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Author Topic: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia  (Read 11315 times)

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SVanTha

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Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« on: July 14, 2013, 09:03:37 PM »
I think we all have a general idea of what happened since we entered SEAsia, but getting information about exact dates and events have been kinda hit or miss.  I found a site that has the best chronological, detailed and personal data on this historical period.  Posting it here for others that may be interested:  http://www.unforgettable-laos.com/historical-of-events/part-1/

One of the fascinating things i read was:

"This news spread to the Hmong in China, who threatened to send Chinese Hmong to help the Lao Hmong in Laos. Later on, Father Savina (a French preacher) came to intervene to stop the French from persecuting the Hmong."

Apparently, we maintained a much better network with our people in china then than we do now.  What a shame we let that network erode so much.



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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2013, 09:17:41 PM »
I think we all have a general idea of what happened since we entered SEAsia, but getting information about exact dates and events have been kinda hit or miss.  I found a site that has the best chronological, detailed and personal data on this historical period.  Posting it here for others that may be interested:  http://www.unforgettable-laos.com/historical-of-events/part-1/

One of the fascinating things i read was:

"This news spread to the Hmong in China, who threatened to send Chinese Hmong to help the Lao Hmong in Laos. Later on, Father Savina (a French preacher) came to intervene to stop the French from persecuting the Hmong."

Apparently, we maintained a much better network with our people in china then than we do now.  What a shame we let that network erode so much.

I didn't know the relationship has eroded? How and when?



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SVanTha

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 10:35:37 PM »
I didn't know the relationship has eroded? How and when?

When we were fighting the french, our chinese compatriots knew about it, were concerned and even contemplated sending help.

Fast forward like a 100 years or so when we fought the vietnamese and pathet lao.  Our chinese compatriots sent no word, no help, no promises of reinforcement.  I'd say that was a stark contrast from when we first entered SEAsia and underlies the erosion of our relationship.

Fast forward to the present where there's still a number of people who have no idea that we are related culturally, linguistically or genetically to any groups in china.  Sure they know we originated in china, but that's the extent of their knowledge.

Its definitely getting better and approaching levels we had when we first left china, but we've barely made a dent in true cooperation and cohesion with our chinese compatriots.



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HUNG TU LO

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2013, 11:44:54 PM »
When we were fighting the french, our chinese compatriots knew about it, were concerned and even contemplated sending help.

Fast forward like a 100 years or so when we fought the vietnamese and pathet lao.  Our chinese compatriots sent no word, no help, no promises of reinforcement.  I'd say that was a stark contrast from when we first entered SEAsia and underlies the erosion of our relationship.

That's an easy one. With the French, we were unfairly taxed. That was OUR fight.

With the Vietnam civil conflict, it didn't involve us. We were used as pawns for a strategic purpose; slowing down and harassing caravan along the Ho Chi Minh trail. It WASN'T our fight.

They weren't interested in the lands that Hmong lived on. Don't give me that crap! Those weren't even our lands! That was Laos soil so save me the sensationalize d propaganda. IT WASN'T OUR FIGHT AND EVERYONE AROUND US KNEW IT EXCEPT US.



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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2013, 11:58:34 PM »
When we were fighting the french, our chinese compatriots knew about it, were concerned and even contemplated sending help.

Fast forward like a 100 years or so when we fought the vietnamese and pathet lao.  Our chinese compatriots sent no word, no help, no promises of reinforcement.  I'd say that was a stark contrast from when we first entered SEAsia and underlies the erosion of our relationship.

Fast forward to the present where there's still a number of people who have no idea that we are related culturally, linguistically or genetically to any groups in china.  Sure they know we originated in china, but that's the extent of their knowledge.

Its definitely getting better and approaching levels we had when we first left china, but we've barely made a dent in true cooperation and cohesion with our chinese compatriots.

I see. Thanks.

I remember reading a letter some years ago from the Hmong Chinese. They said the Hmong and the Chinese are two brothers with the same bones and that we Hmong Americans are related to the Hmong Chinese and that we should not forget about them and that we should send them money to help them do some spiritual ceremonies so that the Hmong around the world will prosper.

I'm not sure what happened to that request. I wasn't in charge of anything. So I let the elders handle those things.



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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 12:02:26 AM »
That's an easy one. With the French, we were unfairly taxed. That was OUR fight.

With the Vietnam civil conflict, it didn't involve us. We were used as pawns for a strategic purpose; slowing down and harassing caravan along the Ho Chi Minh trail. It WASN'T our fight.

They weren't interested in the lands that Hmong lived on. Don't give me that crap! Those weren't even our lands! That was Laos soil so save me the sensationalize d propaganda. IT WASN'T OUR FIGHT AND EVERYONE AROUND US KNEW IT EXCEPT US.

The CIA must have done a really good job of plotting us against the other Asians.



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HUNG TU LO

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 01:10:20 AM »
The CIA must have done a really good job of plotting us against the other Asians.

It doesn't take much. Germany was quite an educated population and it took but a few people in power, namely Adolf, to make them believe Judaism is to be exterminated and everything non-Aryan was inferior. They lost WW1, their economy was in shambles, and they were looking for a new vision and all it took was a madman with a strong voice to lead them down the wrong path.

When people are confused, angry, and desperate, you can make them believe that cutting their own penis' off is the way to reach a comet (Heaven's Gate cult).



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SVanTha

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 05:45:08 PM »
That's an easy one. With the French, we were unfairly taxed. That was OUR fight.

With the Vietnam civil conflict, it didn't involve us. We were used as pawns for a strategic purpose; slowing down and harassing caravan along the Ho Chi Minh trail. It WASN'T our fight.

They weren't interested in the lands that Hmong lived on. Don't give me that crap! Those weren't even our lands! That was Laos soil so save me the sensationalize d propaganda. IT WASN'T OUR FIGHT AND EVERYONE AROUND US KNEW IT EXCEPT US.

I disagree.  It did involve us.

We were not invited to vietnam or laos or thailand, but we showed up like uninvited guests.  Now, you can say what you will about the leaders of those countries, but at the end of the day, they tolerated us and allowed us to settle.  That in itself deserved some show of gratitude on our part.

Secondly, hmong leadership, since the days of first being raised to governmental positions, were already working with and under the ruling party, french or lao.  GVP was just another hmong leader in that line of tradition.  There's lots of pictures in the website i linked of the lao king and lao princes and lao ministers coming to Long Cheng to congratulate, reward and praise GVP on his successes.

The issue and misperception, among lao and hmong, is that hmong operated as a separate entity with a separate agenda.  That's completely false.  That perception comes from our own success and the failures of the lao.  For example:

In 1872, hordes of Chinese red flag, yellow flag and multicolor flag troops invaded the northern part of Laos. The French leaders contacted the Hmong and recruited them to fight against the invaders. The successful operation increased French confidence in the Hmong.

In almost all operations in laos, the hmong were to have the supporting role and the lao the main role because of numbers, since the lao vastly outnumbered us.  As it turned out, the lao failed pretty consistently and the hmong would end up shouldering the load the lao were supposed to be doing.  That brought the hmong into the spotlight and fuels those misconceptions of separatism.



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HUNG TU LO

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 06:21:31 PM »
I disagree.  It did involve us.

We were not invited to vietnam or laos or thailand, but we showed up like uninvited guests.  Now, you can say what you will about the leaders of those countries, but at the end of the day, they tolerated us and allowed us to settle.  That in itself deserved some show of gratitude on our part.

Secondly, hmong leadership, since the days of first being raised to governmental positions, were already working with and under the ruling party, french or lao.  GVP was just another hmong leader in that line of tradition.  There's lots of pictures in the website i linked of the lao king and lao princes and lao ministers coming to Long Cheng to congratulate, reward and praise GVP on his successes.

The issue and misperception, among lao and hmong, is that hmong operated as a separate entity with a separate agenda.  That's completely false.  That perception comes from our own success and the failures of the lao.  For example:

In 1872, hordes of Chinese red flag, yellow flag and multicolor flag troops invaded the northern part of Laos. The French leaders contacted the Hmong and recruited them to fight against the invaders. The successful operation increased French confidence in the Hmong.

In almost all operations in laos, the hmong were to have the supporting role and the lao the main role because of numbers, since the lao vastly outnumbered us.  As it turned out, the lao failed pretty consistently and the hmong would end up shouldering the load the lao were supposed to be doing.  That brought the hmong into the spotlight and fuels those misconceptions of separatism.

Read your post word-for-word. Read it again, and again, and again.

Not one single word of "Vietnam". This was a Vietnam conflict and didn't involve us. Seriously, do you know what you are talking about?



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SVanTha

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 06:55:03 PM »
Read your post word-for-word. Read it again, and again, and again.

Not one single word of "Vietnam". This was a Vietnam conflict and didn't involve us. Seriously, do you know what you are talking about?

Go read history.  At the same time the vietnamese invaded laos to establish a route to the south, their other objective was to overthrow the current government, who was pro-western and who our leaders were serving.  So yes, it did involve us.

Read again where the hmong leaders have supported the ruling leaders, whether french or lao.



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Offline YeejKoob13

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 01:38:05 AM »
Some of you should quit it with the mentality that "Laos is not our land." If it's not our land then it's not the Lao's either. The Khmu were the original ppl there. The Lao came earlier than us only and took it over from the Khmu. Sure we came a little later than the Lao, but came we did, and settled there we also did, in land (mountains) nobody has lived on yet. We have as much right to call it our land as anybody in that country.

If the Lao should claim that the land doesn't belong to us then they're hypocrites, just like White Europeans coming to America and killing off the Indians and claiming its theirs and all others are outsiders/foreigners. Well here we are, and it's ours too. It's not about who is here first, but who will still be here in the long run.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 02:03:19 AM by YeejKoob13 »

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HUNG TU LO

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 09:33:58 AM »
Go read history.  At the same time the vietnamese invaded laos to establish a route to the south, their other objective was to overthrow the current government, who was pro-western...

Don't patronize me because I know the history and I see it for what it is. I don't go off on emotions and sensationalize d propaganda. First of all, the majority of Hmong were not considered to be citizens of Laos. General Vang Pao, Lyfuong family, and other rich and powerful Hmong were considered to be citizens but if you think the King and the rest of Laos thought of the typical mountain Hmong person to be a citizen like they are, you are out of touch with reality.



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MovKuam

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 04:03:50 PM »
In 1872, hordes of Chinese red flag, yellow flag and multicolor flag troops invaded the northern part of Laos. The French leaders contacted the Hmong and recruited them to fight against the invaders. The successful operation increased French confidence in the Hmong.


agree with HUNG TU LO, its French and Vietnamese conflict.



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SVanTha

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 05:08:17 PM »
Don't patronize me because I know the history and I see it for what it is. I don't go off on emotions and sensationalize d propaganda. First of all, the majority of Hmong were not considered to be citizens of Laos. General Vang Pao, Lyfuong family, and other rich and powerful Hmong were considered to be citizens but if you think the King and the rest of Laos thought of the typical mountain Hmong person to be a citizen like they are, you are out of touch with reality.

Quote
Don't patronize me because I know the history and I see it for what it is.
Okie Dokie, i won't patronize you.  I'll just quote you:  "Seriously, do you know what you are talking about?"

Quote
"...I know the history..."
Obviously you don't.  Your conclusions are based off who knows what communist manifesto, but it's definitely not what the actual historical events are, comrade.

Quote
I don't go off on emotions and sensationalize d propaganda
"IT WASN'T OUR FIGHT AND EVERYONE AROUND US KNEW IT EXCEPT US." - Emotional much?

"First of all, the majority of Hmong were not considered to be citizens of Laos. General Vang Pao, Lyfuong family, and other rich and powerful Hmong were considered to be citizens but if you think the King and the rest of Laos thought of the typical mountain Hmong person to be a citizen like they are, you are out of touch with reality." - Propaganda much?


Photo #85.  H.M. King Savang Vatthana and high-ranking officials paying visit to Long Cheng in 1965

That sure looks like a picture of a king receiving his subjects/citizens.  That's my reality; supported by history, supported by documentation.  Your reality hasn't been supported by history, nor have you provided documentation written or visual that H.M. King Savang Vatthana did not view the hmong people as citizens of his kingdom.



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SVanTha

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Re: Hmong History Since Entering SEAsia
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 05:25:14 PM »
agree with HUNG TU LO, its French and Vietnamese conflict.

And i wish it would have remained a French and Vietnamese conflict only.  And when that conflict was resolved, i wish the next one would have remained an American and Vietnamese conflict only.  But it didn't.

The reason it didn't is because the Vietnamese broke the 1962 Geneva Agreement on the Neutrality of Laos and invaded Laos to establish the Ho Chi Minh trail and to overthrow the pro-western government.  14 countries, including both North and South Vietnam, participated in and signed that charter:

Burma, Cambodia, Canada, China, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, France, India, the Royal Government of Laos, Poland, the Republic of Vietnam, Thailand, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom and The USA.



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