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Author Topic: Marriage within same clan  (Read 44595 times)

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Great Sage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2013, 10:24:58 AM »
You were doing well with your arguments until you said "there is nothing morally and scientifically wrong...." They just pounced on you after that.

Morality is a social construct. Social constructs are based on the beliefs of the people that it applies to. Hmong people just happens to believe that marrying the same last name is wrong, therefor in our culture, it's morally wrong.

There are more important issues regarding our culture out there than this one anyways. Let's save our passion for those.

 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0



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Tubpojntxoog

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2013, 11:21:57 AM »
Come on people. You are not helping. We are here to discuss about this Hmong culture thing through exchanging ideas and opinions. You can or can't agree, but you have the right to respond based on your thought. Personal attacks and named calls are simply too childish and immature, and all of us are old enough to know that. You guys sound worst than the OG. Fighting is not going to bring us any change for progress and development. You guys are smarter than that!!!



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Great Sage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2013, 11:29:06 AM »
Come on people. You are not helping. We are here to discuss about this Hmong culture thing through exchanging ideas and opinions. You can or can't agree, but you have the right to respond based on your thought. Personal attacks and named calls are simply too childish and immature, and all of us are old enough to know that. You guys sound worst than the OG. Fighting is not going to bring us any change for progress and development. You guys are smarter than that!!!

Exactly my point. We're here to share our opinions or debate our position. Personally attacking someone because you can't refute them is not welcomed.



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Nyiaj Z Muas

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2013, 02:49:35 PM »
tl:dr maybe it's alrdy been said, but isnt there a folklore that talks of the flood of the world and the aftermath where the only ones left were a brother and sister, and they have to repopulate.... ....
but after all it's only a folklore n nothing more



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NceegVaj

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2013, 01:20:26 PM »
What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?

Just do it.  I strongly encourage marrying one's sister is the best wife in the world.  None to exist.




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Offline theking

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2013, 05:33:32 PM »
Just do it.  I strongly encourage marrying one's sister is the best wife in the world.  None to exist.



Hmong have already come close to it. To those Hmorons, it's not ok to marry a stranger with the same last name that has zero biological connection but it's ok to marry a biological blood related family member.  :idiot2:

And according to some, the same last name can't marry belief was adopted from the Chinese so it wasn't even a Hmong practice to begin with...



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violet

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2013, 06:02:57 PM »
What you guys think about same clan marriage? Can we lift that taboo?

First you should work on lifting the taboo for same name marriage in general....tha t'll be a stepping stone for same clan marriage.

Personally though I don't think same clan marriage should be attempted. Ntshe yuav ua rau yus niam thiab txiv poob ntsej poob muag xwb os.



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Tubpojntxoog

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2013, 12:59:10 AM »
First you should work on lifting the taboo for same name marriage in general....tha t'll be a stepping stone for same clan marriage.

Personally though I don't think same clan marriage should be attempted. Ntshe yuav ua rau yus niam thiab txiv poob ntsej poob muag xwb os.


First you should work on lifting the taboo for same name marriage in general....tha t'll be a stepping stone for same clan marriage.

Personally though I don't think same clan marriage should be attempted. Ntshe yuav ua rau yus niam thiab txiv poob ntsej poob muag xwb os.

Why does it seem so hard for you guys to understand my question. I'm not or nobody here is suggesting to anybody to attempt same clan marriage. I'm simply asking your opinion about the issue to see if you want it change or not.

We all know that Hmong can't marry someone with the same last name whether it's blood related or not. However, we all know that Hmong can marry someone who is blood related but with different last name. Now this kind of practice is wrong and backward in today's society. Science has taught us that marrying someone with blood related is a concern of genetic problem. So since we know that our practice is wrong and backward, are we willing to change it?

Folks, we are not living in the mountain as a primitive society anymore. We are living in the most complex society and the most advanced nation on earth, and we don't want to change even though we know that our practice is wrong? If we can't accept the change to this little Hmong custom, how are we going to live with the society that will sooner or later legalize gay marriage? No, we are not talking about changing to marry your sister or anyone who is your immediate family member. We are talking about changing to marry someone your family is not biologically related to regardless of his/her last name.

You can't just simply go and marry someone with your last name at the moment, because society doesn't approve it. If you violate the norm, you will live in a shameful life as many of you have mentioned. We need to make the change, so people can do it with confidence and without being fear of losing their face. And yes, we can change for the better if we all come together. This is one important issue in Hmong society. How can you not see it?



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Offline theking

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2013, 04:21:21 AM »


You can't just simply go and marry someone with your last name at the moment, because society doesn't approve it. If you violate the norm, you will live in a shameful life as many of you have mentioned. We need to make the change, so people can do it with confidence and without being fear of losing their face.


Sorry, that passage seems to apply to many of the weak minded people that would do things just to please others even complete strangers instead of doing what they feel is right for them. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong and more importantly illegal about two strangers with the same last name marrying each others. Those that want to carry on that primitive practice, suit yourself...I and others that feel the way I do definitely won't!




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NceegVaj

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2013, 11:46:40 AM »
Sorry, that passage seems to apply to many of the weak minded people that would do things just to please others even complete strangers instead of doing what they feel is right for them. Again, there's absolutely nothing wrong and more importantly illegal about two strangers with the same last name marrying each others. Those that want to carry on that primitive practice, suit yourself...I and others that feel the way I do definitely won't!



I have had sex with another Vang brother.  He's awesome.  My mother almost killed me thought.




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Offline Believe_N_Me

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2013, 09:47:19 PM »
Tubpojntxoog,

You are incorrect when you say that people from the same clan don't know each other. Perhaps the younger generation have no idea who their extended families are but ask any important elder in a clan and he'll know which subgroup belongs where. Without disclosing my clan, I once met a woman with the same clan name who asked which subgroup I belonged to. Right away she knew of my subgroup's leader even though I had only met her for the very first time. The problem is that nowadays the younger generation doesn't know their own history so they become strangers in their own clan. I suggest you learn more about your clan and the pertinent leaders of your clan's past. You will see that they are all connected.

Honestly, the only people opposed to our clan system (which makes us unique from other groups) are one or two things:

1. outsiders of their own clan
2. come from a bad clan 



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Offline Vandal Savage

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2013, 07:36:50 AM »
Tubpojntxoog,

You are incorrect when you say that people from the same clan don't know each other. Perhaps the younger generation have no idea who their extended families are but ask any important elder in a clan and he'll know which subgroup belongs where. Without disclosing my clan, I once met a woman with the same clan name who asked which subgroup I belonged to. Right away she knew of my subgroup's leader even though I had only met her for the very first time. The problem is that nowadays the younger generation doesn't know their own history so they become strangers in their own clan. I suggest you learn more about your clan and the pertinent leaders of your clan's past. You will see that they are all connected.

Honestly, the only people opposed to our clan system (which makes us unique from other groups) are one or two things:

1. outsiders of their own clan
2. come from a bad clan

I'll add that those people are ignorant and self-serving. 



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HUNG TU LO

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2013, 01:16:27 PM »
As much as this is viewed as old fashioned and backwards, I don't think it will ever go away. Just like how a white family that has been Protestant for many, many generations, in the 21st Century, will still gossip and chatter if one of them marries a Catholic or Baptist. It's a misconception that white-European people are modernized, secular people who doesn't care about family name, "caj ces", etc., but they do. Italian dating another Italian, the families will still want to know what part of Italy their family comes from.

After all this time of modernizing, white people still do this. I see us doing this a millenium down the road.

Is it good or bad? I don't know if it's good for the sake of humanity, but I can honestly say I'm not sure if it's a bad thing, either.



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Tubpojntxoog

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2013, 11:04:37 PM »


Tubpojntxoog,

You are incorrect when you say that people from the same clan don't know each other. Perhaps the younger generation have no idea who their extended families are but ask any important elder in a clan and he'll know which subgroup belongs where. Without disclosing my clan, I once met a woman with the same clan name who asked which subgroup I belonged to. Right away she knew of my subgroup's leader even though I had only met her for the very first time. The problem is that nowadays the younger generation doesn't know their own history so they become strangers in their own clan. I suggest you learn more about your clan and the pertinent leaders of your clan's past. You will see that they are all connected.

Honestly, the only people opposed to our clan system (which makes us unique from other groups) are one or two things:

1. outsiders of their own clan
2. come from a bad clan

I don't know how you draw the line that I'm incorrect when I never said that same clan people do not know each other. Do I have to draw the line when I mean "biologically unrelated"? To me, anyone who is not from my great great grandfather that came from China to Laos five generations ago is a biologically unrelated. Sure, this is not a reasonable definition for generally acceptance when speaking of marrying the same clan. We Hmong will have to define what is and is not acceptable and who are to include and exclude if we agree to make the change.

Maybe it's a shock to you when you learned that someone in your clan whom you don't know can recognize your clan leader, cousins, uncles, and sometimes even your dad. I grew up in that kind of world, so it is normal to me--and I know the reason to that. If we  trace back in time, then we were all related at some point--not just Hmong but all human beings on earth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "subgroup", but I guess you are talking about what we Hmong called "thooj dab koom qhua", especially " txhim, or nyuj dab". I can tell you that if we are talking about this, then I have several thousand people who are related to me this way. And these people and me are anywhere from one to fifteen generations apart. I'm sure it is the same thing for you.

Believe_N_Me, I know you don't like to change when it comes to this issue. But don't you recognize that we are living in the 21st century now? If we keep practicing these kinds of primitive cultures, what would other ethnic groups think of us? The reason our sons and daughters do not want to speak Hmong and learn any of our culture anymore is because they see our culture as the "lower culture" that is not up to the modern way of life. We have to change in order to survive. This issue is one of the many issues in our society that needs to be changed. Remember, we only change for the better, not the worse.



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Tubpojntxoog

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Re: Marriage within same clan
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2013, 11:25:00 PM »
As much as this is viewed as old fashioned and backwards, I don't think it will ever go away. Just like how a white family that has been Protestant for many, many generations, in the 21st Century, will still gossip and chatter if one of them marries a Catholic or Baptist. It's a misconception that white-European people are modernized, secular people who doesn't care about family name, "caj ces", etc., but they do. Italian dating another Italian, the families will still want to know what part of Italy their family comes from.

After all this time of modernizing, white people still do this. I see us doing this a millenium down the road.

Is it good or bad? I don't know if it's good for the sake of humanity, but I can honestly say I'm not sure if it's a bad thing, either.


I guess what you mentioned above is something more of choosing a family to marry. We Hmong have a proverb saying that "noj nceb yuav tsum taug cav, yuav nyab yuav tsum xaiv neej xaiv tsav". If I understand you correctly, then this is a different topic, which is a good thing though.



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