Dumb Anti-Gay Arguments...

[Believe_N_Me]

Are you even Hmong? Its defined as a union between one man and MULTIPLE women....(i.e. polygamy)...  the majority of hmongs (westernized) may not practice it, but its still recognized...l ook at General Vang Pao and the many wives he had.

Now let's look at why married men are ordered to marry their mistress(es) in our culture.

MARRIAGE - the consummation of a man and a woman. Again, I shouldn't have to explain to you basic biology. The result of that consummation may or may not result in a baby 9 months later, however, if heterosexual partners aren't going to give up their physical actions, a child resulting from that DESERVES A MOTHER AND FATHER.

The Hmong do not encourage polygamy unless under certain circumstances. But they do recognize that a married man who can't control his sexual desires and remain monogamous to his wife ought to marry his mistress(es) for the reasons I have already stated above.

[Evil_K_Man]

Seriously guys? This is your answer? This is how you rationalize polygamy in our culture simply by calling the second wives/subsequent ones mistresses?  I'm sorry, but that is purely your own opinions. They are not mistresses, they are treated like wives, they recieve traditionaly marriages/doweries like wives. The reasons may vary as to why some men want more than one wives, but the fact of the matter is that is accepted as part of our culture.  Westernized hmongs many not agree with this practice anymore, but it doesn't invalidate it.

[Evil_K_Man]

The Hmong do not encourage polygamy unless under certain circumstances.

Dude, stop contradicting yourself....ei ther it is or it isn't and in this case, you stated it yourself...IT IS.

[bulbasaur]

Let's add this to the list.....

http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,350535.new.html#new

 

[dogmai]

How about let's just return to common sense.

I don't know of any wildlife conservation organization that keeps two males for the purpose of saving an endangered species. Let me know when the last two female polar bears on earth can propagate their species and prevent total extinction.

Let's put it this way. If there ever comes a day when earth is going to be annihilated by an asteroid and human beings have one capsule to lodge into outer space to save our species, nobody is going to send two males or two females in that capsule. They are going to send one male and one female.

Although this may be true, it is irrelevant. The male and female doesn't have to be married. In which this will draw in new arguments.

[bulbasaur]

So, here is one more to add to the dumb anti-gay arguments.   

"I'm so tired of trying to teach you logic.  You talk about MP for premise/conclusion trying to make you sound good.  I've only written about premise/conclusion on this website for the past several years so you are recalling what I taught you.  Now, I've also written on set theory as well.  I recall ripping someone just like you up on set theory because they didn't understand the basic operation of it.  So here I go again teaching my brothers and sisters on PH set theory.  I'm cool with that.  I want you all to be well verse so when you are in a management meeting and they talk about permutation and combination you actually know what it means...versus, going huh?  Anyways, that's another topic.

Let A = the set of all man on Earth living today.
Let B = the set of all black man on Earth living today.

By definition, A is the superset of B.  Meaning the set of B exists in A as a subset.  So when we think about supernatural vs. natural, it's the same thing.  Supernatural includes natural because supernatural is the superset of natural.  Hence, God can move from this infinite space (if there is such a thing) to our 4D space.

This is so basic.  I don't understand why you can't comprehend this.  It's like you have a mindblock because you are so into winning a silly debate online versus growing in proper knowledge.  Winning and losing on PH is nonsense.  You don't even get a cookie for it.  I'm not sure why you are so bent on it.

Here's the litmus test if you think what you propose natural.  Let's say you are right that being homosexual is natural and that it is supported by evolution.  IF all man an woman on earth stops coupling with the opposite sex, in at most 4 generations, humanity will be extinct.  That to me speaks more volume than what you all propose.  For being so evolutionist and hell bent on proving it, some of you don't even live by the standards.  In fact, I've concluded that people in this segment of society seeks arguments that supports their lifestyle.

I hate rules and God made rules he must be bad...Let me find something to suggest...OH there is evolution.

I want to be non-heterosexual and I think it is right so let me find the answer...it's natural and people like you completely ignore the prior rules for the sake of justifying your own existence.

Fawking sad."

[Believe_N_Me]

Dude, stop contradicting yourself....ei ther it is or it isn't and in this case, you stated it yourself...IT IS.

What are you talking about? Polygamy is damage control when a married man can't keep his penis between his legs. In some cases, polygamy benefits the woman especially if she's an older widow with children. I highly suggest you learn the Hmong culture and how things came to be due to their environmental circumstances before voicing your ignorant western perceptions.

Although this may be true, it is irrelevant. The male and female doesn't have to be married. In which this will draw in new arguments.

No, men and women don't have to be married to conceive a baby, which is EXACTLY why the Marriage Institution came into place. It is the only social institution that legally binds a man to a woman so that a child is expected to be raised by BOTH its parents. This benefits the society because then society doesn't have to raise that baby.

Perhaps some of you are unfamiliar with the downfall in Black communities where too many babies are not being raised in a two-parent household because baby momma is not married to baby daddy. We all know the outcome of such babies. 

[dogmai]

.

No, men and women don't have to be married to conceive a baby, which is EXACTLY why the Marriage Institution came into place. It is the only social institution that legally binds a man to a woman so that a child is expected to be raised by BOTH its parents. This benefits the society because then society doesn't have to raise that baby.

Perhaps some of you are unfamiliar with the downfall in Black communities where too many babies are not being raised in a two-parent household because baby momma is not married to baby daddy. We all know the outcome of such babies.

So it all comes back down to only those who have children or capable of having children. That means sterile people can't get marry.

[Believe_N_Me]

So it all comes back down to only those who have children or capable of having children. That means sterile people can't get marry.

Sterile people getting married still benefits society. Since marriage is a social contract where the parties involved enter a monogamous relationship, there is expectation that neither will become destructive to other marriages by having adulterous relationships - especially if the other marriages do have children. Now I know you're already going to say BUT some married people cheat anyways. Yes, some married people do but that doesn't mean the expectations and laws of marriage shouldn't exist. It's like saying we should do away with laws that state stealing is a criminal offense because people are bound to steal anyways. 

Also, heterosexuals, even if sterile, provide the ideal environment to raise children even if through adoption or foster care. This isn't to say that homosexuals aren't good parents. It's saying that heterosexual couples are the ideal. Example: it's the ideal that a black kid is raised by a black couple rather than a white couple. We know that this is an ideal match though circumstances might otherwise warrant alternatives.

******************************

On another note, the title of this thread is nonsense. To be ANTI-GAY is to cause direct and intentional harm to gays, which none of the arguments have. We are not talking about the Matthew Shepherd case and violent acts where gays are being lynched in the public square. Gays enjoy the same freedom as we do and in fact, many have excelled further than the likes of you and me!

Suze Orman, Rosie O'Donnell, and Ellen Degeneres do not need your sympathy as they are capable lesbians that have reached levels of success you and I will never see in our lifetime. So for any gays and supporters to make outlandish claims that we live like it's the 1800s is ludicrous. If that was true, these lesbians wouldn't have Emmy-award winning shows that rake in billions of dollars. In fact, for some of them it is their "gayness" that has catapulted their careers. Gays have enjoyed freedom and the freedom to marry and live with whomever they want for years before any of this disastrous political b.s. To say their movement is an echo of the Black Civil Movement is offensive. 

[dogmai]

Gays have enjoyed freedom and the freedom to marry and live with whomever they want for years

There you go.

[Evil_K_Man]

8v10,

I know that a mistress is not legal, because a mistress is NOT a wife. She is not recognized as one nor does she go through the formal processes of becoming one. Mistress exist for one sole purpose, which is to provide pleasure for the man she is serving. She is not there to provide him with children or protect his lineage (although with poor planning kids eventually happen unexpectedly).  In our culture, the other wives are NOT mistress because they provide much more than just pleasure. They are there to help provide for the family along with giving the husband more children…essentially they serve the purpose of a WIFE.  Thus they are given titles of first, second, third.  Of the hmong men who I know that have more than one wife (which is very few), they do not consider their other wives as mistresses nor does anybody within the community I grew up in. They were invited to every function and treated like a wife.

Polygamy is a very simple concept to understand, and there is no need to complicate it. Its sole purpose is reproduction. Whether it’s to ensure a lineage survives (since the probably of children surviving to adulthood back in those days were very low and sometimes producing male offsprings could be a challenge), tend to farmland, or whatever you want, it’s simply exist to create a larger family and ensure lineage.

But that’s not to say that today’s current hmong men (especially the westernized ones who visit Laos/Thailand/other hmong inhabited countries) take wives whom serve them as mistresses. But it’s simply a way of having his cake and getting to eat it without losing face to the hmong community.

Again, this still doesn’t invalidate polygamy as a definition to marriage in the hmong community.

[bulbasaur]

So because of this, you want to deny gays equal rights?....Refer back to the title of the thread.   

When push come to shove, I know what I say is the truth.  Why?  My grandfather married to wives.  My FiL married two wives.  Let me tell the community, they both did not bring both wives over legitimately and the other wife was heartbroken she had to be left out in the cold.  So while you talk that there existed such a system, we are in America now and that system is dead.  Every time a horn-dog Hmong old man goes to Laos and marries a young girl home, he starts by divorcing his first wife legally.  Do tell me that system that you keep trying to talk about?  I don't see it.  I live and breath this so-call 2nd wives bullshit you keep telling me but the reality is the MAN never confesses he has TWO wives.  He has 1 wife and 1 girlfriend (aka mistress).  That's the damn truth.  So while you sugarcoat it, I don't.  Let me restate: THERE EXISTS NO POLYGAMY IN HMONG CULTURE.  Until the community confesses and go to jail for each offense then I'll believe it, but no Hmong Man is man enough to go to jail for his love of two women.   

I suppose if you name me one, I might start believing because when I peer into my other grandmother and other MiL eyes, there are times I can pierce through their eyes and gaze into their soul and there's a deep scar and sadness because they know it's not real because the papers are not there.  Don't matter what he says because he may profess to his inside community she's real but outwardly to the world that matters, he won't, and he's afraid to proclaim it.  So do tell me what polygamy is in Hmong culture?  It's dead.

In a polygamy society, the husbands brings a new wife and the eldest wife accepts, care for this new wife and etc...  Together, the two wives and the husband makes a new life together, live together, sleeps in the same bed together.  You don't see shit like that in modern Hmong culture as a common theme.  Heck, I've only seen this ONCE and I can assure you that this man too did not proclaim the 2nd wife as a wife...it too was girlfriend...b ut unlike the most, it was a loving relationship.  Most so call polygamy is toleration of each other because of lost of face...there is no support.  In the end, the husband ends up all jacked up because he made all the wrong moves.  If he does this shit later in his life, he alienates his children and they leave him hanging.  I just came home from a great uncle funeral, and he did some stupid shit...divorce 1st wife, marries 2nd wife, whoops...less than 2 years later he dies.  If I was his kid, I'll say good riddance dip shit because I'm very mean to those who violate people I love such as my mother.  I told my dad straight up that if I was in their shoe (the kids), I will not be funding a funeral unless my mother commands me to.  Nobody breaks my family up and does not make penance for it...even my father...Then I also told my father, I'm 10x more mean than he is.   

[bulbasaur]

And again....

So because of this, you want to deny gays equal rights?....Refer back to the title of the thread.   

Ah yes...polygamy was a way for EKM to establish some grounds for why marriage should be redefined.  I had to remind him that polygamy does not exists in Hmong society...it's a load of crap...as I've yet to hear about a Hmong guy go to jail confessing he is a polygamist.  Until a Hmong polygamist utter such strong opinion openly in court then it is suffice to say polygamy does not exists.  Talk is cheap until you place your hand on the Bible and state it to a judge and due time for it...anyone know of a hmong polygamist? 

[bulbasaur]

Who's denying you that?  Did someone say that your church can't hold those beliefs?   

Deny them of rights?  How about deny me of my right to a proper marriage definition stood by historical time.

[bulbasaur]

So, who is denying you marriage?  Are you making stuff up again?   You are just adding to the title of this thread. 

17th century scholars still didn't believe the Earth was flat. 

certain group is going to make a run for it but it will never happen...so while you cry foul, I suggest you work on the legislative part to add and civil union after marriage.  Nobody is denying you equality too...you just too lazy to work for it.