How many color clans are there?

[HUNG TU LO]

HAHAHA  ...  gotta love how some people like to preach the whitewashed "gospel", aka lack of sound global scholarships.  But as you mentioned, "You are entitled to your own opinion  ..."

You never finished my quote. The last part being "...but you are not entitled to your own facts." Just like you said:

Specifically regarding the Hmong (Miao) Script, there is no conclusive scientific data to confirm this.  However, there are no conclusive scientific data to disprove it either.

And because it (currently) cannot be disproven (or proven), to say that it does exist, is no longer an educational/historical discussion. It has become another "You can't disprove God therefore, I say that God does exist." This has no place in the discussion of history as history is based on documentation, facts, etc. You are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts. You can't choose what should and could become fact because facts are universal and non-arbitrary. People are writing these walls of text using elaborate words, puffing their chest to make themselves look intelligent, and then totally blur the lines between fact and opinion, science and belief, and philosophical vs historical.

It doesn't matter how we came to not have a writing system. It's pretty obvious when looking at all world civilizations that an organized writing system usually comes after a long stable period of agriculturalis m which allows for advancement of culture, leisure, technology, government, etc. Ancient Khmer, Lansang, Siam empires all went through this transformation . Somehow, Hmong wasn't able to go through the process to allow for a writing system to develop. The issue here isn't about what caused the Hmong not to have a writing system, whether it was egregious that the greater Chinese dynasties did this to Hmong, or any of that. The issue here is, did Hmong ever have an organized writing system?

Like I said, shit have been unearthed in areas where ancient Mesopotamian civilizations existed and writing systems have been documented. We are talking civilizations when they were making clay plates, ancient Hmong and Chinese ancestors were still hooting and hollering like baboons. You want to convince me that every single detail of a Hmong writing system was systematically wiped out and that was the mission of the whole Han ethnic? Somehow, you are convinced that there was a conspiracy in which Chinese dynasties spent so much resources to wipe out Hmong writing system? News to idiots: Hmong weren't the only ones to suffer under dynastic rule. Every ethnic group that did not assimilate into Han suffered. More news for idiots: peasant and poor Han suffered as well. If you weren't rich and powerful and were in bed with government officials, life sucked. Even more news: all Hmoob dawb/lees are Miao but not all Miao are Hmoob.

I'd like to reiterate:

The reason why many Hmong have a hard time admitting or realizing that we never had an organized writing system is because of politics and elitism. We don't want to look like a culture of "savages". We wanted to fast-foward and make the world believe we have always been acculturated, assimilated into the international modern world, aware of the issues of local and world politics and economics, and that we had moved seamlessly with human civilizations.

AKA peb xav muaj tebchaws. Thanks for injecting this shit ideology into our people, Vang Pao and Lyfoung family.

Only an ignorant Chinese will call me Miao who deserves a fist to the face. Some Han Chinese respect our name and some don't.

This is the politicization and elitism I am talking about. This would be like someone going up to a person who has Navajo or Cherokee blood and saying "Oh, you're Native American, I see." and then that Navajo/Cherokee throwing a fit talking about "This land was not America until Europeans arrived so I'm 'indigenous', specifically Navajo/Cherokee! Get it right!" Uhhhhh, the context in which someone is saying "Native American" isn't implying all of these "native" issues. All they were doing is trying to comprehend what it is that you are. This is just like the "oriental" issue. It's all politics, it's all elitism, it's all bullshit.

[chidorix0x]

You never finished my quote. The last part being "...but you are not entitled to your own facts." Just like you said:

And because it (currently) cannot be disproven (or proven), to say that it does exist, is no longer an educational/historical discussion. It has become another "You can't disprove God therefore, I say that God does exist." This has no place in the discussion of history as history is based on documentation, facts, etc. You are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts. You can't choose what should and could become fact because facts are universal and non-arbitrary. People are writing these walls of text using elaborate words, puffing their chest to make themselves look intelligent, and then totally blur the lines between fact and opinion, science and belief, and philosophical vs historical.

It doesn't matter how we came to not have a writing system. It's pretty obvious when looking at all world civilizations that an organized writing system usually comes after a long stable period of agriculturalis m which allows for advancement of culture, leisure, technology, government, etc. Ancient Khmer, Lansang, Siam empires all went through this transformation . Somehow, Hmong wasn't able to go through the process to allow for a writing system to develop. The issue here isn't about what caused the Hmong not to have a writing system, whether it was egregious that the greater Chinese dynasties did this to Hmong, or any of that. The issue here is, did Hmong ever have an organized writing system?

Like I said, shit have been unearthed in areas where ancient Mesopotamian civilizations existed and writing systems have been documented. We are talking civilizations when they were making clay plates, ancient Hmong and Chinese ancestors were still hooting and hollering like baboons. You want to convince me that every single detail of a Hmong writing system was systematically wiped out and that was the mission of the whole Han ethnic? Somehow, you are convinced that there was a conspiracy in which Chinese dynasties spent so much resources to wipe out Hmong writing system? News to idiots: Hmong weren't the only ones to suffer under dynastic rule. Every ethnic group that did not assimilate into Han suffered. More news for idiots: peasant and poor Han suffered as well. If you weren't rich and powerful and were in bed with government officials, life sucked. Even more news: all Hmoob dawb/lees are Miao but not all Miao are Hmoob.

I'd like to reiterate:

AKA peb xav muaj tebchaws. Thanks for injecting this shit ideology into our people, Vang Pao and Lyfoung family.


This is the politicization and elitism I am talking about. This would be like someone going up to a person who has Navajo or Cherokee blood and saying "Oh, you're Native American, I see." and then that Navajo/Cherokee throwing a fit talking about "This land was not America until Europeans arrived so I'm 'indigenous', specifically Navajo/Cherokee! Get it right!" Uhhhhh, the context in which someone is saying "Native American" isn't implying all of these "native" issues. All they were doing is trying to comprehend what it is that you are. This is just like the "oriental" issue. It's all politics, it's all elitism, it's all bullshit.

LMAO!  By your logical and rationale, God definitely exist as well as a Hmong (Ancient) script, kingdom, ruler/king, and/or a developed/ancient civilization.  Both of which do in fact have archeological records, sites, artifacts, and evidence/data to validate, and/or confirm their existence.

GOD:  The Bible (Torah/Quran) filled with testimonies (witnesses etc.).  Archeological sites (artifacts) found throughout the Middle East. And the most tangible of all, Christ himself in flesh and blood -- the son of God.  (  ... kekeke  ...    )

Hmong Script (kingdom/civilization):  Let the records show that none of these archeological finds are Chinese, and that some have been argued (proven) to be Hmong -- or "Miao" if you/anyone wants to go that route too.  From the earliest to the latest, they are: the Tortoise shell scripts (forget exactly what they are called), the tomb of Lady Dai, the Chu state/kingdom, San Miao, and the Kingdom/(king) of Chi You.  All of these ancient archeological finds/ruins (site and artifacts) one or more of the following: non-Chinese scripts/writings, civilized utensils (cups, musical instruments, money, tools etc.), systems of politics/agriculture, a king/ruler, and defined areas of settlement/states/provinces (cities, houses, buildings, and fortresses).  (  ...  kekeke  ...    )

Instead of being so "whitewashed" and entrenched and engrossed in US-narrow-mindedness, or HA'Mungness, perhaps it might do you some good to be more globally conscious, though not necessarily schooled  ...   

IMHO, there is no such thing as an "Almighty God" -- define that however you want.  As for a Hmong (Ancient) Script, it is inconclusive either way. The simplest rationale (argument) would be that today, in the USA, where there is complete freedom to embrace one's heritage: language, culture, religion etc. etc., the US-Hmong (HA'Mung) cannot even read and write their RPA Script (Ntawv Hmoob); being illiterates, and most can barely speak their native language.  In another decade or two, or less even, the US-Hmong (HA'Mung) will become completely oblivious to the Hmong language/RPA writing, and will thus claim they never had a language, or RPA script (Ntawv Hmoob)  ... haha!  And this madness took less than 100 years, where there is freedom (even encouragement) to embrace one's heritage/ancestry.  Compare that to an oppressed (openly persecuted) people, the Hmong-Chinese of China, who not 10 years, not 100 years, not 1000 years, but over 4000-5000+years of being oppressed (banned, on deathly terms) NOT to speak, read and write, and practice any and all of their unique heritage/ancestry is very compelling.  Long story short, the Hmong-Chinese cannot even speak their native language period today, in the 21st century. So the argument, " Hmong weren't the only ones to suffer under dynastic rule.", is just pure ignorance. It went beyond just "suffering".  Only today, have some rights (ancestral privileges) been given back to all ethnic minorities in China.  To make a long story short, the "XiongNu", a once civilized people, were completely annihilated into EXTINCTION in Chinese history.  We only knew they existed due to Chinese historical records.  Had the Chinese never recorded the "XiongNu", they minus well be legends of Gods and Goddesses the likes of Mount Olympus, or ETs for that matter  ...  kekeke  ...   

[HUNG TU LO]

The bible isn't fact and/or proof that God exists.

  

Again, I thought this was a historical discussion and not about some ancient Hmong kingdom where the ruler, Chi You, carried and fought with a 100lbs sword and breathed fire and fog.

 

[dogmai]

The bible isn't fact and/or proof that God exists.

  

Again, I thought this was a historical discussion and not about some ancient Hmong kingdom where the ruler, Chi You, carried and fought with a 100lbs sword and breathed fire and fog.

 

Facts can be used subjectively as evidence to back up either truth or "false" claims. For this reason, a lot of facts are hard to determine. Religious groups and governments have been doing this for years.

Just for kicks, here are some facts.

"It is a fact that god exist in the mind of theists."
"It is a fact that the bible is proof of the existence of Christianity."
"It is a fact that the bible is real."

[HUNG TU LO]

Facts can be used subjectively.. .a lot of facts are hard to determine.

Then that is not a fact.

Fact: it is currently 65F degrees in St. Paul, MN, 10:52pm central time.

It is universal. It is eternal and never changes. It is time-stamped into the space-time continuum. It is non-arbitrary. It doesn't matter if you tell someone it is 65F in St. Paul and they don't believe it because it is a fact and it doesn't require belief - it is non-arbitrary. It was, it is, it will be, eternal. That is a fact.

Seriously, I feel like I'm in grade school telling you guys what is a fact. If God exists, where is God? This discussion is pathetically based on myth, beliefs, and romanticism. It was never an historical discussion.

[dogmai]

Then that is not a fact.

Fact: it is currently 65F degrees in St. Paul, MN, 10:52pm central time.

It is universal. It is eternal and never changes. It is time-stamped into the space-time continuum. It is non-arbitrary. It doesn't matter if you tell someone it is 65F in St. Paul and they don't believe it because it is a fact and it doesn't require belief - it is non-arbitrary. It was, it is, it will be, eternal. That is a fact.

Seriously, I feel like I'm in grade school telling you guys what is a fact. If God exists, where is God? This discussion is pathetically based on myth, beliefs, and romanticism. It was never an historical discussion.

Hahaha.

So you don't know what is "fact" and what is not? Got it. The three examples I listed are indeed facts. Do you need to go back to grade school and learn how to read again?

Those three examples are what religious groups have done using real facts to convince people to believe in their religion. If you still don't understand, just let me know.

[HUNG TU LO]

Mathematics, Physics, and Quantum Theories plus any number of science (sound science/academics) FACTUALLY proves you're an ignoramus in making that idiotic superlative  ...  *LOLz*)

So math, physics, and quantum theories can dispute:

Fact: it is currently 65F degrees in St. Paul, MN, 10:52pm central time.

I'd eat my own shit if you can show that this isn't fact.

      

[dogmai]

Alright hung,

I'll be serious now. Since you're clueless like some religious people who you hate so much, I'll show it to you. Remember, free school lesson here.

1. "It is a fact that god exist in the mind of theists."
Theism
Greek - theos --> god

> Prove that the statement isn't a fact. Prove that theists don't believe that a god(s) exist.


2. "It is a fact that the bible is proof of the existence of Christianity."
Christians, followers of the religion, Christianity believes that the bible is the word of god. It's basically their history book.

> Prove that the statement isn't a fact. Prove that the bible isn't part of Christianity and that the religion of Christianity doesn't exist.


3. "It is a fact that the bible is real."
There is a book that usually comes in a black cover but not always. In that book, there are some stories. Most book stores will have the book. The title is usually called, The Bible.

> Prove that the statement isn't a fact. Tomorrow go to a book store and find it. When you have it, grab a different book and compare the two. Does they both open up? Does both have pages in them? Don't worry, I'm not asking you to read it, what's in it doesn't matter. However, what I am asking you to do is....
Prove that the one called, The Bible, isn't a real book.

That's your homework for tonight. I'll wait for your argument that the three statements I used as examples aren't facts.

[HUNG TU LO]

To be honest, I didn't read over your shit because obviously, I wasn't discussing with you and I was discussing with chidori. I simply glanced over and saw "fact" and "God" and that's that.

Yes, it is a fact that the bible is real - no shit Sherlock. Yes, it is a fact that people believe in God - no shit Sherlock. These are observable facts.

And your point is? .............. .............. .

[dogmai]

To be honest, I didn't read over your shit because obviously, I wasn't discussing with you and I was discussing with chidori. I simply glanced over and saw "fact" and "God" and that's that.

Yes, it is a fact that the bible is real - no shit Sherlock. Yes, it is a fact that people believe in God - no shit Sherlock. These are observable facts.

And your point is? .............. .............. .

The point is that you are as ignorant like those religious people you hate so much. You just admitted yourself.

Assumption is mother of duck ups. 

[dogmai]

I'd eat my own shit if you can show that this isn't fact.

      

Hahaha. Funny how you played the word game so you won't have to eat your own shit.

This is also a fact.

Fact: it is currently 66F degrees in St. Paul, MN, 10:52pm central time. (same day)

Can you explain  that?

[King_Kong]

Reporter,

Here's something for your (everyone's) amusement.  (See video link.)  Yeah, it is a little off topic, but related nevertheless since we started talking about the various dialects of the Hmong (Miao).  (What was a startling revelation for me was how this documentary reiterated some things my dad had told me about the LOST Hmong (Miao) Script -- like 20+years ago.  I had always been skeptical of what he had told me -- that maybe my dad probably made those things up, given that it was not until recently, we (the world) knew, or believed, and had always stated the Hmong (Miao) never had a written language until Hmong RPA was invented between 1951-53 in SE Asia.)  Imagine my shock, surprise, and disbelief/belief when SPollard who in the 1800s, had been made aware of the LOST Hmong (Miao) Script by the Miao people -- documenting that insight.  Anyway, enjoy.

***  It is amazing the kind of stuff one can find on the internet nowadays.  Or in this case, how these things (facts, research, documentaries) keeps finding me ... HAHAHA!  (I think I know WHY now ...  )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QOjYLOlKL8

The linguistic uniqueness of our dialect. I almost burst into tears as I recognize those words. One thing I noticed (other than the heavy chinese accent) is the way how it's mostly sung with "past" tense"....

[chidorix0x]

Hey hung said we should go back to grade school, but since I'm too old for it, I brought the school to him.

BTW, I'm a guy. Read the name backwards and you will see. It's shows irony in the name.  it's filled with opposites.

You can deal with this ignorant HA'Mung  ...  kekeke  ...   

(I have next to no patience in schooling ignorant HA'Mung anymore  ...  LOLz!  They bring out the BEST in me  ... KAPPA!)

[dogmai]

You guys are fukken retards.

Is that a fact?

Let's see if did your homework. 

[HUNG TU LO]

I see a lot of English but no Hmong characters and proof of an organized writing system.

In all of human history, all cultures with written language has one universal (now this is the "universal" definition retarded dogmai was looking for) characteristic - the bureaucratic necessity to record. No writing system was ever created without the need to record. Now, just like I stated earlier:

It doesn't matter how we came to not have a writing system. It's pretty obvious when looking at all world civilizations that an organized writing system usually comes after a long stable period of agriculturalis m which allows for advancement of culture, leisure, technology, government, etc.

Hmong never got that far in terms of governing and bureaucracy so we never nurtured a necessity for writing. Our ethnic group lives by the clan system. Do you know which other groups lives by clan/tribal system and also doesn't have a writing system? All of Native American tribes, all of indigenous South American tribes, and all of African bush clans.

Of course, warfare, mistreatment, and attempts at ethnic cleansing by the larger main dynasty government played the major role as to why Hmong are the way we are today. But that's not the issue. The issue here simply is, is THERE, or is THERE NOT a writing system? Show me. Write me a sentence and have someone else read it and reply to it. Then scan it. I'm very serious. I would love to be proven wrong.