PebHmong Discussion Forum

Life & Living => Faith & Beliefs => Topic started by: w1s3m0n on July 05, 2017, 03:41:52 AM

Title: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: w1s3m0n on July 05, 2017, 03:41:52 AM
Neitzche wrote:

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

Jordan Peterson and Ravi Zachariah are conservative Christian who understands the god is dead quote as understood by Neitzche.  Neitzche knew if God is dead, man would unleash tyranny on himself without restraint.  As we have come to know without the notion of God many men have found the works of Nicolle Makaveli insightful to political progress (purging).  Stalin with the millions of Russians murdered for political purging.  Mao with the millions of Chinese.  Pol Pot with the millions.  God is dead and so too are our moral grounding and the end justifies the means.  Today Chinese will say millions are worth a unified China.  How so easily those words roll off their tongues as benefactors of the suffering and lives lost.   They didn't seem to care Or empathize with the suffering or pay any respect to their sacrifices.  Tomorrow, is the cost of hundreds of millions human dignity acceptable for progressing AI and Automation?  If God is dead, and in accordance to the Prince by Makaveli, ABSOLUTELY!  Is a world where your child is a means to an end a world worth embracing?  Or should we embrace a world of compassion, love and empathy?  If God is dead, who will stop monsters?  Good men?  On what grounds?  What mode/mindset will secularism show again?
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Visualmon on July 14, 2017, 05:57:50 AM
What if I tell you a story about my experience of having a rapport with God, will you be able to listen? I don't think so.  ::) ;D
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: w1s3m0n on July 14, 2017, 01:49:23 PM
What if I tell you a story about my experience of having a rapport with God, will you be able to listen? I don't think so.  ::) ;D

Please share.  How do you know?  What is there to be afraid of?  Rejection?  LOL...
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Visualmon on July 14, 2017, 06:20:31 PM
Please share.  How do you know?  What is there to be afraid of?  Rejection?  LOL...

I ain't afraid. I've got a feeling that you'll never believe everything that I'm gonna explain.  :-\ :knuppel2:
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on July 17, 2017, 10:30:49 PM
This is why socialism is not only anti-Christian but anti-humankind.

It comes under the guise of peace and equality but the results are neither. Why? Because people are born uniquely different with different talents and skills. There will never be equal outcome. Socialism proposes to bring equal outcome for all. This means suppressing, stealing, and even killing some in order to bring the sameness.

Why can't Bernie Sanders supporters understand this? Why are they so stupid? Being born stupid is not a sin, but willfully choosing to be stupid is next to being godless.

Choose the gift of discernment people. But first, you must fear the lord to gain wisdom.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: anonymouse on July 17, 2017, 10:47:15 PM
When reading  this thread title. It reminds me of this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0KTUAi3uiM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0KTUAi3uiM)
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: hmgROCK on July 18, 2017, 11:49:54 AM
of course god is dead
how do you explain his absence?
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: w1s3m0n on July 18, 2017, 04:10:06 PM
I ain't afraid. I've got a feeling that you'll never believe everything that I'm gonna explain.  :-\ :knuppel2:

If you never try how do you know?  Also, how do you know your idea is worth holding onto if you never tell anyone to test the idea?  Science is all about telling ideas so others can review and challenge it.  Sometimes it takes hundreds of years or thousands before the right person with the right insight tell everybody they are wrong and that change agent may suffer a martyrdom but in the end become immortalize in history.  What's so scary?  Gosh, most people die a purposeless death...You can be immortalize ;)
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: w1s3m0n on July 18, 2017, 04:13:15 PM
of course god is dead
how do you explain his absence?

This post isn't a debate on God is or isn't.  This post assumes God is dead...now what...What shall we do now?  How shall we act and behave?

I've defended God all my life and frankly, instead of defending him, I want him dead too, so we can see what is it like without God.  How else will we appreciate something if we always have it and take it for granted.  It's like freedom and liberty...we take it for granted.  It's like justice.  We take it for granted.  Let us all imagine a world without God.  How will we achieve liberty and freedom?  Can we under Darwinian process?  Can we have morality given the sacred laws are dead too?  How will we define justice, freedom, liberty, morality, etc...  This is the revelation Neitzche had and he was AFRAID...  God is COMFORTING...b ut without God there is no comfort.  There is no place to put our morals upon...so man has to make it up...How will we???  Can we agree?  Can we arrive to a consensus?  Hard stuff now since man has to become god to make the world work again.  How ironic isn't it?  To kill god only to become god to make the world work again.   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: anonymouse on July 18, 2017, 07:23:02 PM
of course god is dead
how do you explain his absence?

How can something you claim "isn't real," be dead?
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Gucci K on July 19, 2017, 10:34:26 AM
This post isn't a debate on God is or isn't.  This post assumes God is dead...now what...What shall we do now?  How shall we act and behave?
....
we live life as it is...no need for worries of purgatory in the afterlife.  all the gifted ballers will have no one to thank but themselves and taking credit for their talents.  no one  prays to him anymore, which means christian women will be praying to me, instead!

thank god, i'm alive!  :D ;D
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Reporter on August 03, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
If killing God makes us "murderers of all murderers," then that means we have killed a murderer; we have killed God. So, God is a murderer then?

Neitzche wrote:

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

Jordan Peterson and Ravi Zachariah are conservative Christian who understands the god is dead quote as understood by Neitzche.  Neitzche knew if God is dead, man would unleash tyranny on himself without restraint.  As we have come to know without the notion of God many men have found the works of Nicolle Makaveli insightful to political progress (purging).  Stalin with the millions of Russians murdered for political purging.  Mao with the millions of Chinese.  Pol Pot with the millions.  God is dead and so too are our moral grounding and the end justifies the means.  Today Chinese will say millions are worth a unified China.  How so easily those words roll off their tongues as benefactors of the suffering and lives lost.   They didn't seem to care Or empathize with the suffering or pay any respect to their sacrifices.  Tomorrow, is the cost of hundreds of millions human dignity acceptable for progressing AI and Automation?  If God is dead, and in accordance to the Prince by Makaveli, ABSOLUTELY!  Is a world where your child is a means to an end a world worth embracing?  Or should we embrace a world of compassion, love and empathy?  If God is dead, who will stop monsters?  Good men?  On what grounds?  What mode/mindset will secularism show again?
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Believe_N_Me on August 16, 2017, 03:03:29 AM
God is dead ----> an impossibility.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: DuMa on August 16, 2017, 03:39:26 AM
God is dead ----> an impossibility.

Good answer. 

If God is real then he can not be dead.  He created death and death can not consume him since he is on the outside of this thing called death. 

God then can be forgotten.  Just ask an ignorant atheist. 
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on October 05, 2017, 02:30:17 AM
of course god is dead
how do you explain his absence?

God is not dead; He is tired of biching at us for being so evil to each other to the point, we reject His offer of peace.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on April 29, 2018, 12:32:33 PM
In the absence of a Creator, everything is permissible. Does that mean all atheist will become serial killers? Nah... it just means that there's no ethical reason why they shouldn't become serial killers. They can give all sorts of reasons not to become serial killers - pragmatic, societal, personal, but none of those reasons are objectively binding on the atheist in the way that objective moral values and duties are. If atheism is true, human life is not intrinsically valuable like it is if weíre made in God's image.

Atheists can view human life as intrinsically valuable if they want, but there's no moral reason why they must. ^^

Atheists are free to refrain from murder, but there's no objectively binding command that means they have to either. ^^

And if atheism is true, thereís nothing to hold murderers ultimately accountable for their actions anyway. The atheist who hates murder and fights against it... is ultimately no better off than the atheist who does murder - they and everyone they influence will all end up as nothing more than worm food.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on April 29, 2018, 12:59:15 PM
of course god is dead
how do you explain his absence?

Romans 1
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: YeejKoob13 on May 17, 2018, 06:47:56 PM
If the christians gods die, then only positives will occur for the Hmong, I would think. Less cultural assimilation. Less conflicts between Hmong and Meos. Thats one less big headache for us to extricate from our problems.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on May 20, 2018, 06:26:40 PM
In the absence of a Creator, everything is permissible. Does that mean all atheist will become serial killers? Nah... it just means that there's no ethical reason why they shouldn't become serial killers. They can give all sorts of reasons not to become serial killers - pragmatic, societal, personal, but none of those reasons are objectively binding on the atheist in the way that objective moral values and duties are.


If atheism is true, human life is not intrinsically valuable like it is if weíre made in God's image.

Atheists can view human life as intrinsically valuable if they want, but there's no moral reason why they must. ^^

Atheists are free to refrain from murder, but there's no objectively binding command that means they have to either. ^^

And if atheism is true, thereís nothing to hold murderers ultimately accountable for their actions anyway. The atheist who hates murder and fights against it... is ultimately no better off than the atheist who does murder - they and everyone they influence will all end up as nothing more than worm food.

This proves that theist, especially Christians are immoral people. They do the  deeds not because it is good and/or the right thing to do, instead they do it out of fear of hell. You yourself just showed that you're amoral for saying that a murderer is the same as someone who fight against a murderer. And this is with your god "existing "
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on July 18, 2018, 04:20:57 PM
the Bible is nothing more than an Animal Farm book. The thickness of man's sin are all in the Old Testament.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on July 18, 2018, 05:49:26 PM
This proves that theist, especially Christians are immoral people. They do the  deeds not because it is good and/or the right thing to do, instead they do it out of fear of hell. You yourself just showed that you're amoral for saying that a murderer is the same as someone who fight against a murderer. And this is with your god "existing "

Fear of hell can be a good thing and prevents people from murder. Imagine what people would have done if there was no God?


Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on July 20, 2018, 03:28:04 AM
Fear of hell can be a good thing and prevents people from murder. Imagine what people would have done if there was no God?

That's why fear of hell isn't good. You just gave an example why. If the reason for not committing murder is out of fear,  then you never believed that it was wrong in committing murder. You were never a moral person to begin with. But if you didn't commit murder because you believe that it's wrong, then whether there is god or not, you won't commit murder. That's why some atheists don't commit murder even though they don't believe in a god or hell.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on July 20, 2018, 11:19:38 PM
That's why fear of hell isn't good. You just gave an example why. If the reason for not committing murder is out of fear,  then you never believed that it was wrong in committing murder. You were never a moral person to begin with. But if you didn't commit murder because you believe that it's wrong, then whether there is god or not, you won't commit murder. That's why some atheists don't commit murder even though they don't believe in a god or hell.

If I'm driving, I don't want to DUI or I will get arrested. It doesn't mean I never believed that it was wrong.

Going to hell is the consequences of our sin. Like if you rob a bank, you go to jail. Don't want to go to jail, then don't rob a bank.

We all know murder is wrong because we're made in the image of God. I'm not saying that atheists need to believe God to tell them murder is wrong.  The argument isn't about belief in God. The argument is that apart from Godís existence there's no such thing as objective moral value or accountability . If there is no God, then murder is not wrong.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on July 21, 2018, 03:57:33 AM
If I'm driving, I don't want to DUI or I will get arrested. It doesn't mean I never believed that it was wrong.
If you based it off of fear only, then yes,  it does.

Going to hell is the consequences of our sin. Like if you rob a bank, you go to jail. Don't want to go to jail, then don't rob a bank.
If someone really want to rob a bank and know that they are not going to jail, they will rob a bank.

We all know murder is wrong because we're made in the image of God. I'm not saying that atheists need to believe God to tell them murder is wrong.  The argument isn't about belief in God. The argument is that apart from Godís existence there's no such thing as objective moral value or accountability . If there is no God, then murder is not wrong.

Who said anything about arguing whether god exist or not?
But you still have to show evidence for, "If there is no God, then murder is not wrong." Which you haven't.

If you believe something is morally wrong objectively,  then it doesn't matter if god exist or not, it will still be wrong.

Like I said, if never commit murder because you fear going to hell, then one day you learned that god dies and doesn't exist anymore and he can't send you to hell and then you start murdering people. This means that you were never a moral person.

The example you're giving arguing from authority, in which morality is not objective because what's right or wrong is based on solely on how god feels at that moment. One day murder can be wrong and different day it can change to be right.

Two words, "the purge"
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on July 21, 2018, 07:44:49 AM
Who said anything about arguing whether god exist or not?
But you still have to show evidence for, "If there is no God, then murder is not wrong." Which you haven't.

If you believe something is morally wrong objectively,  then it doesn't matter if god exist or not, it will still be wrong.

Like I said, if never commit murder because you fear going to hell, then one day you learned that god dies and doesn't exist anymore and he can't send you to hell and then you start murdering people. This means that you were never a moral person.

The example you're giving arguing from authority, in which morality is not objective because what's right or wrong is based on solely on how god feels at that moment. One day murder can be wrong and different day it can change to be right.

Two words, "the purge"

Okay, let me go with your logic. Granted, I wasn't morally good before I came to faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe I realized how sinful my lifestyle was and needed forgiveness.

So you think you are morally good and that's why you don't believe in God?

Do you know that none doeth good? Even if think we are a good person, that's only because we compare ourselves to other people. Not before God.

I think God would rather accept a person who acknowledge their sin and come into repentance than someone who doesn't realize they are a sinner. It's called self righteous.

People can apparently still chose to the rob the bank knowing they could get away with it. Because there is no fear of God in them. If there is no God then there is no moral objective and accountability in their worldview.

If I knew that God actually does not exist, then life and everything else is utterly meaningless. I think Nietzsche understood this, he was willing to follow his worldview to its logical conclusions. Few atheists are willing to do that because they can't bear the thought of living it out. They'd do whatever they want and have no guilt of doing them and everything is legal. Except that such a thing is not logically possible.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on July 21, 2018, 07:48:00 AM
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. Objective morals exist
3. Therefore God exists

This argument could still be true even if the Bible were filled with errors and contradictions, or the biblical God were inconsistent with the moral argument. Now, I think the biblical God is consistent with the moral argument, and the Bible is perfectly trustworthy, but the point is that objections to the Bible do not disprove this argument.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on July 30, 2018, 06:24:57 AM
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. Objective morals exist
3. Therefore God exists

This argument could still be true even if the Bible were filled with errors and contradictions, or the biblical God were inconsistent with the moral argument. Now, I think the biblical God is consistent with the moral argument, and the Bible is perfectly trustworthy, but the point is that objections to the Bible do not disprove this argument.

Apparently you don't understand the divine command theory.  First of all,  what you said and using your example, you're actually contradicting the theory.  And second,  it's relevant to the context of this topic.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on July 30, 2018, 10:13:12 AM
Okay, let me go with your logic. Granted, I wasn't morally good before I came to faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe I realized how sinful my lifestyle was and needed forgiveness. nope. That's not my logic. I never said anything about you not being a moral person before you have faith in god. You are an amoral person whether it was before or during your belief in god. This is because you are only doing things out of fear.

So you think you are morally good and that's why you don't believe in God? No, that's not the reason why I don't believe in god. Morality has nothing to do with believing or not believing in god.

Do you know that none doeth good? Even if think we are a good person, that's only because we compare ourselves to other people. Not before God.

I think God would rather accept a person who acknowledge their sin and come into repentance than someone who doesn't realize they are a sinner. It's called self righteous. Actually, god rather accept a person who does not to do bad things because he knows that it is wrong and choose not to do it. That's why Noah was saved.

People can apparently still chose to the rob the bank knowing they could get away with it. Because there is no fear of God in them. That's why they are not a moral person. A moral person will still choose to not rob a bank even if they know they can get away with it. That's the difference between being moral and immoral. If there is no God then there is no moral objective and accountability in their worldview. And This would mean that morality is subjective.

If I knew that God actually does not exist, then life and everything else is utterly meaningless
. So everything is subjective. But, by doing what you said, (above in bold), you just described yourself as being self righteous. And this is why fear isn't a good thing. This is the result of fear. You follow "rules" commanded by god only out of fear so your life was/is always meaningless from the start. Morality is thrown out the window. So you just shown that objective morality doesn't exist. And this is why your argument for divine command theory fails because your premise "2. Objective morals exist" fails. Also, it was a false dichotomy to begin with.  even if objective morality I think Nietzsche understood this, he was willing to follow his worldview to its logical conclusions. Few atheists are willing to do that because they can't bear the thought of living it out. They'd do whatever they want and have no guilt of doing them and everything is legal. Except that such a thing is not logically possible.

.

Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on July 30, 2018, 10:19:33 AM
Fear of hell can be a good thing and prevents people from murder. Imagine what people would have done if there was no God?

The moral atheists will stay the same and not murder. The moral theists will stay the same not commit murder. The immoral people who didn't commit murder because they were afraid of going to hell would commit murder because they were immoral to begin with even when they believed in a hell.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on July 30, 2018, 02:36:15 PM
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. Objective morals exist
3. Therefore God exists

This argument could still be true even if the Bible were filled with errors and contradictions, or the biblical God were inconsistent with the moral argument. Now, I think the biblical God is consistent with the moral argument, and the Bible is perfectly trustworthy, but the point is that objections to the Bible do not disprove this argument.

There's no need to mention the bible. The structure of your argument is fallacious because it's circular reasoning
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on August 08, 2018, 04:50:11 PM
If God is dead, why haven't the angels from Heaven and Hell come to kill all? They hate us as much from the beginning they did to us.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 09, 2018, 01:45:00 AM
If God is dead, why haven't the angels from Heaven and Hell come to kill all? They hate us as much from the beginning they did to us.

Because they're too busy fighting a war in the other reality. Haven't you seen season 13 of supernatural?  ;D
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: DuMa on August 09, 2018, 01:34:37 PM
Can't be dead if it never lived.

So I will accept his death if you accept his living.

 :2funny:
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 09, 2018, 11:02:06 PM
nope. That's not my logic. I never said anything about you not being a moral person before you have faith in god. You are an amoral person whether it was before or during your belief in god. This is because you are only doing things out of fear.

Oh but I wasn't a morally good person before I've come to believe in God. I still sin everyday. Just being transparent here.

Yes, I fear God which lead me to believe. The Bible said to Repent and believe the Gospel. It's what Jesus and His apostles used.

As one wise preacher once said, "Until sinners hear the bad news, they are not ready to hear the Good News."

You're presupposing that somehow this is bad. I argue that it's not. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and hell is really real.

Actually, god rather accept a person who does not to do bad things because he knows that it is wrong and choose not to do it. That's why Noah was saved.

Noah was righteous before God, yes, but I don't think he was perfect like any other, but the Lord knows his/our hearts, and the remorse we feel when we sin against Him.

Righteous means right standing. He obey God and followed God's directions against what the public said to him. I don't have to listen to what you or others say, just read what God's word says about Noah.

That's why they are not a moral person. A moral person will still choose to not rob a bank even if they know they can get away with it. That's the difference between being moral and immoral. And This would mean that morality is subjective.

True, robbing a bank is wrong and immoral. If God does not exist, then moral is not objective in this way it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

So everything is subjective. But, by doing what you said, (above in bold), you just described yourself as being self righteous. And this is why fear isn't a good thing. This is the result of fear. You follow "rules" commanded by god only out of fear so your life was/is always meaningless from the start. Morality is thrown out the window. So you just shown that objective morality doesn't exist. And this is why your argument for divine command theory fails because your premise "2. Objective morals exist

Actually, no, I feel like if I remove God out of my life, I would feel more fear and have no remorse. When I am united in Christ, it changes all that.

What really happen as an atheist is this will extended into a fear that you know you are not actually saved, and a deep fear of hell set in.

What I am saying is when you remove God out of your life, you remove all the moral duties and responsibility that came with it.

Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 09, 2018, 11:11:56 PM
There's no need to mention the bible. The structure of your argument is fallacious because it's circular reasoning

It's only circular because I keep taking you back around to the truth.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 10, 2018, 03:45:05 AM
It's only circular because I keep taking you back around to the truth.

LoL.  Apparently you're ignorant of circular reasoning. You are going back to the truth. Your reason is circular because your conclusion is used as your premise.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 10, 2018, 05:14:53 PM
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist regards to the existence of god
2. Objective morals exist regards to the existence of objective morality
3. Therefore God exists  regards to the existence of god


Why it's circular reasoning. The conclusion is the same as premise 1.

Using premise 1 wouldn't be circular reasoning if the conclusion is about objective morality.

Example:
1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. God exist
3. Therefore objective morality exists

This wouldn't be circular reasoning but of course it is still a fallacy, just a different one, because there has to be proof of god's existence first.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on August 10, 2018, 07:46:20 PM
Because they're too busy fighting a war in the other reality. Haven't you seen season 13 of supernatural?  ;D

Not true. In bible history, they hated us. If God is dead, why aren't we dead yet?
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 10, 2018, 09:34:57 PM
It's not circular. It's more about the origin of the morals and how they can't be subjective, otherwise everyone would have a different meaning of right and wrong and that's not what we find.

You can say it's circular until you are blue in the face for all I care. You still have to know it's origin before you can even come to that conclusion.

If there are morals, there is a moral law giver.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 12, 2018, 11:37:54 PM
Oh but I wasn't a morally good person before I've come to believe in God. I still sin everyday. Just being transparent here.

Yes, I fear God which lead me to believe. The Bible said to Repent and believe the Gospel. It's what Jesus and His apostles used.

As one wise preacher once said, "Until sinners hear the bad news, they are not ready to hear the Good News."

You're presupposing that somehow this is bad. I argue that it's not. Apparently you don't know what presupposing means because I never said anything of the sort. I refuted your argument by using your own example, showing that you yourself, proved you wrong. And posting a random quote that has nothing to do with your argument doesn't help you in any way. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and hell is really real.

Noah was righteous before God, yes, but I don't think he was perfect like any other, but the Lord knows his/our hearts, and the remorse we feel when we sin against Him.

Righteous means right standing. He obey God and followed God's directions against what the public said to him. I don't have to listen to what you or others say, just read what God's word says about Noah.

True, robbing a bank is wrong and immoral. If God does not exist, then moral is not objective in this way it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

Actually, no, I feel like if I remove God out of my life, I would feel more fear and have no remorse. You just refuted your own argument. You showed that objective morality doesn't exist. Morality is subjective based on your own feelings
(Fear) When I am united in Christ, it changes all that.

What really happen as an atheist is this will extended into a fear that you know you are not actually saved, and a deep fear of hell set in. This would be an example of presupposition . I'll explain why it is. You assume that atheists believe in what you believe in and concluded that they fear hell like you do.

What I am saying is when you remove God out of your life, you remove all the moral duties and responsibility that came with it. And with this, you just proved that you don't think that objective morality exist. Going by your logic, either, A. morality is subjective based on the individual. Morality does not come from god.  Or B, "morality" is forced on to you by god, and that is not morality. Or c, you don't know what morality means. And this is why your argument fail like I mentioned earlier. And this is why fear of hell is a bad thing because you don't know/believe that murder is wrong. The reason why you don't commit murder is not because it's wrong, but because you are scared of hell, and when you are no longer afraid of hell, you choose to do immoral acts. 
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 13, 2018, 05:35:43 AM
Not true. In bible history, they hated us. If God is dead, why aren't we dead yet?

Because we don't need god.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 13, 2018, 09:56:14 AM
This would be an example of presupposition . I'll explain why it is. You assume that atheists believe in what you believe in and concluded that they fear hell like you do.

A materialistic worldview ultimately leads to moral skepticism, nihilism is the final condition of atheist.

If are an atheist and you disagree... then you are contradicting yourself.

You just refuted your own argument. You showed that objective morality doesn't exist. Morality is subjective based on your own feelings

I think that's how it is when God is removed. Fear sets in. You either are driven by Faith or Fear. I think being an atheist led to more fear than being a Christian.

And with this, you just proved that you don't think that objective morality exist. Going by your logic, either, A. morality is subjective based on the individual. Morality does not come from god.  Or B, "morality" is forced on to you by god, and that is not morality. Or c, you don't know what morality means. And this is why your argument fail like I mentioned earlier. And this is why fear of hell is a bad thing because you don't know/believe that murder is wrong. The reason why you don't commit murder is not because it's wrong, but because you are scared of hell, and when you are no longer afraid of hell, you choose to do


If you don't believe in God, you can't necessarily believe that murder is inherently wrong. Let me ask you a question. How do you know murder is wrong?

Even if you think murder is still wrong, you will have to show that being an atheist and having objective morality is NOT mutually exclusive. You haven't done that yet.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 13, 2018, 09:57:54 AM
Because we don't need god.

There you go. You are already presupposing that you don't need God. So of course your conclusion = God does not exist!

But everyone has presupposition al. Nobody is neutral.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 14, 2018, 01:58:02 AM
There you go. You are already presupposing that you don't need God. So of course your conclusion = God does not exist!

But everyone has presupposition al. Nobody is neutral.

Do you even know the definition of presuppose? Someone disagreeing with you is the definition of presuppose.

There is no presupping in the answer that I gave. I'll explain it to you. I answered Theafterlife's question,  "If God is dead, why aren't we dead yet?" In this topic's scenario, god is without a doubt.  And since we are still alive, we don't require god to be alive for us to be alive. If we need for us to live, then we would be dead, if is dead.

Now you what fear can do to you? You're so scared in the possibility of god not existing that it makes you want to defend god every time you have a discussion with an atheist whether it's about the existence of god or not.

Throughout this thread, I never argued for or against the existence of god. I argued that the divine command theory fails.

Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 14, 2018, 09:01:37 AM
A materialistic worldview ultimately leads to moral skepticism, nihilism is the final condition of atheist. Failed again. That's only an assertion. No evidence, so it doesn't mean that it's true.

If are an atheist and you disagree... then you are contradicting yourself. Failed again. If that's not the beliefs of an atheist,  than he/she is not contradicting themselves.

I think that's how it is when God is removed. Fear sets in. That's a possibility if you're a theist. God can't be removed from an atheist if it wasn't there to begin with. You either are driven by Faith or Fear.Failed again. False dichotomy.  I think being an atheist led to more fear than being a Christian. Failed again. In regards to this topic, your logic shows that a Christian has more fear than an atheist because you have one more fear than an atheist,
Your fear of hell. I'm not claiming that it's true but, in this thread, a Christian has been showing us a lot of his fears.
 

If you don't believe in God, you can't necessarily believe that murder is inherently wrong. Let me ask you a question. How do you know murder is wrong?still waiting on your evidence. You've dodging the question when you were asked earlier

Even if you think murder is still wrong, you will have to show that being an atheist and having objective morality is NOT mutually exclusive. You haven't done that yet.Still waiting on your evidence
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 14, 2018, 09:07:36 AM
There you go. You are already presupposing that you don't need God. So of course your conclusion = God does not exist!

But everyone has presupposition al. Nobody is neutral
.

After carfully reading this comment again. I'm starting to think that you don't know the definition of presuppose because being neutral has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 14, 2018, 11:58:26 AM
Failed again. That's only an assertion. No evidence, so it doesn't mean that it's true.

The evidence is this.

1) You don't live consistent with your worldview.

Moral skepticism such as urself who still want a general morality operating in your life, yet do not want to abandon subjectivism.

Nihilism is the final outcome, it is the ramifications of living out your life without God, but many atheist are too scared, they can't bear the thought of living it out.

2) Your worldview can't justify moral knowledge because your brain is just a machine chemically reacting to stimulus.

You have no way to know they are true.  In fact, being materialists, you would have to say they are not true.

Failed again. If that's not the beliefs of an atheist,  than he/she is not contradicting themselves.

I'm not talking about other atheists. I'm talking about YOU.

That's a possibility if you're a theist. God can't be removed from an atheist if it wasn't there to begin with.

Semantics. Also that's a revision of the term not the strict meaning of the term.

False dichotomy.

How so?

. Failed again. In regards to this topic, your logic shows that a Christian has more fear than an atheist because you have one more fear than an atheist,
Your fear of hell. I'm not claiming that it's true but, in this thread, a Christian has been showing us a lot of his fears.

Fearing Hell is certainly a reasonable thought if ur an atheist or prior to becoming a Christian, however the joy of knowing God and His Grace after becoming a Christian is far more moving thought.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 24, 2018, 10:17:03 PM
The evidence is this.

1) You don't live consistent with your worldview.On the contrary, I do live consistent.  You're the one that don't live consistent. You've shown time and time again that, you constantly change according to your fears.

Moral skepticism such as urself who still want a general morality operating in your life, yet do not want to abandon subjectivism.  How do you define moral skepticism?it's now apparent as to why your arguments fails again and again. You're confused with the meaning of these theories and what it is used for. 

Nihilism is the final outcome, it is the ramifications of living out your life without God, but many atheist are too scared, they can't bear the thought of living it out. This fails because you haven't given any evidence as to how god is needed and how it leads to nihilism. But you have shown again and again how your argument does lead to it.

2) Your worldview can't justify moral knowledge because your brain is just a machine chemically reacting to stimulus. This claim is wrong because atheists are able to justify morality. Also, the second part fails because I believe slavery is morally wrong, so just with that, I've proven that I'm not reacting to stimulus.

You have no way to know they are true.  In fact, being materialists, you would have to say they are not true. This is false, when materialism is used in this context.

I'm not talking about other atheists. I'm talking about YOU. And This is why your argument fails because you assumed what my beliefs are.

Semantics. Also that's a revision of the term not the strict meaning of the term. This is irrelevant to the topic.
But I'm assuming that you are referring to "atheism" To bring it back to the core, theism=god. Atheism=no god. Belief has nothing to do with it. But in common use these days, theism=Belief in the existence of god. Atheism=no belief in the existence of god. They are opposites, therefore saying "I believe that god exist " is a claim and burden of proof is on that claim. "I don't believe that god exist " is the default.  Believing that god don't exist is a claim, and not a requirement for atheism. And not every atheists claims that. But an atheist claim that,  that's when the burden of proof is on the atheist. In accordance with that claim, the default would be, "I don't believe that god does not exist. 

How so?

Fearing Hell is certainly a reasonable thought if ur an atheist Wrong. Fear of hell requires that you must believe hell exist in the first place. or prior to becoming a Christian, however the joy of knowing God and His Grace after becoming a Christian is far more moving thought.If That's your opinion,  then yes. However your does not determine whether somethingis true or not.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 25, 2018, 08:15:01 PM
On the contrary, I do live consistent.  You're the one that don't live consistent. You've shown time and time again that, you constantly change according to your fears.

There is no moral ought or obligation to live or think in any way in your view. It's simply just illogical and moral anarchy.

If you want to be consistent, you would have to say atheism profess to have no moral 'ought', but you certainly don't live that way.

Atheists are open to moral relativism, but they live as if there are moral absolutes.

That right there is the inconsistency.

How do you define moral skepticism?it's now apparent as to why your arguments fails again and again. You're confused with the meaning of these theories and what it is used for.


Moral skepticism is when truth isn't truth. What I find ironic about atheists is that when I reference their atheistic beliefs, they'll be the first to say that atheism isn't a belief, but a lack of belief in god. And therefore theists are to be blame for all the history of atrocities. But when they are trying to sell atheism, suddenly there exists a collective atheist mind of virtues and good will.

Atheists has No Reason for his "good" humanism. Atheist don't even know how to account for goodness and kindness without God, and yet they demand it.

This fails because you haven't given any evidence as to how god is needed and how it leads to nihilism. But you have shown again and again how your argument does lead to it.

I did via the Moral Argument.

To quote Ravi Zacharias:

"When you say there's too much evil in this world you assume there's good. When you assume there's good, you assume there's such a thing as a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. But if you assume a moral law, you must posit a moral Law Giver, but that's Who you're trying to disprove and not prove. Because if there's no moral Law Giver, there's no moral law. If there's no moral law, there's no good. If there's no good, there's no evil. What is your question?"  -  Ravi Zacharias

So  the very concept of morality requires a moral standard, which requires someone to set the standard. So, the very use of the word "morality" implies God, the moral law-giver.

The implications of not believing in a god changes your worldview in a way that lead you to meaningless because it carries no sufficient to provide for anything. Atheism does not give any reasons to support it. Go and read an honest atheist, Friedrich Nietzsche.

This claim is wrong because atheists are able to justify morality. Also, the second part fails because I believe slavery is morally wrong, so just with that, I've proven that I'm not reacting to stimulus.

How would atheists do that? Nietzsche was honest about the implications of his worldview just like when Dawkins said "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference." Most atheists deny this and pretend like they have some justification for morality. Look even your philosophers admit it, you have no justification for condemning any act as immoral, no matter how much pain it causes.

This is false, when materialism is used in this context.


 I would ask you from a purely naturalistic universe, how can anything whatsoever be right or wrong? 

There is no logical reason to trust our own reasoning. If our reasoning only is a result of natural processes.

And This is why your argument fails because you assumed what my beliefs are.


Just look at your arguments it's typically a atheist-only charge.

This is irrelevant to the topic.
But I'm assuming that you are referring to "atheism" To bring it back to the core, theism=god. Atheism=no god. Belief has nothing to do with it. But in common use these days, theism=Belief in the existence of god. Atheism=no belief in the existence of god. They are opposites, therefore saying "I believe that god exist " is a claim and burden of proof is on that claim. "I don't believe that god exist " is the default.  Believing that god don't exist is a claim, and not a requirement for atheism. And not every atheists claims that. But an atheist claim that,  that's when the burden of proof is on the atheist. In accordance with that claim, the default would be, "I don't believe that god does not exist.

Did ya'll see what dogmai said there?? She said "I believe that god exist" has the burden of proof while " i don't believe god exist" is the default and therefore does not require burden of proof."

I'm sorry but you're wrong. "Believing that god don't exist is a claim, and not a requirement for atheism"

Wrong. Fear of hell requires that you must believe hell exist in the first place.

I agree.

If That's your opinion,  then yes. However your does not determine whether somethingis true or not.

I would not argue that it is true, but sincere.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 26, 2018, 11:33:37 PM
There is no moral ought or obligation to live or think in any way in your view. It's simply just illogical and moral anarchy.

If you want to be consistent, you would have to say atheism profess to have no moral 'ought', but you certainly don't live that way.

Atheists are open to moral relativism, but they live as if there are moral absolutes.

That right there is the inconsistency.

Moral skepticism is when truth isn't truth.
 You're confused and is talking about two different and separate things here, objective morality and moral absolute.


 What I find ironic about atheists is that when I reference their atheistic beliefs, they'll be the first to say that atheism isn't a belief, but a lack of belief in god. And therefore theists are to be blame for all the history of atrocities. But when they are trying to sell atheism, suddenly there exists a collective atheist mind of virtues and good will.

Because you, like many other theists, are either confused about what atheism and theism are. That's why when having a discussion about a particular topic,  you use irrelevant responses, jump from one thing to another. Or they intentionally do it thinking it can be used to support their argument, resulting in failure.

Regarding the thing you said, ignorance have a lot to do with it.


   

Atheists has No Reason for his "good" humanism. Atheist don't even know how to account for goodness and kindness without God, and yet they demand it.

I did via the Moral Argument. No you didn't. Stating the argument is considered as evidence.
Premise dddd
  1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
I reject that premise because there's no evidence to show that it's true. You failed to that, instead, you just repeatedly reworded your assertion.
 

To quote Ravi Zacharias:

"When you say there's too much evil in this world you assume there's good. When you assume there's good, you assume there's such a thing as a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. But if you assume a moral law, you must posit a moral Law Giver, but that's Who you're trying to disprove and not prove. Because if there's no moral Law Giver, there's no moral law. If there's no moral law, there's no good. If there's no good, there's no evil. What is your question?"  -  Ravi Zacharias

So  the very concept of morality requires a moral standard, which requires someone to set the standard. So, the very use of the word "morality" implies God, the moral law-giver.
Quoting someone's morality aruguemnt, in which you based your argument on is failure to show evidence. It doesn't matter if you use his long version and/Or Your short version, the same fallacy applies, circular reasoning. Repetition doesn't make your argument any more true than the first time.

The implications of not believing in a god changes your worldview in a way that lead you to meaningless because it carries no sufficient to provide for anything.
And this why your argument fails. You just gave evidence that there is objective morality doesn't exist. Not this is irony. You refused to show evidence as to why your argument is true, but is willing to show evidence as to why your argument fails. 
Atheism does not give any reasons to support it. Go and read an honest atheist, Friedrich Nietzsche. Heres my advice for you. Don't base a book by its title, don't just read the title and assume what the book is about. If you read it , then you should re read it and/Or gave someone interpret it to you. You kept mentioning Nietzsche and his works but no understanding of it.

How would atheists do that? Nietzsche was honest about the implications of his worldview just like when Dawkins said "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference." Most atheists deny this and pretend like they have some justification for morality. Look even your philosophers admit it, you have no justification for condemning any act as immoral, no matter how much pain it causes. Atheism has no apologetics philosophers. But are philosophers who are atheists. 
 

 I would ask you from a purely naturalistic universe, how can anything whatsoever be right or wrong? 

There is no logical reason to trust our own reasoning. If our reasoning only is a result of natural processes.
 

Just look at your arguments it's typically a atheist-only charge.

Did ya'll see what dogmai said there?? She said "I believe that god exist" has the burden of proof while " i don't believe god exist" is the default and therefore does not require burden of proof."

I'm sorry but you're wrong. "Believing that god don't exist is a claim, and not a requirement for atheism"
And This fallacy is called Argumentum ad lapidem. You can't if in something that you don't have a reason to believe it. That's why the lack of belief is the default. That's why we are innocent until proven guilty. That's why in court we plea guilty or not guilty. 
I agree.

I would not argue that it is true, but sincere.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: Yengimer on August 27, 2018, 11:44:20 AM
Because you, like many other theists, are either confused about what atheism and theism are. That's why when having a discussion about a particular topic,  you use irrelevant responses, jump from one thing to another. Or they intentionally do it thinking it can be used to support their argument, resulting in failure.

Regarding the thing you said, ignorance have a lot to do with it.

I brought that up because morals contradict naturalism. Nature can only tell us what is, not what ought to be. There is no morality in nature. Anytime the atheist talks about things being either "right" or "wrong" he is talking nonsense given his worldview.

I do know what atheism is. Atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God. Atheists BELIEVES there is no God. They can't prove that, and therefore has no convincing arguments. They are believers just as much as theists. Maybe you are too afraid to defend atheism.

No you didn't. Stating the argument is considered as evidence.
Premise dddd
  1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
I reject that premise because there's no evidence to show that it's true. You failed to that, instead, you just repeatedly reworded your assertion.

So murder is moral?

Rape is moral?

I guess Slavery wasn't wrong in American too huh? it was just America's best business practice.

Racism wasn't wrong in America either, it was America's best business practice. Hitler killing 6 million Jews wasn't wrong in fact it was Germany's best business practice. 

GTFOH!!

The Moral argument in a nutshell is that God is the necessary precondition for objective morality. This basically means that something is really right and something is really wrong in all time periods. So if God does not exist, then it follow that objective morality would not exist in such a way that is binding. If culture determines morals at any time, then morals are irrelevant since today's morality can be tomorrow's morals. I would hope that's not your stance.

Theft is wrong because God's not a thief. Murder is wrong because God isn't a murderer. Adultery is wrong because God is perfectly faithful. God and Jesus Christ is the objective standard of good.

How do you feel about murder becoming "moral?" No one is born gay. There is no evidence of that no matter what people may claim.

I'll just leave it here since there's no point of answering everything you said.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 28, 2018, 11:26:09 PM
I brought that up because morals contradict naturalism. Nature can only tell us what is, not what ought to be. There is no morality in nature. Anytime the atheist talks about things being either "right" or "wrong" he is talking nonsense given his worldview.

I do know what atheism is. Atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God. Atheists BELIEVES there is no God. They can't prove that, and therefore has no convincing arguments. They are believers just as much as theists. Maybe you are too afraid to defend atheism. So you don't know what atheism is. There  must have a reason to convince someone in order for them  to believe in something.

So murder is moral?

Rape is moral?

I guess Slavery wasn't wrong in American too huh? it was just America's best business practice.

Racism wasn't wrong in America either, it was America's best business practice. Hitler killing 6 million Jews wasn't wrong in fact it was Germany's best business practice. 

GTFOH!!Well, if GTFOH!! Is your answer than the debate is over. God is not good. According to the bible, good did not those three acts were not immoral. 

The Moral argument in a nutshell is that God is the necessary precondition for objective morality. Repetition doesn't make it true. You've dodge the question every time I ask. Where is your evidence for god being necessary for objective morality? How can we determine whether it's moral or immoral.  This basically means that something is really right and something is really wrong in all time periods. So even if you can prove it, you said that if god is dead, then objective morality doesn't exist. That's a contradiction, since in the time period that god is dead, objective morality doesn't exist.  So if God does not exist, then it follow that objective morality would not exist in such a way that is binding.  If culture determines morals at any time, then morals are irrelevant since today's morality can be tomorrow's morals. I would hope that's not your stance.

Theft is wrong because God's not a thief.The was 2nd immoral act the he committed in the garden of Eden. He stole Adam's rib while he was sleeping to make eve. [ /color] Murder is wrong because God isn't a murderer. Noah's flood ring a bell?Adultery is wrong because God is perfectly faithful. god wanted a son of flesh so bad that he raped, "violated" mary, even though he could've created one by himself. I guess one could argue that he didn't want to it violate himself. God and Jesus Christ is the objective standard of good. Back to where, how do we determine that god is that? If we can,  then god is not necessary since we can determine that for ourselves.

How do you feel about murder becoming "moral?" No one is born gay. There is no evidence of that no matter what people may claim. If you look at it, god could be argued as being born gay. There was a son and a father, but no mother. 

I'll just leave it here since there's no point of answering everything you said.

Unless if you mean that god is the precondition for objective morality because he is immoral, so that we will  not do what he Did? Then why worship him?
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on August 29, 2018, 09:03:11 AM
Like I said, there's no need to prove that exist in order to debunk your moral argument.  And since your moral argument is debunked,  that can't be use as evidence to prove god exist. 
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on September 11, 2018, 04:49:40 PM
Because we don't need god.

If you don't need God, then why do good and evil? That belongs to God. Freewill creates good and evil since God is not a dictator that force everybody to be good. So why not be a robot?
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on September 12, 2018, 03:41:07 AM
If you don't need God, then why do good and evil?if you don't know the answer to that question, then you don't have a clue what morality is.  That belongs to God. Freewill creates good and evil wrong. Freewill doesn't create good and evil. Based off of your responds, you totally missed what is being discussed here. Your idea of freewill has nothing to do with morality in regards to this discussion.   since God is not a dictator that force everybody to be good. So why not be a robot? I choose not to be a robot because I want to do "good" deeds knowing that they are actually good. Robots are those like you and those who believe morality is dependent on god. They think they have freewill, but it's just an illusion. Their  actions are based solely  on the commands given to them. They don't and/or can't distinguish whether it is good or evil, only that they must follow. This thread is evidence of that. It's shown that once they are free, their "reality " falls apart. Like robots, they cant function outside of their commands. Theres good news though, humanity. we are humans and not "robots". Our minds are not bound to commands like robots. We have the ability to evolve our ways of thought. If god is dead, many people will become lost. Those who don't evolve dies out, those who does evolve, will lead mankind to their next chapter of existence, whatever it may be.
 

Btw, it's not mine, it's Nietzsche.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: DuMa on September 12, 2018, 07:19:07 AM
If there is no God, the god believing people will be the first to get annihilated.  Why?

Christian people are supposed to be the most softest people.  Just like the Amish people.  If they were not being protected, they too would be annihilated.  If you shoot them with guns, they don't have guns to shoot back.  It is taught in the Bible that thou shalt not kill.  A gun is a weapon to kill.  While I don't know the real numbers but I'm saying that the church folks that I know, do not believe in violence so they do not own any weapon.  Even if you strike them, they will give you their other cheeks so you can finish the job.  Them saints and holy figures like Jesus Christ did not fight back when they are being prosecuted. 

If this is the case and when there is no God, no law, a Savage world, the Christians will be the first to go.  They believe that it must be God's will.  Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, rapture before the resurrection. 
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on September 18, 2018, 06:44:20 PM
If there is no God, the god believing people will be the first to get annihilated.  Why?

Christian people are supposed to be the most softest people.  Just like the Amish people.  If they were not being protected, they too would be annihilated.  If you shoot them with guns, they don't have guns to shoot back.  It is taught in the Bible that thou shalt not kill.  A gun is a weapon to kill.  While I don't know the real numbers but I'm saying that the church folks that I know, do not believe in violence so they do not own any weapon.  Even if you strike them, they will give you their other cheeks so you can finish the job.  Them saints and holy figures like Jesus Christ did not fight back when they are being prosecuted. 

If this is the case and when there is no God, no law, a Savage world, the Christians will be the first to go.  They believe that it must be God's will.  Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, rapture before the resurrection.

Do you mean, "Thou shall not murder?"

There is a difference between kill and murder. If you kill someone out of defense, that's fine since your protecting your family.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: DuMa on September 18, 2018, 07:32:41 PM
Do you mean, "Thou shall not murder?"

There is a difference between kill and murder. If you kill someone out of defense, that's fine since your protecting your family.

What about abortion?
What about man slaughter?

It applies to human life.  It does not forbids any other creatures of the fields.

A disciple of Jesus was protecting  him at the scene of the garden before his crucifixion.  He cuts off the soldier's ear.  Jesus say to put his sword down.  How you justify that?  In defense to protect and still gets it. 
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on September 29, 2018, 05:12:59 PM
What about abortion?
What about man slaughter?

It applies to human life.  It does not forbids any other creatures of the fields.

A disciple of Jesus was protecting  him at the scene of the garden before his crucifixion.  He cuts off the soldier's ear.  Jesus say to put his sword down.  How you justify that?  In defense to protect and still gets it.

Quote: What about abortion?

Abortion is bad since your not putting your anger on the suspect. How can you put your anger on an unborn baby who didn't do no wrong to you? That's the suspect's fault, not the baby. Also, you can kill rapist as it is allow by God.

Quote: "What about man slaughter?"

God hates when man makes a bad decision and He gets really angry when we do this. Here to what Howard Storm have to say about the Jews in WWII:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AjcfM75gI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AjcfM75gI)

God gave us freewill and we abuse it. Is it God's fault or our fault? Many people would blame God for giving them a brain, two hands, and two legs since they didn't ask for these things in their lives since they see responsibility as suffering, evil, and cruel. They see that feeling so alive is evil because some people would prefer to become robots and suppress their freewill and emotions as I see it in Buddhism. God doesn't want man to do this and He doesn't like when we do this. He hates these actions more than we do. All of the dying; all of the suffering; all the deaths. He gave us freewill to take action and responsibility to be a man to that we can prepare ourselves in the spiritual life. As to Howard Storm's claim, this physical world is just a bad dream. Nothing is more real then Heaven. Heaven is a place of HD quality in ecstasy, steroids mode. Killing and man-slaughtering with no reason is murder. California state law agrees that there is a difference between killing person with a good reason vs. killing a person without a good reason. I mean, if you kill someone out of defense and would prefer not to be a dumb pacifist like any Hmong people in the dynastic times, which totally explain why Hmong have no country, how would you defend your family, people, or friends from a coming threat?

In the Book of Samuel, man disobey God since man weren't suppose to have a nation, or even create one. Having a nation is no different than creating a mob group that are fill with gangsters. There is no difference between nations vs. mafia because they are the same. God doesn't man do this because they weren't ready to make a nation. In fact, it's pointless to make nation since in the Book of Daniel, God will destroy every man's nation because of their cruelty. They worship money and success over their Creator and He doesn't like when we don't recognize Him as a parent and creator. Reading the Old Testament was quite a journey since coming to understand what God doesn't like the most are the poor actions and decisions in man. That's what He hates the most to the point, He would weep for you.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on September 29, 2018, 05:36:58 PM
What about abortion?
What about man slaughter?

It applies to human life.  It does not forbids any other creatures of the fields.

A disciple of Jesus was protecting  him at the scene of the garden before his crucifixion.  He cuts off the soldier's ear.  Jesus say to put his sword down.  How you justify that?  In defense to protect and still gets it.

"A disciple of Jesus was protecting  him at the scene of the garden before his crucifixion.  He cuts off the soldier's ear.  Jesus say to put his sword down.  How you justify that?  In defense to protect and still gets it."

Jesus says love your enemy as your own since I have troubling time to love my enemies upon my heart. There are two types of enemies that I know: one is a monster and the other is made and doesn't know what he/she is doing. The ones that are made, I will weep for you and will like to give you a hug because they needed one. The monster are born and rejects all ethics and sees ethics as racist, discrimination against his/her nature and will, and will kill you because of their/your good nature of statutes, I can't forgive those because they know what is right from wrong and see morality to be racist and evil are twisted evil people. They would use morality as a gun to kill and twist people's minds to brainwash them and the people that are doing that are our leaders who are obsess with power. As according to the Book of Samuel, we traded God with a human king; yet, we didn't recognize how powerful God really is since we doubted our Lord and Savior. Do you know what happened after that? God coldly ignores our prayers like a wife that doesn't want to talk to her husband who cheated on her. Basically, in that situation, it's more like, "Get the F-out of my face," but not saying it into their face--literally. It's more like a cold way of saying it. I understand women when they feel cheated and will not talk to their husband because of that reason. They give that look on their husband if you know what I mean.

Jesus wants us to love the ones who are hurt and got turn into a monster from a monster who is born to be one. The made are easy to fix and I will like to give them a hug. The ones that are born as a monster, I don't know how to love them as a Christian family unless they are made to be. When war is made between God and evil, there are times like when God killed the Amalekites who hated Him after seeing His presence. I mean, imagine you say hello to a stranger just to make some friends and they hate you because they see you. They don't want to see you because it makes them look wrong when they make sooooo many claims that you don't exist. What will you do when they do to shut you out? That's what I mean when Pharaoh in Egypt, who thinks the Jewish God doesn't exist, or even think that the Jews are a bunch of crazy people, he saw God and God made him look wrong like an idiot because of his claims that God doesn't exist--except theirs only. I mean, if you were an atheist, making so much claims that God doesn't exist, how will you feel if you found out that you are wrong? Not many people can accept this because truth hurts. Those are the ones that I cannot love and have trouble loving them after visiting God or knowing God; yet rejects His presence because it offends them by knowing truth. Truth can discriminate one's evil nature and they will treat as a threat and find it to be a racist act upon their community of evil people (Like Dr. Evil and his evil team or any other evil team). As a human, like you and I, there are times you might have to pick up a gun and defend your family from death. God will understand it because He even say that if you are being attack, you can have the right to defend yourself, even if it means to the point of accidental death. God can forgive those people who kill someone by accident because the punishment is very super light. All you need to do is tell Him what you did and He will give you a quiet lecture rather than scolding you with a beating. All of this can be found in the Old Testament if you read it traditionally as in, thoroughly.

God loves you and He will always be with you. God doesn't like superstars who are selfish, egotistic pricks; God likes the ones who seeks for Him because of their tears and pain. God will die for those first before the ones are saved already. Jesus loves you and may God be with you.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on September 29, 2018, 05:46:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AjcfM75gI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AjcfM75gI)

DuMa, I think you should watch this. I've changed a little and know what God really wants man to do is to love and care. Having a nation is meaningless to Him; although, I do want a Hmong country to claim as home for all of our people, I understand that it will not last long. From my previous accounts from Hmong having a nation, I am very proud to be Hmong because of our intellect to be the first Asian tribe that burst out of China to be the first dynastic empire ever recorded in Chinese history.

Go to 1:09:42 and hear the rest if you want. It might answer to what you are seeking for. This nation of America reminds me of privileges people who abuse their wealth and power to do evil things to their likings.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on October 04, 2018, 02:52:46 AM
Quote: What about abortion?

Abortion is bad since your not putting your anger on the suspect. Anger isn't the only reason for abortion. You stated below killing with a good reason isn't murder, so you are contradicting yourself. Going by your logic, abortion isn't bad if there is a good reason to do it. How can you put your anger on an unborn baby who didn't do no wrong to you? That's the suspect's fault, not the baby. Also, you can kill rapist as it is allow by God. is it alright to kill someone who raped you 10 years ago and now you have only just identify who that person is? Or is it murder? That person is/was a rapist. How long of a period would you consider as justifiable to kill that rapist?   

Quote: "What about man slaughter?"

God hates when man makes a bad decision and He gets really angry when we do this. Here to what Howard Storm have to say about the Jews in WWII:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AjcfM75gI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AjcfM75gI)

God gave us freewill and we abuse it. Is it God's fault or our fault? Many people would blame God for giving them a brain, two hands, and two legs since they didn't ask for these things in their lives since they see responsibility as suffering, evil, and cruel. They see that feeling so alive is evil because some people would prefer to become robots and suppress their freewill and emotions as I see it in Buddhism. following commands without determining whether or not it's good or bad is also a robot. Pointing a gun at your head a make you choose between only two options isn't freewill. God doesn't want man to do this and He doesn't like when we do this. He hates these actions more than we do. All of the dying; all of the suffering; all the deaths. He gave us freewill to take action and responsibility to be a man to that we can prepare ourselves in the spiritual life. As to Howard Storm's claim, this physical world is just a bad dream. Nothing is more real then Heaven. Heaven is a place of HD quality in ecstasy, steroids mode. Killing and man-slaughtering with no reason is murder. California state law agrees that there is a difference between killing person with a good reason vs. killing a person without a good reason.what would you consider as good reason? How do you determine what is a good reason? Anyone can claim self defense for their actions. Some would say that the 9/11 attack was justified. Was is your thoughts on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during ww2? I mean, if you kill someone out of defense and would prefer not to be a dumb pacifist like any Hmong people in the dynastic times, which totally explain why Hmong have no country, how would you defend your family, people, or friends from a coming threat?

In the Book of Samuel, man disobey God since man weren't suppose to have a nation, or even create one. Having a nation is no different than creating a mob group that are fill with gangsters. There is no difference between nations vs. mafia because they are the same. God doesn't man do this because they weren't ready to make a nation. In fact, it's pointless to make nation since in the Book of Daniel, God will destroy every man's nation because of their cruelty. They worship money and success over their Creator and He doesn't like when we don't recognize Him as a parent and creator. Reading the Old Testament was quite a journey since coming to understand what God doesn't like the most are the poor actions and decisions in man. That's what He hates the most to the point, He would weep for you.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on October 05, 2018, 05:34:16 PM
Quote: "Anger isn't the only reason for abortion. You stated below killing with a good reason isn't murder, so you are contradicting yourself. Going by your logic, abortion isn't bad if there is a good reason to do it."

Do you lock your doors at night? If you do, then you believe in self defense. It's okay to kill someone out of self defense. Stupid pacifist will end up like how Hmong people are too nice to their new guest that they invited in their village.

Quote: "s it alright to kill someone who raped you 10 years ago and now you have only just identify who that person is? Or is it murder? That person is/was a rapist. How long of a period would you consider as justifiable to kill that rapist?"

What is more valuable, culture laws or your conscience? I myself am not a dogmatic person in cultural laws that was made by man in order to propaganda everyone as I see it in Book of Judges and the two books of Kings. As you made a statement about abortion, you have all the rights to kill the suspect; however, don't kill the child, but dump the child by giving it to the government's hand. How wrong can that be? It isn't wrong to kill and justify a rapist. All rapist that we all know of has been persecuted by government, state law, morality, ethics, etc. You say, "The Rapist Holocaust," because of ethics and morality that persecutes and discriminate against their action. This is also similar to the argument between 'natural born monsters vs. man made monsters.' Natural born will always be a monster because they like to hurt people and not themselves. They find it to be paradise by murdering, purging, rape, profane however they like or want, and many more horrendous acts to come. It's like enlightenment on ecstasy for them. People who make monsters can be heal through psychology or any other test to make then sane again.

What does this have to do with abortion? You have to understand the mind of a rapist why they do of what they do. If they continue their nature of unnatural behavior, we will have no choice but to exterminate the rapist community to justify and force peace upon on everyone. I understand that peace is not everyone's taste, but forcing peace is okay in my opinion. My older brother thinks its dictatorship by forcing peace upon everybody because he thinks there is no freedom to practice evil or be naughty for once Pete sake. As I think to counter his part, then there will always be a continuous genocide if we cannot contain evil within our grasp. Rape is wrong--yes indeed. Forcing a rape not to practice rape at all is okay, even if it violates their freewill to rape. If someone rapes you 10 years ago; yet failed to trial, let's say the suspect is a rich man. Jail are meant for poor people, not for the rich. That is why there is no fair trial if you come to think about it since rich people can bribe and buy off the jury like it's nothing to them. Therefore, lies will be made everywhere in the courtroom. There is no justice in the courtroom and I seem to understand where you are coming from. To identify the rapist, you don't need to identify him/her if you see their faces. If you haven't seen their faces, then you must have been drugged pretty badly when it's your fault for going to the wrong party. It tells me they don't have enough brains to decide who is their friend or foe. Some people have the lack of common sense of telling the differentiatio n of friends and enemy to a social skill behavior. This only happens if a person is a moron, hanging out with the wrong friends. However, if the rapist comes out of nowhere, let's say a dark alley, you are with your boyfriend--he gets shot while you get rape and shot as well. That can be justify easily because the suspect who killed the two victims may have a reason why he did it, but the details doesn't matter since there is no such thing as, "Buts." No 'buts' in the courtroom because it's making a lame excuse without any evidence to backup your story if you are the suspect who shot and rape the two victims.

Quote: "following commands without determining whether or not it's good or bad is also a robot. Pointing a gun at your head a make you choose between only two options isn't freewill."

Ok, you have two options: Lock your doors at night so you can stay safe, or don't lock your doors and face the consequences from the outside. You are in the position of a life and death situation. If you don't think this is freewill, then what is it? Freewill and our emotions are the true dictator if you look it closely. It's sad that we are design to be this way where we must have a brain, two legs, and two hands to suffer for we must know, "responsibility ." I understand where you are coming from. If you'd think freewill is dictatorship, learn to get rid of your emotions. No matter what you do, it's inevitable to get rid of what you are made to do. Why do you think Buddha wish that he is rock after death? He believes that being a rock is the most blessing thing ever in order to be just that. What do rocks dreamed of? Easy: being nothing. As a Christian, God loves you because He doesn't want you to get rid of your brain, two hands, and two legs because they are important. If you don't like them, you can donate your body parts to someone who really needs. To what I am saying, "If nothing dictates you, then the nothing will dictate you rather than freewill and emotions." A true robot, my friend, is to live without a mind. There's a brain, but it has not mind. You can rape it, it feels nothing; you can hurt it physically, it feel nothing. Is it alive? No! It's a machine that is just there for you.

Man has the most freewill ever recorded. If you look at the Book of Kings 1 and 2, we totally abused our freewill in order to prove that God's way is better than men's way. Humans tend to abuse it and find righteous people to be racist, mean, and don't want to pay a heed to their words because it's annoying, bothersome, etc. Bad people don't like to change--that's the bottomline. God gives freewill to bad people; however, as for I, I won't give freewill to bad people. I understand why Superman becomes a dictator in the end because there is no order and just. God loves you differently from what I love you as a person. My love for evil people is zero since I have a hard time to love my enemies. Monsters don't learn; scums do. Monsters sees the devil in the form, but never change because they like it. God only gives you two options on a life and death situation because your life depends on it.

Quote: "what would you consider as good reason? How do you determine what is a good reason? Anyone can claim self defense for their actions. Some would say that the 9/11 attack was justified. Was is your thoughts on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during ww2? "

What are your thoughts of the Hmong people died in China during WWII? They raped us and killed us. What's your thought? God will allow death to go around because of freewill for bad people to do the heck they want. It's like saying, "Why will Batman allow the Joker to live to do more ugly things in Gotham?" God is God, but I, I am different. God will give you freewill to do good and evil because of responsibility . As for me, if you are my child, I will never give you the opportunity to go partying, drinking, smoking, or anything that is evil or self-destructive because I will protect you from doing those actions. You say, "overprotected on ecstasy." If you fail in school in God's eyes, He will tell you do it better and not fail. That I can agree. If you murder, God will punish you as He sees fit, which depends on the situation of the crime. As for me, if you murder someone, even if you are my child, I will not do what God will do. I will either disregard you as my son/daughter and will never consider you my child. In fact, I will buy a plane ticket and send you off to the most dangerous country for you to survive if you can. That's the difference between me and God. God loves you differently, but I am a little darker. He gives freewill for you to know evil; I won't. I don't mind if I am dictator by forcing people to do good only and never know evil. This is MY force peace, not God. God loves you and I know how He is. There a taste that I don't like from Him is that He allows human to know evil. I will never allow my child to know evil and I will control that child to do only good.

When you look at the Philippine Island and their country, they kill drug dealers on the spot. I agree. Rich people will buy out the court and make it seem like they are innocent. Therefore, kill them. Now, just look at the crime rate in the Philippine Islands about drugs. It decreases enormously. Therefore, crime is going down.

If you agree on God side, good for you, I don't care. I understand His way is better than my way. My way is dictatorship. His way allows freewill for all, even evil gets it as well. If you like my way, where no evil speak or have the right to speak, then I like you. If you do it God's way, I will not hate you, but we have our differences like Batman and Superman on the moral perspective. I do discriminate evil people with no heart. God loves evil people because He can straight them out without bloodshed. Me, I will exterminate evil from the face of earth because I am only human. I respect your view once you read the Bible. I read it and I don't like how He let evil speak and do numerous things that are horrendous just to prove Him right.

Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on October 05, 2018, 05:56:09 PM
God will give you what you want and need. I only give you what you need, but never your want. That's the difference between God and I. If you see it my way, then dictatorship as it is. If you see it in God's way, then be prepare for a mass death because you allow the Joker to live to run amok around the place.

Batman the Dark Knight, I love the movie, but I disagree the moral behind it. Killing the Joker is okay in my taste, not God. If it's God's way, He will straight the Joker out in a matter of an instant like how He has done it with the NDE people. He's doing His best to save humanity, but my way is a lot faster; however, messier with bloodshed. Your choice. There's bloodshed on both side already. Kill the Joker/The Devil, or don't kill the Joker/The Devil. Your choice. Just to let you know, evil cannot be destroy. To destroy evil, you have to destroy conscience, freewill, emotions, and everything that comes from it. You have to destroy a mind, a thought, and a existence. If exist is destroy, then nonexistence dies with it. It means, number zero cease to exist as all the negative and positive numbers dies with it. The "Blank" will cease to exist and every definition to define "The Define" goes into chaos, limbo, oxymoron universe, etc. If this is what you wish, welcome to my world of dictatorship, not from God or Yeshua. Yeshua will prevent this from happening because He can. I am no better than He.

If you truly understand why Siddhartha Gautama chooses the life of a mindless rock, is to find absolute peace of no freewill, no emotion, and no way of thinking. His point of view to eliminate evil is to get rid of your emotions and all of desires. As a Hmong person like I, I only love you as a human standard, not God-standard. If you want to know God, read His book. There are some things that I find some taste in God that I might not like. The only thing that I don't like is loving your enemies. That's the one part I struggle.

Just read His book and you will know why God allowed so many deaths and evil to happen because of our emotions, freewill, and our abusing of everything of what we do. Josiah is the Batman in the Book of Kings 1 and 2 who is born from the cesspool of Israel and Assyria.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on October 05, 2018, 06:18:37 PM
Los hais lis nov xwb mas. Kuv hlub neeg phem tau mas; tam sis, yog kuv hlub neeg dab ces, kuv ua tsis tau. Koj yuav pib lis cas kom koj hlub ib tug neeg dab yug los ua txhua txhua yam phem rau neeg mas? Neeg dab hab neeg phem yeej txawv os. Tus neeg dab yog neeg dab; tus vwm yog neeg vwm; tus los ua phem los ua phem. Cov dab nov mas, kuv tsis paub hlub lawv vim rau qhov lawv ntxub txoj cev hloov rau qhov txoj cev hlooj yog ib qhov qias rau lawv hab sawv daws. Lawv lub neeg ces, lawv xav ua lub neeg lwj liam qias quav rau qhov lawv nyiam yeev. Koj hais lawv ntau zau lis cas los, lawv yeej tsis xav hnov. Kawg ua lis cas xwb? Neeg dab yeej tsis mloog; neeg vwm yeej mloog. Dab yog dab; vwm yog vwm.

Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on October 05, 2018, 06:27:48 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6i9r02CXSk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6i9r02CXSk)

This is God's view. My view is different from His. My view is dictatorship and shun evil to a wall where the wall is longer a wall, but a infinity of no bottom. Basically, you crushed evil until they are extinct. That's my view and my perspective as I tap into morality. Morality is a gun if you don't realize it.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on October 09, 2018, 07:54:35 AM
TheAfterlife,

By reading your comments, it's clear that you're immoral.

Saying that It's ok to kill rapists because they are rapists, is immoral. And when it comes to abortion, you would let a 12 year old child suffer the pain and agony.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: TheAfterLife on October 10, 2018, 02:23:21 PM
TheAfterlife,

By reading your comments, it's clear that you're immoral.

Saying that It's ok to kill rapists because they are rapists, is immoral. And when it comes to abortion, you would let a 12 year old child suffer the pain and agony.

I am an immoral person just like you and I. However, I won't let a 12 year old to suffer if that child was a bastard child. I will let it be in the hands of the government to take care of him/her. If the government don't want to, then force it on them with a riot.

I can only love the ones who is changeable. I cannot love the ones who cannot change because they like it and they are born with it in their nature. Can you love a monster? I will love to see your comments on loving a monster if you can. Remember, there are two kinds of bad people: the changeable and the unchangeable.
Title: Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
Post by: dogmai on October 12, 2018, 03:56:19 PM
I am an immoral person just like you and I. Sorry,  it doesn't like that. Just because you are immoral, doesn't mean that you can say everyone is immoral with no reason.However, I won't let a 12 year old to suffer if that child was a bastard child. I will let it be in the hands of the government to take care of him/her. If the government don't want to, then force it on them with a riot.Who said anything about  a  12 year old bastard child? But what you just said,  you will let the child suffer knowing that there's nobody to take care of the baby. But I wasn't talking about that child. I was talking about the 12 year old that got pregnant by being raped. You would let that child suffer through 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth /color]

I can only love the ones who is changeable. I cannot love the ones who cannot change because they like it and they are born with it in their nature. Can you love a monster? I will love to see your comments on loving a monster if you can. Remember, there are two kinds of bad people: the changeable and the unchangeable.
First, you said that It's moral to kill rapists.  Now it's the monsters? So now explain what is a monster, and how do you differentiate a monster from a human. Next, how do you differentiate a "changeable monster " from an "unchangeable monster"?