What is the Original language? White or Green?

[Tubpojntxoog]

Txhob mus hais txog haistias seb hom lus twg yog original dua nad, tam sim no peb twb tsis paub haistias yog vim licas Hmoob Miskas thiaj povpob thaum pebcaug, tiamsis Hmoob Suav ho tsis ua li no lawm nas. Yog yuav hais txog Hmoob original language ces kawg seb yawmsaub puas nqis Los qhia lawm xwb hos tsis li ces av tsij xav seb Hmoob lub neej yuav ua licas thiaj zoo lawm yav tom ntej xwb hos yog peb pheej yuav mus dig yav tom qab xwb ces kawg peb yeej yuav poob qab mus xwb os cov yawg awd.

[chidorix0x]

Txhob mus hais txog haistias seb hom lus twg yog original dua nad, tam sim no peb twb tsis paub haistias yog vim licas Hmoob Miskas thiaj povpob thaum pebcaug, tiamsis Hmoob Suav ho tsis ua li no lawm nas. Yog yuav hais txog Hmoob original language ces kawg seb yawmsaub puas nqis Los qhia lawm xwb hos tsis li ces av tsij xav seb Hmoob lub neej yuav ua licas thiaj zoo lawm yav tom ntej xwb hos yog peb pheej yuav mus dig yav tom qab xwb ces kawg peb yeej yuav poob qab mus xwb os cov yawg awd.

Hais txog qhov nod, kev pov pob thaum noj peb caug ntawm Hmoob Los Tsuas/Meskas thiab Hmoob Suav - muaj keeb kwm los "scholarships" qhia thiab "explain" lawm laid. Tej zaum koj tsis tau paub, hnov, kawm los sis tshawb fawb tau lawm xwb. Kawg cov xib fwb, Hmoob-Suav "professors", nyob Suav teb paub thiab hais ib yam lid cov "scholarships" piav txog kev pov pob nod. Hais qhov yooj yim, cov Hmoob Los Tsuas/Meskas kawm "adopt" kev pov pob nod los ntawm lwm haiv neeg thaum khiav Suav teb los rau Los Tsuas. Kuv tsis nco haiv neeg ntawd peb lawm - tiam sis lawm pov lub pob khi txoj puam, ces peb Hmoob kawm thiab cia lid ua los txog nej hnub nod xwb. Cov Hmoob Suav ces tsis pom thiab paub txog txoj kev pov pob nod ces thiab tsis kawm "adopt" thiab ua xwb.

Hais txog kev vam meej ntawm peb ib haiv Hmoob. Kuv ntseeg hais tias peb yeej vam meej heev lawm, muab piv rau yav ntuj qub qab. Yog lid nod, peb thiaj yuav tau los taug tej kev los sis cov keeb kwm zoo lid nod, kom paub qhov tseeb vim cuam ua tsis tau tseeb, tseeb ua tsis tau cuam. Yog peb haiv Hmoob tsis taug tej nod ces, kuv ntseeg kuv tus kheej xwb, peb Hmoob tsuas vam meej ntawm lub ncauj xwb --- tsis vam meej kev txawj, kev ntses, kev nrog teb nrog chaws vam meej xws lid Suav, Yiv Pooj, thiab Asmesliskas. Ua tsaug.

[Tubpojntxoog]

Kuv tau nyeem ib daim ntawv sau Los ntawm ib professor Hmoob suav uas nws tau suggested li koj hais ntawv pug xyoo 2000-2001 ntawv lawm. Tam sim no kuv tsis tau tshawb fawb seb peb cov Hmoob Miskas cov scholars puas tau ua kev tshawb fawb xyuas txog qhov ntawv. But anyway, I'm skeptical, so that conclusion is still questionable to me. Yog muaj tseem li ntawv, vim licas kev povpob ho tshwm sim tas nrho rau cov Hmoob nyob Nplog, Myablaj, thiab Thai, (not sure about Hmong Burma). Peb ib txwm nyob Nplog teb, tiamneej peb tsis tau pom ib pab neeg nyob nrog peb twg povpob hlo li.

Kev tshawb fawb rau Hmoob tej culture yav ntuj qub qab yeej tseem ceeb thiab, tiamsis raws kuv ntsia peb muab focus ntau rau qhov ntawv ntau tshaj li qhov peb focus rau lub neej yav pem suab lawm. Vim haistias yog peb mus tshawb fawb hmong history lossis culture mas peb pom ntau leej hmong scholars los tshawb fawb txog tej ntawv, tiamsis yog peb nrhiav seb Hmoob lun neej yav Tom ntej yuav ua licas no ces tsis muaj ntau leej thiab ntau lub koos haum los hais txog. Lub neej yog yuav mus lawm yav Tom ntej, tsis yog yuav mus rov yav Tom qab, yog li peb yuav tsum focus rau yav Tom ntej kom ntau tshaj. Ua tsaug.

[chidorix0x]

Tubpojntxoog,

Hais txog kev pov pob, peb haiv Hmoob twb kawm thiab "adopt" thaum peb tseem nyob Suav teb os nawb (Yunnan/Hunnan and Guizchou, 18th century, to be exact) --- thaum tseem nrog Hmab nrog Sua nyob ua ke, nkaum thiab khiav Suav kev yuam. Ces thaum peb haiv Hmoob khiav Suav teb, late 18th century to 19th century, los rau Los Tsuas; cov teb chaws lid Nyablaj, Nplog, Thaib, thiab YasMab ces peb cia lid pov pob los lawm xwb los txog nej hnub nod. Cov Hmoob-Suav ua tseem nyob teb chaws Suav, lawd tsis pov pob vim lawd tsis yog cov kwv tij nrog peb khiav tsov rog. Lawd yog cov poob thiab nyob tom qab, raug ua Suav tus mej zeej. Koj nkag siab lawm lod?

Hais txog Hmoob lub neej, los sis kev vam meej yav pem suab. Quite honestly, there are already way way too many interest groups, orgs, individuals, and visionaries since Hmong's arrival in the States trying desperately to cement their strangle hold on its actualization. Qhov "problem" vim lis cas peb haiv Hmoob pheej tsis vam meej los sis pheej "stagnate and stall" - nej sawv daws yeej paub zoo lawm - Hmong just have too many wanna-be. Nyias tsuas kham nyias thiab kuv pheej khib koj, koj pheej khib kuv. How is this going to promote anything except chaos and internal conflicts, bickering, and fighting. Nej sawv daws yeej paub zoo lawm; ie. Hmoob lub Peb Caug -- within a single city, there are and can be up to 2-3 New Years celebration, like in Fresno and the Twin Cities. Qhov nod yog qhov peb haiv Hmoob yuam kev LOJ tshaj plaws, ces thiab tsis muaj hnub los sis kev vam meej rau peb suab. We, the Hmong, have too many wanna-be leaders, interest groups, visionaries, and nowadays even woman activists (feminism) - ces peb rav qab ua peb tus yeeb ncuab lawm xwb.

Hais txog kev tshawb fawb, qhov twg los zoo tag nrho: culture, history, folklore, arts etc.. Qhov "problem" kuv pom, is that again, peb cov "scholars/professors" nod tsis sib koom tes - nyias qhuas nyias yog tus "expert" lawm xwb. And more times than not, they are only regurgitating previous scholars' works, research, and publication. See the problem. Tsis muaj ib tug uas yog "original works" lid --- only reproduction.

Hais txog tej nod mad hais tsis txawj tag vim niaj hnub nod, peb haiv Hmoob, nyias NTSE nyias dhau heev lid lawm, even including cov nyob lwm lub ntuj lub teb; Laos, Thailand, and China etc..

[Tubpojntxoog]

If I remember correctly, the hmong Chinese professor suggested that we must have adopted that culture some where in Southeast Asia. But maybe we are not talking about the same professor. However, if we adopted back in 18th century, as you mentioned, shouldn't our relatives who stayed behind have carried on the culture as well? I'm not talking about the Miao who do not speak our language, and no not all of us moved out of china. Let said that the Chinese oppressed them and they lost the culture, then the Hmong Burma should have the culture as well. I don't know if hmong Burma do it. If the do, then you are correct!

[Tubpojntxoog]

Qhov koj hais tias Hmoob muaj too many wanna-be thiab Hmoob pheej sib khib sib txeeb meej mom no mas yeej muaj tsheeb li ntawd mad, tiamsis rau kuv mas cov neeg ntawv tsis yog cov neeg uas Los focus txog lub neej lawm yav Tom ntej nas. Cov no feem ntau yog cov laus uas tsis muaj kev kawm siab uas tsuas yog xav tau lub meej mom xwb tiamsis lawv tsis muaj lub hom phiaj thiab txoj kev taug uas yuav muaj peevxwm coj kom tau Hmoob vam meej. Cov yuav los qhia kom Hmoob focus rau lub neej yav tom ntej yuav tsum yog cov tub ntxhais txawj ntse, tiamsis feem ntau ntawm cov tub ntxhais txawj ntse yeej tsis tshua khes txog peb Hmoob li lawm thiab. Tsis tas li xwb, lawv tseem tsis sib koom tes lawv thiab. Koj ua ces kuv ntsia, kuv ua ces koj ntsia xwb. Dhau li lawm, peb ib co uas txhawj ntaub ntaw Los tsis koom tes nrog leej twg li thiab. Qhov no kuv thiaj haistias peb txhob ua li ntawv es peb yuav tsum mus koom tes pab tus neeg muaj lub zeem muag zoo rau peb haiv neeg, sib qhia hais txog kev npaj rau peb lub neej lawm yav pem suab kom ntau tshaj yav tas, thiab qhia txhua tus kom sawvdaws xyaum los ua ib co neeg tshaw kom yus muaj haiv. Hos yog peb pheej mus sib cam haistias koj li lus thiaj yog Hmoob li tug, kuv li thiaj yog Hmoob li tug no ces tej no twb ua kev sib cais rau peb lawm. Li ntawv, kuv thiaj haistias yav tas los tseem ceeb tsis npaum yav tom ntej.

[chidorix0x]

If I remember correctly, the hmong Chinese professor suggested that we must have adopted that culture some where in Southeast Asia. But maybe we are not talking about the same professor. However, if we adopted back in 18th century, as you mentioned, shouldn't our relatives who stayed behind have carried on the culture as well? I'm not talking about the Miao who do not speak our language, and no not all of us moved out of china. Let said that the Chinese oppressed them and they lost the culture, then the Hmong Burma should have the culture as well. I don't know if hmong Burma do it. If the do, then you are correct!

Truthfully, I do not recall the exact century when Hmong adopted "tossing the ball" or exactly where -- whether in China or SE Asia. It has been nearly 10 years since I saw the video or documentation explaining this Hmong New Year Celebration courtship practice. It may very well be, Hmong adopted it in the latter 19th or even early 20th century, and even possibly while in SE Asia. One thing that is certain, Hmong did adopt this from another culture or people. And yes, the Hmong in Burma do toss the ball as well, but not all of them, as several Hmong groups live independently of one another -- each arriving and settling at different times. I am guessing the Hmong on the Burma-Laos border toss the ball while those living further away probably do not. As for the Hmong-Chinese, they were oppressed throughout Chinese history so "ball tossing" is but just one of the practices that was/is likely banned, if they ever practiced it period.

Anyway, not a definitive, but in this video are the Hmoob Qos, who to my knowledge live and are found along the Burma-Laos border. As you can see they do toss the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqrzNaret0c (The video's owner prevents external embedding)

[cwjmemdub]

Haiv neeg es pov pob li Hmoob yog Puab Yib.  Nplog hu ua THAI DUM.  Lawv lub pob muaj 1 txoj hlab ua li tus tw ntev ntev.  Lawv tuav tus tw fiav xwb thiab lawv sawv nrug deb deb.

[TruthAboveKnowledge]

Speculation is nonsense by all who believe that doing any academic field research is going to get them any closer to the Truth.  But I do know these are FACTS:  White Hmong can not speak Green Hmong.  Their tongue can not roll and produce the resonance needed to project the words.  You may have a few who try to understand and study the Green Hmong dialect and words but word structure and dictions are different.  It is a FACT that when a Green Hmong marries into a White Hmong family, they tend to drop the Green Hmong dialect and customs.  You put 10 Green Hmong in a room with 1 White Hmong and the majority will talk in White Hmong, this is however not the case if you have 10 White Hmongs and 1 Green Hmong.  It is also a FACT that White Hmong are more stubborn when it comes to them trying to learn Green Hmong.  For them, Green Hmong sounds like a totally different language to them.

So tell me, why is it so hard for White Hmongs to learn, speak and understand Green Hmong, but not the other way around?

This question is not meant to elevate one side or another nor should it be taken to infuriate the other, but an Honest Answer needs an Honest question.

[chidorix0x]

Speculation is nonsense by all who believe that doing any academic field research is going to get them any closer to the Truth.  But I do know these are FACTS:  White Hmong can not speak Green Hmong.  Their tongue can not roll and produce the resonance needed to project the words.  You may have a few who try to understand and study the Green Hmong dialect and words but word structure and dictions are different.  It is a FACT that when a Green Hmong marries into a White Hmong family, they tend to drop the Green Hmong dialect and customs.  You put 10 Green Hmong in a room with 1 White Hmong and the majority will talk in White Hmong, this is however not the case if you have 10 White Hmongs and 1 Green Hmong.  It is also a FACT that White Hmong are more stubborn when it comes to them trying to learn Green Hmong.  For them, Green Hmong sounds like a totally different language to them.

So tell me, why is it so hard for White Hmongs to learn, speak and understand Green Hmong, but not the other way around?

This question is not meant to elevate one side or another nor should it be taken to infuriate the other, but an Honest Answer needs an Honest question.

   ...   

Not FACTS whatsoever.  They are in FACT, just your personal opinion and general observation - nothing more ... 

[TruthAboveKnowledge]

chido, why don't you ask any Green Hmong in here and see if they agree with my answer?  And then why don't you ask any White Hmong in here and see if they can pick up Green Hmong dialect in an instant like Green Hmongs do to the White dialect?  Then ask yourself if what I said is true of you, since you are a White Hmong.  Oberservations that are repeated over and over again becomes natural law.  I'm not saying that this has amounted to that, but it occurs frequently enough.

[chidorix0x]

/\ /\  ...     ...     Not FACTS whatsoever.  They are in FACT, just your personal opinion and general observation - nothing more ... 

(btw - Repetition, in the human/animal world, is nothing more than a "learning" excercise -- not natural law. A natural law would or is more commonly defined as "natural selection" or more popular known as "survival of the fittest". Knowing either or both dialect, White and/or Green, is definitely not "natural law", as one can have NO knowledge of either and live or survive just as well if not better. A good example is most US-borned Hmong nowadays, as they mainly speak English, and White or Green is alien to them,  . Ua tsaug.)

[TruthAboveKnowledge]

So do you know Green Hmong chido?  Obviously, from other threads, you were frothing for no apparent reason...but other then your own.

[chidorix0x]

/\ /\  ...  you are off topic -- way way off, on a very deep and bottomless end.

What does a person -- Green, White, Yellow, Red, Black, Purple, or Pink-polka-dot -- knowing the White or Green dialect, both, or neither have anything to do with the hypothesis of "authenticity", or this discussion topic to be exact  ...   

It proves nothing except remote awareness, daily consciousness/subconscious excercise and repetition -- the regurgitation of sounds one hears day-in and day-out, weekly, monthly, and yearly.

Also, it is a known fact that if anyone wants to properly or more eloquently learn and master a spoken language, they must live with and among the native speakers. All the schooling in the world can never teach or equate to this "repetitious" learning, speaking, and comprehensive skill/education. (This in essence is your "bias" observation, opinion, and generalization . Had the Green dialect been the more favorable spoken language, we'd all easily know, learn, and articulate it more. Sadly, it is not, as the White dialect seems to be the norm and more favorable - at least for the time being, since SE Asia to our knowledge and/or understanding and acceptance.)

Ua tsaug or if you prefer Ua tsug haab. "Puv haas le nuv rau mej xwb  ...   "

[TruthAboveKnowledge]

That was a simple yes or no question.  I no longer need to address anything to you as nothing will come out of it.