Map of the "Qhuab Ke" at Hmong funeral services.

[joot]

Kuv tsis yog yuav los thuam los sis los nrog koj sib cav, tiam sid raws lid koj cov lus kuv "BOLD" ntawd - saum toj nod. Yog koj ntseeg lid koj cov lus hais, vim lid cas koj ho sau thiab hais lus Hmoob zoo lid nod thiab: (Examp: koj hais thiab sau Ntawv Hmoob zoo lid nod:  jujplig, ciajdab, Blogteb, haistxog, niajhnub nimno) Cov lus nod txais tau hais tias yog LUS Hmoob lawm no lod? Cas kuv tsis tau pom thiab paub dua lid? (Truth is, I know how it works or why you wrote that way. My point is -- is that Hmong as it was initially derived, taught, and learned since its inception?)

The rest, kuv tsis xav "debate" vim nyias muaj nyias qhov ntseeg, kawm, and personal opinion. Also, peb cov Hmoob anthropologist s/scholars are also only nyeem from other scholars exclusively or mainly and mostly. Lawd yeej tsis paub ib yam lid koj los sis kuv -- qhov tseeb versus qhov cuam, tsuas surmise via other scholars too.

And "joot", I'll give you my second, hour, or time of the day when you are semi-worthwhile okay? Till then,    ...   

Me no understand what you want to debate 'bout.  Go pick someone with same intelligence like yourself to debate with...I have no time to waste on children like you...

[chidorix0x]

Kuv ntseeg tias kuv haislus Hmoob zoo tshaj koj, nej txhuatus, tiamsis peb tseem yuav kho covntawv Hmoob no kom meej thiab sai tshaj qhovqub. Kuv xavtias ib cov tub tuaj kawmntawv li koj ,nej nkagsiab kuv covntawv thiab cov lus zoo no?

Tsisyog khav tabsis saibmus lawm yavtomntej.

Hais txog lus Hmoob xwb, tej zaum muaj lid koj hais vim feem coob, xws lid kuv, peb tuaj hlob teb chaws nod thaum peb tseem yog me nyuam ab xwb. Peb cov muaj peev xwm lid kuv mam paub, kawm, thiab hais lus Hmoob zuj zus los xwb ces yeej paub lus Hmoob tsis tag los sis meej - zoo zoo.  Ib txhia twb tsis paub hais lus Hmoob kiag lid lawm, twb tsis hais sau thiab nyeem laud.

Hos yog qhov yuav tawm tswv yim los kho Ntawv Hmoob los sis Hmoob kiag, kuv xav thiab ntseeg hais tias nej cov laus thiab peb cov hluas kuj tsis pauv tsis ntxid luaj twg. Hais txog tus Ntawv Hmoob Las Tees xwb, kuv twb pom thiab paub ntau ntau tus khav thiab npav los kho, ever since 1980s, los lawm los txog niaj hnub nod. Thaum kawg ces swb qhov "original inception" lid kuv sau etc.. Cov "simplied" muaj NTS ua J, NPL ua BL, NP ua B, ces siv tsawg kawg kias, tsis muaj lid los yog. Ua lid nod, sau J, BL, and B etc.., tsis make sense thiab yog lus los sis lub suab Hmoob lawm, koj sim ntsia mus seb pus yog nawb yog yuav sid cov Tsiaj Ntawv nod.

Qhov tseeb, kuv kuj pom zoo muab ib co lus sau uake - as compound words - lid tebchaws, menyuam, dabtsid, hnubno, but sadly that STANDARD or practice is NONEXISTENT ces tus twg xav sau lidcas los tau tagnhrolid nyobntawm tus neeg ntawd nws nyiam los pomzoo xwb. Tsistauyog ibtxoj cai lossis kev txhuatxhua tus neeg Hmoob lossis lwmhaivneeg nyiam, pomzoo, thiab saumus, uamus, sidmus.  Tsistaslidxwb, kuv pom obpebplaub yam yuav tau KHOthiabntxid, tsis need discuss here, because it is pointless. But yog muaj sauuakelidnodl awmces hajyamtsismeej lawm. Koj hoxavned pusyoglostsisy od, vim muabcabmuabtxu auaketagnrholi dlawm tsispaubqhovpi dqhovsaus lidlawmlaud -- hajyamtsisMAKE SENSElidlawmti agtiaglidosnaw b ...     ...     ...    Ustsaug.

[Tubpojntxoog]

3 years of shaman under your belt means you are a beginner.   My guess is you are probably a 20 something yr. old guy just starting to learn.  From what I have heard, some diehard shaman gets on a spiritual horse and "flys" from place to place deeper into the spiritual realm to appease the spirits of each realm.  As you go deeper, you must remember your way back, otherwise you will be spiritually lost.  You carry a sword as well to fight your way, riding on your spiritual horse.  The idea is to get to the innermost spiritual realm where the more powerful spirits causing the illness resides...some even "sees" the narrow road to heaven on their journey...hear d this from a long time shaman...BTW if you watch the American movie "INSIDIUOS", you will know what I am talking about...

Joot,

I laugh when I heard someone said or believe what you mentioned above, unless the shaman argues that not his physical body but his mind. Yes, I'm just a beginner, but my master has over three decades of experience, my uncle also has almost 40 years of experience, and my cousin has done since 1956. They all are the experts of Hmong culture. Based on my interview of these individuals, they also believe that anyone who claims to see the deads and communicate with them or see the heaven, heal, or  anything while performing is simply a big fat liar who is trying to deceive people for his personal gain. I'm telling you with my honesty, so I will leave you the choice to choose what you believe.

As you can tell from my writing that I speak broken English, no, I'm not in my 20s.

[singmong]

Qhovtseeb tiag peb covlaus yeej haislus tsis-haum nej siab, tiamsis peb xavtias kho komhaum cov laus thiab cov lhuas sawvdaws siab, tabsis, koj simxav seb, niajhnub nimno cov hluas li nej khavtheeb heev covlaus thiaj tsisxav pubmov rau noj lawm, cov hluas ho xa covlaus mus pov rautom tsev tuagtshaib. qhovno yog leejtwg li teebmeem? yog koj kuv li teebmeem ntag posyog? yuavtau kho hlwb kom meejpem, tham lub ntsiablus twg mas tham thiab kho komtiav Hmoob tiamno siv hosv...

Koj thamtxog dabqhuas, kuv nrog koj tham dabqhuas, koj pauv mus tham keebkwm, kuv nrog koj tham keebkwm, zaumno koj ho mus haistxog lu ua abtsi maj los? ua li no ces yog neeg tsis meejpem losmas. Tshuav ntauyam uas nej cov lhuas tseem yuavtau kawm thiab kho ntxiv thiaj yuavtau los ua Hmoob li thawj coj mog.

[Tubpojntxoog]

Kuv ntseeg tias kuv haislus Hmoob zoo tshaj koj, nej txhuatus, tiamsis peb tseem yuav kho covntawv Hmoob no kom meej thiab sai tshaj qhovqub. Kuv xavtias ib cov tub tuaj kawmntawv li koj ,nej nkagsiab kuv covntawv thiab cov lus zoo no?

Tsisyog khav tabsis saibmus lawm yavtomntej.

Kuv xyaum sau ntawv Hmoob pug 1984 los lawm, tiamsis kuv tsis tau pom ib tug Hmoob twg sau li singmong thiab laid. However, I'm impressed to see many of you who were born and/or raised in this country that are able to write Hmong very well. Congrat. for you and "YES" we want our hmong kids to be like you.

[chidorix0x]

Qhovtseeb tiag peb covlaus yeej haislus tsis-haum nej siab, tiamsis peb xavtias kho komhaum cov laus thiab cov lhuas sawvdaws siab, tabsis, koj simxav seb, niajhnub nimno cov hluas li nej khavtheeb heev covlaus thiaj tsisxav pubmov rau noj lawm, cov hluas ho xa covlaus mus pov rautom tsev tuagtshaib. qhovno yog leejtwg li teebmeem? yog koj kuv li teebmeem ntag posyog? yuavtau kho hlwb kom meejpem, tham lub ntsiablus twg mas tham thiab kho komtiav Hmoob tiamno siv hosv...

Koj thamtxog dabqhuas, kuv nrog koj tham dabqhuas, koj pauv mus tham keebkwm, kuv nrog koj tham keebkwm, zaumno koj ho mus haistxog lu ua abtsi maj los? ua li no ces yog neeg tsis meejpem losmas. Tshuav ntauyam uas nej cov lhuas tseem yuavtau kawm thiab kho ntxiv thiaj yuavtau los ua Hmoob li thawj coj mog.

Hmmm, yog hais lid koj hais xwb, mas kuv ntshai ntshe tsis haum kuv los sis cov hluas feem coob lid laud. Kuv tsis yog hais yam ub yam no os nawb. Ib, kuv teb koj cov lus. Ob, kuv muab/qhia "pid txwv"=example rau koj xav xwb os nawb.

Koj lo lus nod: cov hluas li nej khavtheeb heev covlaus thiaj tsisxav pubmov rau noj lawm, cov hluas ho xa covlaus mus pov rautom tsev tuagtshaib

Kuv teb qhov yooj yooj yim rau koj kiag, peb cov hluas raws lid kuv xav, ntseeg, thiab paub nrog ntau ntau tus hluas tham, tsis hais tub tsis hais ntxhais -- nej cov laus ib txwm coj, ua, qhia, kho, thiab tho txoj kev rau peb haiv Hmoob los sis peb cov me nyuam txij lid peb xyeev xwm los, nej cov laus, muab hais tiag yeej ua peb haiv Hmoob tsis muaj ib qho pom thawj zoo qauv (example) qhov twg zoo lid niaj hnub nod, cov khoom haum Hmoob thoob USA, tsis tuav npe, es ua cas peb cov hluas yuav ntseeg thiab los koom nej mad? Tsis make sense or is reasonable/logical rau peb leej twg lid laud - cov tub ntxhais tuaj hlob, yug, txawj ntse tiam nod. Koj nkag siab lawm lod.

Tsis tas lid xwb, raws lid niaj hnub nod, cov khavtheej npav yuav los kho, pab, txhawj Hmoob mus rau peb suab yog nej cov laus ntau tshaj peb cov hluas. Hais qhov tseeb tseeb, kuv tsis tau pom thiab paub kuv phaj rov hauv los khavtheej nrog nej cov laus thiab cov tub ntxhais hlob LosTsuas lid nawb. Cov neeg nod, cov khavkhavtheej, ces yog nej cov laus thiab cov tub ntxhais loj hlob LosTsuas nkaus nkaus xwb. Kuv phaj thiab cov hauv ces peb ruam ruam tsis paub nrog nej txeeb tej hawj lwm nod ib txog luaj plaub hau kiag lid. Peb ces tsuas paub ua nej tus mej zeej xwb. Nej coj peb ncaj ces peb ua qhov ncaj. Nej coj peb nkhaus ces peb ua qhov nkhaus.

Ob qho nod, kuv hais tseeb tseeb thiab meej meej rau koj - nej cov laus, cov niam cov txiv, tsis yog lam hais lam cav lam dag leej twg.

Yog nej cov laus, cov coj, cov qub nom qub tswv zoo lid nod xwb, hais meej meej yeej hais tsis haum peb cov hluas lid koj tau hais los lawm vim peb yog Americanized 99.99% hos nej cov laus tseem yog 50% Lao-mentality and only 50% US-mentality at best xwb ces thiaj tsis work whatsoever.

Kuv tsis yog thuam, cem, los liam nej cov laus. Zam txim yog to taud yuav kev. Kuv tsuas hais raws lid kuv pom, paub, thiab ntseeg ntawm cov hluas lub hlwb kev xav thiab nkag siab rau nej cov laus xwb.

Kuv forgot lawm: Peb cov hluas, feem coob, tsis ntshawj ua Hmoob los sis ib tug Thawj Coj twg os nawb. Qhov nod tsis muaj nuj nqi luaj txoj plaub hauv rau peb cov hluas os nawb. Qhov peb ntshawj tshaj plaws ces kom nej txhob muab txoj kev qub nod los ua plaub ua ntug tsis txawj tag lid niaj hnub nod xwb, ces peb haiv Hmoob thiaj yuav haum xeeb vam meej rau peb suab. Ho yog zoo lid niaj hnub nod xwb, koj khav koj yog tus thawj, kuv khav kuv yog tus thawj, koj khav koj lub koom haum, kuv khav kuv lub koom haum, ces peb cov hluas kawg SIT BACK and WATCH nej FIGHT xwb laud.

[singmong]

Koj twb yog tus uas xav khaws Hmoob li keebkwm, kuv thiaj xactias koj paub qabhau lawm tiamsis koj nej tseem mosliab heev rau Hmoob kev cojnoj coj-ua. Qhiatseeb rau nej cov hluas nawb, thaum-ub covlaus mas qiadub heev lihos, yog nej tsis themnyiaj nej tsislam tau kawm Hmoob laus tej tswvyim cojmus siv. Nej simxav seb, tejlaus tuag tseem yuavtau mus txhoscaug peb luag mamli tuaj mtias nej, nimno kuv tsisxav lintawd es thiaj qhia kom tej tej homphiaj tiav no tiamsis nej ntshe dhau lawd es covlaus thiab cov hluas thiaj tsis sibhaumxeeb li kuv hais thiab koj hais losmas.

Cia kuv muab ibqho yamntxwv rau neb saib lino, yawg Vampov tustub Plau mus kawm tau Dr. khohniav, muaj ibhnub Vampov ua ibrooj mov noj, nws haistias metub, koj los nojmov thaum 12:00 PM, Plau los koom roojmov thaum 12:00 PM tiamsis roojmov tau noj rauthaum 2:00 PM. Tabsis Dr. Plau twb mus ntaus Golf thaum 1:00 nrog nws cov phoojywg lawm. Nej paub Vampov haislicas rau Dr. Plau? Nws haistias uacas yuavnkim kuv lubzog ualuajli. Dr. Plau hais rau nws txiv haistias, Txiv hnubtwg koj yuavtuaj saib nyab wb noces huxovtooj uantej tso.

Yoglawm, peb nyias yeejmuaj nyias tiam kev uaneej yeej yuav kho tsistau, tiamsis kuv mloog hauv nej cov siabntsws mas twbyog xakhaws thiab txuag tejlaus tej kauvtes kauvtaw cia ua puavpheej puasyog nab?

[yuknowthat]

tus tes ntawv kos ntxim li kuv twb yuav paub nas...muaj ib tug neeg kuv paub thiaj sau li kos xwb

[singmong]

Tavno es tseem xav li koj xwb, uacas kuv ho paub koj zoo ualuaj mas kwvntxawg. Kuv twbnyob tom koj togtsev xwbnev!

[chidorix0x]

singmong,

Kuv teb koj lid nod:

Ib, qhov kuv xav khaws Hmoob keeb kwm etc., tsuas yog los ua ib txoj kev, los sis dab neeg (books hopefully) cia rau cov tub ntxhais yug loj hlob teb chaws nod mus rau lwm lub teb chaws, xws lid Canada, Australia, Germany etc. thaum peb thiab cov laus tsom tiaj teb tseg lawm xwb. Tsis tas lid xwb, nws yog peb Hmoob twg tiag tiag, tsis yog tus Hmab tus Sua sau los sis ua tseg rau peb cov me tub me nyuam. Ib txhia, cov Hmab Sua ua tseg, twb tsis meej pem xws lid Savina - hais tias Hmoob los Middle East los, es peb thiaj sib cav tsis sib haum etc..

Ob, qhov peb thov dag thov zog, koj twb yog ib twg xib laug neeg, kuv tsis nkag siab ua cas koj lam hais tej lus nod. Qhov thov zej zog, tsis yog thiab muab "problem" rau kuv thiab cov hlaus. Peb paub thiab "understand" hais tias yog Hmong culture xwb, peb tsis ntaus nqi dab tsid.

Peb, hais txog Dr. Plau - qhov ntawd yog nws qhov "problem", tsis txhais tau hais tias yog tag nrho peb cov tub ntxhais yug loj hlob teb chaws nod qhov "problem". Yog hais qhov nod, nej cov laus "guilty" tib yam. Tus tshaj los tseem muaj.

Koj xav hais tias kuv tseem yog "mosabliab" xwb, tsis ua lid cas. Tej koj hais, kuv tsis paub ntau ntau los kuv yeej paub me me thiab. Tej qho, tej zaum kuv tseem paub ntau tshaj qhov koj xav. Qhov twg los tsis "matter" rau kuv, vim peb tsuas tuaj sib tham sib qhia xwb, tsis yog yuav tuaj ua ib txoj cai luaj twg etc..

[singmong]

Muaj ib lolus haislino haistias, "If you know the truth, that truth will safe you free" Hmoob haistias, Hmoob li ntawv cimmeejtsab tau poob rau zajzeg zajqho lawm. Yogli thiaj muab tus qaib los tua saib obtxhais kotaw seb yovmus qaumteb zoo, los qabteb zoo, lossis hnubtuaj zoo, los hnubpoob zoo, Hmoob yog pab tibneeg uas hwm lubntuj thiab coj txoj kevcai (the ten Commandments) tsistas lino Hmoob tradition and culture are sililar to the old Testments. Qhovno thiaj qhiatau haistias Hmoob zaj "qhuabke" uas haistxog Ntxwjnyoos thiab Yawmsaub thiaj qhiatau rau lub nriajteb tej tubtxawj sojntsuam thiab qhiatau haistias "Hmoob yog leejtwg thiab los qhovtwg los?"

Kuv nug koj haistias, txoj kevcai Hmoob zij pojniam yog Hmoob li, tabsis thaum txhaum tseemfwv txojcai lawm yuavraug kaw li 10 xyoo tiamsis luag haistias, peb tsuas kaw tus tub hluas ntawd 24 teev xwb. vim peb paub tias nej yog pabneeg animism, nej yeej coj txojcai no loslawm ntau txhiab xyoo. Qhovno twbyog luag paub tias Hmoob yog pabneeg twg lawm, tiamsis luag tsis specify thiab identify tias Hmoob yog leejtwg no xwb os metub. Yog nej cov hluas los taug tau Hmoob tusntxhiab ces neej Hmoob nyob ntawm Hmoob tes, ces tus Hmoob yov tsis ploj ntxiv lawm os.

[chidorix0x]

singmong,

It is clear this discussion is going no where with all the random segue. You believe whatever you want and I will simply believe whatevere I want, 

Your argument and examples are quite easy to refute, reprise, and debunk - not just by me, but anyone really - Hmong or not, thus it is pointless and meaningless.

In conclusion: Yog sawv daws, tsis hais tus laus los tus hluas, tus tub los tus ntxhais, tus ruam los tus ntses, tus coj los tus meej zeej, yog ntseeg thiab xav lid nod xwb ces kawg zoo lid niaj hnub nod xwb os nawb. Hmoob ces yeej zoo lid niaj hnub nod xwb os -- tsis pauv tsis ntxid lawm.

[singmong]

Koj hais yog lawm, Kuv tuskheej yeej tsistau xavtias yov yuam kom koj ntseeg li kuv ntseeg. Tejno tsuayog muab sau tso nroghuab nrog cuamus xwb, ibyamli peb hais zaj qhuabke xwb, Sivyis cuam nws cov twjneeb los rau nriajteb, leejtwg txojhmoov sawm nws khaws tau cojmus siv thiaj kho tau tibneeg zoo, tiamsis tus uas tsis muaj txojhmoov ces khawtau coj mus ua los tsuaspom xyab liab plujpliv xwb.

Cia saib mus, tomntej Hmoob cov DNA yuavtawm los, leejtwg thiaj yog tus tseem Hmoob. Thiab leejtwg tej ntaubntawv yuav raug qhia rau txhualub university hauv nriajteb no.

[zina]

Interesting theory but our DNA does not support it. The O DNA that we have is traced to have entered Asia through Burma not through the North.  This the problem with oral history, people add things to it making it unreliable.  It could only be a start.  We do have N1c-M46(Tat) which is traced to Lake Baikal area in Siberia but the strand starts from China not Europe or Middle East.

The Christian influence have even distorted our oral tradions.  My understanding is that only Christian influenced area has the tale going to the Middle East.  Our cousins in Guizhou and Hunan goes only to Shangdong when we became a people.  Our DNA says we took the middle route along the Yangtze to Shandong.