PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: SVanTha on July 14, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
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If you have ever read the chinese quasi-historical novel "A Romance of Three Kingdoms," there is a famous episode in there where an advisor helps one of the warlords striving to unite china visualize a home base, a territory, that he can consolidate his power in and launch his bid to unite china. The warlord follows the advice and creates one of the three kingdoms that will eventually compete for supremacy.
I personally believe we have a similar favorable circumstance and all the tools now to do the same for our own self-determination. However, we don't have the leadership or such far-sighted advisors. Every year, that window of opportunity to achieve self-determination is closing. What is even more sad is that not a single hmong leader has yet to see, to visualize, the situation so clearly.
I'm just curious what the opinion of everyone out there is on this subject.
Is it even possible? Is it too late? Is it too soon? How is it achieved? Where is it achieved?
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The biggest obstacle we Hmong face is the fact that there exists an overwhelming large pool of people (mainly anybody who has been acculturated into American culture) who will never see a necessity for a Hmong leader. It doesn't make sense to them to establish a new set of standards to follow since mainstream already provides an effective one - according to them since that is all they know and have been taught. A leader to them is someone of the same mindset. But then that is just counterproduct ive since one could just be mainstream and follow mainstream leaders/policies, etc.
In a nutshell, the Hmong do not lack leaders, the Hmong lack followers.
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Lack of followers is only the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is that hmong fear change.
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We have a sense of self-determination, we just don't have a collective sense of self-determination
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Lack of followers is only the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is that hmong fear change.
That isn't true at all. I don't know any Hmong person who doesn't want to always be doing better. The problem is that they're not given the proper tools (in ways that they can understand) to do better. The younger generation doesn't quite understand this. They complain that there is lack of leadership but they won't admit that they never intend to follow anyways.
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That isn't true at all. I don't know any Hmong person who doesn't want to always be doing better. The problem is that they're not given the proper tools (in ways that they can understand) to do better. The younger generation doesn't quite understand this. They complain that there is lack of leadership but they won't admit that they never intend to follow anyways.
Like I said, hmong fear change.
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The key is, the path to self-determination is no longer simply based on firepower. That's the way the OGs think and that's the surest way to failure cause we'll immediately lose the support of the americans.
The other thing is, the hmongs in america don't have to be united; they just have to be concerned, and hmong are universally concerned about self-determination. What they provide is money, expertise and american connections. All you need for $1,000,000 USD, is 10,000 'concerned' hmong individuals who will give $100. That translates to $31,122,000 Thai Baht and even more Lao money. For reference, you can build a nice house in thailand for $1,000,000 baht or $32,000 USD.
Guys, it's all been done already by the chinese in thailand, specifically bangkok. 15% are pure chinese and up to 50% are mixed chinese. They came in and dominated the economy because of their chinese connections all throughout SEAsia back to china. Many, maybe even most, of the previous and current prime ministers are chinese descended. Even the royal family has chinese blood.
If we pour money from america into a region, the hmong will come. If we use our connections, they will come from vietnam and china as well cause; unfortunately, many of them live in poverty too. If we provide them with our expertise, they will flourish.
p.s. - Laos is a dead end and will always be. Thailand is already dominated by the chinese. Think outside the box.
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Lack of followers is only the symptom of a bigger problem. The problem is that hmong fear change.
Explain further what you mean by "Hmong fear change" and give examples of them.
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Like I said, hmong fear change.
I disagree as well... History doesn't lie - Hmong don't fear change; if anything, Hmong change too often. That's our problem, we're always dancing to the tune of whomever welcomes us without ever defining ourselves in the world picture.
Here's what I mean:
1. We were arguably in the Middle East assimilated, then things got bad and we moved out.
2. We settled around China until things got bad and moved again.
3. Next stop, Laos and Thailand where our culture changed some more due to our new environment.
4. Now, we're in America and everyone says, "stope being Hmong now... You're in a better place." But when things go sour, we will up and leave again.
WE HAVE NO IDENTITY BECAUSE WE JUST WANT TO CHANGE AND NOT ESTABLISH OURSELVES!
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Self-determination is a personal thing. But independence or autonomy of a people--that's a different thing, right?
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I disagree as well... History doesn't lie - Hmong don't fear change; if anything, Hmong change too often. That's our problem, we're always dancing to the tune of whomever welcomes us without ever defining ourselves in the world picture.
Here's what I mean:
1. We were arguably in the Middle East assimilated, then things got bad and we moved out.
2. We settled around China until things got bad and moved again.
3. Next stop, Laos and Thailand where our culture changed some more due to our new environment.
4. Now, we're in America and everyone says, "stope being Hmong now... You're in a better place." But when things go sour, we will up and leave again.
WE HAVE NO IDENTITY BECAUSE WE JUST WANT TO CHANGE AND NOT ESTABLISH OURSELVES!
Those are examples of why hmong fear change. That is why when there is a change in the place they are at, they run away.
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Explain further what you mean by "Hmong fear change" and give examples of them.
Examples:
1. Animal slaughtering. The point of a slaughter house is so the animal is butcher for you. But hmong still wants to do it the hard old way.
2. Many hmong are now converting to Christianity. People fear that change so they look down on those Christians.
3. The way of teaching the young must change so they are willing to learn. But the older generation still teaches the same way.
There is more.
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Examples:
1. Animal slaughtering. The point of a slaughter house is so the animal is butcher for you. But hmong still wants to do it the hard old way.
2. Many hmong are now converting to Christianity. People fear that change so they look down on those Christians.
3. The way of teaching the young must change so they are willing to learn. But the older generation still teaches the same way.
There is more.
1) If Hmong want to slaughter animals the "old way" in their backyard, farm, or house then that's prerogative. If they have the time for that, leave them be. It's the process that keeps their tradition alive. And this defines them. It's not about economics. If it's about economics then yes you would have a point.
2) Why would you want Hmong to convert into Christianity for? That's stupid on their part and you should not be supporting them on this. Apparently you took nothing from our earlier conversation then... If Hmong want to change and search for higher education, business, technology, etc, then sure. But to pick up somebody else' religion, which is no better or truer than yours, so your ppl can be assimilated makes no sense. Change for the better, not for the worst!
3) I don't see what you are seeing at all here unless you give a specific example.
Yes, list more examples, but be precise.
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1) If Hmong want to slaughter animals the "old way" in their backyard, farm, or house then that's prerogative. If they have the time for that, leave them be. It's the process that keeps their tradition alive. And this defines them. It's not about economics. If it's about economics then yes you would have a point.
2) Why would you want Hmong to convert into Christianity for? That's stupid on their part and you should not be supporting them on this. Apparently you took nothing from our earlier conversation then... If Hmong want to change and search for higher education, business, technology, etc, then sure. But to pick up somebody else' religion, which is no better or truer than yours, so your ppl can be assimilated makes no sense. Change for the better, not for the worst!
3) I don't see what you are seeing at all here unless you give a specific example.
Yes, list more examples, but be precise.
1. If they don't have time, they ask their relatives to do it. Why take away the time of their relatives when the slaughter house's purpose is to do the work. Why call relatives to help. Note "help" and not enjoy. Why work harder? Where dou you put the things you don't use?
2. Fear in change. Instead trying to know why hmong is converting, they just hate. I won't get into debating which religion is right or better but ill ask you this question. Why is your username YeejKoob?
3. Open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way and you will see. It doesn't matter how many examples I give, you won't see it.
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I disagree as well... History doesn't lie - Hmong don't fear change; if anything, Hmong change too often. That's our problem, we're always dancing to the tune of whomever welcomes us without ever defining ourselves in the world picture.
Here's what I mean:
1. We were arguably in the Middle East assimilated, then things got bad and we moved out.
2. We settled around China until things got bad and moved again.
3. Next stop, Laos and Thailand where our culture changed some more due to our new environment.
4. Now, we're in America and everyone says, "stope being Hmong now... You're in a better place." But when things go sour, we will up and leave again.
WE HAVE NO IDENTITY BECAUSE WE JUST WANT TO CHANGE AND NOT ESTABLISH OURSELVES!
Heavily agree! O0 The Hmong do not fear change at all. Finally in America we have elders and younger folks who are fighting harder than ever to be who they are. America has given us that opportunity. They just need the tools, resources, and proper channels to get a momentum going. However, they are interrupted by those who do want to change and assimilate. This is why I stated that it's not a lack of leadership but a lack of followers. There's no way a leader can even enforce his/her plans because s/he doesn't have the actual authority. It has to be the interest of each individual to uphold their desire to be Hmong.
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If they don't have time, they ask their relatives to do it. Why take away the time of their relatives when the slaughter house's purpose is to do the work. Why call relatives to help. Note "help" and not enjoy. Why work harder?
You know, some people actually enjoy doing this stuff. When relatives come over to help, it's like a get-together. They have a reason to come see each other, catch up, and have a sense of community and family. Just like how some people enjoy spending their whole morning and afternoon at church. Honestly, in my opinion that is a waste of a Sunday but I should STFU and let people do what they enjoy. You should let them be too.
Does it also kill you to know that Christianity is not a requirement for Hmong people to advance? The majority of Indian-American doctors, engineers, and business owners are Hindu. In the Chinese-American communities, many are non-religious (I suspect they practice ancestral worship folk religion) and we know that Chinese-Americans are one of the most successful groups.
Drinking that CMA juice much, eh?
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You know, some people actually enjoy doing this stuff. When relatives come over to help, it's like a get-together. They have a reason to come see each other, catch up, and have a sense of community and family. Just like how some people enjoy spending their whole morning and afternoon at church. Honestly, in my opinion that is a waste of a Sunday but I should STFU and let people do what they enjoy. You should let them be too.
Does it also kill you to know that Christianity is not a requirement for Hmong people to advance? The majority of Indian-American doctors, engineers, and business owners are Hindu. In the Chinese-American communities, many are non-religious (I suspect they practice ancestral worship folk religion) and we know that Chinese-Americans are one of the most successful groups.
Drinking that CMA juice much, eh?
Whoever said Christianity is required to advance? But instead of criticizing hmong Christians, why not just let them believe in what they like. Is the reason behind that fear? Why not take some of the good teachings from it to improve oneself. There are
good things from almost all religion that can help improve oneself.
About the slaughtering of animals, I'm not talking about the cooking and eating. It's the actual slaughter part. Where do you throw away the waste you don't want at your house?
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If you have ever read the chinese quasi-historical novel "A Romance of Three Kingdoms," there is a famous episode in there where an advisor helps one of the warlords striving to unite china visualize a home base, a territory, that he can consolidate his power in and launch his bid to unite china. The warlord follows the advice and creates one of the three kingdoms that will eventually compete for supremacy.
I personally believe we have a similar favorable circumstance and all the tools now to do the same for our own self-determination. However, we don't have the leadership or such far-sighted advisors. Every year, that window of opportunity to achieve self-determination is closing. What is even more sad is that not a single hmong leader has yet to see, to visualize, the situation so clearly.
I'm just curious what the opinion of everyone out there is on this subject.
Is it even possible? Is it too late? Is it too soon? How is it achieved? Where is it achieved?
Your questions and thoughts are for yesterday's world. Yesterday's world consists of a people uniting to form a nation of only its people. What we need are people who are preparing for tomorrow's world. Tomorrow's world will no longer worry about uniting only a people, but many peoples.
In tomorrow's world we forgive each other of our pasts, we see that preventing what already happened from happening again is more important than revenge. We don't worry about what China did to the ancient Hmong Kingdom because we want to build a world where we accept all race religion and creed. Where bigotry is shunned. Where we think more about how to solve problems as a human race, and not as a Hmong identity. Where we remember and honor our ancestors by not uniting the Hmong and making a Hmong nation, but by making a name for the Hmong when we make the new nation. The new nation that's meant for tomorrow's world, where we strive for all humankind and not your own kind. That's what we need, and that's where we're headed.
Tomorrow's doesn't happen overnight, it'll takes heaps of leaders to make it happen and so it's never really just one. It's not just one ethnic group that'll bring it to us but many. It's not just one person but many people who'll be needed. And if you're not ready for tomorrow's world that's not a problem because when it's here you'll see why it's what we needed and why it had to happen.
The people can only take so much, the world is only getting better. Just think, we went from the Romans and Chinese enslaving their conquered to a free society, or at least, getting close. Tomorrow's world is what we need.
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1. If they don't have time, they ask their relatives to do it. Why take away the time of their relatives when the slaughter house's purpose is to do the work. Why call relatives to help. Note "help" and not enjoy. Why work harder? Where dou you put the things you don't use?
2. Fear in change. Instead trying to know why hmong is converting, they just hate. I won't get into debating which religion is right or better but ill ask you this question. Why is your username YeejKoob?
3. Open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way and you will see. It doesn't matter how many examples I give, you won't see it.
1) Why shouldn't they ask their relatives to help out? One day their relatives will need their help as well... You don't think they enjoy one another's company then? ... And they simply discard the left overs, whether it's digging up some hole in the backyard, throw them in the bush at a farm, or put them on the curb for garbage trucks. Am I missing some enlightening thought from you here? Tell me if so.
2) It's you who don't get it or see it and think some "hate" for no reason. We fully recognize the assimilation christianity will cause. Furthermore it causes Hmong to fracture even more, blurr our history, etc. Have you not been paying attention to or open your eyes to see how Christian Hmongkeys don't allow their children to marry the Hmong, and vice versa? And if they do they want their kids to convert the new husband/wife? Families some times don't even attend one another's ceremonies, feasts, rituals anymore all because of these fake Jehovas's doctrines... Hmong do not fear change like your simple analysis would suggest. But we are against assimlation of which threatens our cultural self-preservation. Note the difference... Perhaps you as a young person don't recognize any of this, but culture is important in maintaining who we are. So of course we would "fear this change" that you are suggesting as it's suicidal.
Besides, it's not like the Christian Hmongkeys are any more successful than we Hmong are once they take up their new religion. I have multiple uncles who are millionaires./multi-millionaires. Two own supermarkets. One owns a high tech company. And they all still keep the Hmong ways. And some of my cousins and bros have Masters and PhD's in Ed and Science.
You don't know what Yeejkoob means?
3) Your examples, if that, are very vague. They can be misinterpreted so that's why I'm asking you to be specific.
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1) Why shouldn't they ask their relatives to help out? One day their relatives will need their help as well... You don't think they enjoy one another's company then? ... And they simply discard the left overs, whether it's digging up some hole in the backyard, throw them in the bush at a farm, or put them on the curb for garbage trucks. Am I missing some enlightening thought from you here? Tell me if so.
2) It's you who don't get it or see it and think some "hate" for no reason. We fully recognize the assimilation christianity will cause. Furthermore it causes Hmong to fracture even more, blurr our history, etc. Have you not been paying attention to or open your eyes to see how Christian Hmongkeys don't allow their children to marry the Hmong, and vice versa? And if they do they want their kids to convert the new husband/wife? Families some times don't even attend one another's ceremonies, feasts, rituals anymore all because of these fake Jehovas's doctrines... Hmong do not fear change like your simple analysis would suggest. But we are against assimlation of which threatens our cultural self-preservation. Note the difference... Perhaps you as a young person don't recognize any of this, but culture is important in maintaining who we are. So of course we would "fear this change" that you are suggesting as it's suicidal.
Besides, it's not like the Christian Hmongkeys are any more successful than we Hmong are once they take up their new religion. I have multiple uncles who are millionaires./multi-millionaires. Two own supermarkets. One owns a high tech company. And they all still keep the Hmong ways. And some of my cousins and bros have Masters and PhD's in Ed and Science.
You don't know what Yeejkoob means?
3) Your examples, if that, are very vague. They can be misinterpreted so that's why I'm asking you to be specific.
1. There's my point. Why do the hard work of digging a hole when you could just leave the waste at the slaughter house. :idiot2:
2. Open your eyes. You're the one hating on Christians. YeejKoob. Those letters aren't originally hmong. You said, "why take someone else religion." Well why take someone else's alphabet?
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1. There's my point. Why do the hard work of digging a hole when you could just leave the waste at the slaughter house. :idiot2:
2. Open your eyes. You're the one hating on Christians. YeejKoob. Those letters aren't originally hmong. You said, "why take someone else religion." Well why take someone else's alphabet?
1) That was your enlightening point?,,, You have failed to see what myself and others have just said to you. Besides, what's so "hard" about digging a hole to put waste in? Is it going to kill you doing this or something? So at best you lose 5 min, so what?,,, it's the process of doing the ceremony that's important here, not the 5 min "of hard work wasted."
2) Yes, some others did create the RPA Hmong writing system for us. And we are using it, temporarily. In time a better system will have to be designed. If you still don't get the point then I urge you to go back and read the other thread where we were defining what Hmong is. There is a difference between using somebody's created writing system, as we didn't officially have one of our own, and taking up somebody's religion, of which we laready have our own.
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1) That was your enlightening point?,,, You have failed to see what myself and others have just said to you. Besides, what's so "hard" about digging a hole to put waste in? Is it going to kill you doing this or something? So at best you lose 5 min, so what?,,, it's the process of doing the ceremony that's important here, not the 5 min "of hard work wasted."
2) Yes, some others did create the RPA Hmong writing system for us. And we are using it, temporarily. In time a better system will have to be designed. If you still don't get the point then I urge you to go back and read the other thread where we were defining what Hmong is. There is a difference between using somebody's created writing system, as we didn't officially have one of our own, and taking up somebody's religion, of which we laready have our own.
1. You failed to see the point. Like I said open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way. Why work harder. These days it's about working smart not hard.
2. What's the difference? It's both using someone else's. Why is it that you always think only the things you do that was borrowed from other cultures the only acceptable ones?
It is as I said. Hmong fear change, at least most of them. By your responses it is clear that you are one of them. You want to improve hmong but is scared to try new things to help improve it. You prefer doing things the hard ways even though there is a better and more efficient way in doing it. It all comes down to fear of change.
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Those are examples of why hmong fear change. That is why when there is a change in the place they are at, they run away.
No they're not; they're examples of Hmong not having the guts to be themselves. Instead, they assimilate or run away and assimilate to another culture.
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No they're not; they're examples of Hmong not having the guts to be themselves. Instead, they assimilate or run away and assimilate to another culture.
You just contradicted yourself. The area was changing so they were afraid and ran away.
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You just contradicted yourself. The area was changing so they were afraid and ran away.
No I didn't... It's a matter of perspective. Your whole argument is Hmong are afraid of change. So naturally, you assume they ran away to avoid change.
My argument is that they ran away to seek change. This is evident in changes in our language and culture over time. Our ancestors were always moving and assimilating within another predominant culture, without ever establishing their own. Hence, historians argue that at one time we had a written alphabet that resembles Chinese characters. Then we moved to SE Asia where our language changed more drastically due to Thai and Lao influence.
If we were truly resistant to change as you argue, then we would be the similar, if not the same, as the Hmong who left the Middle East or China. But as it turns out, we have changed beyond those cultures. Even here in the United States, many of our children don't understand Hmong culture and can't speak the language. This is the type of change I'm referring to; change on a socio-cultural level.
And now we have those who say we should abandon what it means to be Hmong and just assimilate... In fact, it doesn't need to be said; it's happening all around us. Our history speaks for itself: we are people who change and survive without ever having a sense of real identity in the world picture. That's hardly fear, more like necessity.
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No I didn't... It's a matter of perspective. Your whole argument is Hmong are afraid of change. So naturally, you assume they ran away to avoid change.
My argument is that they ran away to seek change. This is evident in changes in our language and culture over time. Our ancestors were always moving and assimilating within another predominant culture, without ever establishing their own. Hence, historians argue that at one time we had a written alphabet that resembles Chinese characters. Then we moved to SE Asia where our language changed more drastically due to Thai and Lao influence.
The area that they reside in changed that's why they moved to a different place. If they really wanted to seek change than they wouldn't be farmers for this long.
If we were truly resistant to change as you argue, then we would be the similar, if not the same, as the Hmong who left the Middle East or China. But as it turns , we have changed beyond those cultures. Even here in the United States, many of our children don't understand Hmong culture and can't speak the language. This is the type of change I'm referring to; change on a socio-cultural level.
I never said hmong was resistant to change.
And now we have those who say we should abandon what it means to be Hmong and just assimilate... In fact, it doesn't need to be said; it's happening all around us. Our history speaks for itself: we are people who change and survive without ever having a sense of real identity in the world picture. That's hardly fear, more like necessity.
This is an example of the fear that I'm referring to. The first sign of something different, you are afraid and call it assimilation, instead of teaching others in a different way that suits the society.
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Great men in history never self determine, they join an organization the rise to the top of it. A group of people can do the same too. Take a page from the Jews and emulate. They assimilate to every country they live in and rise to the top of it, but never lost their identity. Control the money and you control the politicians, control the politicians and you control the country. Like the Jews have American politicians by the balls.
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1. You failed to see the point. Like I said open your eyes and don't turn your head the other way. Why work harder. These days it's about working smart not hard.
2. What's the difference? It's both using someone else's. Why is it that you always think only the things you do that was borrowed from other cultures the only acceptable ones?
It is as I said. Hmong fear change, at least most of them. By your responses it is clear that you are one of them. You want to improve hmong but is scared to try new things to help improve it. You prefer doing things the hard ways even though there is a better and more efficient way in doing it. It all comes down to fear of change.
1) Why don't you give us a precise example of the type of animals slaughtered (pig? cow? chicken?) and what the purpose or occasion is and we'll be able to gauge the situation better if it's more efficient to do it at a slaughter house or the person's home. Is it for cultural ceremony or no?
2) The difference was explained to you already. Pay attention.
3) Sure, go ahead and change however you want then. Only a person with no integrity and principles will do so recklessly.
I already explained to you and gave examples as well that Hmong ppl who hold onto the Hmong ways are just as successful or even moreso than those who have taken up a foreign religion, like Christianity, yet you have blinders on and keep repeating your new found flash words "fear of change" over and over again. Why change recklessly and uphold somebody's culture and destroy yours in the process for?
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Short answer, No. Hmong people probably can not achieve self-determination in SE Asia.
Long answer...
1. Currently, Hmong people won't be recognized as significant enough to be self-determining. The population isn't there. The influence isn't there. On the global scale, the UN will certainly not support it. Hmong people are most likely viewed as tribal. This might change if the population becomes large enough and influential enough.
2. I don't believe this is an issue of leadership as it is an issue of cause. I like to believe that there are many Hmong individuals with strong leadership skills. However, the cause of self-determination doesn't seem strong enough for followers.
3. This isn't really an issue of religion.
4. Many people fear change; Hmong people included. Hmong have changed greatly over the years. Yet, many Hmong people reject these changes as well (look at the religious arguments). That being said, fear doesn't seem to be the driving factor for lack of self-determination either. If anything, it might be comfort. The generation of Hmong people who were born in America have no desire of a Hmong country. I don't want to speak for the Hmong people abroad, but they might also be more interested in just living life instead fighting and politics.
If you have ever read the chinese quasi-historical novel "A Romance of Three Kingdoms," there is a famous episode in there where an advisor helps one of the warlords striving to unite china visualize a home base, a territory, that he can consolidate his power in and launch his bid to unite china. The warlord follows the advice and creates one of the three kingdoms that will eventually compete for supremacy.
I personally believe we have a similar favorable circumstance and all the tools now to do the same for our own self-determination. However, we don't have the leadership or such far-sighted advisors. Every year, that window of opportunity to achieve self-determination is closing. What is even more sad is that not a single hmong leader has yet to see, to visualize, the situation so clearly.
I'm just curious what the opinion of everyone out there is on this subject.
Is it even possible? Is it too late? Is it too soon? How is it achieved? Where is it achieved?
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1) Why don't you give us a precise example of the type of animals slaughtered (pig? cow? chicken?) and what the purpose or occasion is and we'll be able to gauge the situation better if it's more efficient to do it at a slaughter house or the person's home. Is it for cultural ceremony or no?
2) The difference was explained to you already. Pay attention.
3) Sure, go ahead and change however you want then. Only a person with no integrity and principles will do so recklessly.
I already explained to you and gave examples as well that Hmong ppl who hold onto the Hmong ways are just as successful or even moreso than those who have taken up a foreign religion, like Christianity, yet you have blinders on and keep repeating your new found flash words "fear of change" over and over again. Why change recklessly and uphold somebody's culture and destroy yours in the process for?
You've just proven that you are one of those who fear change. Something new comes along and you get scared thinking it will destroy you. You've already given up on preserving the hmong culture.
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You've just proven that you are one of those who fear change. Something new comes along and you get scared thinking it will destroy you. You've already given up on preserving the hmong culture.
Define Hmong/Hmong culture... And with the changes however you feel like on a dime, flip flopping here and there, what exactly are you preserving then?
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Define Hmong/Hmong culture... And with the changes however you feel like on a dime, flip flopping here and there, what exactly are you preserving then?
YeejKoob13's definition of hmong culture:
Hmong can only slaughter animals at home.
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If you have ever read the chinese quasi-historical novel "A Romance of Three Kingdoms," there is a famous episode in there where an advisor helps one of the warlords striving to unite china visualize a home base, a territory, that he can consolidate his power in and launch his bid to unite china. The warlord follows the advice and creates one of the three kingdoms that will eventually compete for supremacy.
I personally believe we have a similar favorable circumstance and all the tools now to do the same for our own self-determination. However, we don't have the leadership or such far-sighted advisors. Every year, that window of opportunity to achieve self-determination is closing. What is even more sad is that not a single hmong leader has yet to see, to visualize, the situation so clearly.
I'm just curious what the opinion of everyone out there is on this subject.
Is it even possible? Is it too late? Is it too soon? How is it achieved? Where is it achieved?
It's too late! And definitely not possible, the best window of opportunity was back in NAM.
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It's too late! And definitely not possible, the best window of opportunity was back in NAM.
Uh oh. You're gonna have the Laos/French cock rider svantha coming after you now!
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Uh oh. You're gonna have the Laos/French cock rider svantha coming after you now!
Hail comrade HUNG TO LO. Welcome to this thread encouraging opinion and speculation; not facts. You will do well here.
/salute
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Anyone ever thought that maybe America didnt change who we are, but the fact that we are showing who we really are and our potential. Self determination? I took Native AMER. IND. and self determination is the biggest victory to any race or group of people. Free will and freedom is self-determination.
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This svantha guy is a joke. He makes a thread about Hmong self-determination. And yet, he's drinking that Fool-Aid thinking that Laotians were gonna give us a piece of that pie. Don't talk to me about self-determination and self-awareness when you don't have an objection interpretation of history. Without Vietnam's fight for independence, all of Southeast Asia (except Thailand) would still be sucking French cock to sleep every night.
This is from your own damn citation:
"During the French persecution of the Hmong, the Lao leadership had little say in the conflict and in fact had to side along with the French because they were under the French control..."
"Tou Lia Lyfoung noted that anyone over eighteen years old must pay seventy-five brass coins in tax per year, but the Lao Leadership, who did the tax collection, did not exactly follow the tax code. They instead collected twelve more brass coins, for a total of eighty-seven brass coins. At the time, mostly the Hmong were poor people, had no income, and could not afford to pay the tax. To avoid jail detention, some Hmong had to sell their children to pay tax..."
Yeah, Laos loved us! The French loved us more! So what this our path to self-determination; to side with the filthy Royalty that looked at us as nothing but a source of free tax money? Man, you are out of touch with reality. Get with the program. You're family lineage isn't part of the 1% of rich and powerful Hmongs who stroked the Laos king's cock while getting boned from the behind by the French. You and I, our families were nothing but farmer garbage ethnic who happened to be living on their kingdom soil.
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This svantha guy is a joke. He makes a thread about Hmong self-determination. And yet, he's drinking that Fool-Aid thinking that Laotians were gonna give us a piece of that pie. Don't talk to me about self-determination and self-awareness when you don't have an objection interpretation of history. Without Vietnam's fight for independence, all of Southeast Asia (except Thailand) would still be sucking French cock to sleep every night.
This is from your own damn citation:
"During the French persecution of the Hmong, the Lao leadership had little say in the conflict and in fact had to side along with the French because they were under the French control..."
"Tou Lia Lyfoung noted that anyone over eighteen years old must pay seventy-five brass coins in tax per year, but the Lao Leadership, who did the tax collection, did not exactly follow the tax code. They instead collected twelve more brass coins, for a total of eighty-seven brass coins. At the time, mostly the Hmong were poor people, had no income, and could not afford to pay the tax. To avoid jail detention, some Hmong had to sell their children to pay tax..."
Yeah, Laos loved us! The French loved us more! So what this our path to self-determination; to side with the filthy Royalty that looked at us as nothing but a source of free tax money? Man, you are out of touch with reality. Get with the program. You're family lineage isn't part of the 1% of rich and powerful Hmongs who stroked the Laos king's cock while getting boned from the behind by the French. You and I, our families were nothing but farmer garbage ethnic who happened to be living on their kingdom soil.
/hug
Ahhhhh it's ok, this is a thread welcoming opinion and speculation; even the opinions and speculations of dog-eating vietminh sympathizers and apologists.
XOXO
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How can a leader rise when no single Hmong person can define the core principles and beliefs of a Hmong? Everyday on PH, for example, there is a plethora of people with their own definition. And here we have academias along with others who seem to think having a bunch of new years is our biggest problem. :idiot2: When we look at groups like the Jews or even Americans in general, there are basic core principles that everybody can agree upon despite all their differences. Americans are big on patriotism/individualism/freedom just as the Jews are big on the mitzvahs. These things keep them united even when they are at war with one another. So what are the things that the Hmong people can agree upon despite their differences? What are the common things that they are willing to die for? When everybody can agree on these things is when a leader can rise.
I have said it before under another post. We don't have a country to reference. It is our cultural traditions that binds us and creates the essence of a country for our people. Anybody looking to do away with that will drive a wedge in the communities and turn us into strangers amongst each other. When we no longer share the same values, attitudes, and norms then we are strangers. We are still family when we hold the same expectations of each other. When we are no longer familiar with each other then might as well just let the name "Hmong" die out.
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/hug
Ahhhhh it's ok, this is a thread welcoming opinion and speculation; even the opinions and speculations of dog-eating vietminh sympathizers and apologists.
XOXO
I'm not one of your fruitcake friends so don't mingle like you and I drink beer on the weekends together, son. Your facetiousness doesn't impress anyone nor does it affect me so you can drop that. Instead of being a jovial fruitcake, why don't you actually address the subject. What are you? 18 years old? Pfft.
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I'm not one of your fruitcake friends so don't mingle like you and I drink beer on the weekends together, son. Your facetiousness doesn't impress anyone nor does it affect me so you can drop that. Instead of being a jovial fruitcake, why don't you actually address the subject. What are you? 18 years old? Pfft.
Well damn, if only you'd told me sooner you drank beer on the weekends. That's like an iwin button. That's like pulling a Chuck Norris. Everybody knows you don't mess with a guy who drinks beer on the weekends or Chuck Norris.
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you're preaching about jumping from A's to Z w/out first bridging A and B how is that even possible? going by your definition, achieving a tomorrows world is first pillar by achieving yesterdays world.
If it's anything I learned in life so far, it's this: No one will understand what we mean unless they're at the same level. Why? Told people to invest in stocks after the economy dropped in Fall 2008 but they didn't, they wanted to make monthly payments on the "brand new" cars. The ones who listened made record profits on bank stocks. You should check the price of JP Morgan then, and then today. What does this have anything to do with my previous post? People who can't understand what I said in my original post will never have the capacity to understand what I just said about stocks. The ones who do are the ones who can make the world a better place, not because they listen, but because they actually get it. I'll stop there.
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We have a sense of self-determination, we just don't have a collective sense of self-determination
My post being ignored is a good example of why we might not be able to achieve self-determination. We like to point our fingers and blame trivial matters, while ignoring the real problem. We all want self-determination, we all want to end up at the same end result. Only problem is we don't want to make that trip together.
Other ethnics have achieved independence because they can rally behind a person, or an ideology. Hmongs, we have never been able to rally behind any one person or ideology. We have good leaders and good ideas. Problem is that these leaders and ideas can't come together. One leader has to be better than the other, or one idea has to be better than the other.
We still have this barbaric notion of trying to be better than the rest. However, one cannot be better than the rest, if there is no "the rest" behind that individual. We are constantly trying to be the "first" at everything, or being the "only" at something else.
Just take a glimpse into the Hmong community, it is dotted with exclamations of being the "first" or being the "only". One has to remember, the "first" and "only" implies only one, one individual. Although we claim it is for the Hmong, it is only for one.
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Kuv xab hais tias ua ntev GVP, peb rooj Hmong ua luam nqe xwb. Npog saib tsis tau peb hmong li. Yog tsis muaj GVP, pom yuav muaj peb hnus no. In order to understand the core principle, you need to understand how other groups such as the Native Americans were able to have their own self determination? Native Americans are now their own people, their own group, their own sovereignty at the cost of many of their dear leaders. Without the leaders, a group of people will be scatter to ashes. When GVP was here, the Hmongs were able to accomplish so much with his presence. Now that our icon is gone, let the new blood of positve influences flourish where ever hmongs may resign.
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I'm guessing it is "Laos" where this "SEAsia self-determination" is being touted?
Fact of the matter is, Laos itself and it's citizens -- specifically Laotians -- cannot even "self-determine" its own state of affairs; therefore it is ludicrous and delusional to assume or believe a minority group such as the Hmong-Lao can or will have any "self-determination" in SEAsia - Laos, with or without the aid of foreign resources -- US-Hmong specifically.
Speak with and ask any highly or semi-educated Hmong-Lao and they, he and/or she, will tell you "self-determination" in SEAsia is null and void. As a matter of fact, that applies to the neighboring countries as well such as Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, and Thailand.
I still do not quite understand why Hmong in general have such a huge affinity for Laos. True, our grandparents and parents are Lao-refugees, but beyond that I really see no logic, rationale, or meaningful purpose to have anything to do with Laos -- self-determination or not.
And I'll quote a Hmong leader, not his exact words but close enough, "Until the communist regime acknowledges the importance of humanitarian rights and equality and work towards that effort, then we -- Hmong, Lao, and SEA-US citizens, are not ready to sit down at the table and shake hands with them." There's the answer to "self-determination" within the 21st century.
Ua tsaug ... ;)