Is the Hmong culture dying?

[night912]

Christianity and shamanism are religions and doesn't necessarily effect culture. So are you saying that a Christian who can speak hmong, dress in hmong clothes, eat hmong food, respects their elders; is killing the hmong culture compared to a person who practice shamanism but can't speak hmong, wear American clothes, only eat American food, and disrespect their elders?

PRIDE CAN BE A WEAKNESS.


A religion is something you believe what would happen to you or where you would go after you die. Examples are Christianity, Buddhism, judaism, Hinduism, and etc... Hmong shamanism is not a religion, not the Hmong religion. It's a belief and a culture.

How can a Hmong person practices shamanism without speaking Hmong? Is he going to speak English or what? In fact, shamans use their own words that we, the general Hmong speaking people, do not understand for the most part. That's why a shaman always has his own people to watch him while performing.

You just contradict yourself about speaking hmong.

[night912]

 

[night912]

1) Religion certainly does affect culture, and greatly I might add. Perhaps you have a different definition of what culture is compared to me, so let's state our definition for one another.

Mine is this: The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs (religion), institutions, and all other products of human work and thought... I got the definition off of the www.thefreedictionary.com, but that's what I would have said anyway.... So to me culture is like your whole body, whereas religion is the head portion of the body.

2) I'm not sure what you are trying to say or compare in your second part about the Christian and the person who doesn't know much about Hmong language... State concisely or reword it and I will answer it.

3) A quality like "respecting elders" (unless we have differing definitions) pretty much is universal and can be found in other cultures/ppl as well so it's not exclusive to us only. Not only that it's low on the totem pole (along with "eating Hmong food" and "wearing Hmong clothes") for defining who we are, no?

1. My definition is similar if not the same. However the you don't use that definition on your view of culture. You confused culture with religion. So like I said religion doesn't necessarily effect culture. With your definition above, take away religion, there are still other traits there to define what culture is.

2. Look at viking's post

3. Hmong clothes is art. You said it's low on the totem pole, so you're saying there is a ranking system to culture?

To sum it all up, you think that as long as some practice shamanism than they are more "Hmong pride."

Like I said pride can be a weakness.
 

[YeejKoob13]

1. My definition is similar if not the same. However the you don't use that definition on your view of culture. You confused culture with religion. So like I said religion doesn't necessarily effect culture. With your definition above, take away religion, there are still other traits there to define what culture is.

Define what religion is to you then. And what exactly does Hmong religion encompass?  Give specific examples and parameters. Perhaps we're both confused here because we have different definitions. You take a stab at it and I will see if I agree or not and I'll add on to it.

2. Look at viking's post

I seriously doubt you wanted to say half of Viking'd-Hmong's ramblings. He's not focused at all. I brought up how Christian Hmong are the biggest killers of our culture and yet he talks about atheists and the sorts to divert blame, as if their actions will absolve his own treachery or something.

3. Hmong clothes is art. You said it's low on the totem pole, so you're saying there is a ranking system to culture?

You don't subjectively rank things? You put the same value as occasionally "cooking Hmong food", like eating mov ntxuag dej or zaub ntsuab hau, to that of say language or religion?

When you think of a particular ethnic ppl's identity, do you right off the bat think about some of their inconsequentia l food (of which other ppl may have as well)? As if that's a salient quality?

To sum it all up, you think that as long as some practice shamanism than they are more "Hmong pride."

Did I say that? Perhaps you should expand on your summary there.

Like I said pride can be a weakness. 

Our "pride" definition here may not be the same again.

[YeejKoob13]

I will reword it for night912:  Why are you so quick to point out wrongs of Hmong Christians, when there are plenty of Hmong people out there who practice Shamanism, but yet there kids don't speak or write in Hmong, listen to Hmong music, care about Hmong traditions, etc....

But yet, there is a lot of Hmong Christians who can read and write in Hmong....

So quick to point the finger at the Hmong Christians, but yet the Hmong Shamans are also losing the battle of the Hmong Culture as well.  95% of Hmong people who live in France do not speak Hmong anymore nor do they practice Hmong rituals... be it Christians or not... ask a Hmong Fabkis and they will tell you.

Hmong Shamans that live in America, tons of their kids do not practice or even speak Hmong anymore nor do they know the rituals.... I have tons of little cousins who live in St. Paul and do not speak or write Hmong, English only... 

How many times have you been to a Shaman Funeral and none of the adolescent know what to say(greet) or even know when to bow down when the Shaman playes the qeej.

And where is the blame on the Hmong Atheist, who even cares less than the Hmong Christians about keeping the Hmong Culture... since they don't even believe in anything, they don't even care about any rituals etc...   

So how do kids who have forgotten (or haven't learnt yet) Hmong ways, atheists, etc, somehow absolve you of your wrongs? They are for another discussion. We are at the moment talking specifically about your foreign Christian religion and how it's killing the Hmong ways for now. If you read my post "reply#24" you will see I brought up the issue of some of my cousins and friends who don't think about or value the importance of Hmong cultural preservation, destiny, and future aspirations as a collective group. So yes, I'm aware of it.

I poke at the Christians primarily because they make up a large portion of who goes against us and are relentless in their desire to attack and convert the rest of us. Just take a look at you. Here's you, a guy who believes in Jehova on mere faith (but won't do the same for the Hmong way however,,, double standards?) because he's been indoctrinated and returns to belittle our way of life, our beliefs.

Indeed the ppl who have forgotten and are just ignorant of Hmong ways are not as bad as Christians. If talked to and taught they will return without much fuss, or at least they won't fight us. They are often apologetic and admit to their oversights thus are salvageable. It's not the same with the Christians. These guys (including you) will fight tooth and nail to keep the foreign religion/culture as part of theirs and at the same time turn their sabres on us. And the proofs are in here and the "faith" section. But that's not even the worst part of it. Even when you don't want them they will keep on coming back trying to convert the rest of your family/ppl; They're like zombie bots. These ppl are just Christians who can speak Hmong and not really Hmong anymore. So yes, they are THE big threat, whether they see this or not.

And no, I don't really consider Christians holding onto Hmong language/writing as preserving our culture. Why? Because now these qualities are just tools for them to perpetuate the foreign Christian religion only. It's just a medium for them to convert more of our ppl. They may in some minor yet perverse way, "preserve parts of our culture (language)" but on the other hand they destroy (like religion and everything ancillary to it) more than what they're saving. The Christian doctrines compell them to do so. Thus they then will ask us to accept and ingrain this mixed hybrid Christian baloney as being part of the Hmong culture.... Are you not shamed at all that some foreign imperial Christian ppl/culture just pissed on your ancestors' beliefs and yet you're going to accept this? If these foreigners can actually prove that their gods are real then sure, that will be fine, but they can't even do so. So why would you accept this nonsense? Have you no pride?

Funny for a guy who names himself "Viking" (one who conquers?) yet doesn't see that he just got Viking'd (one who is conquered). And you've been Viking'd by the White Christians.

[Tubpojntxoog]

You just contradict yourself about speaking hmong.

How? Did you say "a person practices shamanism without speaking Hmong"? As far as I know, all Hmong shamans speak Hmong while performing shamanic rituals, though there is an exception to that. Did you mean Hmong people who practice the Hmong religion but their children can't speak hmong? Did you use the term shamanism to refer to Hmong religion? I think younger Hmong Christians who do not know much about Hmong culture think that Hmong shamanism is the Hmong religion. It's not.

[1luv]

I go to yall hmong new years and I see no religion.  All I see are the hmong culture. 

and it is a beautiful thing. 

[night912]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=shamanism

Religion:
Ua neeb
House blessing
Believe in afterlife
More that missed

Custom:
Wedding practicees
New year
More that I missed

[YeejKoob13]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=shamanism

Religion:
Ua neeb
House blessing
Believe in afterlife
FUNERAL + rituals
More that missed

Custom:
Wedding practicees
New year
More that I missed

Good start. Research more. And think it through more.

For me anything doing with spirits and the supernaturals are considered part of religion. So religion even permeates into parts of weddings and New Years.

[night912]

Good start. Research more. And think it through more.

For me anything doing with spirits and the supernaturals are considered part of religion. So religion even permeates into parts of weddings and New Years.

So like I said, you're confusing religion with culture.

[YeejKoob13]

So like I said, you're confusing religion with culture.

You just agreed earlier that you would have defined culture the same way I did, with religion embedded into culture.

Go ahead and take the time to explain again. Instead of just a 1 or 2 liners, expand more on what you want to say. If not then forget it and go bug 1luv and Gracified23 of which they're than more happy to oblige you with the same 1-2 liners that leaves more questions than answers.

[night912]

You just agreed earlier that you would have defined culture the same way I did, with religion embedded into culture.

Go ahead and take the time to explain again. Instead of just a 1 or 2 liners, expand more on what you want to say. If not then forget it and go bug 1luv and Gracified23 of which they're than more happy to oblige you with the same 1-2 liners that leaves more questions than answers.

Your definition is not what you describe as culture. What you are describing is religion. Most of the example you list are related to religion. So even if someone doesn't practice that particular religion but does practice the other traits, they are still practicing culture.

[night912]

Our "pride" definition here may not be the same again.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pride

Here are some examples of pride. Since the topic is about Hmong, the examples are of Hmong.

Pride can be a weakness when.....

1. When a Hmong person won't attend a Hmong culture event hosted by Christians simply because he thinks his religion is correct, even though it has nothing to do with religion

2. Some thinks another is "white wash" just because they can't speak or write Hmong

3. Someone thinks another is "less" because they don't think like he thinks

4. Someone will not listen to the views of others (concerning Hmong) just because he thinks the other person is "less" Hmong

5. Someone thinks that it's right for a Hmong person to do a "hate" crime against "whites" but gets angry when the situation is reversed

6. Some blaming it on racism, without analyzing the situation 


These are just a few examples. Pride can lead to arrogance, narrow minded, and hate. It is a weakness when it leads to that and the individual will see everything blindly. 

[night912]

How? Did you say "a person practices shamanism without speaking Hmong"? As far as I know, all Hmong shamans speak Hmong while performing shamanic rituals, though there is an exception to that. Did you mean Hmong people who practice the Hmong religion but their children can't speak hmong? Did you use the term shamanism to refer to Hmong religion? I think younger Hmong Christians who do not know much about Hmong culture think that Hmong shamanism is the Hmong religion. It's not.

Shamanism is part of the Hmong religion/belief. Although they do believe in ancestor veneration (if that's what you're referring to) as well. I used "shamanism" simply because people in here understand/recognized it as the Hmong religion. In simple words, they know it by shamanism.

[YeejKoob13]

Your definition is not what you describe as culture. What you are describing is religion. Most of the example you list are related to religion. So even if someone doesn't practice that particular religion but does practice the other traits, they are still practicing culture.

Ok, I think I understand where you're going now.

Yes I mostly described cultural markers/aspects having to do with religion (spiritual stuffs). I wanted you to know how much religion encompasses our Hmong way of life, even including certain parts of weddings of which you categorized as "custom", which is fair.

Now yes, even if others (like Christian Hmong) are not practicing any religious Hmong stuffs, but are "eating Hmong food" and "wearing Hmong clothes" they still are practicing some Hmong culture. But these are so few and so miniscule? Would you still consider them Hmong if that's all they are doing?.... If that's the case then a White Mormon guy who goes to Hmong New Years and dresses up in a traditional Hmong outfit, sings 1 song in Hmong, and eats a bowl of zaub ntsuab, then he's qualified as a Hmong too then(?)