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Author Topic: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?  (Read 11238 times)

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HUNG TU LO

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 12:56:52 PM »
If they don't have time, they ask their relatives to do it. Why take away the time of their relatives when the slaughter house's purpose is to do the work. Why call relatives to help. Note "help" and not enjoy. Why work harder?

You know, some people actually enjoy doing this stuff. When relatives come over to help, it's like a get-together. They have a reason to come see each other, catch up, and have a sense of community and family. Just like how some people enjoy spending their whole morning and afternoon at church. Honestly, in my opinion that is a waste of a Sunday but I should STFU and let people do what they enjoy. You should let them be too.

Does it also kill you to know that Christianity is not a requirement for Hmong people to advance? The majority of Indian-American doctors, engineers, and business owners are Hindu. In the Chinese-American communities, many are non-religious (I suspect they practice ancestral worship folk religion) and we know that Chinese-Americans are one of the most successful groups.

Drinking that CMA juice much, eh?



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2013, 02:08:29 PM »
You know, some people actually enjoy doing this stuff. When relatives come over to help, it's like a get-together. They have a reason to come see each other, catch up, and have a sense of community and family. Just like how some people enjoy spending their whole morning and afternoon at church. Honestly, in my opinion that is a waste of a Sunday but I should STFU and let people do what they enjoy. You should let them be too.

Does it also kill you to know that Christianity is not a requirement for Hmong people to advance? The majority of Indian-American doctors, engineers, and business owners are Hindu. In the Chinese-American communities, many are non-religious (I suspect they practice ancestral worship folk religion) and we know that Chinese-Americans are one of the most successful groups.

Drinking that CMA juice much, eh?

Whoever said Christianity is required to advance? But instead of criticizing hmong Christians, why not just let them believe in what they like. Is the reason behind that fear? Why not take some of the good teachings from it to improve oneself. There are
 good things from almost all religion that can help improve oneself.

About the slaughtering of animals, I'm not talking about the cooking and eating. It's the actual slaughter part. Where do you throw away the waste you don't want at your house?


« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 03:17:54 PM by night912 »

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3 Years Time

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2013, 02:33:39 PM »
If you have ever read the chinese quasi-historical novel "A Romance of Three Kingdoms," there is a famous episode in there where an advisor helps one of the warlords striving to unite china visualize a home base, a territory, that he can consolidate his power in and launch his bid to unite china.  The warlord follows the advice and creates one of the three kingdoms that will eventually compete for supremacy.

I personally believe we have a similar favorable circumstance and all the tools now to do the same for our own self-determination.  However, we don't have the leadership or such far-sighted advisors.  Every year, that window of opportunity to achieve self-determination is closing.  What is even more sad is that not a single hmong leader has yet to see, to visualize, the situation so clearly.

I'm just curious what the opinion of everyone out there is on this subject.

Is it even possible?  Is it too late?  Is it too soon?  How is it achieved?  Where is it achieved?

Your questions and thoughts are for yesterday's world. Yesterday's world consists of a people uniting to form a nation of only its people. What we need are people who are preparing for tomorrow's world. Tomorrow's world will no longer worry about uniting only a people, but many peoples.

In tomorrow's world we forgive each other of our pasts, we see that preventing what already happened from happening again is more important than revenge. We don't worry about what China did to the ancient Hmong Kingdom because we want to build a world where we accept all race religion and creed. Where bigotry is shunned. Where we think more about how to solve problems as a human race, and not as a Hmong identity. Where we remember and honor our ancestors by not uniting the Hmong and making a Hmong nation, but by making a name for the Hmong when we make the new nation. The new nation that's meant for tomorrow's world, where we strive for all humankind and not your own kind. That's what we need, and that's where we're headed.

Tomorrow's doesn't happen overnight, it'll takes heaps of leaders to make it happen and so it's never really just one. It's not just one ethnic group that'll bring it to us but many. It's not just one person but many people who'll be needed. And if you're not ready for tomorrow's world that's not a problem because when it's here you'll see why it's what we needed and why it had to happen.

The people can only take so much, the world is only getting better. Just think, we went from the Romans and Chinese enslaving their conquered to a free society, or at least, getting close. Tomorrow's world is what we need.



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Offline YeejKoob13

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2013, 04:21:42 PM »
1. If they don't have time, they ask their relatives to do it. Why take away the time of their relatives when the slaughter house's purpose is to do the work. Why call relatives to help. Note "help" and not enjoy. Why work harder? Where dou you put the things you don't use?

2. Fear in change. Instead trying to know why hmong is converting, they just hate. I won't get into debating which religion is right or better but ill ask you this question. Why is your username YeejKoob?

3. Open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way and you will see. It doesn't matter how many examples I give, you won't see it.

1) Why shouldn't they ask their relatives to help out? One day their relatives will need their help as well... You don't think they enjoy one another's company then? ... And they simply discard the left overs, whether it's digging up some hole in the backyard, throw them in the bush at a farm, or put them on the curb for garbage trucks. Am I missing some enlightening thought from you here? Tell me if so.


2) It's you who don't get it or see it and think some "hate" for no reason. We fully recognize the assimilation christianity will cause. Furthermore it causes Hmong to fracture even more, blurr our history, etc. Have you not been paying attention to or open your eyes to see how Christian Hmongkeys don't allow their children to marry the Hmong, and vice versa? And if they do they want their kids to convert the new husband/wife? Families some times don't even attend one another's ceremonies, feasts, rituals anymore all because of these fake Jehovas's doctrines... Hmong do not fear change like your simple analysis would suggest. But we are against assimlation of which threatens our cultural self-preservation. Note the difference... Perhaps you as a young person don't recognize any of this, but culture is important in maintaining who we are. So of course we would "fear this change" that you are suggesting as it's suicidal.

Besides, it's not like the Christian Hmongkeys are any more successful than we Hmong are once they take up their new religion. I have multiple uncles who are millionaires./multi-millionaires. Two own supermarkets. One owns a high tech company. And they all still keep the Hmong ways. And some of my cousins and bros have Masters and PhD's in Ed and Science.

You don't know what Yeejkoob means?


3) Your examples, if that, are very vague. They can be misinterpreted so that's why I'm asking you to be specific.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:24:12 PM by YeejKoob13 »

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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2013, 05:41:48 PM »
1) Why shouldn't they ask their relatives to help out? One day their relatives will need their help as well... You don't think they enjoy one another's company then? ... And they simply discard the left overs, whether it's digging up some hole in the backyard, throw them in the bush at a farm, or put them on the curb for garbage trucks. Am I missing some enlightening thought from you here? Tell me if so.


2) It's you who don't get it or see it and think some "hate" for no reason. We fully recognize the assimilation christianity will cause. Furthermore it causes Hmong to fracture even more, blurr our history, etc. Have you not been paying attention to or open your eyes to see how Christian Hmongkeys don't allow their children to marry the Hmong, and vice versa? And if they do they want their kids to convert the new husband/wife? Families some times don't even attend one another's ceremonies, feasts, rituals anymore all because of these fake Jehovas's doctrines... Hmong do not fear change like your simple analysis would suggest. But we are against assimlation of which threatens our cultural self-preservation. Note the difference... Perhaps you as a young person don't recognize any of this, but culture is important in maintaining who we are. So of course we would "fear this change" that you are suggesting as it's suicidal.

Besides, it's not like the Christian Hmongkeys are any more successful than we Hmong are once they take up their new religion. I have multiple uncles who are millionaires./multi-millionaires. Two own supermarkets. One owns a high tech company. And they all still keep the Hmong ways. And some of my cousins and bros have Masters and PhD's in Ed and Science.

You don't know what Yeejkoob means?


3) Your examples, if that, are very vague. They can be misinterpreted so that's why I'm asking you to be specific.

1. There's my point. Why do the hard work of digging a hole when you could just leave the waste at the slaughter house. :idiot2:

2. Open your eyes. You're the one hating on Christians.  YeejKoob. Those letters aren't originally hmong. You said, "why take someone else religion." Well why take someone else's alphabet?




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Offline YeejKoob13

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2013, 05:58:24 PM »
1. There's my point. Why do the hard work of digging a hole when you could just leave the waste at the slaughter house. :idiot2:

2. Open your eyes. You're the one hating on Christians.  YeejKoob. Those letters aren't originally hmong. You said, "why take someone else religion." Well why take someone else's alphabet?


1) That was your enlightening point?,,, You have failed to see what myself and others have just said to you. Besides, what's so "hard" about digging a hole to put waste in? Is it going to kill you doing this or something? So at best you lose 5 min, so what?,,, it's the process of doing the ceremony that's important here, not the 5 min "of hard work wasted."

2) Yes, some others did create the RPA Hmong writing system for us. And we are using it, temporarily. In time a better system will have to be designed. If you still don't get the point then I urge you to go back and read the other thread where we were defining what Hmong is. There is a difference between using somebody's created writing system, as we didn't officially have one of our own, and taking up somebody's religion, of which we laready have our own.



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2013, 07:08:05 PM »
1) That was your enlightening point?,,, You have failed to see what myself and others have just said to you. Besides, what's so "hard" about digging a hole to put waste in? Is it going to kill you doing this or something? So at best you lose 5 min, so what?,,, it's the process of doing the ceremony that's important here, not the 5 min "of hard work wasted."

2) Yes, some others did create the RPA Hmong writing system for us. And we are using it, temporarily. In time a better system will have to be designed. If you still don't get the point then I urge you to go back and read the other thread where we were defining what Hmong is. There is a difference between using somebody's created writing system, as we didn't officially have one of our own, and taking up somebody's religion, of which we laready have our own.

1. You failed to see the point. Like I said open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way. Why work harder. These days it's about working smart not hard.

2. What's the difference? It's both using someone else's. Why is it that you always think only the things you do that was borrowed from other cultures the only acceptable ones?

It is as I said. Hmong fear change, at least most of them. By your responses it is clear that you are one of them. You want to improve hmong but is scared to try new things to help improve it. You prefer doing things the hard ways even though there is a better and more efficient way in doing it. It all comes down to fear of change.



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Great Sage

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 07:35:38 PM »
Those are examples of why hmong fear change. That is why when there is a change in the place they are at, they run away.

No they're not; they're examples of Hmong not having the guts to be themselves. Instead, they assimilate or run away and assimilate to another culture.



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 07:52:12 PM »
No they're not; they're examples of Hmong not having the guts to be themselves. Instead, they assimilate or run away and assimilate to another culture.

You just contradicted yourself. The area was changing so they were afraid and ran away.



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Great Sage

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2013, 08:34:52 PM »
You just contradicted yourself. The area was changing so they were afraid and ran away.

No I didn't... It's a matter of perspective. Your whole argument is Hmong are afraid of change. So naturally, you assume they ran away to avoid change.

My argument is that they ran away to seek change. This is evident in changes in our language and culture over time. Our ancestors were always moving and assimilating within another predominant culture, without ever establishing their own. Hence, historians argue that at one time we had a written alphabet that resembles Chinese characters. Then we moved to SE Asia where our language changed more drastically due to Thai and Lao influence.

If we were truly resistant to change as you argue, then we would be the similar, if not the same, as the Hmong who left the Middle East or China. But as it turns out, we have changed beyond those cultures. Even here in the United States, many of our children don't understand Hmong culture and can't speak the language. This is the type of change I'm referring to; change on a socio-cultural level.

And now we have those who say we should abandon what it means to be Hmong and just assimilate... In fact, it doesn't need to be said; it's happening all around us. Our history speaks for itself: we are people who change and survive without ever having a sense of real identity in the world picture. That's hardly fear, more like necessity.



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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2013, 09:37:25 AM »
No I didn't... It's a matter of perspective. Your whole argument is Hmong are afraid of change. So naturally, you assume they ran away to avoid change.

My argument is that they ran away to seek change. This is evident in changes in our language and culture over time. Our ancestors were always moving and assimilating within another predominant culture, without ever establishing their own. Hence, historians argue that at one time we had a written alphabet that resembles Chinese characters. Then we moved to SE Asia where our language changed more drastically due to Thai and Lao influence.

The area that they reside in changed that's why they moved to a different place. If they really wanted to seek change than they wouldn't be farmers for this long.

If we were truly resistant to change as you argue, then we would be the similar, if not the same, as the Hmong who left the Middle East or China. But as it turns , we have changed beyond those cultures. Even here in the United States, many of our children don't understand Hmong  culture and can't speak the language. This is the type of change I'm referring to; change on a socio-cultural level.

I never said hmong was resistant to change.

And now we have those who say we should abandon what it means to be Hmong and just assimilate... In fact, it doesn't need to be said; it's happening all around us. Our history speaks for itself: we are people who change and survive without ever having a sense of real identity in the world picture. That's hardly fear, more like necessity.

This is an example of the fear that I'm referring to. The first sign of something different, you are afraid and call it assimilation,  instead of teaching others in a different way that suits the society.




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todspengo

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2013, 11:22:53 AM »
Great men in history never self determine, they join an organization the rise to the top of it. A group of people can do the same too. Take a page from the Jews and emulate. They assimilate to every country they live in and rise to the top of it, but never lost their identity. Control the money and you control the politicians, control the politicians and you control the country. Like the Jews have American politicians by the balls.



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Offline YeejKoob13

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2013, 11:12:10 PM »
1. You failed to see the point. Like I said open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way. Why work harder. These days it's about working smart not hard.

2. What's the difference? It's both using someone else's. Why is it that you always think only the things you do that was borrowed from other cultures the only acceptable ones?

It is as I said. Hmong fear change, at least most of them. By your responses it is clear that you are one of them. You want to improve hmong but is scared to try new things to help improve it. You prefer doing things the hard ways even though there is a better and more efficient way in doing it. It all comes down to fear of change.

1) Why don't you give us a precise example of the type of animals slaughtered (pig? cow? chicken?) and what the purpose or occasion is and we'll be able to gauge the situation better if it's more efficient to do it at a slaughter house or the person's home. Is it for cultural ceremony or no?

2) The difference was explained to you already. Pay attention.

3) Sure, go ahead and change however you want then. Only a person with no integrity and principles will do so recklessly.

I already explained to you and gave examples as well that Hmong ppl who hold onto the Hmong ways are just as successful or even moreso than those who have taken up a foreign religion, like Christianity, yet you have blinders on and keep repeating your new found flash words "fear of change" over and over again. Why change recklessly and uphold somebody's culture and destroy yours in the process for?





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bulbasaur

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2013, 12:18:53 PM »
Short answer, No.  Hmong people probably can not achieve self-determination in SE Asia. 

Long answer...

1.  Currently, Hmong people won't be recognized as significant enough to be self-determining.  The population isn't there.  The influence isn't there.  On the global scale, the UN will certainly not support it.  Hmong people are most likely viewed as tribal.  This might change if the population becomes large enough and influential enough. 

2.  I don't believe this is an issue of leadership as it is an issue of cause.  I like to believe that there are many Hmong individuals with strong leadership skills.  However, the cause of self-determination doesn't seem strong enough for followers. 

3.  This isn't really an issue of religion. 

4.  Many people fear change; Hmong people included.  Hmong have changed greatly over the years.  Yet, many Hmong people reject these changes as well (look at the religious arguments).  That being said, fear doesn't seem to be the driving factor for lack of self-determination either.  If anything, it might be comfort.  The generation of Hmong people who were born in America have no desire of a Hmong country.  I don't want to speak for the Hmong people abroad, but they might also be more interested in just living life instead fighting and politics. 



If you have ever read the chinese quasi-historical novel "A Romance of Three Kingdoms," there is a famous episode in there where an advisor helps one of the warlords striving to unite china visualize a home base, a territory, that he can consolidate his power in and launch his bid to unite china.  The warlord follows the advice and creates one of the three kingdoms that will eventually compete for supremacy.

I personally believe we have a similar favorable circumstance and all the tools now to do the same for our own self-determination.  However, we don't have the leadership or such far-sighted advisors.  Every year, that window of opportunity to achieve self-determination is closing.  What is even more sad is that not a single hmong leader has yet to see, to visualize, the situation so clearly.

I'm just curious what the opinion of everyone out there is on this subject.

Is it even possible?  Is it too late?  Is it too soon?  How is it achieved?  Where is it achieved?



« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 06:53:38 PM by bulbasaur »

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night912

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Re: Can Hmong Achieve Self-Determination in SEAsia?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2013, 12:56:31 PM »
1) Why don't you give us a precise example of the type of animals slaughtered (pig? cow? chicken?) and what the purpose or occasion is and we'll be able to gauge the situation better if it's more efficient to do it at a slaughter house or the person's home. Is it for cultural ceremony or no?

2) The difference was explained to you already. Pay attention.

3) Sure, go ahead and change however you want then. Only a person with no integrity and principles will do so recklessly.

I already explained to you and gave examples as well that Hmong ppl who hold onto the Hmong ways are just as successful or even moreso than those who have taken up a foreign religion, like Christianity, yet you have blinders on and keep repeating your new found flash words "fear of change" over and over again. Why change recklessly and uphold somebody's culture and destroy yours in the process for?

You've just proven that you are one of those who fear change. Something new comes along and you get scared thinking it will destroy you. You've already given up on preserving the hmong culture.



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