PebHmong Discussion Forum

General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Wedding Rituals & Customs => Topic started by: lilly on August 15, 2013, 05:16:59 PM

Title: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 15, 2013, 05:16:59 PM
Chidorix0x and whomever knows the ins and outs of hmong rituals,

Could you please educate us on the different roles people play in Hmong weddings?  Also, what are the procedures/processes/standard practices from the moment the bride is taken to the groom's home (lwm qaib) to the day they go back to her parents' house for the wedding to the day they return home to the groom's family?

What is the role of the mejkoob? 

What does the person doing the lwm qaib usually say as he waves the chicken over the bride and/or groom?  Does the lwm qaib person have to be a male?  Do you have to give money to the bride's family when you send men to fij xo?  Are there drinking involved at the fij xo? 

At the end of the wedding the bride's family tells the bride to not look back.  What happens if she looks back? 

What is the significance of the black umbrella?

Etc.

Thank you so much!

Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Like I've pointed out in the other thread, Google is your friend. It's much faster to get the information by asking Google too. Lots of resources out there ( text and video ), and it can easily answer your "not look back" and "black umbrella" questions.

Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 19, 2013, 10:33:20 PM
/\/\/\ ...  why don't you answer all of Lilly's question with your Google-based information then?

Let's see how much you can Google --  O0

(Lilly, since this person is so Google-trenched, alluding it to be an "oracle", perhaps they will provide you will all the information you are seeking.  I'm out ...    8)  And await -- perhaps to learn something I did not know, per Google.)

Ua tsaug ...  :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 20, 2013, 12:13:08 AM
/\/\/\ ...  why don't you answer all of Lilly's question with your Google-based information then?

Let's see how much you can Google --  O0


Because a person can gain more by learning to do it him/herself. Not just learning how to be more resourceful but also discovering how easy it is access the available information on the WWW regarding Hmong weddings and pretty much anything else with just a click of the mouse.
Yes, it's that easy, just ask Google.

Much better than hearing crickets since August 15th when the inquiry was created ...

Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 20, 2013, 12:52:07 AM
/\/\/\  ...  says the squawking do-do bird.

Why not answer Lilly's inquiry with your WWW mumbo-jumbo  ...   O0
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 20, 2013, 09:36:58 AM
Chidorix0x, please don't mind theking.  I would really like it if you do the answering instead of google.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 20, 2013, 09:53:50 AM
/\/\/\  ...  says the squawking do-do bird.

Why not answer Lilly's inquiry with your WWW mumbo-jumbo  ...   O0

Says the "Ruam" crickets ...I already answered that question "Clitorix0x.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 20, 2013, 09:57:13 AM
Chidorix0x, please don't mind theking.  I would really like it if you do the answering instead of google.  Thank you.

Now is your chance Chi, better not let the woman listen to crickets for days ... ;D
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 20, 2013, 02:40:00 PM
/\/\/\  ...  ( :D)

For a squawker who claims that Hmong culture/custom is primitive and backwards, they yet turn to and rely on Google/WWW for whatever mediocrity they can scavage  ...  :2funny:

Oh come on, surely your Google/WWW can entertain Lilly -- so squawk away.

(We all are interested to know what "mediocrity" you can scavage from Google/WWW  ...   O0)

Ua tsaug  ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 20, 2013, 02:56:28 PM
/\/\/\  ...  ( :D)

For a squawker who claims that Hmong culture/custom is primitive and backwards, they yet turn to and rely on Google/WWW for whatever mediocrity they can scavage  ...  :2funny:

Oh come on, surely your Google/WWW can entertain Lilly -- so squawk away.

(We all are interested to know what "mediocrity" you can scavage from Google/WWW  ...   O0)

Ua tsaug  ...   :)

Yep, still just cricket sounds from Mr.  "vo doo"  ;D. And yes, I can because it's just a mouse click away but she's not asking me to do it for her.

The inquiring was requested for several days, and nothing but cricket sounds, and now that I showed her a way to get the answers to her questions, mr. "vo doo" can't handle it. Hey, she specifically asked for you, NOT me. I was just wondering why the cricket sounds for several days so I showed her another avenue. Nothing wrong with that FU.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: jetter on August 20, 2013, 03:05:56 PM
Google is your best friend

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=hmong+wedding+process (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=hmong+wedding+process)

Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 20, 2013, 05:51:38 PM
Google is your best friend

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=hmong+wedding+process (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=hmong+wedding+process)



Thank you, Jetter!!!

Found this thread that led back to PH.  Hahaha!!!

http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?topic=126247.0 (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?topic=126247.0)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 20, 2013, 09:20:12 PM
Google is your best friend

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=hmong+wedding+process (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=hmong+wedding+process)



Thank you, Jetter!!!

Found this thread that led back to PH.  Hahaha!!!

http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?topic=126247.0 (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?topic=126247.0)

Bingo  O0! If you would to watch it in video form, there are some good vids on YouTube as well (if it's still there) that teach about the stuff in our culture. With Google, it's just a click away, instead of waiting for days ... O0
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 21, 2013, 10:28:23 AM
Lilly, ( :))

I hope your Google/WWW has ample info that covers all the procedures, roles, and variants you are looking for, such as the "lwm qaij thiab cov lus ntuas ntawd" including "fi xov", not to mention that there are, in fact, three well-known and historically practiced traditional Hmong wedding  ...   O0  (Note:  Today, there is actually a fourth sort of speak, and one of the traditional three is rarely practiced, nor used nowadays in the West to my knowledge.)

From some of the WWW stuff I have see, there is no mention of "Niam Txiv Cob Txheeb", "Nws Tij Cob Txeeb", and "Nws Npawg Cob Txheeb" etc., or what their roles are -- a good explanation.  (Of course you can always WWW search those key words and see what you get.)  Also, most WWW stuff mainly just cover the overall process of the wedding -- general information.  If that is all you are looking for then you are set.  If not, good luck spending time "clicking your mouse"  ...   :-\ .  Perhaps Google/WWW will cover and clarify them for you  ...   O0  (Hmmm, jw, if WWW covers a "Green" Hmong wedding?  Fyi, Green is not the same as White -- rather different believe it or not,  ;D)

Ua tsaug ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 21, 2013, 10:58:18 AM
Lilly, ( :))

I hope your Google/WWW has ample info that covers all the procedures, roles, and variants you are looking for, such as the "lwm qaij thiab cov lus ntuas ntawd" including "fi xov", not to mention that there are, in fact, three well-known and historically practiced traditional Hmong wedding  ...   O0  (Note:  Today, there is actually a fourth sort of speak, and one of the traditional three is rarely practiced, nor used nowadays in the West to my knowledge.)

From some of the WWW stuff I have see, there is no mention of "Niam Txiv Cob Txheeb", "Nws Tij Cob Txeeb", and "Nws Npawg Cob Txheeb" etc., or what their roles are -- a good explanation.  (Of course you can always WWW search those key words and see what you get.)  Also, most WWW stuff mainly just cover the overall process of the wedding -- general information.  If that is all you are looking for then you are set.  If not, good luck spending time "clicking your mouse"  ...   :-\ .  Perhaps Google/WWW will cover and clarify them for you  ...   O0  (Hmmm, jw, if WWW covers a "Green" Hmong wedding?  Fyi, Green is not the same as White -- rather different believe it or not,  ;D)

Ua tsaug ...   :)

Chidorix0x, that is why I want "you" to explain the process.  Please don't mind other people who tell me to go google it.  No other explanation is better than yours.  You could just pm it to me if you want to.  Please?  Thank you.   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 21, 2013, 12:57:13 PM
Lilly, ( :))

Do not lose "hope".  As for those primitive, backwards, and caveman like antics, they mean nothing except to validate a lack of cultural awareness, knowledge, and insight of and about Hmong-centric ceremony/practices -- being so ill-informed, if not ignorant; thus they have no choice but to defer to Google/WWW for whatever "general info" it can offer  ...   ;D

What is "hilarious" is that despite the caveman antics, the instigator(s) has failed to draft anything of any relevance except to squawk incessantly - lol.

I will "chime" in whenever, or after Google/WWW has had ample time to squawk - lol  ...   O0 .

Ua tsaug ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 27, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
It is no "surprise" the squawking Google/WWW aficionados have embraced the brother/sister-hood of crickets,  :2funny:, and have all but blossomed into mimes.

Oh well, perhaps it is time to provide Lilly with the information she had inquired about since the squawkers squawked and squawked but nadda, zip, zero, nothing relevant has been publicized, or explained etc. -- cept links, blah blah blah.

Before elaborating on a traditional Hmong wedding, let us answer some of Lilly's question.

What is the role of the mejkoob?

The "mejkoob", two men per each side - the groom's and bride's -, are "mediators" who conduct and at times help to resolve issues that may arise, during and throughout, the entirety of a traditional Hmong wedding ceremony.  Two "mejkoob" are used per side for all White Hmong, "cov Hmoob Dawb" -- their customs.  Only one "mejkoob" per side is used among the Green Hmong, "cov Moob Leeg/Lees/Ntsuab" -- their customs.  (Note: There are some nuisances and variants between the Green and White Hmong wedding ceremony but that is beyond this discussion.  And yes, Green and White Hmong can marry one another despite these nuisances and variants.)

Does the lwm qaib person have to be a male?  Do you have to give money to the bride's family when you send men to fij xo?  Are there drinking involved at the fij xo?

The "lwm qaib" person does not have to be a male, but the norm - that is 9.5/10 times - it is indeed a male.  However, a female can do it also.  There is no Hmong rule or "traditional mandate" that says a woman cannot, provide she knows what to say during the blessing. 

Yes, during a "fi xov" or "fij xo", money and cigarettes are needed and is required.  The incremental amount are:  1. $20 for the person receiving the message - "tus txais xov" - directly given to him 2. $20 is the message - "thoob lub xo" - it's tied within one of the knots of the striped ribbon, "txoj siv ceeb", and finally 3. $60 towards or for the family's relatives referred to as - "dej txhuv tsis paub faib hno" - it's tied within the other or second knot of the striped ribbon.  (Note:  Some Hmong tie 3-knots, the third being the $20 of #1, but the majority only tie 2-knots.)  And the cigarettes are obviously for "tsab yeeb" -- covered later.

No, there is no drinking during a "fi xov", at least to my knowledge and per all the ones I have witnessed and/or participated in.  If there is any drinking whatsoever, it is probably just for "fun", or gestures of friendship/acquaintances.  Alcohol/drinking is definitely not part of the "fi xov" ceremony.  Bowing (kowtow) definitely is though,  O0 -- covered later.

At the end of the wedding the bride's family tells the bride to not look back.  What happens if she looks back?

There is no known explanation/problem, that I know of or have heard if she looks back, but the belief is that she is beginning a "new life" as a woman, wife, and mother to be; therefore she is leaving behind her "previous life" of a girl, daughter, and sister thus she should be looking forward and towards her new family - hers and her husband's future - not back at or to her past.  That's it more or less.  Anything else besides this, I have never heard or do not know.

What is the significance of the black umbrella?

The black umbrella, first and foremost, represents the "girl to be wed" - "tus nkauj nyab".  And secondly, it is symbolic and representative of a traditional "Hmong wedding" - meaning that when anyone sees the "black umbrella tied with a striped cloth" around it, they know a wedding is going on.  (There is a folklore or "dab neeg" about this, but I cannot remember it ...  :()  Only solid colored umbrella should be used; thus red, yellow, orange, and/or any other bright colors are a no-no -- at least that is the practice and norm.

Now that most questions have been answered, let us look at a traditional Hmong wedding -- its process from start to end -- the very moment a guy decides he wants to marry his girlfriend, High School/College sweetheart, or Yawm Saub/God forbid a mysterious hot lady/girl he met at the Hmong New Year, soccer tournament, bar, club, house party etc..

That said, be aware of the fact that there are actually five-well-known traditional Hmong wedding ceremonies and/or practices.  (This is something Google/WWW squawkers will most likely "NOT" find any information on or about, especially regarding the process, procedures, and requirements/expectations.)  Of the five, the most popular and widely practiced in the West - namely the USA - is in fact "tshoob tog qw", meaning "marriage among singles", or young couples, adolescents, and/or "virgins" -- hopefully, :-X.

The five traditional Hmong weddings are:
1.  Marriage among singles - "tshoob tog qw" == most widely practiced in the West/USA
2.  Bride-napping or Bride-kidnapping - "tshoob zij" == illegal in the West/USA, though still "ok" in SEAsia
3.  Pre-arranged or Prior Engagement (Hmong do have pre-arranged marriages, but I am using it loosely here.) - "nqis tsev hais" == "ok" in the West/USA and SE Asia, though extremely rare here/USA (Note: It can also be the most "expensive".  Just depends on the bride's family or the groom's financial and social status. Some brides have been "free" because the groom is from a well-known, respected, and affluent family line,  O0)
4.  Divorcee - "tshoob poj nrauj" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
5.  Widows - "tshoob poj ntsuam" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
*** 6.  Eloping and/or Leaving Together - "tsis ua tshoob" == late 20th Century and 21st Century phenomenon, most popular in the West/USA (No comment - tsis raws Hmoob kev cai)

NO, I will not be elaborate on the other 4 traditional Hmong weddings and/or practices.  (Let the Google/WWW squawkers "mouse click" to their hearts' desire in this regard  ...   :2funny:)

... to be continued ... ( :))
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 27, 2013, 02:51:51 PM
As always, thank you so much, Chidorix0x!  I appreciate all the information given so far.  I anxiously await the continuation.  :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 27, 2013, 02:54:07 PM
Lilly, ( :))

Do not lose "hope".  As for those primitive, backwards, and caveman like antics, they mean nothing except to validate a lack of cultural awareness, knowledge, and insight of and about Hmong-centric ceremony/practices -- being so ill-informed, if not ignorant; thus they have no choice but to defer to Google/WWW for whatever "general info" it can offer  ...   ;D

What is "hilarious" is that despite the caveman antics, the instigator(s) has failed to draft anything of any relevance except to squawk incessantly - lol.

I will "chime" in whenever, or after Google/WWW has had ample time to squawk - lol  ...   O0 .

Ua tsaug ...   :)

Says Mr. "Ruam" that continues to fail at reading comp. ;D
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: jetter on August 27, 2013, 03:38:25 PM
you just have to alter your keywords to find what you want.  For example if you wanted to know the intricate details of the whole process you might want to try the following:

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=txheej+txheem+tshoob+kos&revid=-1 (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=txheej+txheem+tshoob+kos&revid=-1)

or

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=kab+tshoob+kev+kos&spell=1 (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=kab+tshoob+kev+kos&spell=1)

or

http://scoler927.free.fr/hmoobkabliskevcaithiabkevntseeg/kev_cai_txheej_txheem_tshoob_kos__cawv__kaus__kawm_421.htm (http://scoler927.free.fr/hmoobkabliskevcaithiabkevntseeg/kev_cai_txheej_txheem_tshoob_kos__cawv__kaus__kawm_421.htm)

or

http://lennon.csufresno.edu/~vl059/tshoobkos.htm (http://lennon.csufresno.edu/~vl059/tshoobkos.htm)

What is the role of the mejkoob?
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+meaning+role+of+mej+koob (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+meaning+role+of+mej+koob)


What is the significance of the black umbrella?
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+meaning+of+black+umbrella (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+meaning+of+black+umbrella)


Does the lwm qaib person have to be a male?  Do you have to give money to the bride's family when you send men to fij xo?  Are there drinking involved at the fij xo?
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding++lwm+qaib+male+female (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding++lwm+qaib+male+female)

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+fi+xov++requirements (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+fi+xov++requirements)


At the end of the wedding the bride's family tells the bride to not look back.  What happens if she looks back?
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+bride+not+look+back (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+wedding+bride+not+look+back)

 6.  Eloping and/or Leaving Together - "tsis ua tshoob" == late 20th Century and 21st Century phenomenon, most popular in the West/USA
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+couple+living+together+no+wedding (https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=kaj+tshoob+kev+kov&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fp=595aa89e80dad263&q=hmong+couple+living+together+no+wedding)

the list goes on and on and on covering different topics.  There's even books written in much more detail than what's posted here and it's written before the internet.

The internet has been out for a very long time and the information is pretty huge and this is not a new topic that no one knows about.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 27, 2013, 03:55:49 PM
jetter, ( :2funny:  ...   :idiot2:)

Have you tried to click on your Google/WWW search links -- LMAO!  Obviously not!  (Hint:  Some of the links comes right back to this "THREAD" - LMAO! -  :idiot2:  ...   :2funny:)

And I will go out on a limb and say there is "NO" official book, document, or publication I know of, except for one which I have not had the pleasure of reading through, that remotely covers any details regarding a traditional Hmong wedding.  As a matter of fact, all the Google/WWW/internet including books and publication I have seen and read through just goes over the general synopsis/steps.  And that information is by no means "detailed" or of any "detail" whatsoever.  But for all the Google/WWW squawkers, it is probably "gold" - :2funny: - being so ill-informed, ignorant, and likely clueless.

Take this Google/WWW squawker link for example, per jetter's search/link taken from above: http://ahmongwoman.com/2011/10/08/traditional-hmong-weddings-and-marriages/ (http://ahmongwoman.com/2011/10/08/traditional-hmong-weddings-and-marriages/) .  It says, and I quote: "There are 3 different ways a couple can initiate a wedding." --  :2funny:  ...   :idiot2: (Fact is, there a 5, which have been listed,  O0 .  Clearly, this article was written by someone who has little to no intimate knowledge about traditional Hmong weddings except generalization and whatever "general information" they could Google/WWW or whatever.  Funny stuff - fawking hilarious - if you read the article etc., provided you know the facts versus Google/WWW mumbo-jumbo.)

Ua tsaug ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 27, 2013, 06:50:56 PM
jetter, ( :2funny:  ...   :idiot2:)

Have you tried to click on your Google/WWW search links -- LMAO!  Obviously not!  (Hint:  Some of the links comes right back to this "THREAD" - LMAO! -  :idiot2:  ...   :2funny:)

Then the stuff you posted on this "THREAD" must also be posted by a person that is "ill-informed, ignorant, and likely clueless" and can only provide "general" information since Google found it ::), because according to you, that's pretty much what Google is good for ...

I rather get my information from people that have actually published/produced resources easily accessible in the Google realm then listen to crickets for days from people that can't answer shit and needed that time to do their own research (perhaps, even utilizing Google along the way  ;D) if I was researching for something. Yeah, the stuff available on Google is that good because many of the people that provided those information have legit knowledge like Tougeu Leepalao. I can guarantee you that legit knowledgeable people like him won't need days of stalling or to do research to answer lilly's inquiry  O0.

As I've said, she brought up your name in the initial inquiry and for days, nothing but cricket sounds then I showed her another way of getting the information needed faster, you can't handle it like a 1 y.o. that just gotten his pacifier taken away abruptly. What took you so long then? Obviously, you don't have the information readily available and needed to do your own research. Perhaps even using the internet i.e., Google to get the information  ;D.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 27, 2013, 11:43:07 PM
 :2funny:  ...  Google/WWW squawkers  ...   :idiot2:

Hint:  "As for those primitive, backwards, and caveman like antics, they mean nothing except to validate a lack of cultural awareness, knowledge, and insight of and about Hmong-centric ceremony/practices -- being so ill-informed, if not ignorant; thus they have no choice but to defer to Google/WWW for whatever "general info" it can offer ... ;D

What is "hilarious" is that despite the caveman antics, the instigator(s) has failed to draft anything of any relevance except to squawk incessantly - lol.

I will "chime" in whenever, or after Google/WWW has had ample time to squawk - lol,  O0.

Ua tsaug ...   :)"

Why don't you Google/WWW squawkers "mouse click" to your heart's content and explain to Lilly and the rest of us about these then -- its process, procedures, resolution, etc..

2.  Bride-napping or Bride-kidnapping - "tshoob zij" == illegal in the West/USA, though still "ok" in SEAsia
3.  Pre-arranged or Prior Engagement (Hmong do have pre-arranged marriages, but I am using it loosely here.) - "nqis tsev hais" == "ok" in the West/USA and SE Asia, though extremely rare here/USA (Note: It can also be the most "expensive".  Just depends on the bride's family or the groom's financial and social status. Some brides have been "free" because the groom is from a well-known, respected, and affluent family line,  O0)
4.  Divorcee - "tshoob poj nrauj" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
5.  Widows - "tshoob poj ntsuam" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
*** 6.  Eloping and/or Leaving Together - "tsis ua tshoob" == late 20th Century and 21st Century phenomenon, most popular in the West/USA (No comment - tsis raws Hmoob kev cai)

We/I eagerly await all your "mouse clicking" links, key word searches, publication, articles, and any in-depth research, especially from Google/WWW and books, even from Tougeu Leepalao -- his books, videos, or whatever you can find via Google/WWW, or the library for that matter ...   :2funny:  (And can we/I get a summary, preferably detailed report, of your findings versus random internet links that goes in circles, which ultimately ends back here -- what I have posted/published ...  ;D  ...   O0)

Ua tsaug ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 28, 2013, 01:57:44 AM
Says Mr. "Ruam" that continues to fail at reading comp. yet again.  ;D
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 28, 2013, 02:33:06 AM


What is "hilarious" is that despite the caveman antics, the instigator(s) has failed to draft anything of any relevance except to squawk incessantly - lol.



Another thing to add: Do you even know what an "instigator" is? If not, read post #3 and #5 of this thread and you shall receive your answer.

Those two posts combined with your other insult posts on this thread = a kid that's looking for trouble but when he gets punched in the mouth, he goes running to his mommy and whine and cry that the other person started.

Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong showing another person a much faster resource especially after it's been days. If you have a problem with that, YOU are the problem as you have days to answer the inquiry but didn't then cried about it after the fact.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 28, 2013, 11:42:48 AM
 :2funny:  ...  says those Google/WWW squawkers " ...  those primitive, backwards, and caveman like antics, they mean nothing except to validate a lack of cultural awareness, knowledge, and insight of and about Hmong-centric ceremony/practices -- being so ill-informed, if not ignorant; thus they have no choice but to defer to Google/WWW for whatever "general info" it can offer ... "  ...   :idiot2:  ...   ::)

We/I await the Google/WWW squawkers report -- "mouse clicking", "key word searches", "showing another person a much faster resource(s)" -- in regards to the list below ...   8)  (We'll keep it simple, just choose "one" and report back to us ok Google/WWW squawkers.  We want to know what your Google/WWW squawking has to offer ...   :D  ...   :))

2.  Bride-napping or Bride-kidnapping - "tshoob zij" == illegal in the West/USA, though still "ok" in SEAsia
3.  Pre-arranged or Prior Engagement (Hmong do have pre-arranged marriages, but I am using it loosely here.) - "nqis tsev hais" == "ok" in the West/USA and SE Asia, though extremely rare here/USA (Note: It can also be the most "expensive".  Just depends on the bride's family or the groom's financial and social status. Some brides have been "free" because the groom is from a well-known, respected, and affluent family line,  O0)
4.  Divorcee - "tshoob poj nrauj" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
5.  Widows - "tshoob poj ntsuam" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
*** 6.  Eloping and/or Leaving Together - "tsis ua tshoob" == late 20th Century and 21st Century phenomenon, most popular in the West/USA (No comment - tsis raws Hmoob kev cai)

Ua tsaug ...   :)

(Note:  At least Google/WWW is/was kind enough to provide the lot of you "squawkers" some general info.  It is better than nothing, as "ignorance is bliss.")

I will "chime" in whenever, or after Google/WWW has had ample time to squawk  - lol,  O0.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 28, 2013, 11:56:18 AM
Ugh, Chidorix0x... but but... I don't want to wait.  I want your knowledge and not googles/WWW's.  Please don't mind those people... I prefer your more thorough info to the "general" google/www's info.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 28, 2013, 12:08:13 PM
Ugh, Chidorix0x... but but... I don't want to wait.  I want your knowledge and not googles/WWW's.  Please don't mind those people... I prefer your more thorough info to the "general" google/www's info.  Thank you.

Patience  ...   :)  ...   8)

I will "chime" in whenever, or after Google/WWW has had ample time to squawk    - lol,  O0.

(Note:  Starting tomorrow, I will be super busy - muaj kwv tij ua noj ua haus - so I may not be able to continue until early next week, which by the way will give Google/WWW squawkers plenty of time to "mouse click", "key word searches", "showing another person a much faster resource(s)", and hopefully provide us with their report(s) --   :2funny:)

I for one want to see this report(s), as I am always open to anything Google/WWW squawkers can provide that I do not know or already know and then some ...  8)

Ua tsaug ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 28, 2013, 12:12:20 PM
Patience  ...   :)  ...   8)

I will "chime" in whenever, or after Google/WWW has had ample time to squawk    - lol,  O0.

(Note:  Starting tomorrow, I will be super busy - muaj kwv tij ua noj ua haus - so I may not be able to continue until early next week, which by the way will give Google/WWW squawkers plenty of time to "mouse click", "key word searches", "showing another person a much faster resource(s)", and hopefully provide us with their report(s) --   :2funny:)

I for one want to see this report(s), as I am always open to anything Google/WWW squawkers can provide that I do not know or already know and then some ...  8)

Ua tsaug ...   :)

OK.  I'll wait...
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 28, 2013, 03:13:56 PM

(Note:  At least Google/WWW is/was kind enough to provide the lot of you "squawkers" some general info.  It is better than nothing, as "ignorance is bliss.")

Yeah like the "general" info you posted on this thread since Google was "kind enough" to provide it.  ;D
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 28, 2013, 09:03:48 PM
Yeah like the "general" info you posted on this thread since Google was "kind enough" to provide it.  ;D

Google/WWW squawker(s) ...  can you at least provide some "general info" regarding these: ( :2funny:)

2.  Bride-napping or Bride-kidnapping - "tshoob zij" == illegal in the West/USA, though still "ok" in SEAsia
3.  Pre-arranged or Prior Engagement (Hmong do have pre-arranged marriages, but I am using it loosely here.) - "nqis tsev hais" == "ok" in the West/USA and SE Asia, though extremely rare here/USA (Note: It can also be the most "expensive".  Just depends on the bride's family or the groom's financial and social status. Some brides have been "free" because the groom is from a well-known, respected, and affluent family line,  O0)
4.  Divorcee - "tshoob poj nrauj" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
5.  Widows - "tshoob poj ntsuam" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
*** 6.  Eloping and/or Leaving Together - "tsis ua tshoob" == late 20th Century and 21st Century phenomenon, most popular in the West/USA (No comment - tsis raws Hmoob kev cai)

We/I await the Google/WWW squawker(s) report -- "mouse clicking", "key word searches", "showing another person a much faster resource(s)" -- in regards to the list above ...   8)  (We'll keep it simple, just choose "one" and report back to us ok Google/WWW squawkers.  We want to know what your Google/WWW squawking has to offer -- "general info" ...   :D  ...   :))

Ua tsaug ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on August 28, 2013, 10:38:10 PM
Google/WWW squawker(s) ...  can you at least provide some "general info" regarding these: ( :2funny:)

Mr. Late for days Cricket sounds then gets his feelings hurt after the fact, can you at least comprehend simple text?  ;D
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 28, 2013, 11:40:00 PM
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... for and per Lilly's inquiry -- mainly because she seems genuinely interested, and two, to help educate Google/WWW squawker(s), including others,  O0 .  Bare in mind, all of the steps and procedures are meant to be aligned with what is practiced traditionally, in its most acceptable and least troublesome way - historically and presently - more or less, from the start; the moment a guy wants to get married to his girlfriend/soul mate, to the end; the conclusion of the wedding ceremony -- not at the in-laws' house, but back at his, the groom's house.  And these steps or procedures, one will very unlikely find readily available via Google/WWW or any published work:  books, articles, and/or media out there to date.  (At least I have not seen nor come across any in all of my own personal research and info gathering.)

(Lilly, just so you know, I will try to be as thorough as possible despite all of the "general info" one may find peppered and scattered throughout the internet like confetti.  That said, unfortunately, all of the "verbal exchanges, phrases, and blessings" said during and throughout the wedding will not and/or cannot be provided.  There is just way too much.  More so, there are multiple variants to warrant a single entry or publication, as if it was the only way or the right way, thus it is best avoided.  But the most important verbiage will be made available, per my personal opinion ...  :))

The very first thing a guy needs to do towards his traditional Hmong wedding before he goes to get his girlfriend/soul mate and bring her home is to let his parents know.  Why?  For several obvious reasons.  They are, in no particular order:  1) so the parents know and can make preparations; like have someone to bless them - "lwm qaib" - upon their arrival if the father/mother does not know how, and more so that two men are available to go inform/send the message - "mus fi xov" 2) if the girl is "ok" - "zoo nyab" - or from a reputable/good family 3) the time/day/date is appropriate to go and get the young lady (this is a Hmong belief which I won't elaborate on).  There are others too, but these three are the main key points.

... to be continued.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 29, 2013, 09:13:06 AM
Thank you.  Waiting for continuation.. .   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: Vandal Savage on August 29, 2013, 09:19:36 AM
Chi's pretty spot on.  I would ramble on what he just said, but that'll be redundant. 
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: VIM on August 29, 2013, 11:29:18 AM
Here's a role Hmong men played back in the days....

(http://i42.tinypic.com/jkgm0g.jpg)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on August 29, 2013, 10:31:05 PM
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... (fyi - VIM, your version is not quite right, as Hmong men do not surprise the girl/lady when they go "mus zij tshoob" -- unbeknownst or unexpectedly.  More times than not, the girl/lady already knows the man or suitor and that they will be bride-napped/kidnapped ...  :))

Once the young man has informed his parents' of his intentions, and the preparations are ready, he can proceed to go and acquire the girl/lady.  It is best he brings her home - to his house or an immediate uncle/relative if she lives out of town and/or out of state - before sunset, preferably by noon.  (Note:  A Hmong belief is that, during any time the girl/lady is being acquired, if an accident or "bad omen" occurs such as seeing an anomaly or similar -- like an animal crossing his path etc., then the acquisition should be postponed and set for another day or later date.  Basically, make sure nothing unusual or out of the ordinary occurs during and throughout this entire process to the point where the girl actually arrives at the home or desired destination.)

Immediately upon arriving at the home or desired destination, "DO NOT" go inside.  Wait at the doorstep until the father or uncle is ready to receive you -- the son and his bride.  Once the father/uncle opens the door, kneel down -- the son and his bride -- the bride to his left hand side.  The father/uncle will then begin the "lwm qaib", or "blessing" ceremony.  (Note:  A rooster, 3-5 joss incense sticks, a vibrant green-leafed branch, and/or a piece of charred firewood is/can be used for this blessing.)  There are two separate steps/blessings involved.  The first, is the removal or "exorcism" of unwanted things; bad spirits, sickness, and bad omens.  During this "exorcism", three circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from right to left during the incantation.  Once this is done, the second or "blessing" portion, is done next.  Four circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from left to right during the incantation.

Here are two examples of each one can say -- the "exorcism" and "blessing":

The "exorcism" incantation:
1A)  "Tawmsiv os, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiajkeeb puajtxwm,
ntawv noj ntawv haus, plig nyiaj plig kub, plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig ki, plig qoob
plig loo, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po nawb!”

“Kuv lwm no yog lwm yam phem yam tsis zoo ov, lwm sub dub sub doog, sub mob sub
nkeeg, sub tawg sub ntsa, ntsuj muam tais laim nya, ntseb tooj ntseb hlau, kev phem kev
qias, lwj liam kev nyuaj siab ntxhov plawv, kev poob nyiaj poob txiaj, kev ntsoj kev
ntsuag, kev ploj kev tuag, kev quaj kev nyiav, khawvnyeej khawvnyws, khawvntxiv
khawvnkum mus rau ntuj to qhov teb to nrog os kom mus lawm hnub coog hli kawg
fabyaj li kumhiav kom ntsej tsis hnov muag tsis pom nawb!"
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new))

2A)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm nkauj nyab plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig kiv, plig nyiaj plig kub.  Kuv lwm no, kuv tsuas lwm lwm nkauj nyab txoj kev nkauj txoj kev nraug, dab peg dab ntxaug, kev plees kev yi, dab ntxoog dab tso.  Xyob txhiaj pem hwv kom poob nthav rov nruam rooj tu nrho rov nraum ntsa.  Tsis pub txoj nkauj nyab qab tsis tseem kom taug nkauj nyab lw, luag muaj txig muaj nkawm lawm."  (From a "sifu".)

The "blessing" incantation:
1B)  “Tawmsiv os, kuv txhawb no mas txhawb (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiaj keeb puajtxwm
ov, txhawb ntawv txij ntawv nkawm, ntawv noj ntawv haus, kev txawj kev ntse, kev nom
kev tswv, kev vaj kev hwv, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po, plig tub plig ki,
plig niam plig txiv, plig qoob plig loo, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, nplej qib txhuv ntsuas, 9 vaj
mab 8 vaj sua, 9 txwg tub mab 8 txwj tub qhe, 9 leeg tub txawj 8 leej ntxhais ntse nawb
kom los nyob vam ntws li xub ntab, nroo ntws li xub muv, txoj sia kom ntev li tus dej,
lub zog kom luaj lub hauv toj, los nyob tshiab li nyiaj ci li kub, tawg poj kom tau yoog,
txi txiv tau noj nawb!”
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new))

2B)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no kuv lwm no kuv yuav lwm nkauj nyab los rau hauv vaj huav tsev.  Zaum no txiv los txiv coj niam los, niam los niam coj tub coj kiv coj plig nyiaj plig kub los, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, plig qoob plig loo.  Tub los ces tub coj kev neej kev tsav los, plhu nom plhu tswv los nrog tub nyab ua neej ib nqaj kom nto ntuj, ib ploog kom nto ntsis niaj txhiab ib txhis kom noj tsis kawg qub haus tsis kawg ntsis no laud." (From a "sifu".)

Once the "exorcism" and "blessing" is done, the couple can then enter the house.  Upon entry - take off your shoes - then have the girl/bride, take a seat in the dinning/kitchen area.  (Note:  This is a  Hmong belief -- no explanation given.)  Immediately, the son/guy will "kowtow"/bow to his father, mother, uncles etc., and say the following below.  (Provided, had the son/guy informed his parents' of his intentions, typically an elder; more times than not the one doing the "exorcism" and "blessing" will lead the son/guy during the "kowtow"/bowing.  "Hmoob hais tias, 'Ua tsaug los sis pom niam pom txiv.")  The individuals/persons to kowtow/bow are:  txiv=dad, niam=mom, elder uncles=niam hlob txiv hlob, younger uncles=niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, aunts/uncles=muam phauj yawg laus, aunts/uncles-in-laws=niam dab laug txiv dab laug, brothers=nus tij nus kwv, grandparents=poj koob yawm koob, clan/wedding leader=coj tshoob coj kos, the house spirit=niam txiv ncej dab ncej qhua.

Kowtow/bow twice per individual saying the following incantation:

1A)  "Txiv od! (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) mus txob plaub txob ntug.  Yuav poj yuav sev los rau koj txob koj txhawj.  Yuav vam koj pab no laud mog."  (From a "sifu".)

2B)  "Txiv od!  (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob ce ces yuav poj yuav sev.  Hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob tiav txha ces yuav muaj cuab muaj yi tsa.  Yuav vam khom koj pab no laud mog."  (Revised version.)

After all individuals have been acknowledged and kowtow/bowed to then this concludes this first/initial procedure/step of a traditional Hmong wedding -- the act of "bringing the girl/lady into the home/desired destination."

To be continued ...  (The next step is sending/delivering the message to the parents' of the girl/lady -- "mus fi xov".)

Ua tsaug ...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: VIM on August 30, 2013, 08:11:27 AM
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... (fyi - VIM, your version is not quite right, as Hmong men do not surprise the girl/lady when they go "mus zij tshoob" -- unbeknownst or unexpectedly.  More times than not, the girl/lady already knows the man or suitor and that they will be bride-napped/kidnapped ...  :))

Once the young man has informed his parents' of his intentions, and the preparations are ready, he can proceed to go and acquire the girl/lady.  It is best he brings her home - to his house or an immediate uncle/relative if she lives out of town and/or out of state - before sunset, preferably by noon.  (Note:  A Hmong belief is that, during any time the girl/lady is being acquired, if an accident or "bad omen" occurs such as seeing an anomaly or similar -- like an animal crossing his path etc., then the acquisition should be postponed and set for another day or later date.  Basically, make sure nothing unusual or out of the ordinary occurs during and throughout this entire process to the point where the girl actually arrives at the home or desired destination.)

Immediately upon arriving at the home or desired destination, "DO NOT" go inside.  Wait at the doorstep until the father or uncle is ready to receive you -- the son and his bride.  Once the father/uncle opens the door, kneel down -- the son and his bride -- the bride to his left hand side.  The father/uncle will then begin the "lwm qaib", or "blessing" ceremony.  (Note:  A rooster, 3-5 joss incense sticks, a vibrant green-leafed branch, and/or a piece of charred firewood is/can be used for this blessing.)  There are two separate steps/blessings involved.  The first, is the removal or "exorcism" of unwanted things; bad spirits, sickness, and bad omens.  During this "exorcism", three circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from right to left during the incantation.  Once this is done, the second or "blessing" portion, is done next.  Four circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from left to right during the incantation.

Here are two examples of each one can say -- the "exorcism" and "blessing":

The "exorcism" incantation:
1A)  "Tawmsiv os, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiajkeeb puajtxwm,
ntawv noj ntawv haus, plig nyiaj plig kub, plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig ki, plig qoob
plig loo, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po nawb!”

“Kuv lwm no yog lwm yam phem yam tsis zoo ov, lwm sub dub sub doog, sub mob sub
nkeeg, sub tawg sub ntsa, ntsuj muam tais laim nya, ntseb tooj ntseb hlau, kev phem kev
qias, lwj liam kev nyuaj siab ntxhov plawv, kev poob nyiaj poob txiaj, kev ntsoj kev
ntsuag, kev ploj kev tuag, kev quaj kev nyiav, khawvnyeej khawvnyws, khawvntxiv
khawvnkum mus rau ntuj to qhov teb to nrog os kom mus lawm hnub coog hli kawg
fabyaj li kumhiav kom ntsej tsis hnov muag tsis pom nawb!"
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new))

2A)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm nkauj nyab plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig kiv, plig nyiaj plig kub.  Kuv lwm no, kuv tsuas lwm lwm nkauj nyab txoj kev nkauj txoj kev nraug, dab peg dab ntxaug, kev plees kev yi, dab ntxoog dab tso.  Xyob txhiaj pem hwv kom poob nthav rov nruam rooj tu nrho rov nraum ntsa.  Tsis pub txoj nkauj nyab qab tsis tseem kom taug nkauj nyab lw, luag muaj txig muaj nkawm lawm."  (From a "sifu".)

The "blessing" incantation:
1B)  “Tawmsiv os, kuv txhawb no mas txhawb (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiaj keeb puajtxwm
ov, txhawb ntawv txij ntawv nkawm, ntawv noj ntawv haus, kev txawj kev ntse, kev nom
kev tswv, kev vaj kev hwv, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po, plig tub plig ki,
plig niam plig txiv, plig qoob plig loo, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, nplej qib txhuv ntsuas, 9 vaj
mab 8 vaj sua, 9 txwg tub mab 8 txwj tub qhe, 9 leeg tub txawj 8 leej ntxhais ntse nawb
kom los nyob vam ntws li xub ntab, nroo ntws li xub muv, txoj sia kom ntev li tus dej,
lub zog kom luaj lub hauv toj, los nyob tshiab li nyiaj ci li kub, tawg poj kom tau yoog,
txi txiv tau noj nawb!”
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new))

2B)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no kuv lwm no kuv yuav lwm nkauj nyab los rau hauv vaj huav tsev.  Zaum no txiv los txiv coj niam los, niam los niam coj tub coj kiv coj plig nyiaj plig kub los, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, plig qoob plig loo.  Tub los ces tub coj kev neej kev tsav los, plhu nom plhu tswv los nrog tub nyab ua neej ib nqaj kom nto ntuj, ib ploog kom nto ntsis niaj txhiab ib txhis kom noj tsis kawg qub haus tsis kawg ntsis no laud." (From a "sifu".)

Once the "exorcism" and "blessing" is done, the couple can then enter the house.  Upon entry - take off your shoes - then have the girl/bride, take a seat in the dinning/kitchen area.  (Note:  This is a  Hmong belief -- no explanation given.)  Immediately, the son/guy will "kowtow"/bow to his father, mother, uncles etc., and say the following below.  (Provided, had the son/guy informed his parents' of his intentions, typically an elder; more times than not the one doing the "exorcism" and "blessing" will lead the son/guy during the "kowtow"/bowing.  "Hmoob hais tias, 'Ua tsaug los sis pom niam pom txiv.")  The individuals/persons to kowtow/bow are:  txiv=dad, niam=mom, elder uncles=niam hlob txiv hlob, younger uncles=niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, aunts/uncles=muam phauj yawg laus, aunts/uncles-in-laws=niam dab laug txiv dab laug, brothers=nus tij nus kwv, grandparents=poj koob yawm koob, clan/wedding leader=coj tshoob coj kos, the house spirit=niam txiv ncej dab ncej qhua.

Kowtow/bow twice per individual saying the following incantation:

1A)  "Txiv od! (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) mus txob plaub txob ntug.  Yuav poj yuav sev los rau koj txob koj txhawj.  Yuav vam koj pab no laud mog."  (From a "sifu".)

2B)  "Txiv od!  (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob ce ces yuav poj yuav sev.  Hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob tiav txha ces yuav muaj cuab muaj yi tsa.  Yuav vam khom koj pab no laud mog."  (Revised version.)

After all individuals have been acknowledged and kowtow/bowed to then this concludes this first/initial procedure/step of a traditional Hmong wedding -- the act of "bringing the girl/lady into the home/desired destination."

To be continued ...  (The next step is sending/delivering the message to the parents' of the girl/lady -- "mus fi xov".)

Ua tsaug ...   :)

As you can see...this pix depict a double zij pojniam, knowing that the camera is focused on them...seemed they even had a smirky look on their faces...lol.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/jkgm0g.jpg)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on August 30, 2013, 09:39:52 AM
+1.  Thank you, Chidorix0x.  Waiting for the continuation.. .   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on September 04, 2013, 05:06:24 PM
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ...  (Lilly, I have been extremely busy lately, esp. this entire last week till today, so be patient and in the end, all will be worthwhile ...  :) As a matter of fact, upon this thread's (my) conclusion, one can literally apply this information/knowledge into actual practice - as needed and where applicable ...  O0 ... whereas, the general info. peppered throughout Google/WWW is just that -- "general info." and inapplicable per actual practice more or less.)

That said, after some analysis, a thought occurred to me that the best way to further discuss this subject matter, a "traditional Hmong wedding" from start to end, in order to minimize confusion and provide the maximum comprehension, is to break up each individual component, to best explain and elaborate on each -- such as the process, procedures, and materials/things required and/or needed and used.

There are several parts or components within a "traditional Hmong wedding", not just the actual wedding ceremony itself, at the inlaws' residency or "lub rooj tshoob ua noj ua haus tij neej tij tsav tij ntsuab tij ze."  (Note:  Both the groom and bride's side has their own parts/components to prepare, do, and execute, but within this discussion, only the groom's will be explained and elaborated on.  I may or better yet someone else can discuss/explain the bride's part ...  :))

The various facets (parts/components) of a "traditional Hmong wedding" are:
1.  Go acquire the young lady to bring home for the exorcism/blessing -- "mus coj tus nkauj nyab los lwm qaib rau hauv vaj hauv tsev)
2.  Deliver the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage -- "mus fi xov"
3.  After three days, or there after, but before the "wedding ceremony" have a "bride blessing ceremony -- "puv peb tag kis, hu nkauj nyab plig"
4.  On the day of the scheduled/planned "wedding ceremony", have a breakfast (feast), to send off the group to the inlaws' for the wedding -- "ua rooj mov noj txhawb xa cov mus ua tshoob"
5.  The actual "wedding ceremony" at the inlaws' -- "noj rooj tshoob"
6.  Return home to conclude the wedding -- "rov los tsev los xaus tshoob tiam mej koob"

As one can see, there are actually six mandatory facets/parts of a "traditional Hmong wedding", which ironically one will not find per Google/WWW or any published book, article, or document that I know or am aware of, despite incessant "squawkers" squawking ignorantly ...  ;D.  For the most part, all that Google/WWW and most/all publication has to offer is focused on #5 -- providing general info. with tidbits and pieces from other parts where they see it or where it is applicable, or is excluded entirely.  Yes, I am fully aware of the fact that there are other components or parts, such as "asking for the aid of wedding mediators" -- "mus thov mej koob" -- among others, but those are rather minor compared to the six mentioned above.  And technically, those minor components/facets are actually found and are within one of the six mandatory facets/parts.

Now on to part #2:  2.  Deliver the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage -- "mus fi xov"

Remember, had the young man/son, informed his parents of his planned acquisition of the young lady, the two individuals tasked with the responsibility of "delivering the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage", will be ready upon a moment's notice to go and deliver the message - "mus fi xov".

The two individuals tasked with this job will take with them:  1) the stripped ribbon, tied in 2 or 3 knots (see previous explanation) with roughly $200 -- "lub qe rau niam rau txiv" -- $300 if there is a second mom -- "rau niam yau" etc. 2) 1-2 carton of cigarettes - "mus tsab luam yeeb" and 3) some $20 bills - "nyiaj muab rau cov txiv neej tus pab txais xo"  (Note:  Items #1 and #2 is required/mandatory. Item #3 is optional thus no explanation will be given.)

Immediately after, even before - just depends, upon bringing the young lady/girl (or bride to be) home, the two individuals will part to the young lady's parents' house to deliver the message  -- "mus fi xov".  (Yes, make sure the parents are home, especially the father, before going.  That's a no brainer.  The norm nowadays is a common courtesy phone call is made.)

Upon arriving at the girl's parents' house, knock or ring the door bell.  The first thing to ask after someone has answered the door is, "Is this the home of <girl's father's name>?" -- "Nyob zoo os, ntawm nod pus yog <Txiv ...> tsev os?"

Unless you went to a wrong location or was given an incorrect address, the two of you are being expected, so they will say, "Yes.  Come in." -- "Yog kawg mad.  Los tsev os."  (DO NOT proceed to go in right away.)

Next ask, "Are there any rituals in place, that we may not enter?" -- "Nej pus caiv os?"  (If there is, you CANNOT ENTER and will be told as such. But more times than not, there are none and you will be told and asked to enter.)

Before entering, take off your shoes.  It is a sign (Hmong etiquette) of respect.  Upon entering, the moment you see the young lady's father, the two messengers begin the "bowing/kowtow" process and say one of the following (Yes, there may be others too.):

1.  "Thov niam thov txiv laud! (Hais tus tub txiv lub npe) tus tub hu ua (hais tus tub lub npe) nod tau coj tau niam thiab txiv tus ntxhais (hais tus ntxhais/nkauj nyab lub npe) mua lawm es niam txiv tom ub thov wb ob twg tuaj thoob lub xo rau niam rau txiv paub no nawb." (From a book.)

2.  "Txiv os!  Hnub nod peb tsev Hmoob (hais lub xeem) yawg/txiv (hais tus tub txiv lub npe) tus tub hu (hais tus tub lub npe) tuaj coj tau koj tus ntxhais hu ua (hais tus ntxhais lub npe) no lawm.  Yog lid koj ua txiv txhob qhuaj txhob nrhiav.  Peb coj mus nyob muaj chaw lawm nod nawb mog. (From a "sifu".)

Continue to say the same thing and bow/kowtow to each of these individuals:  mom=niam, niam hlob txiv hlob, niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, muam phauj yawg laus, niam dab laug txiv dab laug, nus tij nus kwv, poj koob yawg koob, tus coj tshoob coj kos, niam txiv ncej dab ncej qhua.

Once complete, take a seat and wait a minute or two, then immediately open a carton of cigarettes and give 2-each to the father per individual/persons mentioned above -- exactly as the ones in the bowing/kowtow.  Lastly, give another 2-cigarettes and ask the following (about who is the family's/clan's wedding head/leader -- "tus coj tshoob coj kos"):

"Lus mas yuav hais li no rau koj ua txiv.  Koj zam txoj kev dab rau wb os twg tub fiv xov thiab laud mog.  Luag tej laus piv txoj lug hais tias lub hnub tsis zoo twb lub hli lo lus tsis zoo twb niam twb txi.  Koj yog niam yog txiv lawm tsis tsim nyog yuav los nug koj laud.  Tab sis koj txhob xav lis cas.  Niam txiv tus coj noj coj ua coj tshoob coj kos nyob rau qhov twg.  Yuav vam koj ua txiv ho qhia rau wb ob tug tub thoob xo es wb hos mus raws tuaj.  Hnub nod yawg/txiv (hais npe) tus tub tuaj coj tau neb ua niam ua txiv tus ntxhais hu ua (hais npe) no lawm.  Yog lid wb tuaj thoob lub xo rau neb ua niam ua txiv mas yuav vam nws tuaj txais lub me xo no laud mog."  (This is expected and even required/mandatory, being part of this process, even if the inquired/said person/individual -- "tus coj tshoob coj kos" -- has already arrived, is present, and sitting next to the father or among you.  If they have not arrived or whatever reasons, then it is your responsibility to go and fetch him, unless told otherwise.)

Once this question has been asked, the father's response, will lead to what needs to be done next. Let's say the person, "tus coj tshoob coj kos", is present and has been pointed out by the father.  One then immediately approach him and give him 2-cigarettes each, exactly what was done previously for all individual/persons, ending with 2-cigarettes for him, or the one receiving the message -- "ib kab (2-cigaretttes) rau tus tsawb tshoob tsawb kos".

Next give another 2-cigarettes to him again along with the stripped ribbon with its tied knots and say the following:

"Lus mas yuav hais li no rau koj tus tsawb tshoob tsawb kos los yog tus coj.  Hnub no niam txiv xeem (hais xeem) tus tub tuaj coj tau niam txiv tus ntxhais hu ua (hais tus ntxhais/nkauj nyab lub npe) no lawm.  Yog lid niam txiv txooj xeem (hais xeem) tau thov kom wb tuaj pab thoob lub xo rau niam txiv.  Yog li qhov me no yog txoj me siv ceeb tuaj thoob lub xo rau niam thiab txiv.  Tog no yog $60 ntaus txhuv tsis paub fab hno rau ib tsoom niam hlob txiv hlob, niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, poj koob yawg koob, nus tij nus kws.  Hos tog no yog $20 ntaus lub me xo rau niam rau txiv kom txhob quaj txhob nrhiav no nawb mog."

After this, pull out the $200-$300 etc., and say the following:

"Lus mas hais lid no thiab.  Qhov me no yog tam li ob (or peb, yog muaj niam yau etc.) lub me qe rau niam rau txiv xwb.  Txawm hais tias tsis raug ntsej raug muag los kom niam txiv txhob xav li cas txhob tu siab no mog."

Then give $20 to the person as well and say:

"Qhov me nod yog ib kab me yeeb rau koj.  Hnub no vam koj tuaj tsawv tshoob tsawb kos los cuag li tsis muaj ib kab zoo yeeb rau koj los txhob tu siab no mog."  (Note:  If there are other adult men present, from the bride's side present, then give each $20 as well.)

Once complete, the two messengers (ob tug tub fiv xo), will have to bow/kowtow all the person/individuals again, saying the following:

"Thov txiv os!  Hnub no Niam Txiv Xeem (hais xeem) tuaj coj tau koj ua niam ua txiv tus ntxhais lawm yog lis yuav tsawg koj ib sab tes no nawb mog.  Koj ua niam ua txiv txhob quaj txhob nrhiav mog."  (Note:  Loosely translated for non-literate Hmong, it means, "Father, please forgive us. Today, the "insert surname) clan has wed your daughter thus you are short one household member and/or helper.  Please do not cry/be sad or pursue/look for her.")

After this, take a short one to two minute break, then proceed to ask the person receiving the message when the family of the bride is available to schedule the "wedding ceremony" -- "seb niam txiv xyeej lub ncaij lub nyoog twg yuav tuaj ntsuas dej ntsuas txhuv tis ntsuab tis ze, ua tshoob noj kos".  If he knows or has already confirmed this with the bride's father/family, then you will be informed; otherwise other plans and arrangements will have to be made.  Whichever, you will be informed prior to your departure.

Once you have been informed accordingly then excuse yourself and proceed to vacate the residency -- "los mus tsev xaus fi xov".  However, do not forget to INFORM/TELL, either in person back at their home or via phone, the groom's father/family about any discrepancies, mistakes, challenges, obstacles, and especially the scheduled date of the "wedding ceremony" that you ran into, have been told, or had to resolve ("lam") and/or agreed upon so that during the day of the "wedding ceremony" any and all things can be dealt with accordingly, smoothly, and peacefully -- "kom tsis muaj lus ntaug lus xaiv".

This concludes "2.  Deliver the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage -- "mus fi xov"."

Ua tsaug ...  :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on September 05, 2013, 05:45:09 PM
+1.  Wow, ua tsaug, Chidorix0x.  Will you continue?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on September 05, 2013, 08:18:22 PM
+1.  Wow, ua tsaug, Chidorix0x.  Will you continue?  Thanks!

 ;) ... no problem.  It seems you are genuinely interested and want to know; thus all the relevant info., insight, and knowledge/practices will be bestowed for everyone, to its finale -- where anyone can actualize and apply this information/knowledge where or as needed ...  O0.  Just be patient because it takes time to write all of this up. A single sitting (entry) will not do it much justice unless you want the Google/WWW "general info" and "bare minimum near inapplicable" version ...  :D.

(Speaking of which, where and why don't the Google/WWW "squawkers" provide us with their "key word searches", "mouse clicking", and "doc/video links" because I, for one, want to further my knowledge/understanding of Hmong's "traditional wedding" practice/ceremony -- from its start to its conclusion ...  ;D. Surely there must be "tons" of Google/WWW "general info." out there? We want to see, know, and learn ...  :2funny: ... :-X.)

Ua tsaug ...  :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: DuMa on September 05, 2013, 08:21:58 PM
go chi

show them how serious ph is all about..

with that in mind, I have not read anything  much in this thread here.  I just wanted to stop by and say hi.  see you around 
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on September 05, 2013, 09:10:28 PM

(Speaking of which, where and why don't the Google/WWW "squawkers" provide us with their "key word searches", "mouse clicking", and "doc/video links" because I, for one, want to further my knowledge/understanding of Hmong's "traditional wedding" practice/ceremony --


Because "chlorox" still fails to comprehend simple text. ;D
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on September 06, 2013, 02:12:57 PM
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... (Upon completing "delivering the message to the girl/lady's parents of her elopement/marriage" -- "mus fi xov" -- the groom's family must then make preparation and schedule a day (feast) to have the "bride blessing ceremony" -- "hu nkauj nyab plig".  Some newly wed brides nowadays, and even some who were wed years ago, have said or claim that their inlaws, or the family they have wed into, do not and claim they do not perform the "bride blessing ceremony".  This is pure "BS".  Every Hmong clan/group, regardless of whether they are Green or White or whatever group -- "pab pawg" -- including Hmong-Christians culturally, historically, and traditionally have all performed the "bride blessing ceremony" whenever a son of theirs gets married -- "mus coj thiab yuav tau luag ib twg ntxhais los ua poj ua se."  (Note: If the groom's family does not perform the "bride blessing ceremony", and if word of this gets back to the bride's father/family, then they have a right to penalize - "nplua" - the groom and/or his family, at their discretion according to Hmong culture/custom.  In the old days, back in SEAsia, if the groom/family fails to "hu nkauj nyab plig", they are outright penalized - if not worst.)  Additionally, at the "bride blessing ceremony", not only is the bride "honored", or "khi tes", but so is the groom - "tus vauv", the best man - "tub phij laj", the bride's maid - "niam tais/ntxhais txais ntsuab", and the two wedding mediators - "ob twg mej koob".  At this point, obviously the best man, bride's maid, and two wedding mediators have already been asked and tasked with their roles/responsibilities -- "cov neeg nod twb thov tau lawm.")

Now let us see what the "bride blessing ceremony" -- "hu nkauj nyab plig" -- all entails.  This is step #3:  3.  After three days, or there after, but before the "wedding ceremony" have a "bride blessing ceremony -- "puv peb tag kis, hu nkauj nyab plig".

The "bride blessing ceremony" requires at minimum two key things, or animals, that is; a whole pig and a pair of chickens - a hen and a rooster.  Yes, the hen is representative of the "bride" and the rooster of the "groom".  As for what the feast or food dishes comprise of, that is entirely up to the groom's family.  There are no requirements whatsoever.  However, "hot pepper", whether a sauce or dish is traditionally forbidden.  The Hmong belief is that because "hot peppers" are hot, that this will lead to a lot of arguments and fighting between the newly wed if it is served and consumed at this ceremony, and especially at the "wedding ceremony" -- "rooj tshoob".  Of course, I have attended a lot of these feast and "hot pepper" was served with no long-term effects or repercussion, so it is a matter of personal preference, choice, or belief.  That said, I have never attended a "wedding ceremony" - "rooj tshoob" - where "hot peppers" were served and consumed.  It is definitely a "NO-NO" at the "wedding ceremony".

One very important piece of the pig when butchered is to save the "tail".  The "tail" is then boiled and presented at the table where an elder will gaze into the fortune or future of the newly wed.  The rest of the pig can be used however to make the various dishes for consumption.  (Saib kw tw npua.  No, I do not know how to do this nor do I have a clue as I have never learned nor asked about it.)

As for the pair of chickens when butchered, except for all of the internal organs which are removed, the chickens must remain whole -- meaning with its head and feet fully intact.  Again, they are boiled and presented at the table where an elder will gaze into the fortune or future of the newly wed.  (Saib qaib.  No, I do not know how to do this nor do I have a clue as I have never learned nor asked about it.)

The "bride blessing ceremony" is exactly like any other Hmong "blessing ceremony" -- "hu plig".  The focal point or person being "blessed" or "honored" in this case is the "bride", or "nkauj nyab" along with the persons mentioned earlier, the groom, best man, maid of honor etc..

Once the table is set, with all persons seated accordingly, the father of the groom or an uncle will be the first to make a formal announcement, stating that his son has taken a wife and they everyone has been invited to come and rejoice their union and to "help tie a string to bless them towards their future as husband and wife".  (Note:  It is paramount that all the dishes served on the table, regardless of what dish it is, must be "EVEN" numbered, meaning only 4, 6, 8, or 10 etc. dishes are to be served.  ODD numbered is forbidden.  Either add or subtract a dish to make it "EVEN".)

After the announcement, an individual will lead the "hand tying ceremony" -- "pib txheej txheem khi tes".  (I suppose I will try and go through this as thoroughly as I can as this is a "KEY" aspect of the "bride blessing ceremony".  Basically, this is really what the "blessing ceremony" is all about or its sole purpose.)  The required persons/individuals who are seated at the forefront of the table, "pem hauv rooj", with specific roles/responsibilities are:  1. the blesser - "tus cheb plig/tes", can be a man or woman, 2. the pig tail divination - "tus saib tw npua", 3. the pair of chicken divination - "tus saib qaib" - two persons are tasked with this as there are two chicken, a hen and a rooster, and finally 4. the spirit guide - "tus xa plig" or "nto dej".  The individual leading the "hand tying ceremony" will pour two shot-glasses/cups of liquor/beer and place them in a plate and hand them to each of the persons mentioned.  He will ask and task them each with the required job they are to perform.  He is done at this point.  The newly wed couple then will be asked to come forth before the "blesser".  The "blesser" will then take the "hand tying strings" -- those bundles neatly tied and aligned on several sticks -- and begin to bless the couple.  If the best man, bride's maid, and the two wedding mediators are present, they can also be blessed at this time as well.  The couples must reach out with both their hands -- palms faced down.  After the blesser's "blessing incantation", the "hand tying strings" are passed out to everyone in attendance -- men, women, and/or children -- whoever wants to "tie the hands of the couple".  (Note:  It is also customary to tie the hands of these persons as well:  best man, maid of honor, the two wedding mediators, and the mom and dad of the groom.)  The couple is mandatory.

Here is an example of what one can say when tying the bride and groom:  (Note:  There is no right or wrong way in Hmong culture/custom, in terms of what one says when tying someone's hand, as long as it is relevant to the occasion and individual or specifically the "blessing ceremony".  Basically, the more you know, Hmong blessing words that is, and the more in-depth your words, the better.  However, if you do not know these "blessing incantation", then say what you feel is best and that is just as good.  Oh, I forgot to mention that it is good practice/etiquette to give anywhere between $1-$20 when tying someone's hand -- $5 is the norm.  The money can be given directly to the individual(s) or placed in the bowl provided.  Sorry, but the other "blessing incantation", for the best man, bride's maid, etc., will not be provided.  Again, as long as you say what is relevant to that individual, then you are good.)

For the bride: 
"Sis aud!  Hnub nod zoo hnub.  Hnub nod zoo nyoog.  Hnub nod kuv yog Vaj Tsab xeem Lis.  Kuv khi koj nkauj nyab tes.  Kuv yuav khi koj los rau hauv vaj hauv tsev.  Kuv khi koj los ua <insert groom's name> tus txhij tus nkawm, los ua nws poj nws se.  Kuv khi koj los nyob dawb nyob huv los muaj tub muaj ki muaj ntxhais muaj ci los puv vaj puv tsev, los tsis muaj hmab dawm tes hlua dawm taw.  Koj yuav los ua ib twg zoo nyab los ua ib twg zoo niam vaj niam tsev no laud."

For the groom:
"Sis aud!  Hnub nod zoo hnub.  Hnub nod zoo nyoog.  Hnub nod kuv yog Vaj Tsab xeem Lis.  Kuv khi koj tub/tij laug/kwv <insert name> tes.  Kuv khi koj los rau hauv niam txiv vaj niam txiv tsev.  Koj niam koj txiv zoo siab zoo plawv muaj tsiaj muaj hno los ua kev zoo siab rau koj.  Hnub nod koj muaj txhij muaj nkawm yuav poj yuav se.  Kuv khi koj los nyob dawb nyob huv los muaj tub muaj ki muaj ntxhais muaj ci los puv vaj puv tsev, los tsis muaj hmab dawm tes hlua dawm taw.  Koj yuav los ua ib twg zoo tub zoo txiv no laud."

Again, there is no right or wrong way to say the "blessing incantation", as long as it is relevant to the "blessing ceremony" and specifically to the individual.

After everyone has finished tying the hands of the individual(s), the individuals tasked with looking at the divinity of the pig tail and pair of chickens will do so.  Once they have deciphered the divinity, they will drink their two shot-glasses as confirmation of their divination.  Next the "blesser" will again "bless" the couple.  Actually, this is an "exorcism" to cleanse the couple and purify them.  The couple will come forth before the "blesser" with both hands extended out, this time the palms will be faced up, as the "blesser" cleanse and purify them.  The string used by the blesser to cleanse the couple, once the "incantation purification" is done, will then be lit afire momentarily as if to burn away any and all impurity or evil spirits/omens, and then put out right away in a glass of water.  This is the very glass of water that the "spirit guide" will be given and had been asked and tasked to toss away or set free later when the time comes.  Immediately, those sitting at the forefront of the table will be asked to praise or support -- "txhawb plig".  This is where the pig tail, pair of chickens, bowl of money, candle, and the fruit/floral arrangement in its big bowl/plate is lifted off the table and given to the bride and groom along with their other recipients/helpers, helping to receive these items.  The bride and groom must take everything and place them in their bedroom.  (Note:  The candle must remain burning until the entire "blessing ceremony" is complete.  It cannot be put out prior to that time.)  Once this is done, then it is time for the "spirit guide" to take the "glass of water" and go toss it away outside -- casting out any and all impurity/evil spirits/omen.  He must say an "incantation" when doing this.  It is merely not just the act of tossing or pouring the water out of the glass.

Finally, everyone seated at the table along with everyone else present can begin enjoying the feast, or food at the table.  Those not seated at the table typically eat buffet style and there is no ceremonial process involved.  However, those seated at the table, will have to abide by the etiquette there according to Hmong culture/custom; which is a procedural ceremonial practice -- "cov txheej txheem cawv" -- the drinking etiquette.  Historically and traditionally, there are 6-8 of these drinks -- "txheej txheem cawv" -- but nowadays, it has been cut to 4 more times than not.  And those sitting at the table do not start eating till the first set of drinks is announced.  (Note:  The correct etiquette of drinking at the table or any table for that matter for any Hmong-centric cultural occasion will not be explained here.  Just pay very close attention to the two who initiated the drinks, copying them, and you cannot go wrong.)  The four required set of drinks -- "txheej txheem caw" -- are:  1.  Union of the couple, or receiving of the bride -- "tus cawv tau nyab" 2. the blessing of the bride -- "tus cawv hu plig" 3. the hand tying -- "tus cawv khi tes", and 4. thanks to everyone for attending, helping, etc. -- "tus cawv ua sawv daws, kwv tij neej tsa tsaug".

Either before or during the final, or fourth drink, the groom's father will make a formal announcement of the "wedding ceremony" day at the inlaws' - if one has already been decided and scheduled.  He will ask that everyone attend.  Once this is done, this concludes the feast at the table and the "blessing ceremony of the bride" -- "rooj mov hu nkauj nyab plig".  The next step is to prepare for, attend, and conclude the "wedding ceremony" on the set date at the inlaws' -- "mus noj rooj tshoob".

This concludes "3.  After three days, or there after, but before the "wedding ceremony" have a "bride blessing ceremony -- "puv peb tag kis, hu nkauj nyab plig"."

Ua tsaug ...  :)

(Btw -- as one can clearly see by now, a "traditional Hmong wedding", is more involved and in-depth ceremonially than what "squawkers" have squawked incessantly of and about per their minimal, limited, and "general info" Google/WWW rants, links, searches, etc. ...  :2funny:.)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on September 06, 2013, 05:47:28 PM
+1.  Ua tsaug!  Waiting for the next step.   ;)  Thanks, Chidorix0x.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: night912 on September 06, 2013, 06:18:16 PM
I've seen some weddings that the hmong green side had 3 mejkoob.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on September 06, 2013, 06:41:46 PM
I've seen some weddings that the hmong green side had 3 mejkoob.

 ??? ... it is a known fact, historically and culturally since SEAsia, that Green Hmong solely have, use, and require a "single" -- as in one, uno, "ib tug mej koob" only.  Not sure what you saw, heard, or have been told.  Hopefully it was not from Google/WWW ...  :2funny: ... or was it ...  :idiot2: .

That said, if a White Hmong marries a Green Hmong girl/lady and goes there, to the Green Hmong, to perform the "wedding ceremony", then they only need "one/a single" wedding mediator -- "tus mej koob".

But say, a Green Hmong marries a White Hmong girl/lady and goes there, to the White Hmong, to perform the "wedding ceremony", then they need "two/a pair" of wedding mediators -- "ob tug mej koob".

Ua tsaug ...  :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: night912 on September 06, 2013, 07:35:47 PM
??? ... it is a known fact, historically and culturally since SEAsia, that Green Hmong solely have, use, and require a "single" -- as in one, uno, "ib tug mej koob" only.  Not sure what you saw, heard, or have been told.  Hopefully it was not from Google/WWW ...  :2funny: ... or was it ...  :idiot2: .

That said, if a White Hmong marries a Green Hmong girl/lady and goes there, to the Green Hmong, to perform the "wedding ceremony", then they only need "one/a single" wedding mediator -- "tus mej koob".

But say, a Green Hmong marries a White Hmong girl/lady and goes there, to the White Hmong, to perform the "wedding ceremony", then they need "two/a pair" of wedding mediators -- "ob tug mej koob".

Ua tsaug ...  :)

When did google have wedding?  Is it some kind of cyber wedding?
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on September 09, 2013, 05:34:13 PM
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... (Before explaining this ceremony, or breakfast/feast, I want to make it perfectly clear that although part #4, #5, and #6 have been uniquely identified, is different, and separate from one another, they all, however, take place on the exact same day or within a 24-hour time period -- just at different times.  (Note:  Historically and culturally, a "traditional Hmong wedding" takes 2-days.  But as a lot of elements have been minimized and outright eliminated, such as all the songs - "cov zaj tshoob", the wedding can be done within a single day.  This conscious decision was made to aid and appropriate time, money, and convenience for everyone involved: the groom and bride's family, the helpers, and relatives etc..)  Also, historically and culturally, some elements of what is nowadays done within part #4 use to be done within part #3.  That is, informing, assigning, and giving the two wedding mediators, best man, bride's maid, and father/representative of the groom -- who really is an uncle, not the biological father -- their task and responsibiliti es per the wedding ceremony, or its desired expectation.  A good example, is the actual presentation of and giving of the "wedding umbrella -- the one tied with the striped ribbon" to the two wedding mediators, or the head mediator.  Again, this portion use to be done, can be done, and has historically been done within part #3.  A reason why it is not done or being done nowadays, is because most of the time, the wedding mediators, nowadays, do not attend nor can they attend, due to work or whatever, part #3 -- the "hu nkauj nyab plig" ceremony/feast.  Plus it is more convenient to simply make it a part of part #4 as all the wedding helpers: two mediators, best man, bride's maid, and father/rep. of the groom are present at part #4.)

Now let us see what the "feast/breakfast to send off the group" -- "rooj mov noj txhawb xa cov mus ua tshoob" -- all entails.  This is step 4.  On the day of the scheduled/planned "wedding ceremony", have a breakfast (feast), to send off the group to the in-laws' for the wedding -- "ua rooj mov noj txhawb xa cov mus ua tshoob".

Foremost, because in actuality, this is the day of the "wedding ceremony" at the in-laws'; therefore required items/things are needed and must be prepared, to be given and taken, with the "wedding group" to the in-laws' upon arrival.

These items are:  1) the wedding umbrella tied with the striped ribbon 2) a blanket neatly folded and tied as a backpack bundle 3) a backpack basket -- "Hmoob lub kawm" -- with the following items/things inside; a bottle of beer/liquor=ib lam fwj cawv, a bag of rice (5-15lbs)=ib hnab txhuv, two/four spoons=ob/plaub rab diav, a bottle of oil=ib poom roj, a bottle of salt=ib poom ntsev, a bag/container of cooked rice=ib pob mov, a knife/Hmong knife=rab riam dab, and lastly a total of 5 whole chickens, thoroughly cleaned and boiled cooked ready for consumption.  (Note:  The cooked rice and a pair of chickens, "ob tug noj su", will be consumed by the "wedding group" at a stopping point before arriving at the in-laws.  The "heads" and "feet" of the consumed pair of chickens "MUST BE SAVED" and presented/given to the in-laws on arrival at the appropriate time.  It serves as evidence -- no explanation needed.  If they are missing for whatever reasons, then the in-laws can "penalize -- nplua" the groom, and/or his "group/family".  The five chickens must be in their own separate white clothe bags that can be sewed in advance.  One pair of chicken will be consume on the way, saving the heads and feet as noted.  The other pair, "ob tug qaib qhia tsiaj", is presented and given to match the in-laws' pair during the feast at the table -- "rooj noj tshoob" -- for consumption.  The sole single chicken, it can be a hen or rooster, though a rooster is preferred, is to be given and offered to the in-laws' who will use it as an "offering to their house spirit".  It is called "tus qaib mus npws poj npws yawm" -- literally "the chicken for the ancestors or grandparents/elders".  The bride's family, or in-laws, will offer and give a similar chicken in return for the same purpose at the conclusion of the "wedding ceremony".

A pig, though not required, is typically killed to make several dishes, and especially "cov ntxuag -- meat dishes" for the morning feast/breakfast to send off the wedding group.  On this day, early in the morning, starting at 5AM, food preparations are made as relatives and said wedding group individuals arrive.  Once everyone has arrived, the table is set, and assigned individuals will take their seats accordingly.  The feast/breakfast will commence and 4-6 drinks will be announced to be drank with the meal.  At the conclusion of the feast/breakfast, the table has been cleared and cleaned, and will immediately be set again, but only with the "meat dishes -- cov ntxuag" this time.  The wedding group, that is: the two wedding mediators, best man, bride's maid, and groom's father/representative will be asked to sit at the forefront of the table in that order.  Once everyone is seated, an individual, tasked with speaking, asking, and assigning responsibiliti es to those individuals will step forth and pour 2-shot glasses/cups of beer/liquor per individual, placing them in a plate and handing them to each individual.  Once each member of the wedding group has received their plate of 2-shot glasses/cups of beer/liquor, this individual will begin making formal requests to thank each individual person.

Here is what one can say:

First to the wedding mediators -- "ob twg mej koob". (From a "sifu".  Note:  The wedding mediators sole purpose and job is to mediate, negotiate, speak/advise, and even at times help resolve or dissolve any/all issues that may arise on behalf of the family or groom's family in this case.)

"Lus tshoob lus kos mas yuav hais lis nod rau neb ob twg tug ua tij/txiv/dab laug/kwv etc..  Hnub nod peb plaj tshoob ncig los txog kev kos ncig los poob.  Yog lid yuav vam neb ob tug mus nrog ua txiv tuam mej koob.  Hnub nod peb plaj tshoob ncig los poob, kev kos txog.  Thiaj yuav vam neb ob tug mus nrog ua txiv tuam mej koob kos.  Yuav vam neb ob tug nrog nkauj nyab nraug vauv mus tis ntsuab tis ze tis neej tis tsav.

Yog lid yuav kom yog lub luag raws lid txoj kab txoj ke ves peb yuav tsum ntauj lis tawv tuaj poob nqa nyog khob dej caw tuaj thov neb lub zog khoov.  Peb yuav tsum ntauj lis tawv tuaj txog nqa khob dej caw tuaj thov lawm neb lub zog tab sis peb tuaj tsis txog neb vaj khiav tsis txog neb tsev, peb tsuas yog hu xov tooj rau neb los yog txib neb yas kab yas kev yas kab yas ncua xwb los neb txhob tu siab nawb.  Kaj ntug tag kis xab theeb lwm hnub neb tsis muaj tub muab nyab tsis muaj ntxhais qua los tseg.  Yog neb muaj ntshai neb vam tsis txog peb tsoom kwv tij txib tub xwb.  Yog nev vam txog peb cov kwv tij txiv tub los peb yuav tuaj pab kom tau neb yuav tsis tso neb tseg no lau mog.  Thov saum neb ob tug txiv tuam mej koob lwm mej koob no laud.  (Then bow/kowtow twice.)

For the best man -- "tub phij laj".  (From a "sifu".  Note:  The best man's sole responsibility is to aid the groom in whatever -- basically just to pair up with him, help where ever and as needed, and most of all drink and bow/kowtow.  Nothing more, nor is more expected.)

"Lus tshoob lus kos mas yuav hais lid no rau koj ua tub.  Hnub nod peb plaj tshoob ncig los txog kev kos ncig los poob.  Yog lid thiaj yuav vam koj pab mus ua tub phij laj mus nrog saib qhua kos pe qhua tshoob.  Hnub nod peb plaj tshoob ncig los poob kev kos ncig los txog.  Thiaj lid yuav vam koj pab mus ua tub phij laj mus nrog saib qhua tshoob pe qhua kos no laud mog.

Yog lid yuav kom yog lub luag raws lid txoj kab txoj ke ves peb yuav tsum ntauj lis tawv tuaj poob nqa nyog khob dej caw tuaj thov neb lub zog khoov.  Peb yuav tsum ntauj lis tawv tuaj txog nqa khob dej caw tuaj thov lawm neb lub zog tab sis peb tuaj tsis txog neb vaj khiav tsis txog neb tsev, peb tsuas yog hu xov tooj rau neb los yog txib neb yas kab yas kev yas kab yas ncua xwb los neb txhob tu siab nawb. 

Kaj ntug tag kis xab theeb lwm hnub koj tsis muaj tub muab nyab tsis muaj ntxhais qua los tseg.  Yog koj muaj ntshai koj vam tsis txog peb tsoom kwv tij txib tub xwb.  Yog koj vam txog peb cov kwv tij txiv tub los peb yuav tuaj pab kom tau koj yuav tsis tso koj tseg no lau mog.  Thov saum koj nawb tub phij laj nawb no laud.  (Then bow/kowtow twice.)

For the bride's maid -- "niam tais ntsuab/ntxhais txais ntsuab".  (From a "sifu".  Note:  The bride's maid's sole responsibility is to pair with the bride, keeping an "eye" on her, and where applicable report on any "misbehavior" she is doing, may be plotting, or scheming to jeopardize and possibly nullify the "wedding ceremony".)

"Lus tshoob lus kos mas yuav hais lid no rau koj ua niam tais ntsuab.  Hnub nod peb plaj tshoob ncig los txog kev kos ncig los poob.  Yog lid thiaj yuav vam koj pab mus ua niam tais ntsuab mus laj niam laj txi laj nraug nws mus nrog saib qhua pom tshoob.  Hnub nod peb plaj tshoob ncig los poob kev kos ncig los txog.  Thiaj lid yuav vam koj pab mus ua niam tais ntsuab mus laj niam laj txi laj nraug nws mus pom tshoob saib qhua no laud mog.
...
..."  (Then bow/kowtow twice.)

For the groom's father/representative -- "niam txiv lav tshoob lav kos".  (From a "sifu".  Note:  The groom's father/representative is solely responsible for resolving and accepting any issues to be negotiated and resolved on behalf of the groom's biological father and/or family or clan even if need be.)

"Lus tshoob lus kos mas yuav tham lid no rau koj ua niam ua txiv lso yog tus lav tshoob lav kos.  Hnub nod yawg/txiv <insert name> tus tub <insert name> nws hlob mus tiav txha ces nws thiaj tau mus muab nyab.  Hnub nod nws hlob tiav cev ces nws thiaj tau mus muab sev.  Hnub nod nws mus txob plaub txob ntug coj poj coj sev los rau hauv vaj hauv tsev.  Yog lid txiv kub yuav cia rau koj ntoo txiv tw yuav cia rau koj suab, plaub xo ncej ntug, lus tshoob lus kos yuav cia rau koj muab.

Zaum nod txiv tw los yuav cia koj saub, txiv kub los yuav cia koj ntoo, ncej xai plaub lus ntug lus tshoob lus kos yuav cia rau koj mloog no laud.  Yuav vam koj mus nrog chawj tshoob chawj kos, chawj niam chawj txiv.  Dub los yuav vam koj mus nrog ntxhua.  Ntuag los yuav vam koj mus nrog ntxiv.  Yuav vam koj coj koj lub plhu txiaj mus ntaiv hnub plhu ntsig mus ntaiv hli kom peb tau neej tau tsav tau kev ntoj kev thuv.  Koj tus txiaj ntsig peb yuav ris txiaj ntsha peb yuav nqa nod laud mog koj tus ua niam ua txiv tus coj tshoob coj kos.  Thov saum koj nawb mog.  (Then bow/kowtow twice.)

Once everyone has been addressed and formally thanked, they are next specifically informed and tasked to perform their exact duties.  Yes, after each individual is addressed, they need to be bowed/kowtowed to.  Sorry, the verbiage here will not be given as they are quite lengthy and will take some time to type out.  Just know that this needs to be done immediately following the initial phase, which is the formal request and thanking of their aid/help and/or role.

Once this is done, the giving of the umbrella to the "wedding mediators" is done.  In addition, the money that will be required is also given to them.  One can give them all the money, a total of $7000-$8000+, but most if not all of the time, the wedding mediators will only accept and take about $1000-$1200 -- the amount needed/required at the start and to begin the "wedding negotiations" or conversations.  The difference or remaining amount then is either given to the groom's father/representative or an immediate family member to hold on to and take to the in-laws' following the "wedding group".  After this and once the "wedding mediators" has received the umbrella and money, they will then ask the groom and best man to come forth and bow/kowtow the following before setting off to the "in-laws'" to begin the "wedding ceremony".

The following persons/individuals will need to be bowed/kowtowed to:  father=txiv, mother=niam, elder uncles/aunts=niam hlob txiv hlob, younger uncles/aunts=niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, brothers/sisters-in-laws=ib tsoom niam tij thiab tij laug, leader/clan leader=tus coj tshoob coj kos, great/grandparents=poj kooj yawg koob, the house spirit/ancestors=ncej dab ncej qhua.

The following can be said per person/individual to bow/kowtow to:

"Txiv ov (just change the name here for each person/individual)!  Hnub nod yuav mus xaus tshoob xaus kos.  Nyob hauv tsev ua siab ntwb ntev tos no laud mog." (Then the groom/best man bow/kowtow twice.)

Once all the above is done then bow/kowtow to the "spirit of the city/state/country" as follows:

"Koj xeeb teb xeeb chaw, <insert City name> lid teb chaws, <insert State name> lid teb chaws, teb chaw <insert Country>.  Hnub nod peb yuav mus xaus tshoob xaus kos yog lid nrog pov fwm pov yawm kom peb mus kaj mus huv mus dawb mus zoo, mus kom tsis ntsib plaub ntsib ntug tsis ntsib xaiv ntsib lus kom tau tshoob tau kos rov los kom txog vaj txog tsev no laud!"  (Then the groom/best man bow/kowtow twice.)

The wedding group then gathers all the things needed and begin to part for the in-laws'.  At the offset and at the in-laws, they will line up and proceed in the following order; the head mediator first=tuam mej koob ua ntej, the vice mediator=lwm mej koob, best man carrying the backpack basket=tub phij laj, the groom carrying the blanket=tus vauv, the bride=tus nyab, and finally the bride's maid=niam tais ntsuab/ntxhais txais ntsuab.  This lineup will exit the groom's house and enter the in-laws' house in this exact order.  If not, the in-laws may or can "penalize -- nplua" the groom and/or his family.

Once the wedding group has left the residency, those remaining typically will follow suit -- the men that is, once the wedding group has arrived at the in-laws'.  Some family members -- the women that is, can and do stay behind to make preparations for the wedding groups' return upon concluding the "wedding ceremony" at the in-laws'.

The wedding group after departing, but before arriving at the in-laws', must stop along the way and have "brunch" -- typically referred to as lunch, "noj su" -- and this is where a pair of the chickens along with the cooked rice is brought out and ate by everyone.  Remember, the heads and feet of the chickens must be saved to be presented and given to the in-laws' upon arrival when asked.  The four drumstick with the thighs  attached are to be given to the groom, bride, best man, and bride's maid.  The two wedding mediators eat the other parts of the chicken.  A very important part of this meal, is an offering to the spirit of the land (city/township), that is "laig dab", consisting of a small portion of the rice and meat -- typically whatever fits in a spoon.  One of the mediator will do this before or during the meal.  After the meal, the group sets off to the in-laws'.

This concludes "4.  On the day of the scheduled/planned "wedding ceremony", have a breakfast (feast), to send off the group to the inlaws' for the wedding -- "ua rooj mov noj txhawb xa cov mus ua tshoob"

Ua tsaug ...  :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on September 10, 2013, 01:14:53 AM
(Btw -- as one can clearly see by now, a "traditional Hmong wedding", is more involved and in-depth ceremonially than what "squawkers" have squawked incessantly of and about per their minimal, limited, and "general info" Google/WWW rants, links, searches, etc. ...  :2funny:.)

Funny you brought that up because Google also found this thread so it must mean that it is also full of "minimal, limited, and general info"  ;D.
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: yuknowthat on September 10, 2013, 08:00:04 AM
thanks Chi, but ntau ua luaj.. nyeem nyeem mob hlwb thiab qhov muag tag li..
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: lilly on September 10, 2013, 10:48:01 AM
+1 

Thank you, Chidorix0x.  Awaiting parts 5 and 6...   :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on September 10, 2013, 04:19:26 PM
thanks Chi, but ntau ua luaj.. nyeem nyeem mob hlwb thiab qhov muag tag li..

 :) ... look on the bright side, once you "nyeem nyeem tag", you will know all the nuts and bolts of a "traditional Hmong wedding" practically inside and out, from start to end -- over 90%, if not more.  And I can assure you, there is no book, article, or other Google/WWW link, search, or forum/blog that is this thorough -- at least none I personally know of or have seen, having seen and read most if not all of them already.  Most, as already said, mainly just focus on the "wedding ceremony" itself, and even that, they are not as thorough, explaining each step or process etc..  So be thankful and quit complaining and whining, before I quit altogether ...  :2funny: .

Trust me, it is easier to read versus having to "write", type it all up, for all of you unappreciative ill-informed youngings.  Just be grateful, Lilly was gracious enough to politely and genuinely ask, which is mainly why I am doing this ...  O0 .

Ua tsaug ...  :)
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: chidorix0x on September 10, 2013, 06:04:11 PM
Funny you brought that up because Google also found this thread so it must mean that it is also full of "minimal, limited, and general info"  ;D.

Google/WWW "squawker", here is a key word search, specifically "a traditional hmong wedding" and its link/finding(s) ...  :idiot2: ...  :2funny:

traditional Hmong marriage process - University of Wisconsin-Eau ...

linked to article:  http://www.uwec.edu/mdorsher/hmongmatters/arnold2.htm (http://www.uwec.edu/mdorsher/hmongmatters/arnold2.htm) -- :idiot2: ...  :2funny: ...  :knuppel2: (LMAO!!! )
Title: Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
Post by: theking on September 10, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
Google/WWW "squawker", here is a key word search, specifically "a traditional hmong wedding" and its link/finding(s) ...  :idiot2: ...  :2funny:

traditional Hmong marriage process - University of Wisconsin-Eau ...

linked to article:  http://www.uwec.edu/mdorsher/hmongmatters/arnold2.htm (http://www.uwec.edu/mdorsher/hmongmatters/arnold2.htm) -- :idiot2: ...  :2funny: ...  :knuppel2: (LMAO!!! )

well what do you know, even chlor0x is asking Google  ;D. Google is a friend indeed.  O0

Still much better than chlor0x old method (days late with nothing but cricket sounds).  ;D