Is the Hmong culture dying?

[HUNG TU LO]

This story is on the front page of the current issue of "Hmong Today".

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2013/04/02/next-wave-hmong-shamans-sandyci-mouas-story

[theking]

What Sandy and Koua said about "change" and "evolve" is right on the money. Since they are both young and born in the States, I can also see that they will be "judge" by others especially Sandy. My aunt was one of the few women Shamans in Laos and Thailand, and she really had to prove her worth. From what I remembered, she is just as good as the men based on what she received in return from the people she provided Shamanism service to.

[Great Sage]

And look who's dominating us? We were the FIRST settlers that has made farming technology, which has spread during the time of Chi-You. Hmong people can brag about this since we WERE the only ones who has the powerful economy back then because of farming technology; however, we fell apart because of traitors. But my point is, the culture is dead and lost FOREVER since most of the stuff that we did were destroyed by the Chinese. So how accurate is our culture? It's lost. The reason why I say, "TRUE CULTURE," what I meant was the time of Chi-You. It's lost and we have lost on the cultural war since the Hmong minds are HIGHLY backward. I agree what the French people say to us because WE ARE BACKWARD!

Your logic makes no sense. In your first post, you said Hmong culture is dying due to the dominant culture of the US. Now, you're saying Hmong culture was destroyed long ago by China? So what's your point? Is it dying or is it dead already? Make up your mind.

I think you fail to grasp what everyone is saying: culture is constantly changing. What you perceive as TRUE Hmong culture 10 years ago, was probably not considered true Hmong culture 100 years ago. Furthermore, the fact that Western ideas are spreading doesn't negate Hmong culture; it only changes aspects of it. If we speak strictly of cultures, there is something to be gained from each.

Like I said, history doesn't lie. The Hmong have been around since the beginning of civilization and we will be around in some way, shape or form.

[Believe_N_Me]

Is Hmong culture dying?

No.... Hmong culture isn't "dying" just adapting. Hmong is among the oldest living cultures and have survived by adapting to its surrounding, while keeping its identity intact. According to Chinese historians, Hmong have been around since 2000 B.C. (1). It's debatable whether Hmong truly had a country at one time, but the FACT is that the Hmong have persevered through thousands of years of adaptation. Therefore, the Americanizatio n of Hmong isn't anything new. It's just another chapter in Hmong history.

It's a false assumption to believe that living in America somehow eliminates one's cultural identity. Case in point: There have been Spanish-speaking, Chinese, Italian, German, Russian, Jewish, etc... type communities in America for ages. In fact, America is moving towards a multicultural future. By 2050, whites will be the minorities (2). This further validates that Hmong-American communities will continue to thrive; just as other ethnic communities will.

Being an American today is MUCH MORE different than it was decades ago. The true concept of America's "melting pot" was NOT a diverse, multicultural society, but the assimilation of ALL ethnic cultures into the majority Anglo-based ethnicity that defined America's identity (3). However, this idea didn't go as planned. Instead, the present-day American is a person who embraces his own ethnic identity, while believing in the concept of America. As such, there is no such thing as a "generic" American who acts and behaves accordingly.

Finally, I also believe that while Hmong have moved away from some of its customs, there will be a revival in the future. The thing is that as children of strict Hmong codes of conduct, we are enjoying this new cultural liberty. But at some point down the road, we will begin to appreciate our original roots and what they are meant to teach. Americanism is new and exciting, but when it becomes a commodity, our people will beginning searching for their uniqueness again. This is true of all ethnicities in America.


Sources:
1. http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Ha-La/Hmong-Americans.html
2. http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/12/us-usa-population-immigration-idUSN1110177520080212
3. http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0601/article_483.shtml

Yep.

[YeejKoob13]

If we Hmong are not careful and steadfast we will get wiped out.

I see a lot of Hmong cultural preservation and resurgence going on, but at the same time there are many examples of us getting assimilated into mainstream society. Over a long duration can we really survive as a ppl without land/autonomy?

I'm a pretty ardent Hmong pride kind of guy; my kids have Hmong names, they practice Hmong culture, are taught to be proud of their heritage and who they are, etc, but I must also admit that they cannot speak Hmong as well as they should. They spoke Hmong relatively well before they started school but as soon as they went to kindergarten they mostly only speak English now. It's from all the English exposure they get from school and TV. I'm even worried for my kids if they can carry on our way of life into the future. And like I said, I'm an ardent Hmong pride kind of guy.

I have other cousins and friends who are less "Hmong pride" than me and they give their kids white/other names, don't really speak or teach their kids Hmong language, culture, etc, so yes, these are worrisome signs. They have little or no sense of cultural preservation and destiny at all. The only saving grace is that they aren't treacherous Christians who will come back to attack their own ppl and culture.. So what's going to happen to their kids as they grow up and have kids of their own? If they and their kids are barely holding onto or practicing anything Hmong then their kids wouldn't be able to pass anything to their future kids, and so on and so on. One can only surmise that the "Hmong line" dies off with this branch.

The biggest killer to Hmong culture and our way of life is Christianity (both Hmong Christians and white Christians). I have a cousin who is a Christian and this dude attacks the Hmong way of life hardcore. He give his kids English/Christian names, teaches only the damn bible (don't know which fake version though) to them, etc. And his kids can't speak a word of Hmong, I kid you not. ...This dude just got cuckoo bird'd and will be carrying on the Christian traditions whereas he's destroyed any Hmong left in him and his line. These type of ppl, and there are many of them, are the most dangerous to Hmong survival 'cause they will keep on trying to convert and assimilate us into the white/Christian status quo.

[YeejKoob13]

Why would I treasure a pile of graveyard?

Nobody knows if there's an "afterlife". I'm not even positive if there is a Hmong realm where the ancestors wait for us. All we know is of this current world we live in. And thus we must make all the preparations to ensure that the Hmong way of life exists onwards and for a very, very long time for future Hmong generations to come.

Btw, you are one of those "white is right" ppl I'm talking about.

[Believe_N_Me]

Nobody knows if there's an "afterlife". I'm not even positive if there is a Hmong realm where the ancestors wait for us. All we know is of this current world we live in. And thus we must make all the preparations to ensure that the Hmong way of life exists onwards and for a very, very long time for future Hmong generations to come.

Btw, you are one of those "white is right" ppl I'm talking about.

I'm a Christian and yet I am very opposed to the way Hmong church leaders attack the culture and teach their congregations to abandon everything that is Hmong. Trust me when I say that I have voiced my perspective many, many times. One cannot be a Christian or even understand it unless it is through one's own culture.

But it's not just the leaders because they are only giving in to what many congregation members want. This is why I said that in the next few years Hmong churches will only exist as a social playground. Those who are well-versed in English will opt for American churches instead where their faith can actually grow and they will learn about their faith. I could write a whole topic about this but that is another thread. 

[night912]

As it is written in Phillippians, chapter 3 and it says that culture is meaningless since one can strike and smite as one blow and the culture is dead. Again, treasuring something here on Earth is meaningless.

Then why are you still here on earth?

[Wi_sweetguy]

Great Sage. 

 

The only white boy in here is AfterLife.  The only white washed is Afterlife.  The only person with a dying culture is Afterlife.  THe only person dominated by whites is AfterLife.  The only person who believes in GOD is AfterLife.  The only person who believes that the white man's GOD created hmong is Afterlife.  The only person that can read and cite verses from the bible is Afterlife.  The only person that can tell a american folk tale, instead of a hmong ghost tale is Afterlife.  The only person who puts down hmong people/ culture is Afterlife.  The only person who is tricked is Afterlife.  The only person who claimed being Jewish is Afterlife.  The only person with the common sense of Hmongs not having the ability to speak in Hmong and will disappear is Afterlife.

Hey brother Afterlife,
I think you're having a identity crisis.  It seems like you haven already fallen into the white man's trap.  You talk about Hmong culture as if it is dying, but what are you doing to perserve it.  Are you Hmong anymore? Do you know Hmong Culture? You seem to defend the white race as if they are your brother and sister. As if they are innocent, as if we the Hmongs need saving from the bible GOD.  I need you need to pm me so I can help you with Hmong culture and how to be a Real Hmong American living in DA USA.  Serious PM me. 

I don't care which religion you believe in, but I care about the principle and values taught by them.  Anything esle such as stories and all that balony is gibberish. 
Common sense Examples from Religions
For example 1.  Christianity-God told Moses to invade Canaan because it is the promise land.  That story has already breach the principle that GOD teaches. (Thy shall not hurt thy neighbor. thy shall nor steal or kill) Moses and his croonies killed the people of Canaan.
Example 2. Muslim(Allah).  They have good principles, but I don't their idea of stoning people and killing people for small crimes.
EXAMPLE 3.Islam(ALLAH???)-I don't have any problems with women wearing face mask, but they should have the right to not wear it and not be kill for their choice.
Example 4.  Buddism-they have good principles. they don't teach violence or converting others.
Example 5. Shamanism.  they have good principle.  they don't teach violence.

So what will you choose? Religion? Or the CORE knowledge of Principles, Morals, and Values from these religions.  Here is a saying in Hmong.  Throw away the useless and keep the the useful ones.

We as human beings must live by the good and useful principles to guide us into the right path.  Dont believe in the stories of the bible or hmong folk tales.  There is a reason why it is call folk tales.  Some may be true stories and damn well entertaining, but in the end they are just stories and nothing more.

[night912]

If we Hmong are not careful and steadfast we will get wiped out.

I see a lot of Hmong cultural preservation and resurgence going on, but at the same time there are many examples of us getting assimilated into mainstream society. Over a long duration can we really survive as a ppl without land/autonomy?

I'm a pretty ardent Hmong pride kind of guy; my kids have Hmong names, they practice Hmong culture, are taught to be proud of their heritage and who they are, etc, but I must also admit that they cannot speak Hmong as well as they should. They spoke Hmong relatively well before they started school but as soon as they went to kindergarten they mostly only speak English now. It's from all the English exposure they get from school and TV. I'm even worried for my kids if they can carry on our way of life into the future. And like I said, I'm an ardent Hmong pride kind of guy.

I have other cousins and friends who are less "Hmong pride" than me and they give their kids white/other names, don't really speak or teach their kids Hmong language, culture, etc, so yes, these are worrisome signs. They have little or no sense of cultural preservation and destiny at all. The only saving grace is that they aren't treacherous Christians who will come back to attack their own ppl and culture.. So what's going to happen to their kids as they grow up and have kids of their own? If they and their kids are barely holding onto or practicing anything Hmong then their kids wouldn't be able to pass anything to their future kids, and so on and so on. One can only surmise that the "Hmong line" dies off with this branch.

The biggest killer to Hmong culture and our way of life is Christianity (both Hmong Christians and white Christians). I have a cousin who is a Christian and this dude attacks the Hmong way of life hardcore. He give his kids English/Christian names, teaches only the damn bible (don't know which fake version though) to them, etc. And his kids can't speak a word of Hmong, I kid you not. ...This dude just got cuckoo bird'd and will be carrying on the Christian traditions whereas he's destroyed any Hmong left in him and his line. These type of ppl, and there are many of them, are the most dangerous to Hmong survival 'cause they will keep on trying to convert and assimilate us into the white/Christian status quo.

Christianity and shamanism are religions and doesn't necessarily effect culture. So are you saying that a Christian who can speak hmong, dress in hmong clothes, eat hmong food, respects their elders; is killing the hmong culture compared to a person who practice shamanism but can't speak hmong, wear American clothes, only eat American food, and disrespect their elders?

PRIDE CAN BE A WEAKNESS.

[night912]

Because God gave me life and I choose to go and worship him. Did you know that culture brings hatred that is full of memories of racism? If God would've come by now, as He as said in Revelation, God would wipe EVERY tears of man in the end of times. If this occur and God strikes you at your heart with His love, which is His sword, you will say, "goodbye cruel world. HELLO HEAVEN!" Once you see or feel God, what He is doing to you is making you forget the past, PERMANENTLY! Imagine, the joy is sooo great that you have forgotten who you really are on Earth. It's that fun. It's like getting high onto something, but you are not doing anything to your body. Only God is doing that to you because you allow His love to be all around you. God's love will wipeout man's memory of evil things ONLY--that includes history books as well. If you re-read WWII of what Hitler did, you will be pist off. So, how do you prevent THAT from happening which will cause hatred to others? Easy, just love them to death to the point they forget what just happened.

My point is this: You can use a history book as a weapon to destroy others like how false Christian uses our bible to destroy God, can be like, "OH MY GOODNESS! YOU SON OF MA B---!"

I believe there are some books that are weapons to go against other people since History is a weapon that brings grudges on all nation. For example, the rape of nanking. How long will the Chinese will end their grudge towards the Japanese? I don't know? How do you stop it? Easy. Love them to death and end their civilization since they became one with God. I tell you the truth, God is going to war against human government and will conquer this world with one word. He will do it again like how he did with Christ and He will do it AGAIN at the end of times. And I ain't afraid of that because why would I go against my creator? Therefore, earth will perish and who cares. God did say that we should not love this world but hated instead because all things are corrupted by Satan himself. So why nightyboy? Why would you ask me this lame question? Do you treasure this world or not? Are you with the Trinity, or are you with the god of this world?

Why did I ask? The answer is because you're still here. You do treasure something here that's why you're here.

[YeejKoob13]

Christianity and shamanism are religions and doesn't necessarily effect culture. So are you saying that a Christian who can speak hmong, dress in hmong clothes, eat hmong food, respects their elders; is killing the hmong culture compared to a person who practice shamanism but can't speak hmong, wear American clothes, only eat American food, and disrespect their elders?

PRIDE CAN BE A WEAKNESS.

1) Religion certainly does affect culture, and greatly I might add. Perhaps you have a different definition of what culture is compared to me, so let's state our definition for one another.

Mine is this: The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs (religion), institutions, and all other products of human work and thought... I got the definition off of the www.thefreedictionary.com, but that's what I would have said anyway.... So to me culture is like your whole body, whereas religion is the head portion of the body.

2) I'm not sure what you are trying to say or compare in your second part about the Christian and the person who doesn't know much about Hmong language... State concisely or reword it and I will answer it.

3) A quality like "respecting elders" (unless we have differing definitions) pretty much is universal and can be found in other cultures/ppl as well so it's not exclusive to us only. Not only that it's low on the totem pole (along with "eating Hmong food" and "wearing Hmong clothes") for defining who we are, no?

[YeejKoob13]

I'm a Christian and yet I am very opposed to the way Hmong church leaders attack the culture and teach their congregations to abandon everything that is Hmong. Trust me when I say that I have voiced my perspective many, many times. One cannot be a Christian or even understand it unless it is through one's own culture.

But it's not just the leaders because they are only giving in to what many congregation members want. This is why I said that in the next few years Hmong churches will only exist as a social playground. Those who are well-versed in English will opt for American churches instead where their faith can actually grow and they will learn about their faith. I could write a whole topic about this but that is another thread. 

BNM,

I've read several of your posts, here and in the faith forum, and you sound like a genuinely good and intelligent person. And you often espouse the view of maintaining the Hmong culture, practices, ways, etc. But what I don't understand is how can you, as a Christian, be able to compromise and reconcile the foreign Christian beliefs with ours and still consider yourself preserving Hmong culture?

You and others as Christians,,,, do you still;

1) noj xyoo tshiab and change up the xwmkab every year?
2) call upon the ancestors to come and join your feast (New Years or other special occasions)?
3) call upon your grandfather(s) to help guide you when "ntuj tsaus nti'?
4) practice the one month caiv for just giving birth and also hu plig for your child?
5) accept, practice and/or participate in ua neeb, whether it's for yourself or for others?
6) house blessing?
7) occasionally hu yus tus menyuam (or whoever) tus plig rov qab los when s/he is sick?
8.) ua nyuj dab for father?
9) lwv qaib and other practices for weddings?
10) raws Hmoob kevcai for funerals? (Very important aspect right here).
11) believe in Hmong after life? Reincarnation?

Those above are just the things I can think of for which Christians won't do anymore once they convert. There might be more that I missed.

And worst, the hardcore Christians, like those CMA, will even come back to attack the Hmong ways. So how can they be Hmong when they seek to eradicate big and important portion(s) of the Hmong culture?

[hmongviking]

2) I'm not sure what you are trying to say or compare in your second part about the Christian and the person who doesn't know much about Hmong language... State concisely or reword it and I will answer it.

I will reword it for night912:  Why are you so quick to point out wrongs of Hmong Christians, when there are plenty of Hmong people out there who practice Shamanism, but yet there kids don't speak or write in Hmong, listen to Hmong music, care about Hmong traditions, etc....

But yet, there is a lot of Hmong Christians who can read and write in Hmong....

So quick to point the finger at the Hmong Christians, but yet the Hmong Shamans are also losing the battle of the Hmong Culture as well.  95% of Hmong people who live in France do not speak Hmong anymore nor do they practice Hmong rituals... be it Christians or not... ask a Hmong Fabkis and they will tell you.

Hmong Shamans that live in America, tons of their kids do not practice or even speak Hmong anymore nor do they know the rituals.... I have tons of little cousins who live in St. Paul and do not speak or write Hmong, English only... 

How many times have you been to a Shaman Funeral and none of the adolescent know what to say(greet) or even know when to bow down when the Shaman playes the qeej.

And where is the blame on the Hmong Atheist, who even cares less than the Hmong Christians about keeping the Hmong Culture... since they don't even believe in anything, they don't even care about any rituals etc...   

[Tubpojntxoog]

Christianity and shamanism are religions and doesn't necessarily effect culture. So are you saying that a Christian who can speak hmong, dress in hmong clothes, eat hmong food, respects their elders; is killing the hmong culture compared to a person who practice shamanism but can't speak hmong, wear American clothes, only eat American food, and disrespect their elders?

PRIDE CAN BE A WEAKNESS.
[/

A religion is something you believe what would happen to you or where you would go after you die. Examples are Christianity, Buddhism, judaism, Hinduism, and etc... Hmong shamanism is not a religion, not the Hmong religion. It's a belief and a culture.

How can a Hmong person practices shamanism without speaking Hmong? Is he going to speak English or what? In fact, shamans use their own words that we, the general Hmong speaking people, do not understand for the most part. That's why a shaman always has his own people to watch him while performing.