What is the Original language? White or Green?

[Great Sage]

First point, although there are Hmong scholars nowadays, they are just barely putting together all of the pieces of the puzzle. As a matter of fact, from my research and review of their works, they are just as confused, uncertain, and lost as we, average joes, are etc. The fact is, there is no substantial funding period to further their research or take it to the next level. Lastly, any research being done today, mainly by Hmong scholars, are all rooted and found in previous research and researchers exclusively; thus only regurjutating their perspectives, ideas, assumptions, and/or bias. I have yet to see any original Hmong research or challenges to the norm. (Hmong are wussies for the most part in my opinion.)

That's why I said it would take 10-20 years before any serious work can be completed. Right now you have a bunch of independent hobbyists doing research and coming up with their own theories. To really have clout, we need a scientific team that can get funding and come to some conclusions; or at least a starting point from which to build a proper thesis.

Secondly, true, White and Green have made antagonistic bias claims. However, I have never heard a White made a claim or posture that the White dialect, culture, and custom etc. is the authentic original Hmong. Only the Green. Plus, I have never heard my grandparents, parents, or White elders say anything along this line either. When I heard the Green making this conjecture, I asked the White elders etc., and they more or less agreed with the Green's postulation - citing that that is why there are more Green globally and from our homeland - China. (I did not buy it of course, because when pressed for explanations, facts, and folklore to verify this conjecture, the White elders, had nothing. They simply said, "I don't know.")

Well, like I said... If you're still in this mix of "he said, she said" BS then you're not really being objective. I get the feeling you resent the position green Hmong have taken, because it seems to put them ahead of white Hmong. I could care less because it doesn't matter who came first. I'm green Hmong, but if I found out white Hmong were the first Hmong; no big deal. We're all Hmong after all. Our research should be to unite our people not cause more division.

[chidorix0x]

That's why I said it would take 10-20 years before any serious work can be completed. Right now you have a bunch of independent hobbyists doing research and coming up with their own theories. To really have clout, we need a scientific team that can get funding and come to some conclusions; or at least a starting point from which to build a proper thesis.


Well, like I said... If you're still in this mix of "he said, she said" BS then you're not really being objective. I get the feeling you resent the position green Hmong have taken, because it seems to put them ahead of white Hmong. I could care less because it doesn't matter who came first. I'm green Hmong, but if I found out white Hmong were the first Hmong; no big deal. We're all Hmong after all. Our research should be to unite our people not cause more division.

Why 10-20 years from now? Why not now? I am practically against future scholarships though 10 years is not too far off. But 20 years and beyond, there will be even fewer creditable sources and resources to draw from to create and document more authentic hypothesis and research, specifically the experienced and knowledgeable elders. Just look at what the past decades etc. has already done or left us with. Absolutely nothing except perplexed deviation if not uncertainty.

Trust me, I could careless for the "he said, she said" BS. And my only resentment of the Green Hmong's rhetoric and posturing is the division and secularism it has caused throughout the Hmong community, at almost every level. (I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself. The one thing that infuriated me the most was the Congressional hearing decades ago where Green Hmong proponents FAWKED it all up for the Hmong/Mong community as a whole. What imbeciles! I only say Green Hmong because they were the disgruntle party fighting Congress against the White Hmong in this hearing - not another race, non-Hmong party, non-Hmong organization, non-Hmong political group, or anti-Hmong dissidents. Just Green Hmong. Pathetic indeed.) This incident alone, drives me to believe (hypothesize), that in general Green Hmong innately do not have the conscience to do, act, and abide by what is good for all Hmong/Mong, but only what is or can be Green Mong. Yeah, that is my bias (opinion), but the facts (history) speaks for themselves. I only mentioned one of nearly a dozen examples.

[Great Sage]

Why 10-20 years from now? Why not now? I am practically against future scholarships though 10 years is not too far off. But 20 years and beyond, there will be even fewer creditable sources and resources to draw from to create and document more authentic hypothesis and research, specifically the experienced and knowledgeable elders. Just look at what the past decades etc. has already done or left us with. Absolutely nothing except perplexed deviation if not uncertainty.

The reason is self-evident by your own findings: we are not qualified nor do we have the resources at present.

Perhaps in 10-20 years there will be more qualified Hmong people who are more concerned with the objective truth about our origins rather than manipulating information to serve their own agenda.

Trust me, I could careless for the "he said, she said" BS. And my only resentment of the Green Hmong's rhetoric and posturing is the division and secularism it has caused throughout the Hmong community, at almost every level. (I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself. The one thing that infuriated me the most was the Congressional hearing decades ago where Green Hmong proponents FAWKED it all up for the Hmong/Mong community as a whole. What imbeciles! I only say Green Hmong because they were the disgruntle party fighting Congress against the White Hmong in this hearing - not another race, non-Hmong party, non-Hmong organization, non-Hmong political group, or anti-Hmong dissidents. Just Green Hmong. Pathetic indeed.) This incident alone, drives me to believe (hypothesize), that in general Green Hmong innately do not have the conscience to do, act, and abide by what is good for all Hmong/Mong, but only what is or can be Green Mong. Yeah, that is my bias (opinion), but the facts (history) speaks for themselves. I only mentioned one of nearly a dozen examples.

Actually, your previous posts and this one proves otherwise. You seem to harbor alot of resentment towards the green Hmong and it is the underlying issue with your argument. In fact, it's as though you feel white Hmong, throughout history, were somehow "better" but are now overshadowed by their green counterparts. And now the white Hmong should be validated somehow through learning of our history.

Personally, I find this attitude to be non-objective and disturbing. Twice I've stated that I was interested in an unbiased approach toward unity and both times you countered with a disdain for green Hmong. Your intentions are too transparent.

[chidorix0x]

The reason is self-evident by your own findings: we are not qualified nor do we have the resources at present.

Perhaps in 10-20 years there will be more qualified Hmong people who are more concerned with the objective truth about our origins rather than manipulating information to serve their own agenda.


Actually, your previous posts and this one proves otherwise. You seem to harbor alot of resentment towards the green Hmong and it is the underlying issue with your argument. In fact, it's as though you feel white Hmong, throughout history, were somehow "better" but are now overshadowed by their green counterparts. And now the white Hmong should be validated somehow through learning of our history.

Personally, I find this attitude to be non-objective and disturbing. Twice I've stated that I was interested in an unbiased approach toward unity and both times you countered with a disdain for green Hmong. Your intentions are too transparent.

That's your opinion (bias) regarding whatever contributions I have post/commented on. As I have already said, "I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself.", regarding the Green Hmong's posturing. I was merely trying to bring some points into perspective yet must have hit a nerve or two. No biggie, and no offense taken.

As for harboring any sort of resentment, it would seem to me anyway, that it is the Green Hmong who are harboring resentments being overshadowed by the White Hmong today and historically, and nowadays given all the freedom and opportunities (academics), even if fool-hearty, are trying to validate themself - their group some how. (I can even give some foresight here, but then, you will accuse me of being Hmong White-centric again,  )

Sadly and perhaps, you are trying to make this into a Green VS White debate, given my comments, posts, findings, opinions (bias), and sensitivity on all matters Hmong/Mong, but I am not going to fall for those base antics. And I assure you, most if not all my opinions (bias), comments, and findings are more than not rooted and founded in academic scholarships. That is not to say, I will express my thoughts, opinions, and findings supported by academic scholarships and let whoever, Green or White, decide for themselves what they want to believe - their opinions or bias. Like you said, "I am sick and tired of the 'he said, she said BS'." which is what you are trying to contend in your comment (opinion and bias) of me. Fair enough. I only ask that whatever counterpoints you may have or want to inject has equally creditable academic scholarships, versus "he said, she said BS", which is why "joot" and the like does not want to have this discussion with us/here. (His or her opinions (bias) is mainly rooted in "he said, she said BS", which is why they can never produce any scholarships to support or back their opinions (bias) of Green Hmong supremacy when asked etc..)

And by no admission do I claim to be an expert, researcher, historian, or scholar on anything Hmong/Mong/Miao=Hmong-Chinese, but for the most part I have done my due diligence and do know a thing or two of said groups - its history, culture, custom, language, etc.. More importantly, I am always researching and looking to better my knowledge and understanding of all facts - found or unfounded, scholarly or not.

[YeejKoob13]

Chidorix0x,

Please don't use Mong again in your spelling. Whether it's Hmong Dawb or Ntsuab we are all Hmong and the name should ONLY be spelled Hmong,,, not Mong (or Mhong or HMong or whatever variation). By accepting(?) and writing Mong you are giving credence to some of the Ntsuab (not all, but just a minority of them) who advocate for the name distinction. If you want unity, then don't accept this other spelling as it will invariably complicate and convolute the matter further... Now it's not the Chinese dividing Hmong anymore but Hmong are doing the job themselves.

[chidorix0x]

Chidorix0x,

Please don't use Mong again in your spelling. Whether it's Hmong Dawb or Ntsuab we are all Hmong and the name should ONLY be spelled Hmong,,, not Mong (or Mhong or HMong or whatever variation). By accepting(?) and writing Mong you are giving credence to some of the Ntsuab (not all, but just a minority of them) who advocate for the name distinction. If you want unity, then don't accept this other spelling as it will invariably complicate and convolute the matter further... Now it's not the Chinese dividing Hmong anymore but Hmong are doing the job themselves.

You do reallize you just opened a WHOLE CAN of WORMS with that opinion (bias) remark right? -  (I am not even gonna go there. Just saying ...    Hint: Congressional hearing ( ) ...  )

[Great Sage]

That's your opinion (bias) regarding whatever contributions I have post/commented on. As I have already said, "I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself.", regarding the Green Hmong's posturing. I was merely trying to bring some points into perspective yet must have hit a nerve or two. No biggie, and no offense taken.

I don’t care about the green Hmong’s posturing. What I do know is that you’re as bias as those you condemn. You preach about not accepting unbiased opinions, yet you came in here with a preconceived idea already (a bias): that white Hmong language was first. And that somehow this made them more legitimate.
 

"The White Hmong - language and culture - if not the original, is probably the most closest to our ancient ancestors because they are the ones who first migrated out of China, keeping its authenticity and was/is therefore the least persecuted, oppressed, and sinicized by the Chinese."

And “no” you didn’t hit a nerve; I’m not interested in your Hmong politics. I came in here to talk history and offer my opinion on the subject. Perhaps this thread hit a nerve within you, because you are showing a lot of animosity towards your own people.

Sadly and perhaps, you are trying to make this into a Green VS White debate, given my comments…

No, you did that all by yourself. Take a look:

As for harboring any sort of resentment, it would seem to me anyway, that it is the Green Hmong who are harboring resentments being overshadowed by the White Hmong today and historically, and nowadays given all the freedom and opportunities (academics), even if fool-hearty, are trying to validate themself - their group some how. (I can even give some foresight here, but then, you will accuse me of being Hmong White-centric again,  )

the Green Hmong - several proponents - have already claimed that the Green Hmong; their language and culture/customs is in fact the original, authentic, and most representative of our ancient ancestors. Their argument for the most part is the "exact opposite" of your (our) argument.

And any posturing of Green Hmong/Mong being the original or authentic Hmong/Mong is nothing but "hearsay" and is unfounded in any Hmong/Mong folklore, tales, legends (dab neeg), and most importantly scholarship to date; thus within this thread we are providing insight and sound academia/scholarship to disprove, rectify, explain and/or question this "hearsay".

… the initial conjecture that the Green dialect, culture, custom, and people were in fact the original Hmong of our ancestors were in fact made by them or their elders. There is even a U-tube video specific to this posture. Look for it if you are curios, if it is still available, that is.

[chidorix0x]

Great Sage, ( -  )

Gotta love those elementary school antics; ad hominem and red herrings - 

So instead of providing some basis of scholarships or questions/concerns, as I have done, to be analyzed (resolved if possible), now all your attention is geared towards "ad hominem and red herrings" -  (Brilliant! Just brilliant! LMAO!)

[EliteZero01]

I think this thread is being blown out of proportion of its intention.  Now, we are just tossing stones at each other without saying any meaningful stuff, so let me just chime in my observation, hopefully I'm not opening another can of worm (or do I?)

Now, just from observation, not a study of some sort at all - I know that White Hmong tend to alter the sounding of words, especially the elderly ones.  For example:  In Laos, a word is enunce as "un," or "aa" in Hmong, but the White Hmong change it to "a," because they can't enunce it the way it is supposed to.  One such particular word is:  Laotion - "As Caas" - meaning Xibfwb or "reverend/master/teacher)" along those names.  The White Hmong change it to enunce:  "As Cas."  And the correct enunciation in Lao's language should remain "As Caas." 

Now, when we get to the US, one of the words I hear the elder keep enuncing it different that what is suppose to is, "Van."  A van, a vehicle.  The White Hmong change it to enunce "via."  Now, the younger generation doesn't have this problem, it's only the elderly ones.  So, I supposed back in the past, along the time frame somewhere, the White Hmong somehow changed many words to enunce differently than their origination.  So, who's to say who's original and who's not?  Just from observation alone, there are so many words altered to sound different according to their tongue, so...here, a new can of worm?   

[Great Sage]

Great Sage, ( -  )

Gotta love those elementary school antics; ad hominem and red herrings - 

So instead of providing some basis of scholarships or questions/concerns, as I have done, to be analyzed (resolved if possible), now all your attention is geared towards "ad hominem and red herrings" -  (Brilliant! Just brilliant! LMAO!)

Speak for yourself... You wrote those things.

Tell me something, are you really this full of yourself? I mean you consider everyone's opinion bias, yet you're the one holding a grudge. Do you understand what it means to be bias? It means you have a preconcieved position; one that shows favoritism. It quite clear where your loyalty lies; with the white Hmong. Yet, now you claim to hold an objective view of Hmong history? That's hard to believe, man.
 

[todspengo]

The Mongolian origin theory again. This theory is baseless and is a product of Western ignorance. Just because Hmong is pronounce like Mong in Mongolia in English. If two people are related, they should share a close genetic marker. Mongolian ydna markers are C-M217. The Hmong ydna marker is O3a3b. The closest ydna marker to Hmong people are Han/Tang people (suav). They are 03a5. Ydna are passed from father to children. For the best studies, you'd of course have to look at mtdna also. That's pass from the mother to children. Anyway, read up on it if you want to know more.

With that said, let's move on to the topic at hand. First and foremost, I wouldn't take any studies that are over 10 years too seriously, and I would take any information about Hmong language from someone who does not speak Hmong with a grain of salt. You don't have to have a doctorate of philosophy (PhD) in anything to know your language. The PhD folks gets their expert information from you.

So most people in here thinks that the De dialect is older than the Leng dialect. In my humble opinion, that's not the case, nor is it the other way around. They they are both the same age with a slight variation. There are many words in De and Leng that are used everyday that are the same as Mandarin ie..
English   Hmong       Sinitic
arm        npab           ban
help       pab             bang
friend     phooj ywg  phung you
car         tsheb          zhe (chay)
These are just some examples but all Hmong dialect share a lot of vocabulary with Sinitic languages. In fact, the Sinitic language Wu, spoken in and around Shanghai is believed to derive from Hmong. ( http://cscanada.net/index.php/ccc/article/view/j.ccc.1923670020050101.029 )

Hmong people, although they are not nomadic according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nomadic ) does migrate, and when they do, as a minority language, they do pick up new words and drop old ones ie.. from laotion:
cars: tsheb to lub fai
trash: khoom sw to khib nyiab
go: mus to pais
wallet: Hnab to kab paus
rabbit: luav to kaj taij
These are just a few.

or change idiosyncratic to match that of the the host language ie..
close eyes: hmong qe muag to english kaw qhov muag
open eyes: hmong rua muag to english qheb qhov muag
myself: hmong kuv to english kuv tus kheej

The Leng and De dialect are both full of these examples. This is why I believed that neither the Leng or the De dialects are original. If you have the time, sit down with someone who speaks either Lao or any Sinitic languages and compare. In the mean time, check out this link for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPs2Nq3oG7g

[CheejSiav]

Beside doing research on the language and dialect. Let's talk about the about the trend and rituals that each ethnic carries in China. Does anybody know what Cantonese, Biao-Jiao Mien, Wameng-Nasu, Sangkong, Samatao, and other dialect in China carry as rituals and beliefs?
On these theories that we've covered rather the White Hmong dialect is the primary language or the Green Hmong dialect is the primary language isn't really essential to the community but what I want to discuss on is the ritual. From what I've heard from elderly and people who have been doing a lot of studies on the ritual and origin of it at one time we only had one trend which then branches out into different trends that have manipulated one another but because Hmong didn't have any record of how these rituals should be implement.
Hmoob dab qhuas muaj li no los ntawm peb cov Hmoob Thoj:
Hmoob Thoj/ Hmoob Pos: Dab qhuas Hmoob Ncaws Hau Nyuj: During the day of the funeral the Tshuab Qeej would follow the brethren who carry the dead around lub cub tawg then when they set off to the looj mem the tshuab qeej would kick the cows head before setting off. We're the Hmong Thoj 9 Txig
now there are different type of Hmong Thao out there too like:
The Hmong Tshuab Qaib
Hmong Tshwm Tshav
and etc.
Each clan having the same principle and ordinance at the same time within each clan they also are divided like the Thao clan that I've mention for our Clan above.
So to clarify things here's an analogy:
If I were to go to a Kwv tij Hmong Thao house who is a Hmong Tshuab Qaib I can't die in his house because we're different ritual from a different origin. But if I go to a Kwvtij Hmong Thao who I've never met before in my whole life and he's a Hmoob Thoj Ncaws Hau Nyuj I can die in his house and they can do my burial for me.
So I know a long the way there were some break up between clans and brotherhood to have cause this great shift of ritual and languages. I don't know what the Green Hmong ritual system is like but I'm assuming it's the same concept.
Anybody in here who's a ritual expert, SHINE SOME LIGHT!!

[chidorix0x]

 todspengo,

Regarding this comment: The Mongolian origin theory again. This theory is baseless and is a product of Western ignorance. Just because Hmong is pronounce like Mong in Mongolia in English.

Foremost, I completely agree, Hmong did not originate from Mongolia nor am closely tied/related to Mongols whatsoever. Maybe there were a few encounters and acquaintances in Chinese antiquity when Genghis Khan was trying to conquer China - the homeland of the Hmong/Miao, but beyond that, neither people had a clue about the other. There are plenty of scholarships that more than validates this.

Hmong, in fact is not pronounced "Mong" or anything near that, even in the Green dialect. (I have even heard it pronounced "Mung" -  ) Sadly, it is spelled "Mong" in English per the Green dialect derived from the Moob Leeg/Ntsuab word "Moob", lending to the pronunciation flaw and Mongolia origination faux-pas. It is just "dumb" how people or Hmong/Mong, ignorantly fabricate crap and fail to even pronounce Hmong/Mong accurately,  esp. US-borned Hmong/Mong folks -  .

[chidorix0x]

CheejSiav,

About Hmong rituals, taboos, and clan-centric ceremonies, you are asking for the impossible. It is all I am saying. The topic alone is pointless and beyond the scope of any ritual expert or individual, no matter who he/she is and what their level of expertise may be - ancient or modern.

Much like this "original language" discussion, there is absolutely no irrefutable fact or data to try to even make an educated much less sound argument one way or another. As a matter of fact, this Hmong ritual subject is even less creditable one way or another versus the "original language" discussion.

Per my experiences, observation, and community research, as there is no scholarships whatsoever regarding this subject matter, the Hmong just did whatever they wanted, remembered, knew, and felt what is best for them, their clan or family, and that just became the norm including all the variants, changes, additions, minus, and inclusion or exclusion of Western influences and adaptations. For examp: Hmong now have singing the gospels and prayers in a Hmong-Christian funeral that includes traditional Hmong-centric practices like killing cows=ntaus nyuj hauv qhua, donations=nyiaj tshav ntuj, and giving thanks=ua tsaug. WTF?

That is why Hmong has a too well-known verbage that says, "Ib rab teb. Ib yam txuj." It means, "One town, city, state, village, country, clan, master, student, practitioner, apprentice, one entirely unique method, practice, way, ritual, and/or managed custom." literally. There lies the answer to your question, directly from the horse's mouth - Hmong.

This is why I have been arguing for ages that Hmong need to start standardizing it's language, culture, and customs. Of course, this is asking for the "impossible" I know. Hmong have too many "experts", "elites", and "educated wanna-bes" nowadays to accept or rally a consensus towards this cause imho -  .

[CheejSiav]

The Mongolian origin theory again. This theory is baseless and is a product of Western ignorance. Just because Hmong is pronounce like Mong in Mongolia in English. If two people are related, they should share a close genetic marker. Mongolian ydna markers are C-M217. The Hmong ydna marker is O3a3b. The closes ydna marker to Hmong people are Han/Tang people (suav). They are 03a3c. Ydna are passed from father to children. For the best studies, you'd of course have to look at mtdna also. That's pass from the mother to children. Anyway, read up on it if you want to know more.

With that said, let's move on to the topic at hand. First and foremost, I wouldn't take any studies that are over 10 years too seriously, and I would take any information about Hmong language from someone who does not speak Hmong with a grain of salt. You don't have to have a doctorate of philosophy (PhD) in anything to know your language. The PhD folks gets their expert information from you.

So most people in here thinks that the De dialect is older than the Leng dialect. In my humble opinion, that's not the case, nor is it the other way around. They they are both the same age with a slight variation. There are many words in De and Leng that are used everyday that are the same as Mandarin ie..
English   Hmong       Sinitic
arm        npab           ban
help       pab             bang
friend     phooj ywg  phung you
car         tsheb          zhe (chay)
These are just some examples but all Hmong dialect share a lot of vocabulary with Sinitic languages. In fact, the Sinitic language Wu, spoken in and around Shanghai is believed to derive from Hmong. ( http://cscanada.net/index.php/ccc/article/view/j.ccc.1923670020050101.029 )

Hmong people, although they are not nomadic according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nomadic ) does migrate, and when they do, as a minority language, they do pick up new words and drop old ones ie.. from laotion:
cars: tsheb to lub fai
trash: khoom sw to khib nyiab
go: mus to pais
wallet: Hnab to kab paus
rabbit: luav to kaj taij
These are just a few.

or change idiosyncratic to match that of the the host language ie..
close eyes: hmong qe muag to english kaw qhov muag
open eyes: hmong rua muag to english qheb qhov muag
myself: hmong kuv to english kuv tus kheej

The Leng and De dialect are both full of these examples. This is why I believed that neither the Leng or the De dialects are original. If you have the time, sit down with someone who speaks either Lao or any Sinitic languages and compare. In the mean time, check out this link for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPs2Nq3oG7g

Thank you topspengo for your comments,

I've done some studies in these languages before and do agree that Hmong along the way took some word from different Ethnic into their languages because 1) Hmong don't or either have the word already but because they situated in a place they were compel to learn the language in that country for business uses and communication so I don't blame the Hmong for picking up these new words and formalizing it into their system because lets face it Hmong never had a country ever since the war that was lost in China with Huang Di which is in the B.C Hmong was never prosperous then.
But I disagree on the fact that both the Green and the White Hmong dialect co-existed in China when ever there's one closest to the origin there's always one route that any language would branch from. For example America the origin of the language in America was British or English but because of the different dialect Scottish, German, and etc. were all compile together to make the modern day English so if we look at that did it English started out slang having howdy, ya'll, and etc. when America was establish? no, so because of the different individuals who thought of these slang words that's why it was establish. Similar concept in any language. Let's say if the younger generation now keeps on thinking of new slang easy word to use then 5 year or even 2 years from now everybody will be speaking slang in Hmong. Just like the word "Yawg ntawd now being used from young generation as Aib Ntawd"
So which language is consider the "Slang" language? White or Hmong?