Advertisement

Author Topic: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings  (Read 38822 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

chidorix0x

  • Guest
Yeah like the "general" info you posted on this thread since Google was "kind enough" to provide it.  ;D

Google/WWW squawker(s) ...  can you at least provide some "general info" regarding these: ( :2funny:)

2.  Bride-napping or Bride-kidnapping - "tshoob zij" == illegal in the West/USA, though still "ok" in SEAsia
3.  Pre-arranged or Prior Engagement (Hmong do have pre-arranged marriages, but I am using it loosely here.) - "nqis tsev hais" == "ok" in the West/USA and SE Asia, though extremely rare here/USA (Note: It can also be the most "expensive".  Just depends on the bride's family or the groom's financial and social status. Some brides have been "free" because the groom is from a well-known, respected, and affluent family line,  O0)
4.  Divorcee - "tshoob poj nrauj" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
5.  Widows - "tshoob poj ntsuam" == "ok" in the West/USA and SEAsia, mainly among the elders
*** 6.  Eloping and/or Leaving Together - "tsis ua tshoob" == late 20th Century and 21st Century phenomenon, most popular in the West/USA (No comment - tsis raws Hmoob kev cai)

We/I await the Google/WWW squawker(s) report -- "mouse clicking", "key word searches", "showing another person a much faster resource(s)" -- in regards to the list above ...   8)  (We'll keep it simple, just choose "one" and report back to us ok Google/WWW squawkers.  We want to know what your Google/WWW squawking has to offer -- "general info" ...   :D  ...   :))

Ua tsaug ...   :)



Like this post: 0

Adverstisement

Offline theking

  • Elite Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 41195
  • Respect: +903
    • View Profile
Google/WWW squawker(s) ...  can you at least provide some "general info" regarding these: ( :2funny:)

Mr. Late for days Cricket sounds then gets his feelings hurt after the fact, can you at least comprehend simple text?  ;D



Like this post: 0

chidorix0x

  • Guest
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... for and per Lilly's inquiry -- mainly because she seems genuinely interested, and two, to help educate Google/WWW squawker(s), including others,  O0 .  Bare in mind, all of the steps and procedures are meant to be aligned with what is practiced traditionally, in its most acceptable and least troublesome way - historically and presently - more or less, from the start; the moment a guy wants to get married to his girlfriend/soul mate, to the end; the conclusion of the wedding ceremony -- not at the in-laws' house, but back at his, the groom's house.  And these steps or procedures, one will very unlikely find readily available via Google/WWW or any published work:  books, articles, and/or media out there to date.  (At least I have not seen nor come across any in all of my own personal research and info gathering.)

(Lilly, just so you know, I will try to be as thorough as possible despite all of the "general info" one may find peppered and scattered throughout the internet like confetti.  That said, unfortunately, all of the "verbal exchanges, phrases, and blessings" said during and throughout the wedding will not and/or cannot be provided.  There is just way too much.  More so, there are multiple variants to warrant a single entry or publication, as if it was the only way or the right way, thus it is best avoided.  But the most important verbiage will be made available, per my personal opinion ...  :))

The very first thing a guy needs to do towards his traditional Hmong wedding before he goes to get his girlfriend/soul mate and bring her home is to let his parents know.  Why?  For several obvious reasons.  They are, in no particular order:  1) so the parents know and can make preparations; like have someone to bless them - "lwm qaib" - upon their arrival if the father/mother does not know how, and more so that two men are available to go inform/send the message - "mus fi xov" 2) if the girl is "ok" - "zoo nyab" - or from a reputable/good family 3) the time/day/date is appropriate to go and get the young lady (this is a Hmong belief which I won't elaborate on).  There are others too, but these three are the main key points.

... to be continued.


« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:43:00 PM by chidorix0x »

Like this post: +1

Offline lilly

  • Sr. Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 6444
  • Gender: Female
  • Be happy!
  • Respect: +520
    • View Profile
Thank you.  Waiting for continuation.. .   :)



Like this post: 0

Offline Vandal Savage

  • Jr. Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 4005
  • Gender: Male
  • Respect: +232
    • View Profile
Chi's pretty spot on.  I would ramble on what he just said, but that'll be redundant. 



Like this post: 0

VIM

  • Guest
Here's a role Hmong men played back in the days....




Like this post: 0

chidorix0x

  • Guest
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... (fyi - VIM, your version is not quite right, as Hmong men do not surprise the girl/lady when they go "mus zij tshoob" -- unbeknownst or unexpectedly.  More times than not, the girl/lady already knows the man or suitor and that they will be bride-napped/kidnapped ...  :))

Once the young man has informed his parents' of his intentions, and the preparations are ready, he can proceed to go and acquire the girl/lady.  It is best he brings her home - to his house or an immediate uncle/relative if she lives out of town and/or out of state - before sunset, preferably by noon.  (Note:  A Hmong belief is that, during any time the girl/lady is being acquired, if an accident or "bad omen" occurs such as seeing an anomaly or similar -- like an animal crossing his path etc., then the acquisition should be postponed and set for another day or later date.  Basically, make sure nothing unusual or out of the ordinary occurs during and throughout this entire process to the point where the girl actually arrives at the home or desired destination.)

Immediately upon arriving at the home or desired destination, "DO NOT" go inside.  Wait at the doorstep until the father or uncle is ready to receive you -- the son and his bride.  Once the father/uncle opens the door, kneel down -- the son and his bride -- the bride to his left hand side.  The father/uncle will then begin the "lwm qaib", or "blessing" ceremony.  (Note:  A rooster, 3-5 joss incense sticks, a vibrant green-leafed branch, and/or a piece of charred firewood is/can be used for this blessing.)  There are two separate steps/blessings involved.  The first, is the removal or "exorcism" of unwanted things; bad spirits, sickness, and bad omens.  During this "exorcism", three circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from right to left during the incantation.  Once this is done, the second or "blessing" portion, is done next.  Four circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from left to right during the incantation.

Here are two examples of each one can say -- the "exorcism" and "blessing":

The "exorcism" incantation:
1A)  "Tawmsiv os, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiajkeeb puajtxwm,
ntawv noj ntawv haus, plig nyiaj plig kub, plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig ki, plig qoob
plig loo, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po nawb!”

“Kuv lwm no yog lwm yam phem yam tsis zoo ov, lwm sub dub sub doog, sub mob sub
nkeeg, sub tawg sub ntsa, ntsuj muam tais laim nya, ntseb tooj ntseb hlau, kev phem kev
qias, lwj liam kev nyuaj siab ntxhov plawv, kev poob nyiaj poob txiaj, kev ntsoj kev
ntsuag, kev ploj kev tuag, kev quaj kev nyiav, khawvnyeej khawvnyws, khawvntxiv
khawvnkum mus rau ntuj to qhov teb to nrog os kom mus lawm hnub coog hli kawg
fabyaj li kumhiav kom ntsej tsis hnov muag tsis pom nawb!"
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new)

2A)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm nkauj nyab plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig kiv, plig nyiaj plig kub.  Kuv lwm no, kuv tsuas lwm lwm nkauj nyab txoj kev nkauj txoj kev nraug, dab peg dab ntxaug, kev plees kev yi, dab ntxoog dab tso.  Xyob txhiaj pem hwv kom poob nthav rov nruam rooj tu nrho rov nraum ntsa.  Tsis pub txoj nkauj nyab qab tsis tseem kom taug nkauj nyab lw, luag muaj txig muaj nkawm lawm."  (From a "sifu".)

The "blessing" incantation:
1B)  “Tawmsiv os, kuv txhawb no mas txhawb (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiaj keeb puajtxwm
ov, txhawb ntawv txij ntawv nkawm, ntawv noj ntawv haus, kev txawj kev ntse, kev nom
kev tswv, kev vaj kev hwv, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po, plig tub plig ki,
plig niam plig txiv, plig qoob plig loo, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, nplej qib txhuv ntsuas, 9 vaj
mab 8 vaj sua, 9 txwg tub mab 8 txwj tub qhe, 9 leeg tub txawj 8 leej ntxhais ntse nawb
kom los nyob vam ntws li xub ntab, nroo ntws li xub muv, txoj sia kom ntev li tus dej,
lub zog kom luaj lub hauv toj, los nyob tshiab li nyiaj ci li kub, tawg poj kom tau yoog,
txi txiv tau noj nawb!”
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new)

2B)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no kuv lwm no kuv yuav lwm nkauj nyab los rau hauv vaj huav tsev.  Zaum no txiv los txiv coj niam los, niam los niam coj tub coj kiv coj plig nyiaj plig kub los, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, plig qoob plig loo.  Tub los ces tub coj kev neej kev tsav los, plhu nom plhu tswv los nrog tub nyab ua neej ib nqaj kom nto ntuj, ib ploog kom nto ntsis niaj txhiab ib txhis kom noj tsis kawg qub haus tsis kawg ntsis no laud." (From a "sifu".)

Once the "exorcism" and "blessing" is done, the couple can then enter the house.  Upon entry - take off your shoes - then have the girl/bride, take a seat in the dinning/kitchen area.  (Note:  This is a  Hmong belief -- no explanation given.)  Immediately, the son/guy will "kowtow"/bow to his father, mother, uncles etc., and say the following below.  (Provided, had the son/guy informed his parents' of his intentions, typically an elder; more times than not the one doing the "exorcism" and "blessing" will lead the son/guy during the "kowtow"/bowing.  "Hmoob hais tias, 'Ua tsaug los sis pom niam pom txiv.")  The individuals/persons to kowtow/bow are:  txiv=dad, niam=mom, elder uncles=niam hlob txiv hlob, younger uncles=niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, aunts/uncles=muam phauj yawg laus, aunts/uncles-in-laws=niam dab laug txiv dab laug, brothers=nus tij nus kwv, grandparents=poj koob yawm koob, clan/wedding leader=coj tshoob coj kos, the house spirit=niam txiv ncej dab ncej qhua.

Kowtow/bow twice per individual saying the following incantation:

1A)  "Txiv od! (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) mus txob plaub txob ntug.  Yuav poj yuav sev los rau koj txob koj txhawj.  Yuav vam koj pab no laud mog."  (From a "sifu".)

2B)  "Txiv od!  (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob ce ces yuav poj yuav sev.  Hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob tiav txha ces yuav muaj cuab muaj yi tsa.  Yuav vam khom koj pab no laud mog."  (Revised version.)

After all individuals have been acknowledged and kowtow/bowed to then this concludes this first/initial procedure/step of a traditional Hmong wedding -- the act of "bringing the girl/lady into the home/desired destination."

To be continued ...  (The next step is sending/delivering the message to the parents' of the girl/lady -- "mus fi xov".)

Ua tsaug ...   :)



Like this post: +1

VIM

  • Guest
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... (fyi - VIM, your version is not quite right, as Hmong men do not surprise the girl/lady when they go "mus zij tshoob" -- unbeknownst or unexpectedly.  More times than not, the girl/lady already knows the man or suitor and that they will be bride-napped/kidnapped ...  :))

Once the young man has informed his parents' of his intentions, and the preparations are ready, he can proceed to go and acquire the girl/lady.  It is best he brings her home - to his house or an immediate uncle/relative if she lives out of town and/or out of state - before sunset, preferably by noon.  (Note:  A Hmong belief is that, during any time the girl/lady is being acquired, if an accident or "bad omen" occurs such as seeing an anomaly or similar -- like an animal crossing his path etc., then the acquisition should be postponed and set for another day or later date.  Basically, make sure nothing unusual or out of the ordinary occurs during and throughout this entire process to the point where the girl actually arrives at the home or desired destination.)

Immediately upon arriving at the home or desired destination, "DO NOT" go inside.  Wait at the doorstep until the father or uncle is ready to receive you -- the son and his bride.  Once the father/uncle opens the door, kneel down -- the son and his bride -- the bride to his left hand side.  The father/uncle will then begin the "lwm qaib", or "blessing" ceremony.  (Note:  A rooster, 3-5 joss incense sticks, a vibrant green-leafed branch, and/or a piece of charred firewood is/can be used for this blessing.)  There are two separate steps/blessings involved.  The first, is the removal or "exorcism" of unwanted things; bad spirits, sickness, and bad omens.  During this "exorcism", three circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from right to left during the incantation.  Once this is done, the second or "blessing" portion, is done next.  Four circular motion, swirled above the couple's head, starts from left to right during the incantation.

Here are two examples of each one can say -- the "exorcism" and "blessing":

The "exorcism" incantation:
1A)  "Tawmsiv os, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiajkeeb puajtxwm,
ntawv noj ntawv haus, plig nyiaj plig kub, plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig ki, plig qoob
plig loo, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po nawb!”

“Kuv lwm no yog lwm yam phem yam tsis zoo ov, lwm sub dub sub doog, sub mob sub
nkeeg, sub tawg sub ntsa, ntsuj muam tais laim nya, ntseb tooj ntseb hlau, kev phem kev
qias, lwj liam kev nyuaj siab ntxhov plawv, kev poob nyiaj poob txiaj, kev ntsoj kev
ntsuag, kev ploj kev tuag, kev quaj kev nyiav, khawvnyeej khawvnyws, khawvntxiv
khawvnkum mus rau ntuj to qhov teb to nrog os kom mus lawm hnub coog hli kawg
fabyaj li kumhiav kom ntsej tsis hnov muag tsis pom nawb!"
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new)

2A)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no, kuv lwm no kuv tsis lwm nkauj nyab plig niam plig txiv, plig tub plig kiv, plig nyiaj plig kub.  Kuv lwm no, kuv tsuas lwm lwm nkauj nyab txoj kev nkauj txoj kev nraug, dab peg dab ntxaug, kev plees kev yi, dab ntxoog dab tso.  Xyob txhiaj pem hwv kom poob nthav rov nruam rooj tu nrho rov nraum ntsa.  Tsis pub txoj nkauj nyab qab tsis tseem kom taug nkauj nyab lw, luag muaj txig muaj nkawm lawm."  (From a "sifu".)

The "blessing" incantation:
1B)  “Tawmsiv os, kuv txhawb no mas txhawb (nkawd lub npe) ntawv nyiaj keeb puajtxwm
ov, txhawb ntawv txij ntawv nkawm, ntawv noj ntawv haus, kev txawj kev ntse, kev nom
kev tswv, kev vaj kev hwv, nyiaj ntxwg ceeb ntxwg, nyiaj po ceeb po, plig tub plig ki,
plig niam plig txiv, plig qoob plig loo, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, nplej qib txhuv ntsuas, 9 vaj
mab 8 vaj sua, 9 txwg tub mab 8 txwj tub qhe, 9 leeg tub txawj 8 leej ntxhais ntse nawb
kom los nyob vam ntws li xub ntab, nroo ntws li xub muv, txoj sia kom ntev li tus dej,
lub zog kom luaj lub hauv toj, los nyob tshiab li nyiaj ci li kub, tawg poj kom tau yoog,
txi txiv tau noj nawb!”
(From: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php/topic,339109.msg4410067/boardseen.html#new)

2B)  "Sis laud!  Hnub no kuv lwm no kuv yuav lwm nkauj nyab los rau hauv vaj huav tsev.  Zaum no txiv los txiv coj niam los, niam los niam coj tub coj kiv coj plig nyiaj plig kub los, plig tsiaj plig txhuv, plig qoob plig loo.  Tub los ces tub coj kev neej kev tsav los, plhu nom plhu tswv los nrog tub nyab ua neej ib nqaj kom nto ntuj, ib ploog kom nto ntsis niaj txhiab ib txhis kom noj tsis kawg qub haus tsis kawg ntsis no laud." (From a "sifu".)

Once the "exorcism" and "blessing" is done, the couple can then enter the house.  Upon entry - take off your shoes - then have the girl/bride, take a seat in the dinning/kitchen area.  (Note:  This is a  Hmong belief -- no explanation given.)  Immediately, the son/guy will "kowtow"/bow to his father, mother, uncles etc., and say the following below.  (Provided, had the son/guy informed his parents' of his intentions, typically an elder; more times than not the one doing the "exorcism" and "blessing" will lead the son/guy during the "kowtow"/bowing.  "Hmoob hais tias, 'Ua tsaug los sis pom niam pom txiv.")  The individuals/persons to kowtow/bow are:  txiv=dad, niam=mom, elder uncles=niam hlob txiv hlob, younger uncles=niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, aunts/uncles=muam phauj yawg laus, aunts/uncles-in-laws=niam dab laug txiv dab laug, brothers=nus tij nus kwv, grandparents=poj koob yawm koob, clan/wedding leader=coj tshoob coj kos, the house spirit=niam txiv ncej dab ncej qhua.

Kowtow/bow twice per individual saying the following incantation:

1A)  "Txiv od! (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) mus txob plaub txob ntug.  Yuav poj yuav sev los rau koj txob koj txhawj.  Yuav vam koj pab no laud mog."  (From a "sifu".)

2B)  "Txiv od!  (Change this name for each individual.)  Khwv saum koj nawb, hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob ce ces yuav poj yuav sev.  Hnub no kuv (insert son/guy's name) hlob tiav txha ces yuav muaj cuab muaj yi tsa.  Yuav vam khom koj pab no laud mog."  (Revised version.)

After all individuals have been acknowledged and kowtow/bowed to then this concludes this first/initial procedure/step of a traditional Hmong wedding -- the act of "bringing the girl/lady into the home/desired destination."

To be continued ...  (The next step is sending/delivering the message to the parents' of the girl/lady -- "mus fi xov".)

Ua tsaug ...   :)

As you can see...this pix depict a double zij pojniam, knowing that the camera is focused on them...seemed they even had a smirky look on their faces...lol.



Like this post: 0

Offline lilly

  • Sr. Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 6444
  • Gender: Female
  • Be happy!
  • Respect: +520
    • View Profile
+1.  Thank you, Chidorix0x.  Waiting for the continuation.. .   :)



Like this post: 0

chidorix0x

  • Guest
Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2013, 05:06:24 PM »
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ...  (Lilly, I have been extremely busy lately, esp. this entire last week till today, so be patient and in the end, all will be worthwhile ...  :) As a matter of fact, upon this thread's (my) conclusion, one can literally apply this information/knowledge into actual practice - as needed and where applicable ...  O0 ... whereas, the general info. peppered throughout Google/WWW is just that -- "general info." and inapplicable per actual practice more or less.)

That said, after some analysis, a thought occurred to me that the best way to further discuss this subject matter, a "traditional Hmong wedding" from start to end, in order to minimize confusion and provide the maximum comprehension, is to break up each individual component, to best explain and elaborate on each -- such as the process, procedures, and materials/things required and/or needed and used.

There are several parts or components within a "traditional Hmong wedding", not just the actual wedding ceremony itself, at the inlaws' residency or "lub rooj tshoob ua noj ua haus tij neej tij tsav tij ntsuab tij ze."  (Note:  Both the groom and bride's side has their own parts/components to prepare, do, and execute, but within this discussion, only the groom's will be explained and elaborated on.  I may or better yet someone else can discuss/explain the bride's part ...  :))

The various facets (parts/components) of a "traditional Hmong wedding" are:
1.  Go acquire the young lady to bring home for the exorcism/blessing -- "mus coj tus nkauj nyab los lwm qaib rau hauv vaj hauv tsev)
2.  Deliver the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage -- "mus fi xov"
3.  After three days, or there after, but before the "wedding ceremony" have a "bride blessing ceremony -- "puv peb tag kis, hu nkauj nyab plig"
4.  On the day of the scheduled/planned "wedding ceremony", have a breakfast (feast), to send off the group to the inlaws' for the wedding -- "ua rooj mov noj txhawb xa cov mus ua tshoob"
5.  The actual "wedding ceremony" at the inlaws' -- "noj rooj tshoob"
6.  Return home to conclude the wedding -- "rov los tsev los xaus tshoob tiam mej koob"

As one can see, there are actually six mandatory facets/parts of a "traditional Hmong wedding", which ironically one will not find per Google/WWW or any published book, article, or document that I know or am aware of, despite incessant "squawkers" squawking ignorantly ...  ;D.  For the most part, all that Google/WWW and most/all publication has to offer is focused on #5 -- providing general info. with tidbits and pieces from other parts where they see it or where it is applicable, or is excluded entirely.  Yes, I am fully aware of the fact that there are other components or parts, such as "asking for the aid of wedding mediators" -- "mus thov mej koob" -- among others, but those are rather minor compared to the six mentioned above.  And technically, those minor components/facets are actually found and are within one of the six mandatory facets/parts.

Now on to part #2:  2.  Deliver the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage -- "mus fi xov"

Remember, had the young man/son, informed his parents of his planned acquisition of the young lady, the two individuals tasked with the responsibility of "delivering the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage", will be ready upon a moment's notice to go and deliver the message - "mus fi xov".

The two individuals tasked with this job will take with them:  1) the stripped ribbon, tied in 2 or 3 knots (see previous explanation) with roughly $200 -- "lub qe rau niam rau txiv" -- $300 if there is a second mom -- "rau niam yau" etc. 2) 1-2 carton of cigarettes - "mus tsab luam yeeb" and 3) some $20 bills - "nyiaj muab rau cov txiv neej tus pab txais xo"  (Note:  Items #1 and #2 is required/mandatory. Item #3 is optional thus no explanation will be given.)

Immediately after, even before - just depends, upon bringing the young lady/girl (or bride to be) home, the two individuals will part to the young lady's parents' house to deliver the message  -- "mus fi xov".  (Yes, make sure the parents are home, especially the father, before going.  That's a no brainer.  The norm nowadays is a common courtesy phone call is made.)

Upon arriving at the girl's parents' house, knock or ring the door bell.  The first thing to ask after someone has answered the door is, "Is this the home of <girl's father's name>?" -- "Nyob zoo os, ntawm nod pus yog <Txiv ...> tsev os?"

Unless you went to a wrong location or was given an incorrect address, the two of you are being expected, so they will say, "Yes.  Come in." -- "Yog kawg mad.  Los tsev os."  (DO NOT proceed to go in right away.)

Next ask, "Are there any rituals in place, that we may not enter?" -- "Nej pus caiv os?"  (If there is, you CANNOT ENTER and will be told as such. But more times than not, there are none and you will be told and asked to enter.)

Before entering, take off your shoes.  It is a sign (Hmong etiquette) of respect.  Upon entering, the moment you see the young lady's father, the two messengers begin the "bowing/kowtow" process and say one of the following (Yes, there may be others too.):

1.  "Thov niam thov txiv laud! (Hais tus tub txiv lub npe) tus tub hu ua (hais tus tub lub npe) nod tau coj tau niam thiab txiv tus ntxhais (hais tus ntxhais/nkauj nyab lub npe) mua lawm es niam txiv tom ub thov wb ob twg tuaj thoob lub xo rau niam rau txiv paub no nawb." (From a book.)

2.  "Txiv os!  Hnub nod peb tsev Hmoob (hais lub xeem) yawg/txiv (hais tus tub txiv lub npe) tus tub hu (hais tus tub lub npe) tuaj coj tau koj tus ntxhais hu ua (hais tus ntxhais lub npe) no lawm.  Yog lid koj ua txiv txhob qhuaj txhob nrhiav.  Peb coj mus nyob muaj chaw lawm nod nawb mog. (From a "sifu".)

Continue to say the same thing and bow/kowtow to each of these individuals:  mom=niam, niam hlob txiv hlob, niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, muam phauj yawg laus, niam dab laug txiv dab laug, nus tij nus kwv, poj koob yawg koob, tus coj tshoob coj kos, niam txiv ncej dab ncej qhua.

Once complete, take a seat and wait a minute or two, then immediately open a carton of cigarettes and give 2-each to the father per individual/persons mentioned above -- exactly as the ones in the bowing/kowtow.  Lastly, give another 2-cigarettes and ask the following (about who is the family's/clan's wedding head/leader -- "tus coj tshoob coj kos"):

"Lus mas yuav hais li no rau koj ua txiv.  Koj zam txoj kev dab rau wb os twg tub fiv xov thiab laud mog.  Luag tej laus piv txoj lug hais tias lub hnub tsis zoo twb lub hli lo lus tsis zoo twb niam twb txi.  Koj yog niam yog txiv lawm tsis tsim nyog yuav los nug koj laud.  Tab sis koj txhob xav lis cas.  Niam txiv tus coj noj coj ua coj tshoob coj kos nyob rau qhov twg.  Yuav vam koj ua txiv ho qhia rau wb ob tug tub thoob xo es wb hos mus raws tuaj.  Hnub nod yawg/txiv (hais npe) tus tub tuaj coj tau neb ua niam ua txiv tus ntxhais hu ua (hais npe) no lawm.  Yog lid wb tuaj thoob lub xo rau neb ua niam ua txiv mas yuav vam nws tuaj txais lub me xo no laud mog."  (This is expected and even required/mandatory, being part of this process, even if the inquired/said person/individual -- "tus coj tshoob coj kos" -- has already arrived, is present, and sitting next to the father or among you.  If they have not arrived or whatever reasons, then it is your responsibility to go and fetch him, unless told otherwise.)

Once this question has been asked, the father's response, will lead to what needs to be done next. Let's say the person, "tus coj tshoob coj kos", is present and has been pointed out by the father.  One then immediately approach him and give him 2-cigarettes each, exactly what was done previously for all individual/persons, ending with 2-cigarettes for him, or the one receiving the message -- "ib kab (2-cigaretttes) rau tus tsawb tshoob tsawb kos".

Next give another 2-cigarettes to him again along with the stripped ribbon with its tied knots and say the following:

"Lus mas yuav hais li no rau koj tus tsawb tshoob tsawb kos los yog tus coj.  Hnub no niam txiv xeem (hais xeem) tus tub tuaj coj tau niam txiv tus ntxhais hu ua (hais tus ntxhais/nkauj nyab lub npe) no lawm.  Yog lid niam txiv txooj xeem (hais xeem) tau thov kom wb tuaj pab thoob lub xo rau niam txiv.  Yog li qhov me no yog txoj me siv ceeb tuaj thoob lub xo rau niam thiab txiv.  Tog no yog $60 ntaus txhuv tsis paub fab hno rau ib tsoom niam hlob txiv hlob, niam ntxawm txiv ntxawm, poj koob yawg koob, nus tij nus kws.  Hos tog no yog $20 ntaus lub me xo rau niam rau txiv kom txhob quaj txhob nrhiav no nawb mog."

After this, pull out the $200-$300 etc., and say the following:

"Lus mas hais lid no thiab.  Qhov me no yog tam li ob (or peb, yog muaj niam yau etc.) lub me qe rau niam rau txiv xwb.  Txawm hais tias tsis raug ntsej raug muag los kom niam txiv txhob xav li cas txhob tu siab no mog."

Then give $20 to the person as well and say:

"Qhov me nod yog ib kab me yeeb rau koj.  Hnub no vam koj tuaj tsawv tshoob tsawb kos los cuag li tsis muaj ib kab zoo yeeb rau koj los txhob tu siab no mog."  (Note:  If there are other adult men present, from the bride's side present, then give each $20 as well.)

Once complete, the two messengers (ob tug tub fiv xo), will have to bow/kowtow all the person/individuals again, saying the following:

"Thov txiv os!  Hnub no Niam Txiv Xeem (hais xeem) tuaj coj tau koj ua niam ua txiv tus ntxhais lawm yog lis yuav tsawg koj ib sab tes no nawb mog.  Koj ua niam ua txiv txhob quaj txhob nrhiav mog."  (Note:  Loosely translated for non-literate Hmong, it means, "Father, please forgive us. Today, the "insert surname) clan has wed your daughter thus you are short one household member and/or helper.  Please do not cry/be sad or pursue/look for her.")

After this, take a short one to two minute break, then proceed to ask the person receiving the message when the family of the bride is available to schedule the "wedding ceremony" -- "seb niam txiv xyeej lub ncaij lub nyoog twg yuav tuaj ntsuas dej ntsuas txhuv tis ntsuab tis ze, ua tshoob noj kos".  If he knows or has already confirmed this with the bride's father/family, then you will be informed; otherwise other plans and arrangements will have to be made.  Whichever, you will be informed prior to your departure.

Once you have been informed accordingly then excuse yourself and proceed to vacate the residency -- "los mus tsev xaus fi xov".  However, do not forget to INFORM/TELL, either in person back at their home or via phone, the groom's father/family about any discrepancies, mistakes, challenges, obstacles, and especially the scheduled date of the "wedding ceremony" that you ran into, have been told, or had to resolve ("lam") and/or agreed upon so that during the day of the "wedding ceremony" any and all things can be dealt with accordingly, smoothly, and peacefully -- "kom tsis muaj lus ntaug lus xaiv".

This concludes "2.  Deliver the message to her parents' of her elopement/marriage -- "mus fi xov"."

Ua tsaug ...  :)



Like this post: +1

Offline lilly

  • Sr. Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 6444
  • Gender: Female
  • Be happy!
  • Respect: +520
    • View Profile
Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2013, 05:45:09 PM »
+1.  Wow, ua tsaug, Chidorix0x.  Will you continue?  Thanks!



Like this post: 0

chidorix0x

  • Guest
Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2013, 08:18:22 PM »
+1.  Wow, ua tsaug, Chidorix0x.  Will you continue?  Thanks!

 ;) ... no problem.  It seems you are genuinely interested and want to know; thus all the relevant info., insight, and knowledge/practices will be bestowed for everyone, to its finale -- where anyone can actualize and apply this information/knowledge where or as needed ...  O0.  Just be patient because it takes time to write all of this up. A single sitting (entry) will not do it much justice unless you want the Google/WWW "general info" and "bare minimum near inapplicable" version ...  :D.

(Speaking of which, where and why don't the Google/WWW "squawkers" provide us with their "key word searches", "mouse clicking", and "doc/video links" because I, for one, want to further my knowledge/understanding of Hmong's "traditional wedding" practice/ceremony -- from its start to its conclusion ...  ;D. Surely there must be "tons" of Google/WWW "general info." out there? We want to see, know, and learn ...  :2funny: ... :-X.)

Ua tsaug ...  :)



Like this post: 0

Offline DuMa

  • Elite Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 13474
  • Gender: Male
  • -(>^_^<)- 052806
  • Respect: +551
    • View Profile
Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2013, 08:21:58 PM »
go chi

show them how serious ph is all about..

with that in mind, I have not read anything  much in this thread here.  I just wanted to stop by and say hi.  see you around 



Like this post: 0
X_____________ ______________ ______________ ___

Offline theking

  • Elite Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 41195
  • Respect: +903
    • View Profile
Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2013, 09:10:28 PM »

(Speaking of which, where and why don't the Google/WWW "squawkers" provide us with their "key word searches", "mouse clicking", and "doc/video links" because I, for one, want to further my knowledge/understanding of Hmong's "traditional wedding" practice/ceremony --


Because "chlorox" still fails to comprehend simple text. ;D



Like this post: 0

chidorix0x

  • Guest
Re: Hmong wedding process and the different roles people play in Hmong weddings
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2013, 02:12:57 PM »
A traditional Hmong wedding continued ... (Upon completing "delivering the message to the girl/lady's parents of her elopement/marriage" -- "mus fi xov" -- the groom's family must then make preparation and schedule a day (feast) to have the "bride blessing ceremony" -- "hu nkauj nyab plig".  Some newly wed brides nowadays, and even some who were wed years ago, have said or claim that their inlaws, or the family they have wed into, do not and claim they do not perform the "bride blessing ceremony".  This is pure "BS".  Every Hmong clan/group, regardless of whether they are Green or White or whatever group -- "pab pawg" -- including Hmong-Christians culturally, historically, and traditionally have all performed the "bride blessing ceremony" whenever a son of theirs gets married -- "mus coj thiab yuav tau luag ib twg ntxhais los ua poj ua se."  (Note: If the groom's family does not perform the "bride blessing ceremony", and if word of this gets back to the bride's father/family, then they have a right to penalize - "nplua" - the groom and/or his family, at their discretion according to Hmong culture/custom.  In the old days, back in SEAsia, if the groom/family fails to "hu nkauj nyab plig", they are outright penalized - if not worst.)  Additionally, at the "bride blessing ceremony", not only is the bride "honored", or "khi tes", but so is the groom - "tus vauv", the best man - "tub phij laj", the bride's maid - "niam tais/ntxhais txais ntsuab", and the two wedding mediators - "ob twg mej koob".  At this point, obviously the best man, bride's maid, and two wedding mediators have already been asked and tasked with their roles/responsibilities -- "cov neeg nod twb thov tau lawm.")

Now let us see what the "bride blessing ceremony" -- "hu nkauj nyab plig" -- all entails.  This is step #3:  3.  After three days, or there after, but before the "wedding ceremony" have a "bride blessing ceremony -- "puv peb tag kis, hu nkauj nyab plig".

The "bride blessing ceremony" requires at minimum two key things, or animals, that is; a whole pig and a pair of chickens - a hen and a rooster.  Yes, the hen is representative of the "bride" and the rooster of the "groom".  As for what the feast or food dishes comprise of, that is entirely up to the groom's family.  There are no requirements whatsoever.  However, "hot pepper", whether a sauce or dish is traditionally forbidden.  The Hmong belief is that because "hot peppers" are hot, that this will lead to a lot of arguments and fighting between the newly wed if it is served and consumed at this ceremony, and especially at the "wedding ceremony" -- "rooj tshoob".  Of course, I have attended a lot of these feast and "hot pepper" was served with no long-term effects or repercussion, so it is a matter of personal preference, choice, or belief.  That said, I have never attended a "wedding ceremony" - "rooj tshoob" - where "hot peppers" were served and consumed.  It is definitely a "NO-NO" at the "wedding ceremony".

One very important piece of the pig when butchered is to save the "tail".  The "tail" is then boiled and presented at the table where an elder will gaze into the fortune or future of the newly wed.  The rest of the pig can be used however to make the various dishes for consumption.  (Saib kw tw npua.  No, I do not know how to do this nor do I have a clue as I have never learned nor asked about it.)

As for the pair of chickens when butchered, except for all of the internal organs which are removed, the chickens must remain whole -- meaning with its head and feet fully intact.  Again, they are boiled and presented at the table where an elder will gaze into the fortune or future of the newly wed.  (Saib qaib.  No, I do not know how to do this nor do I have a clue as I have never learned nor asked about it.)

The "bride blessing ceremony" is exactly like any other Hmong "blessing ceremony" -- "hu plig".  The focal point or person being "blessed" or "honored" in this case is the "bride", or "nkauj nyab" along with the persons mentioned earlier, the groom, best man, maid of honor etc..

Once the table is set, with all persons seated accordingly, the father of the groom or an uncle will be the first to make a formal announcement, stating that his son has taken a wife and they everyone has been invited to come and rejoice their union and to "help tie a string to bless them towards their future as husband and wife".  (Note:  It is paramount that all the dishes served on the table, regardless of what dish it is, must be "EVEN" numbered, meaning only 4, 6, 8, or 10 etc. dishes are to be served.  ODD numbered is forbidden.  Either add or subtract a dish to make it "EVEN".)

After the announcement, an individual will lead the "hand tying ceremony" -- "pib txheej txheem khi tes".  (I suppose I will try and go through this as thoroughly as I can as this is a "KEY" aspect of the "bride blessing ceremony".  Basically, this is really what the "blessing ceremony" is all about or its sole purpose.)  The required persons/individuals who are seated at the forefront of the table, "pem hauv rooj", with specific roles/responsibilities are:  1. the blesser - "tus cheb plig/tes", can be a man or woman, 2. the pig tail divination - "tus saib tw npua", 3. the pair of chicken divination - "tus saib qaib" - two persons are tasked with this as there are two chicken, a hen and a rooster, and finally 4. the spirit guide - "tus xa plig" or "nto dej".  The individual leading the "hand tying ceremony" will pour two shot-glasses/cups of liquor/beer and place them in a plate and hand them to each of the persons mentioned.  He will ask and task them each with the required job they are to perform.  He is done at this point.  The newly wed couple then will be asked to come forth before the "blesser".  The "blesser" will then take the "hand tying strings" -- those bundles neatly tied and aligned on several sticks -- and begin to bless the couple.  If the best man, bride's maid, and the two wedding mediators are present, they can also be blessed at this time as well.  The couples must reach out with both their hands -- palms faced down.  After the blesser's "blessing incantation", the "hand tying strings" are passed out to everyone in attendance -- men, women, and/or children -- whoever wants to "tie the hands of the couple".  (Note:  It is also customary to tie the hands of these persons as well:  best man, maid of honor, the two wedding mediators, and the mom and dad of the groom.)  The couple is mandatory.

Here is an example of what one can say when tying the bride and groom:  (Note:  There is no right or wrong way in Hmong culture/custom, in terms of what one says when tying someone's hand, as long as it is relevant to the occasion and individual or specifically the "blessing ceremony".  Basically, the more you know, Hmong blessing words that is, and the more in-depth your words, the better.  However, if you do not know these "blessing incantation", then say what you feel is best and that is just as good.  Oh, I forgot to mention that it is good practice/etiquette to give anywhere between $1-$20 when tying someone's hand -- $5 is the norm.  The money can be given directly to the individual(s) or placed in the bowl provided.  Sorry, but the other "blessing incantation", for the best man, bride's maid, etc., will not be provided.  Again, as long as you say what is relevant to that individual, then you are good.)

For the bride: 
"Sis aud!  Hnub nod zoo hnub.  Hnub nod zoo nyoog.  Hnub nod kuv yog Vaj Tsab xeem Lis.  Kuv khi koj nkauj nyab tes.  Kuv yuav khi koj los rau hauv vaj hauv tsev.  Kuv khi koj los ua <insert groom's name> tus txhij tus nkawm, los ua nws poj nws se.  Kuv khi koj los nyob dawb nyob huv los muaj tub muaj ki muaj ntxhais muaj ci los puv vaj puv tsev, los tsis muaj hmab dawm tes hlua dawm taw.  Koj yuav los ua ib twg zoo nyab los ua ib twg zoo niam vaj niam tsev no laud."

For the groom:
"Sis aud!  Hnub nod zoo hnub.  Hnub nod zoo nyoog.  Hnub nod kuv yog Vaj Tsab xeem Lis.  Kuv khi koj tub/tij laug/kwv <insert name> tes.  Kuv khi koj los rau hauv niam txiv vaj niam txiv tsev.  Koj niam koj txiv zoo siab zoo plawv muaj tsiaj muaj hno los ua kev zoo siab rau koj.  Hnub nod koj muaj txhij muaj nkawm yuav poj yuav se.  Kuv khi koj los nyob dawb nyob huv los muaj tub muaj ki muaj ntxhais muaj ci los puv vaj puv tsev, los tsis muaj hmab dawm tes hlua dawm taw.  Koj yuav los ua ib twg zoo tub zoo txiv no laud."

Again, there is no right or wrong way to say the "blessing incantation", as long as it is relevant to the "blessing ceremony" and specifically to the individual.

After everyone has finished tying the hands of the individual(s), the individuals tasked with looking at the divinity of the pig tail and pair of chickens will do so.  Once they have deciphered the divinity, they will drink their two shot-glasses as confirmation of their divination.  Next the "blesser" will again "bless" the couple.  Actually, this is an "exorcism" to cleanse the couple and purify them.  The couple will come forth before the "blesser" with both hands extended out, this time the palms will be faced up, as the "blesser" cleanse and purify them.  The string used by the blesser to cleanse the couple, once the "incantation purification" is done, will then be lit afire momentarily as if to burn away any and all impurity or evil spirits/omens, and then put out right away in a glass of water.  This is the very glass of water that the "spirit guide" will be given and had been asked and tasked to toss away or set free later when the time comes.  Immediately, those sitting at the forefront of the table will be asked to praise or support -- "txhawb plig".  This is where the pig tail, pair of chickens, bowl of money, candle, and the fruit/floral arrangement in its big bowl/plate is lifted off the table and given to the bride and groom along with their other recipients/helpers, helping to receive these items.  The bride and groom must take everything and place them in their bedroom.  (Note:  The candle must remain burning until the entire "blessing ceremony" is complete.  It cannot be put out prior to that time.)  Once this is done, then it is time for the "spirit guide" to take the "glass of water" and go toss it away outside -- casting out any and all impurity/evil spirits/omen.  He must say an "incantation" when doing this.  It is merely not just the act of tossing or pouring the water out of the glass.

Finally, everyone seated at the table along with everyone else present can begin enjoying the feast, or food at the table.  Those not seated at the table typically eat buffet style and there is no ceremonial process involved.  However, those seated at the table, will have to abide by the etiquette there according to Hmong culture/custom; which is a procedural ceremonial practice -- "cov txheej txheem cawv" -- the drinking etiquette.  Historically and traditionally, there are 6-8 of these drinks -- "txheej txheem cawv" -- but nowadays, it has been cut to 4 more times than not.  And those sitting at the table do not start eating till the first set of drinks is announced.  (Note:  The correct etiquette of drinking at the table or any table for that matter for any Hmong-centric cultural occasion will not be explained here.  Just pay very close attention to the two who initiated the drinks, copying them, and you cannot go wrong.)  The four required set of drinks -- "txheej txheem caw" -- are:  1.  Union of the couple, or receiving of the bride -- "tus cawv tau nyab" 2. the blessing of the bride -- "tus cawv hu plig" 3. the hand tying -- "tus cawv khi tes", and 4. thanks to everyone for attending, helping, etc. -- "tus cawv ua sawv daws, kwv tij neej tsa tsaug".

Either before or during the final, or fourth drink, the groom's father will make a formal announcement of the "wedding ceremony" day at the inlaws' - if one has already been decided and scheduled.  He will ask that everyone attend.  Once this is done, this concludes the feast at the table and the "blessing ceremony of the bride" -- "rooj mov hu nkauj nyab plig".  The next step is to prepare for, attend, and conclude the "wedding ceremony" on the set date at the inlaws' -- "mus noj rooj tshoob".

This concludes "3.  After three days, or there after, but before the "wedding ceremony" have a "bride blessing ceremony -- "puv peb tag kis, hu nkauj nyab plig"."

Ua tsaug ...  :)

(Btw -- as one can clearly see by now, a "traditional Hmong wedding", is more involved and in-depth ceremonially than what "squawkers" have squawked incessantly of and about per their minimal, limited, and "general info" Google/WWW rants, links, searches, etc. ...  :2funny:.)


« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 04:52:32 PM by chidorix0x »

Like this post: +1

 

Advertisements