will run across Vaj Pov and NeoHome (supposedly ”resistance group”) basically scamming people (old and gullible Hmong men; some had good intentions while others wanted prestige so bought it) during the 1980’s all the way up to 2007+ until VP’s passing.
Vaj Pov was only a 2-star General (Major General) but was selling 4-star General positions as well as Provincial Governorships. Too funny.
Sorry to say, but that was an ineffective and embarrassing era when Vaj Pov ”lead” (in America).
Whether he is only 2 star General or not. People was able to rally behind him. Got to give em credit for that. As for Neo Hom, people are gullible enough to fall for them so if they're still angry, they should be angry at their own stupidity.
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Why can't cultural preservation and integrity be carried out individually? Shouldn't one feel the need to do so to begin with?
Not quite sure I understand what your trying to ask here, but I will give it a go.
Integrity of being is just the essence of being who you are. What qualities define you, what makes you who you are.
Hmong integrity of being would be what qualities define being Hmong. I would argue that culture is the quality which defines what a Hmong is. So if culture is not preserved, not propagated, but rather replaced with other forms (such as christianities) then the Hmong integrity is compromised and/or even destroyed. So hence culture goes hand in hand with integrity of being. Remove and replace culture and a Hmong is not a Hmong anymore, but become something else.
Hmong are not like other people who have a state/country whereby they can fall upon geography as well to define themselves, such as the states of India, Japan, Qatar, China, etc. These people have land/geography/state (with written constitutions giving and defining citizenships) and culture. Hmong are a stateless people. Hmong have no land and only culture. Hmong qualities are few, thin, and fragile. So Hmong better be very careful and realize this... If they want and value some semblance of a nation/ethnicity.
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Whether he is only 2 star General or not. People was able to rally behind him. Got to give em credit for that. As for Neo Hom, people are gullible enough to fall for them so if they're still angry, they should be angry at their own stupidity.
Well yes and no to the NeoHome issue.
I would say those who bought VP’s fake positions for prestige deserve (somewhat) what they got... However, those who really put faith in VP and NeoHome because they actually thought VP was going to try to take back the old country didn’t deserve the betrayal.
Regardless VP shouldn’t have done what he did with the scam. Some people trusted him (albeit misplaced), like the Hmong Havzoov and some Hmong Americans who returned to Laos to die. If VP was a good person he would not do that. He played with their lives so that he could keep the scam going, for the scam became his livelihood.
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How are you so certain that it was GVP himself whom order or orchestrated this scam? I say unless you have proof, you shouldn't be speculating/bad mouthing someone whom can no longer speak or defend him/herself. Besides, no matter how bad or what he did in the past, you should at least be a little grateful that it was his involvement in the secret war that you were able to come here as a refugee or born in this country from a refugee parent.
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How are you so certain that it was GVP himself whom order or orchestrated this scam? I say unless you have proof, you shouldn't be speculating/bad mouthing someone whom can no longer speak or defend him/herself. Besides, no matter how bad or what he did in the past, you should at least be a little grateful that it was his involvement in the secret war that you were able to come here as a refugee or born in this country from a refugee parent.
Do I have documents or some tape recording of VP himself speaking and thus proving that he orchestrated the scam? No.
Is it reasonable to deduce that he did so? Yes.
Anyone sane and of average intelligence can realize that selling military ranks (Generals and Colonels) and Government positions is a scam. And since VP is the head of the organization he either encouraged it or at the very least had knowledge of it and allowed it to occur.
Edit: Go listen to the link I provided. And check out the rest of the videos on that Koompheej Channel.
To further buttress this position, in around 1995 or so, when General Thonglith came to visit my father he said that NeoHome had turned a scam aimed to get money mostly. General Thonglith hung around VP in that era so he would have some intimate knowledge of it.
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Not sure why I should be grateful for VP’s involvement and losing the war... Regardless of him we’d be here.
Certainly I appreciate his efforts during the war, albeit it was everybody’s effort and not just his, but how does the past wash away his misdeeds of the NeoHome era?
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Not sure why I should be grateful for VP’s involvement and losing the war... Regardless of him we’d be here.
Certainly I appreciate his efforts during the war, albeit it was everybody’s effort and not just his, but how does the past wash away his misdeeds of the NeoHome era?
I believe your angers are misdirected. If you're going to be mad, be mad at those whom are leading these misinform flocks and not at a dead man. As I recall, he did use Cob Phab(Chao Fa) but everyone made their own decisions. They aren't been forced to carry out the mission. It was their radical believes that got them there. I don't know how old you are, but I can certainly assure you that I'm old enough to grasp activities at the camp I'd stayed in Thailand and knows that Cob Phab believers are hardcore, they don't just believe GVP but they believe in their own misplaced ability. They'd chose to take their own families and go to their deaths. What he did can't be washed but you can't pinned everything on him because it's totally no his fault either. You can of, course, place blame on stupidity. Whether it's Cob Phab or Hmoob Teb Chaws, although they have different names, they're one in the same... Just thought you should know, if you haven't already...
All I'm saying is that we, need to recognize history and move on. History serves as a lesson so that we can learn from it and not repeat it. It's time to move on! Let's focus on becoming a self sufficient people that any country would wish to have and rely on.
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All I'm saying is that we, need to recognize history and move on. History serves as a lesson so that we can learn from it and not repeat it. It's time to move on! Let's focus on becoming a self sufficient people that any country would wish to have and rely on.
Yes we need to recognize history, but in accurate way, and not in some white washed fashion, which you seem to want. You’re blaming everyone and every other group and minimizing Vaj Pov himself.
There are several layers to what Vaj Pov did during the NeoHome era.
1) He monetarily scammed Hmong USA/Western for funds.
2) He ideologically/politically scammed Hmong USA/Western and Hmong Thailand/Laos that his goal is to take back LosTsuas, and to be fair, that may have been part of his intentions. But he should have recognized the futility of it, as even when America gave guns, planes, bombs, ammunitions, air support,and money, Hmong couldn’t even hold onto LoojCeeb. In the 80’s the major foreign support was gone (other than sparsely from the Thais and Chinese), so he couldn’t have possibly believed any mission of that magnitude would succeed.
3) Him and his group threatened harm to those Hmong who knew of his scam (or saw it for what it really is) and wanted to save the Hmong Havzoov from him and NeoHomes influence.
For Hmong Thailand, LosTsuas, and Caubfab, they mostly fall into category 2. Sure, they had their own goals and ambitions. But Vaj Pov had a hand in it as well... My father still recalls the infamous VP audio cassette tapes (early 80’s) urging Hmong on, “... ua tiag tiag peb yuav tau mus noj pebcaug tim Veescam (Vientiane)...”
Some Hmong stayed in the jungles for decades counting on Vaj Pov’s words and so many died... A man of his age and experience, and if he had good character, shouldn’t have done what he did.
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I’m not mad, as you seem to suggest, but I do want Hmong to see reality for what it is. And that is that Vaj Pov was just a man, like any man, and had flaws. And these character flaws caused many Hmong to suffer and die after the official Secret War was over.
I am rather embarrassed that some Hmong, particularly that of the xeem Vaj, have done these:
1) Called Vaj Pov as Vaj Hmoob.
2) That somehow Vaj Pov was the one who lead every (or the vast majority) Hmong to America (similar to what you, Nightrider, wrote earlier) and even the West (Canada, France, Australia, etc) as if he had a proactive hand in doing so. This is far from the truth.
If these Hmong are just propagandizing for a political purpose then I will applaud them for being somewhat smart. There are still fraudulent/political groups today which wish to use VP’s name to form organizations (similar to NeoHome) so they can continue to collect money off of the gullible Hmong. Terrible intentions on their part, but at least they have brains and clarity.
But oh boy, if these Hmong truly believe in those words (1 and 2, especially the latter) then they’re very ignorant and are the conned.