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Author Topic: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj  (Read 7043 times)

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NeejYagHawj

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Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« on: September 22, 2015, 02:41:29 PM »
The topic of Mong New Year and Hauvtoj may be sensitive to some, simply because 99% of all Mong in the US are misinformed by so-called "elders" and "scholars"--this is why I tend to not read many books written for a "degrees" and “fame.” 

Before 1960, both rituals/practices were celebrated correctly, primarily because Mong were still backward and unknown to the outside world.  General Vang Pao then came into power--and Mong pib muaj plhu tuaj, concentrating on fun rather than yearly rituals based on obligations and traditions.  Eventually, the two practices became one.  Now, in America, Mong took these two events to the next level, and now the younger generations have no idea what a new year is--thinking that it is a Hauvtoj.

Traditional Mong New Year and Mong Hauvtoj each has different purposes, meaning, and most importantly, time (in terms of when to celebrate them).  Since they are so close together in terms of time, this may be the problem why the younger generations are so confused on what they are.  Maybe I should not say "younger" generation because even the elders are referring to them wrongfully. 

The following accounts are from "legends/stories/matrimonial songs/death songs" as taught and practiced--hince they are not from books.  Again, this is why I do not read books regarding issues like this because those books are also from "stories" told by elders (or misinformed elders).  Also keep in mind, I referred to most "elders" now as "misinformed" because Mong who were borned after 1950 were already "misinformed" when fun was their main goal during Vang Pao’s power since the 60s.  So just because we are calling them elders now, it does not mean what they say is true.  Also, many scholars now are “interviewing” these so-call elders for guidance; however, many of their explanations are just simply wrong.

Although both rituals (per legend) began with SivYig's followers, they are not the same.  In essence, to refer to a Hauvtoj as a New Year is a mistake and likewise, to refer to a New Year as a Hauvtoj is also a mistake. 

New Year originated (from legends) from Txoov Siv Yig; and Hauvtoj began from Txiv Yawm’s remaining army after he got killed (many variations of the name, but the most known one is Txiv Yawm or Txij Yawm).  The two traditions are totally different.  However, our “New Year” date may have been wrong if compared to the Mong of China—it seems the true date would coincide with the Chinese New Year.  Why the difference?  No one really knows, except the Mong who migrated down south seems to have only 28 days in their calendar—meaning that every 2-3 years, they “repeat” months.  Due to this reason, those who do not repeat months will celebrate their new year 2-3 months earlier—and this seems to be our issue right now…meaning this is why our new year begins sometimes in November.  The other reason is, possibly, we tend to practice our new year celebration right after rice harvesting.  I am not aware of when rice is ready to be harvested in China, but in Laos it is usually in November—and rice is the main dish of the New Year.

Anyway, the story goes like this:  Once a upon a time, in China, there was a Mong Kingdom being terrorized by a Monster.  Some call it Loob Nyug, some say it is just a monster of some sort.  This entity killed and ate many people, causing great confusion and terror, so many Mong fled the area.  Then, entered Txoov Siv Yig (Note:   There are two great followers of the SivYig from Heaven:  Txoov Siv Yig and Tooj Nchai Siv Yig).  Because the demonic entity had mesmerizing eyes and a cry that can killed any living being—Txoov had to “cover” his face and beat his shield to nullify the enemies cry and eyes.  Txoov eventually killed the beast—and it happened during rise harvesting.  When Txoov killed the beast, the cloth he used to blindfold himself was stained with blood—hence, some say Txoov was of the Vang Clan or “Vug” clan.

The Mong celebrated a time of great accomplishment for Txoov and the Mong.  The celebration is to “begin” a new year (after all the bad things that caused by the demon) and 3 days of celebration is to be performed—3 days of celebrations—10 dishes per day = NOJ 30…the receiving dish of the new year.

THIS IS NEW YEAR CELEBRATION—THE MAIN PURPOSE.  Just because I did not list other things, does not mean this is all we do at new year.

Hauvtoj is a little different.  It began with the death of Txiv Yawg.  The remaining generals fled to a nearby mountain side.  Those who were not captured or killed were lost.  The generals then cut down two trees—one was mounted on top of the mountain with Txiv Yawg’s flag to let the remaining people know where to gather, and the other pole was to be mounted down the valley where the group will meet.  These two poles are called “ncej ntxheb” and “ncej ntxhoo.”  Some call it ncej paag. 

After the generals realized that there was not enough soldiers to counter attack, they began to flee south—raising the two poles every chance they get to let Mong know where the main group was.  When they finally realized that they were not being chased, they stopped raising the flags/poles.  Eventually, people got busy with life and no time for the frequent ritual anymore.  Mong decided that, only one “raising” flag should be perform each year only—and the only time available was during the 3 days of New Year.  So, the ritual was placed during New Year—it can be before or after new year and usually uphold by “Xeev Laus.”

Hauvtoj is a time of unity for all Mong, with bull fights, badminton (tis qaib…some call it tshav qaib), and LUGTXAJ to tell about the misery of life (ntuj teb taag quas ncua…).  Over time, those who came south discovered “ball tossing” and adopted it from “Ncuav.” 

It is good to evolve cultures for the survival of an ethnic group.  However, when we start calling a ritual something else and claim that “we have always done it like this for thousands of years,” there is something wrong.

In summary:  New Year is more “religious” related, involving making offerings to ancestors, calling souls, txi xwm kab, inviting special guests for “tsab” or “30,” pe tsiab, etc  These things includes tso plig of both dead relatives and dead animals sacrificed over the years.  Most importantly, new year is celebrated (supposed to anyway) during a specific date (Mong date that is…).  Most importantly, new year is always in house because it involves any entities in the house.

Hauvtoj involves unity of the Mong as a whole, involves fun, ball tossing, checking out chicks, etc.  Anyone can organize the practice anytime they want because it does not depend on a certain date..in other words, it is not a new year.  Most importantly, it occurs outside (at a mountain side) with NCEJ NTXHEB AND NCEJ NTXHOO. It just sickens me to see “educated” Mong on stand with a sign saying “happy new year” on it.  What worst, it is sad to hear educated people saying “we have always done it like this for hundreds of years.”

More later



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chidorix0x

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2015, 07:24:28 PM »
...  kekeke  ...   :2funny:  ...  KEKEKE  ...   :idiot2:/ ::)

Apparently this "BASIC knowledge" (Yag) is still churning nauseating manure perched in its highly imaginative royal toilet of utter idiocy/ignorance/nonsense of and about HA'Mung fairy tales (Hauvtoj/Ceremonial Ritual Vs Pebcaug/New Year) in the land of Munchkins and Umpa-Lumpas  ...  kekeke  ...   >:D

Yag, u really have "no shame" whatsoever in ALL of your BS thus far, especially being ever so ignorant and idiotic in citing Txiv Yawg and Txoov Siv Yig etc. (the former who arguably has ZERO relativity to Hmong whatsoever, the second more or less too) as the basis of your cow-pat-laced "BS"  ...  KEKEKE  ...   :idiot2:  (Can an ignoramus be ever more idiotic?  Yag is living proof of that  ...  kekeke  ...   8)/ :D)

Anyone, Hmong and/or non-Hmong, can easily with minimal effort/research -- scholarly and/or layman Q&A -- disprove Yag's cow-pat-laced BS  ...  KEKEKE  ...   ;)



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chidorix0x

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2015, 07:48:21 PM »
...  kekeke  ...   :2funny:

BTW, Yag (the ignoramus) is not the only Hmong/Mong, past and present, who is familiar with those/these fairy tales/folklores he/she had been spoon-fed; yet is/was naïve/gullible enough to believe that they are irrefutable truths/facts/historical records of and about Hmong/Mong history, customs, and celebrations/ceremonies  ...  KEKEKE  ...   ::)/ :idiot2:

As a matter of fact, the New Year fairy tale, is nothing more than a clever play on Hmong/Mong verbiage.  Noj Peb Caug=Eat 3X10  ...  garbage!  Examp:  Today, most ignorant Hmong/Mong (kids) say, "Noj Tshiab Peb Caug" for "Happy New Year", when in fact the actual/authentic verbiage is "Noj Tsiab Peb Caug" -- "tshiab" for "new" was NEVER part of the verbiage"Tsiab" means celebration/festivity/feast, which the New Year entails.  It has NOTHING to do with "NEW==tshiab" whatsoever, except for the New Year forthcoming.  (This fairy tale/make-believe only came into being within the last 5 years -- told here in the USA/West.  Imagine that.  Never once, had it been uttered in SEAsia, Thailand, or before Y2K by any Hmong/Mong -- young, old, or deceased ghosts haunting the living  ...  kekeke  ...   O0)



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NeejYagHawj

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 07:56:17 PM »
congrats

you are the perfect example of who i am referring to. good job...



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NeejYagHawj

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2015, 11:28:19 AM »
Sab Cuam...

puas muaj lus hais lawm na?  I'M TALKING TO YOU CHIDSAFDSIASDF LS



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Offline dlabtsi_os

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 04:18:23 PM »
The topic of Mong New Year and Hauvtoj may be sensitive to some, simply because 99% of all Mong in the US are misinformed by so-called "elders" and "scholars"--this is why I tend to not read many books written for a "degrees" and “fame.” 

Before 1960, both rituals/practices were celebrated correctly, primarily because Mong were still backward and unknown to the outside world.  General Vang Pao then came into power--and Mong pib muaj plhu tuaj, concentrating on fun rather than yearly rituals based on obligations and traditions.  Eventually, the two practices became one.  Now, in America, Mong took these two events to the next level, and now the younger generations have no idea what a new year is--thinking that it is a Hauvtoj.

Traditional Mong New Year and Mong Hauvtoj each has different purposes, meaning, and most importantly, time (in terms of when to celebrate them).  Since they are so close together in terms of time, this may be the problem why the younger generations are so confused on what they are.  Maybe I should not say "younger" generation because even the elders are referring to them wrongfully. 

The following accounts are from "legends/stories/matrimonial songs/death songs" as taught and practiced--hince they are not from books.  Again, this is why I do not read books regarding issues like this because those books are also from "stories" told by elders (or misinformed elders).  Also keep in mind, I referred to most "elders" now as "misinformed" because Mong who were borned after 1950 were already "misinformed" when fun was their main goal during Vang Pao’s power since the 60s.  So just because we are calling them elders now, it does not mean what they say is true.  Also, many scholars now are “interviewing” these so-call elders for guidance; however, many of their explanations are just simply wrong.

Although both rituals (per legend) began with SivYig's followers, they are not the same.  In essence, to refer to a Hauvtoj as a New Year is a mistake and likewise, to refer to a New Year as a Hauvtoj is also a mistake. 

New Year originated (from legends) from Txoov Siv Yig; and Hauvtoj began from Txiv Yawm’s remaining army after he got killed (many variations of the name, but the most known one is Txiv Yawm or Txij Yawm).  The two traditions are totally different.  However, our “New Year” date may have been wrong if compared to the Mong of China—it seems the true date would coincide with the Chinese New Year.  Why the difference?  No one really knows, except the Mong who migrated down south seems to have only 28 days in their calendar—meaning that every 2-3 years, they “repeat” months.  Due to this reason, those who do not repeat months will celebrate their new year 2-3 months earlier—and this seems to be our issue right now…meaning this is why our new year begins sometimes in November.  The other reason is, possibly, we tend to practice our new year celebration right after rice harvesting.  I am not aware of when rice is ready to be harvested in China, but in Laos it is usually in November—and rice is the main dish of the New Year.

Anyway, the story goes like this:  Once a upon a time, in China, there was a Mong Kingdom being terrorized by a Monster.  Some call it Loob Nyug, some say it is just a monster of some sort.  This entity killed and ate many people, causing great confusion and terror, so many Mong fled the area.  Then, entered Txoov Siv Yig (Note:   There are two great followers of the SivYig from Heaven:  Txoov Siv Yig and Tooj Nchai Siv Yig).  Because the demonic entity had mesmerizing eyes and a cry that can killed any living being—Txoov had to “cover” his face and beat his shield to nullify the enemies cry and eyes.  Txoov eventually killed the beast—and it happened during rise harvesting.  When Txoov killed the beast, the cloth he used to blindfold himself was stained with blood—hence, some say Txoov was of the Vang Clan or “Vug” clan.

The Mong celebrated a time of great accomplishment for Txoov and the Mong.  The celebration is to “begin” a new year (after all the bad things that caused by the demon) and 3 days of celebration is to be performed—3 days of celebrations—10 dishes per day = NOJ 30…the receiving dish of the new year.

THIS IS NEW YEAR CELEBRATION—THE MAIN PURPOSE.  Just because I did not list other things, does not mean this is all we do at new year.

Hauvtoj is a little different.  It began with the death of Txiv Yawg.  The remaining generals fled to a nearby mountain side.  Those who were not captured or killed were lost.  The generals then cut down two trees—one was mounted on top of the mountain with Txiv Yawg’s flag to let the remaining people know where to gather, and the other pole was to be mounted down the valley where the group will meet.  These two poles are called “ncej ntxheb” and “ncej ntxhoo.”  Some call it ncej paag. 

After the generals realized that there was not enough soldiers to counter attack, they began to flee south—raising the two poles every chance they get to let Mong know where the main group was.  When they finally realized that they were not being chased, they stopped raising the flags/poles.  Eventually, people got busy with life and no time for the frequent ritual anymore.  Mong decided that, only one “raising” flag should be perform each year only—and the only time available was during the 3 days of New Year.  So, the ritual was placed during New Year—it can be before or after new year and usually uphold by “Xeev Laus.”

Hauvtoj is a time of unity for all Mong, with bull fights, badminton (tis qaib…some call it tshav qaib), and LUGTXAJ to tell about the misery of life (ntuj teb taag quas ncua…).  Over time, those who came south discovered “ball tossing” and adopted it from “Ncuav.” 

It is good to evolve cultures for the survival of an ethnic group.  However, when we start calling a ritual something else and claim that “we have always done it like this for thousands of years,” there is something wrong.

In summary:  New Year is more “religious” related, involving making offerings to ancestors, calling souls, txi xwm kab, inviting special guests for “tsab” or “30,” pe tsiab, etc  These things includes tso plig of both dead relatives and dead animals sacrificed over the years.  Most importantly, new year is celebrated (supposed to anyway) during a specific date (Mong date that is…).  Most importantly, new year is always in house because it involves any entities in the house.

Hauvtoj involves unity of the Mong as a whole, involves fun, ball tossing, checking out chicks, etc.  Anyone can organize the practice anytime they want because it does not depend on a certain date..in other words, it is not a new year.  Most importantly, it occurs outside (at a mountain side) with NCEJ NTXHEB AND NCEJ NTXHOO. It just sickens me to see “educated” Mong on stand with a sign saying “happy new year” on it.  What worst, it is sad to hear educated people saying “we have always done it like this for hundreds of years.”

More later

Yeah I heard of the term Hauv Toj. I believe it is a reference of Mong or Hmong Meemtoj it is a pole that sticks on the ground then flags or ribbons are attach. Hmong or Mong back in Southwestern China still does it. The word Huav Toj or Meem toj can be heard daily shaman if you paid close attention. Meemtoj basically mean support. Hauvtoj is support the center.

As for When is the Real Hmong New Year. I will say depends how you see it. It could coincide with the Chinese Lunar Calendar or between end of July-early August. The latter is true if you believe we use to live somewhere that has daylight for 6 months and darkness in 6 months; environment like the Gobi Desert.
These are variation of Hauv Toj or Meem Toj

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pWzb45S3NI

Sort of similar to Mongolian Aobao. But whatever.....



Trivia fact: When General Vang Pao created Longcheng or Longtieng or Looj Ceej is a reference of Looj Ceej Tsheeb. It basically mean Imperial capital. 龙京城 = LongJingCheng.


« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 04:39:31 PM by dlabtsi_os »

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NeejYagHawj

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2015, 11:20:41 AM »
It is not a matter of "believe" or not believe in what or what is.  the fact of the matter is, for some reason, when general vp came to power, the meaning of hauvtoj dissapeared.  "fun" and "courtship" was implemented into the hauvtoj instead of keeping the true meaning.  the mistake by the elders was that when new year comes....mong tsa hauvtoj.  over the years, the younger generation seem to think that the two are the same--but they are not.

the point of the post is to distinguish the two events:  new year and hauvtoj.  during new year, regardless if we lost the actual date of the new year, whenever we do it, it is still a new year--and i have a haunch that the mong who came to vietnam and laos forgot the date because their calendar system was not accurate.  instead, mong that came to laos/vietnam followed the harvesting of rice as a source of new year.

now, no matter when you celebrate  hauvtoj, it is still hauvtoj.  the two are not the same.  new year celebration involves dabqhua, and hauvtoj involves reunion of mong as a whole. 

the problem:  in the usa, scholars seem to think that hauvtoj is new year.  and every teen now things that we celebrate new year by going to an empty place and toss balls---NO!!!!!!  the povpob part is a hauvtoj...not a new year.



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chidorix0x

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2015, 02:41:56 PM »
/\/\  ...  kekeke  ...   :2funny:/ :idiot2:

Apparently your 70-year-old (or whomever you have been spoon-fed by) is telling you fairy tales.  And you, out of utter ignorance, naivety, and gullibility believe every bit of the nonsense as fact  ...  KEKEKE  ...   >:D/ ::)

Ha'HINT:
True, Hmoob lub Peb Caug thiab Hauvtoj, are different unique events, but they directly coincide with one another as the former precedes the latter by only a few days, or week at most.  One can even argue they are in fact one and the same celebration, just with two different venues, or celebratory objective.  (I do not care to explain this to all you ha'primitive ha'ignorant ha'clueless ha'idiotic HA'Mung ha'idiots  ...  KEKEKE  ...   >:D)

False (your 70-year-old lied), when GVP came to power, nothing changed regarding Hmoob lub Peb Caug thiab Hauvtoj except perhaps some cosmetic ehancements, if any.

False (your 70-year-old lied), "fun" and "courtship" is/was never implemented into Hmoob lub Hauvtoj.  You are confused/dumbfounded by the fact (possibly) because in China, the Miao/Hmong-Chinese primarily/only celebrate Hauvtoj and do not know/celebrate Hmoob lub Peb Caug.  Hmoob lub Peb Caug and Hauvtoj is a stable in Hmong culture/celebrations (especially in SEAsia).  Only in the USA/West has it deviated; thus Hauvtoj is practically nonexistent.  And only the lame New Year is annually observed.

False (your 70-year-old lied), Hauvtoj does not involve "reunion of mong as a whole".  You are confused/dumbfounded via your Miao/Hmong-Chinese nearsightednes s obsession.  (No explanation needed for all you ignorant HA'Mung  ...  KEKEKE  ...   >:D)

False (your 70-year-old lied), scholars DO NOT think (are confuse/dumbfounded like you) who New Year this Hauvtoj that nonsense.  Scholars' research are very grounded with unprecedented info, facts, and insight/knowledge -- NOT 70-year-old "BS".  Povpob IS NOT Hauvtoj.  Pobpov is DEFINITIVELY New Year.  Again, your 70-year-old spoonfed you "buLLShiETz", and you ate ever morsel like a ha'primitive ha'ignorant ha'clueless ha'idiotic HA'Mung ha'idiot  ...  KEKEKE  ...   >:D

False (your 70-year-old lied), whatever "buLLShiETz" you wanna believe and advertise via Miao/Hmong-Chinese fairy tales/nonsense DOES NOT directly apply to SEAsia Hmong who also happen to be USA/West Hmong (despite the SAD FACT that the majority of you now are nothing more than ha'primitive ha'clueless ha'ignorant ha'idiotic HA'Mung ha'idiots) with minimal to NO true knowledge, insight, and factual info about Hmong anything/everything except hearsay "BS"  ...  kekeke  ...   8)



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NeejYagHawj

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2015, 02:48:42 PM »
that is why you will always be a moron, relying on misinformed embelishments as your knowledge and basis for your own stupidity.  my hands to youl



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chidorix0x

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2015, 03:06:23 PM »
...  kekeke  ...   :2funny:

U embellish that persona ( :idiot2:) the best  ...  KEKEKE  ...   >:D



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Offline dlabtsi_os

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2015, 04:37:31 PM »
It is not a matter of "believe" or not believe in what or what is.  the fact of the matter is, for some reason, when general vp came to power, the meaning of hauvtoj dissapeared.  "fun" and "courtship" was implemented into the hauvtoj instead of keeping the true meaning.  the mistake by the elders was that when new year comes....mong tsa hauvtoj.  over the years, the younger generation seem to think that the two are the same--but they are not.

the point of the post is to distinguish the two events:  new year and hauvtoj.  during new year, regardless if we lost the actual date of the new year, whenever we do it, it is still a new year--and i have a haunch that the mong who came to vietnam and laos forgot the date because their calendar system was not accurate.  instead, mong that came to laos/vietnam followed the harvesting of rice as a source of new year.

now, no matter when you celebrate  hauvtoj, it is still hauvtoj.  the two are not the same.  new year celebration involves dabqhua, and hauvtoj involves reunion of mong as a whole. 

the problem:  in the usa, scholars seem to think that hauvtoj is new year.  and every teen now things that we celebrate new year by going to an empty place and toss balls---NO!!!!!!  the povpob part is a hauvtoj...not a new year.

Anecdotally, from my grandma (Born in 1933 or earlier) by the time Vang Pao was even born Hmong already stopped performing Hauv Toj. By 1920 H'Mong already have an autonomy from the French Imperialist. The last Hmong to speak of HauvToj or even celebrate was probably around the time of Paj Cai Vue rebellion. I remember watching a documentary youtube video of Hmong in 1955, and in that film the Hmong already adopt SouthEast Asian custom. E.g. Pov pob. If I can find the link I will provide it there.



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NeejYagHawj

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2015, 05:44:08 PM »
i am not sure exactly when hauvtoj was done away...but i am certain that people living in the suburbs/mountain of laos still celebrate it back in the 60s...in essense, people of mooshpeeb still celebrate it in the 60s.

however, what i am concerned with is the fact that poeple stop hauvtoj, yet, performs the same hauvtoj event and call it new year instead.  this is the big mistake that even the scholars now are just plain dumasses, not knowing the differences between the two.




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NeejYagHawj

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2015, 05:45:34 PM »
dhidorx...

i am not sure why you are so eagered to tell everyone that you're an idiot.  we already know that by the sign of you pointing to you own head, showing how twisted youare.



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NeejYagHawj

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2015, 05:46:57 PM »
the hmong of vietnam still performs the same...but i am not sure what they call it...is it a new year or a hauvtoj?   from what i know, the povpob tom tshav puam has always been a hauvtoj, regardless of ncej ntxheb is raised or not.



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chidorix0x

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Re: Mong New Year vs Mong Hauv Toj
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2015, 10:45:46 PM »
/\/\  ...  kekeke  ...   :2funny:/ :idiot2:

Only a/the ha'primitive ha'ignorant ha'clueless ha'idioctic HA'MUNG ha'ranting HA'MUNGINGLY ha'nonsense ha'incessantly would ha'stupidly infer and suggest that Hmong-Vietnamese and the Miao/Hmong-Chinese Hauvtoj is authentic, or the proverbial Hmong celebration -- lub Pebcaug thiab lub Hauvtoj. (Ha'HINT:  Both are oppressed more than Lao-Hmong, our direct fathers, mothers, and grandparents.  Get a Fawcking clue all you HA'MUNG ha'idiots. Ha'DUH!)

The FACT is most/ALL of you are ha'edumacated ha'primitive ha'ignorant ha'clueless ha'idioctic HA'MUNG ha'ranting HA'MUNGINGLY ha'nonsense ha'incessantly thus none of you would know anything FACTual of and about both/either celebration, except the "bullShietZ" coming from your crack pipes  ...  KEKEKE  ...   >:D

NO! I do not care to instill sound knowledge and wisdom that can ALL be scholarly researched, and proven, to ha'edumacated ha'primitive ha'ignorant ha'clueless ha'idioctic HA'MUNG ha'ranting HA'MUNGINGLY ha'nonsense ha'incessantly  ...  kekeke  ...  8)

( NO shocker there are so many HA'MUNG ha'idiots running rampant nowadays  ...  KEKEKE  ...   >:D/ ::))



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