Marriage within same clan

[Believe_N_Me]

 
I don't know how you draw the line that I'm incorrect when I never said that same clan people do not know each other. Do I have to draw the line when I mean "biologically unrelated"? To me, anyone who is not from my great great grandfather that came from China to Laos five generations ago is a biologically unrelated. Sure, this is not a reasonable definition for generally acceptance when speaking of marrying the same clan. We Hmong will have to define what is and is not acceptable and who are to include and exclude if we agree to make the change.

Maybe it's a shock to you when you learned that someone in your clan whom you don't know can recognize your clan leader, cousins, uncles, and sometimes even your dad. I grew up in that kind of world, so it is normal to me--and I know the reason to that. If we  trace back in time, then we were all related at some point--not just Hmong but all human beings on earth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "subgroup", but I guess you are talking about what we Hmong called "thooj dab koom qhua", especially " txhim, or nyuj dab". I can tell you that if we are talking about this, then I have several thousand people who are related to me this way. And these people and me are anywhere from one to fifteen generations apart. I'm sure it is the same thing for you.

Believe_N_Me, I know you don't like to change when it comes to this issue. But don't you recognize that we are living in the 21st century now? If we keep practicing these kinds of primitive cultures, what would other ethnic groups think of us? The reason our sons and daughters do not want to speak Hmong and learn any of our culture anymore is because they see our culture as the "lower culture" that is not up to the modern way of life. We have to change in order to survive. This issue is one of the many issues in our society that needs to be changed. Remember, we only change for the better, not the worse.

There lies your problem. You care too much what others think of your own ethnic group rather than have the spine to stand proud and accept that it's a social taboo in our culture. Why do you allow another culture to define what is right or isn't right in YOUR culture?  Does a horse tell a cow how to live?  There isn't anything wrong with this practice of ours. None of you have presented a compelling reason to fix something that isn't broken.

[Tubpojntxoog]

There lies your problem. You care too much what others think of your own ethnic group rather than have the spine to stand proud and accept that it's a social taboo in our culture. Why do you allow another culture to define what is right or isn't right in YOUR culture?  Does a horse tell a cow how to live?  There isn't anything wrong with this practice of ours. None of you have presented a compelling reason to fix something that isn't broken.

How can you not see that it's wrong? It's wrong when you let your son marries your sister's daughter or vice versa. It's wrong when you don't want your children to marry someone who simply carries your last name but are thousands year old generation from you. It's wrong when you living in the year of 2013 but practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful. It's wrong when your children don't want know and be associated with it anymore. It's wrong when you do the opposite of what can be proven right in the lab. It's wrong when you know you are wrong but don't change it. For all of these, I don't think anyone needs to present any compelling reason to fix it.

[chidorix0x]

For all of those who have deemed Hmong culture, practices, beliefs etc., as "practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful.", can you all please explicitly tell me what makes Hmong/Hmong culture primitive, backwards, or shameful or whatever adjectives you want to inject?  I for one want to know, once and for all.

(Btw --- most if not all of the time, what is the norm is that individuals using these expletives, really are just one of these, or a combination, and in some cases all of them.  That is ignorant, clueless, baseless, bias, uncultured -- Western and Eastern, and most of all uneducated - intellectually . And just because you may have a degree does not automatically mean you are intelligent, or educated.)

But please do prove me wrong.

[theking]

How can you not see that it's wrong? It's wrong when you let your son marries your sister's daughter or vice versa. It's wrong when you don't want your children to marry someone who simply carries your last name but are thousands year old generation from you. It's wrong when you living in the year of 2013 but practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful. It's wrong when your children don't want know and be associated with it anymore. It's wrong when you do the opposite of what can be proven right in the lab. It's wrong when you know you are wrong but don't change it. For all of these, I don't think anyone needs to present any compelling reason to fix it.

Many aspects of the Hmong culture is good but the bad aspects such as 'bride-nap, men being allowed to marry multiple wives or date other women even after marriage, trading money for human, grandpa marrying underage kids, alcohol poisoning of minors at weddings, blood family members marrying each other, non-blood related strangers with the same last name can't date/marry, ...gotta go. As I've said, those that want to continue practicing those primitive practices, suit yourself but I'm not.

[pseudonym]

Yep, not too long ago, no one were allowed to marry whites but whites because it's "morally and ethically" wrong according the majority of white societies, gay marriage were deemed evil and and considered "morally and ethically" wrong according to those that are against it especially hardcore right wing Christians, ....I can go on and on about more BS primitive beliefs of the past in many cultures and societies but those with brain cells will understand my point.

In the Hmong society specifically, Hmong marrying Laotian or Mien or other Asian ethnic groups were deemed stupid from what I've observed while living in Loas. Here in the states, Hmong that married other races are also deemed stupid by some Hmorons (no different than the white morons or morons in any other group that still believe in their own BS primitive beliefs). Furthermore, even Hmong marrying Hmong is deemed stupid according to some Hmorons because the clans of the bride and groom don't click for some lame ass primitive reason a long long time ago.

Therefore, as you say, changes in culture cannot be halt. I see more and more mixed marriages (ethnic and/or race), I see more and more people accepting gay people and gay marriages, I see more and more Hmong married out of ethnic and race, and less and less Hmong care about things like a certain clan can't marry a certain clan, or one clan punishing another clan during wedding negotiation or any other bs primitive beliefs that happened a long time ago  ...all due to the winds of change as it cannot be halt regardless of culture.

As that change continues to progress, I can see certain primitive belief and practices of the Hmong culture disappearing such as bride-head price (also adapted from the Chinese a long time ago like the no marriage within the same last name according to some), polygamy, blood cousins being allow to hook up, bride-napping, adults marrying kids, alcohol poisoning at weddings especially when it involves minors, and in this case, frowning upon strangers with the same last name tying the knot. Those changes have been slow but it is progressing non the less because more and more people are changing from it.

The wind of change has and will continue to affect every culture. As a result, the fat will continue to be trimmed and left behind as time goes and the good aspects of cultures will move forward.

well said.

[Tubpojntxoog]

Many aspects of the Hmong culture is good but the bad aspects such as 'bride-nap, men being allowed to marry multiple wives or date other women even after marriage, trading money for human, grandpa marrying underage kids, alcohol poisoning of minors at weddings, blood family members marrying each other, non-blood related strangers with the same last name can't date/marry, ...gotta go. As I've said, those that want to continue practicing those primitive practices, suit yourself but I'm not.

Count me on your side when it comes to these issues. I can understand why OG don't want change, but I can't understand why those who have college education don't want change. I can't wait to the day I see these negative aspects of our culture gone.

[Believe_N_Me]

How can you not see that it's wrong? It's wrong when you let your son marries your sister's daughter or vice versa. It's wrong when you don't want your children to marry someone who simply carries your last name but are thousands year old generation from you. It's wrong when you living in the year of 2013 but practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful. It's wrong when your children don't want know and be associated with it anymore. It's wrong when you do the opposite of what can be proven right in the lab. It's wrong when you know you are wrong but don't change it. For all of these, I don't think anyone needs to present any compelling reason to fix it.

I knew you would bring this up and am fully prepared to state that such point is irrelevant to the topic you proposed, which is marrying same clan name. So let's just stick with that.

There is nothing primitive about this age-old practice in our culture. It is simply a social taboo that is observed by the majority of Hmong people. I don't know why you have difficulties understanding that. If you want to step outside social norm then that's your prerogative but be prepared to face criticism. This is the same as people who look for ways to be a non-conformist. They may not be doing anything illegal but since it's not standard practice they will get talked about.

I don't know why you continue to argue tooth and nail as if you want something written as law to stop this. It's as silly as trying to write a law that will allow American bride's to wear a purple wedding dress.  Traditionally, brides wear a white wedding gown but who is to say that a bride can't wear cheetah print if that's what she wants? She will probably get talked about but must we debate and establish a law about this? 

[Believe_N_Me]

Count me on your side when it comes to these issues. I can understand why OG don't want change, but I can't understand why those who have college education don't want change. I can't wait to the day I see these negative aspects of our culture gone.

Because college-educated people actually realize that this isn't a concern.  There's nothing broken with this practice and you haven't made a compelling case against it other then bringing up an irrelevant point. I suppose you also think eating cats or dogs should be illegal for people living in other countries that happen to consider them both a delicacy. 

[Tubpojntxoog]

For all of those who have deemed Hmong culture, practices, beliefs etc., as "practice primitive belief that make your children feel old fashion, backward, and shameful.", can you all please explicitly tell me what makes Hmong/Hmong culture primitive, backwards, or shameful or whatever adjectives you want to inject?  I for one want to know, once and for all.

(Btw --- most if not all of the time, what is the norm is that individuals using these expletives, really are just one of these, or a combination, and in some cases all of them.  That is ignorant, clueless, baseless, bias, uncultured -- Western and Eastern, and most of all uneducated - intellectually . And just because you may have a degree does not automatically mean you are intelligent, or educated.)

It all depends on the culture you are talking about. No, not all Hmong cultures are old fashion, backward, primitive belief, and shameful. Many of our cultures are some of the most beautiful cultures on earth. But at the same time, some are ugly if we agree on the same definition of these terms above.

You are wrong if you simply regard individuals who don't view Hmong culture the way you do as " ignorant, clueless, baseless, bias, uncultured, and unintellectual . Many Hmong who hold master degrees and Ph.Ds deem at least some of our cultures are too primitive. Btw, have you heard Hmong experts on Hmong culture said "Hmoob kev cai yog dev npua cai". The saying is an indication that even the experts know that there is something wrong with some of our cultures. IMO, I think our cultures are not the "organized cultures" yet. You right, holding a degree does make you right on every issue.

But please do prove me wrong.

[Tubpojntxoog]

I knew you would bring this up and am fully prepared to state that such point is irrelevant to the topic you proposed, which is marrying same clan name. So let's just stick with that.

There is nothing primitive about this age-old practice in our culture. It is simply a social taboo that is observed by the majority of Hmong people. I don't know why you have difficulties understanding that. If you want to step outside social norm then that's your prerogative but be prepared to face criticism. This is the same as people who look for ways to be a non-conformist. They may not be doing anything illegal but since it's not standard practice they will get talked about.

I don't know why you continue to argue tooth and nail as if you want something written as law to stop this. It's as silly as trying to write a law that will allow American bride's to wear a purple wedding dress.  Traditionally, brides wear a white wedding gown but who is to say that a bride can't wear cheetah print if that's what she wants? She will probably get talked about but must we debate and establish a law about this? 

No, you don't, and that's exactly what you like; therefore, you are against the change. If you can point to me a single modern society on earth that practice this kind of backward belief, than I will change my position. This kind of culture is found among indigenous people. This is America and the year 2013. In addiction, You keep repeating that I have not have any compelling arguments regarding this topic, but the same thing can be said to you as well. On the other hand, you keep suggesting to people who favor the change to go ahead and violate the norm and live with the consequences. This clearly show your weak ability to judge what's acceptable and what's not in society.

I can argue with you in detail about eating cat and dog and the color of the wedding dress, but these are different topics, another indication that your judgement is as weak as the way you related marrying same clan to these topics.

[Believe_N_Me]

No, you don't, and that's exactly what you like; therefore, you are against the change. If you can point to me a single modern society on earth that practice this kind of backward belief, than I will change my position. This kind of culture is found among indigenous people. This is America and the year 2013. In addiction, You keep repeating that I have not have any compelling arguments regarding this topic, but the same thing can be said to you as well. On the other hand, you keep suggesting to people who favor the change to go ahead and violate the norm and live with the consequences. This clearly show your weak ability to judge what's acceptable and what's not in society.

I can argue with you in detail about eating cat and dog and the color of the wedding dress, but these are different topics, another indication that your judgement is as weak as the way you related marrying same clan to these topics.

Your case is weak because you can't form a compelling argument as to why this practice holds back the progress of Hmong. You state that it is primitive so illustrate how it is. Comparing it to another culture is invalid because every culture has their own nuances.

The problem with many of you is that you're on a mission to be white or whatever and if something isn't white then it's backwards and primitive. It's funny that while you think this social taboo is primitive, a white person wouldn't even think the same.

Truthfully, this subject is of no concern but since you bring it up we're just responding.

[Tubpojntxoog]

Your case is weak because you can't form a compelling argument as to why this practice holds back the progress of Hmong. You state that it is primitive so illustrate how it is. Comparing it to another culture is invalid because every culture has their own nuances.

The problem with many of you is that you're on a mission to be white or whatever and if something isn't white then it's backwards and primitive. It's funny that while you think this social taboo is primitive, a white person wouldn't even think the same.

Truthfully, this subject is of no concern but since you bring it up we're just responding.

You know that marrying same last name is a social taboo, but who have difficulty to understand that social taboo is established by societ. Societ is established by the people. Therefore, if societ is progressed to a higher level, social taboos that don't make sense, such as this subject, should be dropped. Yes, this matter might make sense way back then when Hmong lived in the mountain as scattered, isolated, and small villages, but it doesn't make sense in this modern life here in America. Therefore, it's up to the people to lift it. Changing on the personal level doe not lift the taboo. On the other hand, this taboo confuses Hmong that since they can't marry someone with the same last name, then it's right to marry someone with blood related but different last name.

You are always wrong with your judgment, so stop judging and start listening. No, we are not here on a mission to be white. We are here on a mission to modify our culture to be an "organized culture", and that's it. Therefor, it's not about you and me that can do it. It's about everyone getting involved to get it done.

I do respect your perspective, so don't piss off. Yes, we are here to respond to each other, and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess all I can say to you is that if you want to stay with the same perch, it seems to be your only option, then that's ok. I have wing, and I have multiple perches, so I will fly to perch on the one that suits my current life. After all, we will just have to cast our vote some day. I'm tired of talking to people who don't see the value of change, so I will just leave it here.

[AOZ]

time for a story... this is something that is recent.

two male cousins from same clan... both have same  grand father... one lived in fresno and other in north carolina. 

one day fresno's son met NC's daughter online.  and the two kids fell in love.  boy gets girl pregnant and takes girl home to his family where she meets her new fatherNlaw.   

 

[night912]

time for a story... this is something that is recent.

two male cousins from same clan... both have same  grand father... one lived in fresno and other in north carolina. 

one day fresno's son met NC's daughter online.  and the two kids fell in love.  boy gets girl pregnant and takes girl home to his family where she meets her new fatherNlaw.   

 

Out of curiosity, how is this related to the debate?

[AOZ]

Out of curiosity, how is this related to the debate?

how is this not related to debate?

so many kids these day do not even know who their relatives are.  when they meet at hmong parties... they dib eachother like hluas nkauj hluas nruag because they think they are soooo westernize and don't care for culture.