PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: NeejYagHawj on September 17, 2015, 07:52:14 PM
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Many "educated" people in the modern world view this practice as being sexist and morally wrong. Yes, it may be. But, there are many practices in the world that can be good or bad, depending on how you look at it. Furthermore, in order to comprehend such a ritual, people need to realize why and how it was created. Many other people of different ethnic groups are practicing it, and some are fine with it. It comes down to how you view the practice; and whether or not, it is applicable in the modern world.
The problem I see now is not whether it is a good or bad practice. It is not whether it is righteous or immoral and I do see that it may not be applicable anymore. But, the problem lies in the fact that "sexist" people (especially the educators and scholars and the unlearned) do not know what the bride price is and why we practice it.
To fully understand this practice, a typical person must know the tradition matrimonial songs, along with the meaning of the songs. People cannot simply go against something that they do not understand. Buying a piece of item from your local store is totally different from how Mong practice a traditional wedding. "Can you lower the price if I buy 5 of them" is your typical "buying" strategy from your local Swap Meet. Comparing to a wedding, the words are used differently and they do not necessarily mean what they say.
Keep in mind that Mong have always remain in large group--whether it is a family, village, city, county, or province--the more the better. Taking this to the next level, Mong also interconnect themselves with other qhua and xeem in large group--again, the more the better. Unity on both spouses' side of the family is a must; and sometimes, this include "remarrying again and again to the same family." General Vang Pao practiced it perfectly, tying all the major clans together. And, I am sure Vang Pao also gave a few sisters away too--to strengthen both families furthermore.
Going back to the topic of this post, what is a bride price? Also, let it be known that this word is not correct, because it is not a bride price at all. The term is nqi mig nqe no. Again, what it is (this term is also called "Nqi paj nqi txiv, nqi tub nqi ntxhais, etc..).
NQE MIG NQE NO = the bulls/cows/buffaloes given to the parents of the bride in EXCHANGE for the bride and NYUJ PHIJ TSAB NEEG PHIJ CUAM
Nyuj phij tsab neeg phij cuam = cows/bulls/oxens/pigs etc...and MOST IMPORTANTLY KINSHIP.
Nyuj phij tsab neeg phij cuam begins with Chiyou (Txiv Yawg, also mentioned in matrimonial songs)--but that's another topic talk about.
It is not what you think folks. The bride price is an "exchanging" ritual of people, respect, and animals to strengthen both sides of the families. Furthermore, the exchanged items also includes "spoons, chickens, salt, oil, knife, etc." Many people (even the Master Mejkoob of present day) do not know that the "arrow" used during exchanging is the same arrow that we used during a funeral (I know...not anymore). In China, the wife could be apart from her birth family for years due to marriage--and people get old, but the arrow can easily be remembered and recongized by the maker (the father, usually). In essence, Mong do not sell their daughters--it is an exchange of people along with properties until DEATH DUE THEM APART for both spouses and both sides of the family, and for the sole purpose of strengthening both families.
So folks, if you must ridicule the practice, please do it correctly and blame it on unity, swapping of family members for strength, and the exchange of forever united families through life and death.
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... kekeke ... :2funny:
:idiot2:/ ::) ... this is what happens when you (or in this case, "a BASIC knowledge", aka Yag) nincompoop tries to explain -- more so FAILED to comprehend much less understand Hmong/Mong terms, words, and analogies/metaphors, especially in ceremonial songs -- literally defining/translating directly as such ... Epic Fail ... KEKEKE ... >:D
Yag, u have "no shame", like a lot of POSERs on the internet who can/have been easily amended, rectified, and even outright CITED into oblivion ... kekeke ... 8) (Examp: U claim blah-blah originated with Chiyou. That right there, shows and even proves U R FULL of "BS", more or less. Let the record/FACTS show and prove -- academically and socially via any/ALL Hmong elder Q&A and documented interviews/records -- that in any/ALL Hmong ceremonial songs, folklore, even fairy tales there is absolutely NO mention of Chiyou (now ingeniously and cleverly yet foolishly/idiotically called/rebranded as Txiv Yawg) whatsoever. Fail. Period. ... KEKEKE ... :idiot2:/ :knuppel2:) Txiv Yawg basically means "grand pa/father". Period. Nothing more. But if what you (Yag) claims that Txiv Yawg=Chiyou is true, then the following MUST be TRUE too: txiv dab laug=fruit demon/monster, nkauj ntsuab=green girl, maiv kub=golden girl, npua dev cai=pig dog laws/rules, nyuj dab=demon cow, npua laus=old pig, noj peb caug=eat three knees, tawg qeej=explode reed pipes etc. etc. ... kekeke ... :idiot2:/ ::) What utter IGNORANCE!
YES, this "ignorance" also applies to your "nqi mis nqi hno" and "nyuj phij tsab neeg phij cuam". Seriously doubt, u have a clue there whatsoever. Maybe it may hold some water, or have some truth (majorly doubt it) in the HA'Mung Leeg/Green world, but DEFINITELY NOT in the Hmoob/Moob world ... KEKEKE ... 8)
The stuff some of you "BASIC knowledge" POSERs preach is utterly :idiot2:/ ::) ... kekeke ... >:D (And leave it to ha'primitive ha'ignorant ha'clueless ha'gullible HA'Mung, Green ones mostly apparently, to naively eat it all up like a "kid at a candy buffet" ... KEKEKE ... >:D)
Forgot, this idiotic BASIC self-incriminating rhetoric/FIB is one of the lamest, if not most mentally challenged "BS" on PH to date ... kekeke ... :idiot2:/ ::) ... :knuppel2:
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ok my friend...do you have anything else to add?
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I don't know a lot about these things, but I always thought that it was meant to ensure the bribe's parents that their daughter will be loved and protected by the groom's family. For those of you that knows more about this, was I wrong about it?
txiv dab laug=fruit demon/monster
Chidorix0x, wouldn't the translation be of txiv dab laug=fruit demon/monster left
Funny how lost in translation turns out. ;D
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/\/\ ... kekeke ... :2funny:
Yes, lost/ignorance in translation, can go in any imaginative/creative (yet absolutely ) wrongful re - imagining/interpretation.
NO! The "bride price" does not nor has it ever been meant to ensure anything. That claim/re - imagining is nothing but a USA/Western selling point , to desensitize/appease the public/American opinion/palate ... KEKEKE ... >:D
( That is the truth regardless of how anyone, including some OGs, who wants to and have argued -- incorrectly, out of public/American ridicule/scrutiny -- otherwise.)
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dogmai..
in terms of "application," yes it can be translated to that. again, its all about "exchanging" to insure family unity between the two sides. this will (faith/trust) ensure that there will also be love and respect from the mom/dad of the groom.
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chi...
lets talk about this without you laughing...its starting to get weird on your part.
if you please....woul d you summary zaj "cob nyuj" from the groom's side and zaj cob nyuj phij tsab neeg phij cuab from the bride's side...along with zaj sawv kev...seb nej cov ntsiab lus ho hais li cas tiag.
note: i'm not talking about in america or present interpretation of bride price....
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Nyuj phij tsab, nees phij cuam? Khoom phij cuam rau tus vauv thiab ntxhais coj mus ua neej?
Cob nyuj lossis ncauj tsiag- lwm hnub nws tuag , kom muab tus me nyuaj tua rau sawv daws noj ua tu moo thiab pab raug faus nws.
The arrow(Xib xub)- yog khoom puav pheej rau tog vauv/ntxhais. lwm hnub muaj ib siab ob qig (1 high 2 low :P). Kom tso tub mab tub qhe mus raws kwv tij neej tsa tuaj nrog pab/xyua/hlub.
Kuv lam twv xwb...lol ;D :P
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Nyuj phij tsab, nees phij cuam? Khoom phij cuam rau tus vauv thiab ntxhais coj mus ua neej?
Cob nyuj lossis ncauj tsiag- lwm hnub nws tuag , kom muab tus me nyuaj tua rau sawv daws noj ua tu moo thiab pab raug faus nws.
The arrow(Xib xub)- yog khoom puav pheej rau tog vauv/ntxhais. lwm hnub muaj ib siab ob qig (1 high 2 low :P). Kom tso tub mab tub qhe mus raws kwv tij neej tsa tuaj nrog pab/xyua/hlub.
Kuv lam twv xwb...lol ;D :P
... kekeke ... O0
Finally, someone with actual Hmong/Mong cultural knowledge/insight VERSUS ya "BASIC knowledge" nincompoop (Yag) who is BASICally "FULL of BS" ... KEKEKE ... >:D
Nqi miv nqi hno (brideprice) yeej tsis muaj ib lo lus (obligation -- spoken, inferred, or implied) los sis cai (binding/contract) tias tus vauv thiab Niam Tais Yawm Txiv nrog rau lawd tsev neeg yuav tsum hlub, tshua, thiab saib tus ntxhais (lawd tu nyab) kom muaj nuj nqi; (that is respect, love, and care etc., even between both sides of the family -- the inlaws) mus txog hnub nws muaj 120-xyoo. That is BASICally "FULL of BS" by ignorant HA'Mung (and/or US/Western Hmong charade). And for the record, that does not mean either party, or tus vauv thiab nyab, can do whatever either. Bottom line, Yag is "FULL of BS", more or less ... KEKEKE ... ::)/ 8).
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uknowhat
there was nothing to "twv"...
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chi..
what did you think i meant when i said "unity through life and death"? did you think i meant santa claus?
if you want a good conversation, you need to start one
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dogmai..
in terms of "application," yes it can be translated to that. again, its all about "exchanging" to insure family unity between the two sides. this will (faith/trust) ensure that there will also be love and respect from the mom/dad of the groom.
[/i][/color]
... kekeke (this duh/uh HA'Mung , Yag, is "FULL of BS") ... :2funny:/ :idiot2:
Epic FAIL ... KEKEKE ... >:D/ :knuppel2:
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someone like you need to speak to someone like gracified and garfield...
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"Nqi mi nqi hno no" luag ib co laus txhais tias- niam txiv txoj me kev iab kev daws; kev khwv tu me nkauj see loj hlob tiav niam no laib?
I could be wrong.. ;D
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the purpose of this post is to show that there is no "bride price" at all; it is more of an "exchange" of people and possessions and unity through life and death. others who are less familiar of the tradition would say "but there is only one woman exchanged!" the fact of the matter is, before the groom leaves the bride's house, he already "vowed" that if he has girls, then "inlaws" will get first choice....this is why it is an exchange of people, animals, and assets.
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"Nqi mi nqi hno no" luag ib co laus txhais tias- niam txiv txoj me kev iab kev daws; kev khwv tu me nkauj see loj hlob tiav niam no laib?
I could be wrong.. ;D
... kekeke ... :2funny:/ ???
Errrr, yes wrong here (cannot mix apples and oranges yo) ... KEKEKE ... >:D
"Kev iab kev daws" yog hais txog thiab nyob rau kab mob kev nkeeg/Kab Ke Pam Tuag xwb ... kekeke ... nws tsis hais txog thiab nyob rau Kab Tshoob Kev Kos[/b][/color] ... KEKEKE ... O0/ 8) (Yog koj tsis paub los txhob txwm hais Cov Lus Nod rau ib rooj tshoob kev kawg mag :knuppel2: (nplua/chem/rhuav) ... kekeke ... :2funny:)
In Hmong/Mong ceremonial/customary rites (weddings, funerals, and even casual events/dinners like shamanism, hu plig, ua noj xwb etc.), there are definitive (acceptable and unacceptable) ettiquettes (consequences) that are upheld. Some are more stringent than others. Yes, this includes the verbiage/words used when someone is speaking. And more importanty when he is addressing dignitaries ... kekeke ... O0 Failure to adhere to these social norms/expectations can have/lead to dire consequences -- for you and others etc.. More so on you, as a "poser", aka a "BASIC knowledge" nincompoop ... KEKEKE ... >:D
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all it took was one question to you...and you failed...shoul d we leave it as that?
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the purpose of this post is to show that there is no "bride price" at all; it is more of an "exchange" of people and possessions and unity through life and death. others who are less familiar of the tradition would say "but there is only one woman exchanged!" the fact of the matter is, before the groom leaves the bride's house, he already "vowed" that if he has girls, then "inlaws" will get first choice....this is why it is an exchange of people, animals, and assets.
... kekeke ... :2funny:/ :idiot2:
Where does this "BASIC knowledge" (Yag) nincompoop get, have learned, and have being taught (and by whom or what) this "FULL of BS" crap, fecal matter, and cow-dung nonsense from ... KEKEKE ... >:D
This crap, fecal matter, and cow-dung nonsense is one of the most ridiculous, utterly most preposterous, and arguably most ignorant/idiotic "lost in translation" or garbage being re-imagined/spewed thus far on PH ... kekeke ... :idiot2: ... ::) ... :2funny:
Yag, u truly have "no shame" in self-incriminating your idiocy with your "BASIC knowledge" imaginary crap, nonsense, and garbage ... KEKEKE ... >:D (Get off, or rather "BACK ON" your meds yo ... kekeke ... :D)
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... kekeke ... :2funny:/ ???
Errrr, yes wrong here (cannot mix apples and oranges yo) ... KEKEKE ... >:D
"Kev iab kev daws" yog hais txog thiab nyob rau kab mob kev nkeeg/Kab Ke Pam Tuag xwb ... kekeke ... nws tsis hais txog thiab nyob rau Kab Tshoob Kev Kos[/b][/color] ... KEKEKE ... O0/ 8) (Yog koj tsis paub los txhob txwm hais Cov Lus Nod rau ib rooj tshoob kev kawg mag :knuppel2: (nplua/chem/rhuav) ... kekeke ... :2funny:)
In Hmong/Mong ceremonial/customary rites (weddings, funerals, and even casual events/dinners like shamanism, hu plig, ua noj xwb etc.), there are definitive (acceptable and unacceptable) ettiquettes (consequences) that are upheld. Some are more stringent than others. Yes, this includes the verbiage/words used when someone is speaking. And more importanty when he is addressing dignitaries ... kekeke ... O0 Failure to adhere to these social norms/expectations can have/lead to dire consequences -- for you and others etc.. More so on you, as a "poser", aka a "BASIC knowledge" nincompoop ... KEKEKE ... >:D
lmbo.. vim li ntawv thiaj tso rau nej cov ua paub hauj lwm thiab ntse mus ua.. es peb nyob pem no ntsia xwb mas!
Vim tsam lawm hnub wb hos sib ntsib, txog wb thib ua ke. Kuv ua thiab hais yuamkev ces Mag Kua Nceb! Lol
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lmbo.. vim li ntawv thiaj tso rau nej cov ua paub hauj lwm thiab ntse mus ua.. es peb nyob pem no ntsia xwb mas!
Vim tsam lawm hnub wb hos sib ntsib, txog wb thib ua ke. Kuv ua thiab hais yuamkev ces Mag Kua Nceb! Lol
... kekeke ... ;D/ :o
Peb tej nod tsis nrog tus ub tus nod ua ub ua nod ua paub ua ntse "Mag Kua Nceb" laid. Tiam sis peb tsuas nrog Hmoob/Moob khaws, kawm, thiab xyaum/soj ntsuam Hmoob/Moob tej kab lis kev cai (txuj ci), kev txawj kev ntse, thiab kev ua neeg/neej Hmoob/Moob xwb. Qhov zoo peb kuj tias zoo -- coj los kawm, xyaum, ua etc.. Qhov tsis zoo peb kuj ho nrog saib, nrog kho, nrog hloov kom xws lub teb lub chaws xwb ... KEKEKE ... >:D (Not like some "BASIC knowledge" posers/cuav/cuam uas hais/tham tom ntej tom qab tsis muaj paus muaj ntsis ... kekeke ... :idiot2:)
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i choose to believe in the literal term...the actual cost of the wife...she's a material I bought for myself, I own her. this would deter others from stealing her from me and she know who her master is! >:D :2funny: j/k.
... kekeke ... :2funny:/ O0
In truth (to some degree -- arguably), this is not too from the actual reality (at least historically, within and throughout SEAsia, or of that era, pre-1975 and post even) -- the sole intended application, purpose, and usage of the "bride price". Why do you suppose some Hmong/Mong girls/wives, today in the USA/West, had been and were priced as high at $25K+ (and some "greedy/stingy" parents are even arguing/fighting for those prices nowadays too; especially for the edumacated ones; doctors, lawyers, social workers, go-go dancers etc., including the pretty/prettier ones like those MISS Whatcha-Call-Ems -- the pageant winners/losers) ... KEKEKE ... >:D
(Pre-USA/West, there are known records/accounts of girls/ladies, perhaps even your own mom/s, aunts, and grandmas were priced/bought for "20-30+ Silver Bars". And that was just the "bride price", excluding all other expenses. Who knows how $much$ all that silver is in US-Dollars in today's market ... kekeke ... :o)
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chi..
you are finally correct....got smarter over 2 hours, taht's pretty good. BUT...ONLY in teh usa and of coruse, those who are after money