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Author Topic: Everybody is Born Knowing God  (Read 1232 times)

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Offline Believe_N_Me

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Everybody is Born Knowing God
« on: June 28, 2017, 10:46:23 PM »
Thus, it is not evidence that the atheist needs in order to believe in God. It is his denial of God that makes him an atheist.

This is why Jesus is the Good News because even though they were born knowing God, they did not know that they were saved.



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Offline anonymouse

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 11:06:37 PM »
So you believe in innate knowledge?

I always thought you were more a blank slate.



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Try to change the things you cannot accept.

Offline Believe_N_Me

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 11:37:39 PM »
So you believe in innate knowledge?

I always thought you were more a blank slate.

Everybody is born knowing God. Now when I say "knowing", I am referring to knowing that they are created by something greater than themselves. It is very self-evident.




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Offline DJ-Jayce

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 11:51:41 PM »
Thus, it is not evidence that the atheist needs in order to believe in God. It is his denial of God that makes him an atheist.

This is why Jesus is the Good News because even though they were born knowing God, they did not know that they were saved.

Is this suppose to be sarcastic? It's not the opinion, but the order of things that seem off.

1. Humans appear [estimated estimated time 400k-100k years ago depending on what you consider human]
2. The concept of deities & religion appear [estimated time unknown, but does not appear before humanity]
3. Infinite deities & religions appear [estimated time, since the concept of deities & religion to the present & future]
4. The Abrahamic religions appears [estimated time, about 3500-3000 years ago]
5. Christianity religion appears [estimated time, about 2500-2000]

Christianity is not older than it's forefather, the Abrahamic religions. Definitely not older than other countless deities & religions before it. Not older than the concept of deities & religion. No is Christianity older than humanity itself.

This is the confusion with your statement. I don't deny the importance & benefits of deities & religions for those who seek it.

But there is an order to the flow of time. 1 comes before 2, 0 comes before 1.



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Offline Believe_N_Me

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 12:02:38 AM »
I am not referring to nomenclature. In fact, quite the opposite. Sometimes nomenclature can actually create confusion and cause people to fall away from knowing God.



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Offline DJ-Jayce

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 02:11:05 AM »
I am not referring to nomenclature. In fact, quite the opposite. Sometimes nomenclature can actually create confusion and cause people to fall away from knowing God.

Yes, nonclemature can cause confusion in religions. But my point isn't that, it's "The Egg or the Chicken" theory.

Your opinion is deities before humanity, my opinion based on historical fact & evidence is humanity before the concept of deities.

An aetheist isn't in denial of a dieties. Denial means possibility. The mindset of an aetheist is that there is no possibility of deities.
Asking an aetheist to believe in the possibility of deities is the same as asking them to believe in a 10 headed rainbow colored dragon that breathes Skittles. Both are impossibilities in their mindset.



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Offline w1s3m0n

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 03:01:06 AM »
Collective unconsciousnes s or genetic memory are terms used in the field of psychology and behavioral genetics.  The idea is a living animal is born with innate knowledge not obtain from sensory perception.  Meaning, someone did not learn something due to touch, sight, taste, feeling, hearing, etc...  The classical example are migratory birds being attuned to migration patterns without having been taught by their parents.  These birds know home because their brains are pre-wired to know home.  Perhaps, the idea presented here isn't far-fetched given every civilization to date have associations with some kind deities.



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Offline DJ-Jayce

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 04:21:47 AM »
Collective unconsciousnes s or genetic memory are terms used in the field of psychology and behavioral genetics.  The idea is a living animal is born with innate knowledge not obtain from sensory perception.  Meaning, someone did not learn something due to touch, sight, taste, feeling, hearing, etc...  The classical example are migratory birds being attuned to migration patterns without having been taught by their parents.  These birds know home because their brains are pre-wired to know home.  Perhaps, the idea presented here isn't far-fetched given every civilization to date have associations with some kind deities.

You're referring to instinct.

Instinct & innate knowledge are similar but not the same. IMO, innate knowledge is similar to omniscient. A human at conception being omniscient is highly improbable.

Extreme cases of wild children is the only example I can really think of that gives evidence that no innate knowledge was instilled at conception by a deity. Wild children survive due to instinct, trial & error, adaptation, even mimicing the animals around them. More a mindset of a wild animal than human. Lacking human language, mannerisms, civility, etc. Wild children gives evidence being born human doesn't mean you live as a human. They can be rehabilitated to be human, but that's due to human intervention.

If deities imparted something to us at creation, exactly what was it?



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Offline w1s3m0n

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 03:41:22 PM »
You're referring to instinct.

Instinct & innate knowledge are similar but not the same. IMO, innate knowledge is similar to omniscient. A human at conception being omniscient is highly improbable.

Extreme cases of wild children is the only example I can really think of that gives evidence that no innate knowledge was instilled at conception by a deity. Wild children survive due to instinct, trial & error, adaptation, even mimicing the animals around them. More a mindset of a wild animal than human. Lacking human language, mannerisms, civility, etc. Wild children gives evidence being born human doesn't mean you live as a human. They can be rehabilitated to be human, but that's due to human intervention.

If deities imparted something to us at creation, exactly what was it?

The wild child has its own conundrum.  Why?  It can be said that all man were once this wild child and not knowing learned knowledge and intelligence.  So how did man leap from being a wild child (assuming atheism) to changing to deism?  To me that's a greater conundrum.  I think to suggest man saw the celestial as gods makes it too easy because how did man understand there is celestial since he was a mere beast?  Obviously man was imparted with many things.  One, man was imparted with suffering.  Suffering drives progress.  Secondly, man was imparted with reason and faith.  If we take any of the 3 cornerstone of humanity: suffering, reason, or faith, man would fall apart.  Without reason, man would be beast.  Without faith, man would have no hope in tomorrow.  Without suffering, man would never grow to transcend beast. 

Lastly, you can call genetic memory or collective unconsciousnes s instinct, but all that is still pre-wired in the gene.  Today we know genetic data are in the TERABYTES for a single person and we only know about 3% of it is useful.  It means we have yet to discover what the 97% is for.  Much to learn we have as human being.  We are still babies when we scale it against the age of the Universe.  Hence, how can a baby even hope to make assertion about reality.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 03:54:11 PM by w1s3m0n »

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Offline lexicon

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 03:52:04 PM »
Good read. I wish PH had more posts like this.



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Offline w1s3m0n

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 03:57:10 PM »
So here's the other piece about migratory birds.  A team of genetics isolated for a specific bird the biomarker responsible for the "instinct" of migratory pattern.  One can argue that if we were to use CRISSPR and snipped the biomarker, the bird would simply die in the cold because it's genetic memory of home would be lost.  As DJ said instincts...an d then the birds would lose the instinct to fly home for winter.  Flying home for winter is instinct but more as we've found because the instincts are pre-programmed into a species as genetic information carried through the genes.  It is the way in which the evolutionary process gifts memory necessary for survival. 

I'll have to find the Nature Magazine article I read a couple years ago if people are interested in reading it.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 04:00:29 PM by w1s3m0n »

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Offline DuMa

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 04:34:39 PM »
Yes, nonclemature can cause confusion in religions. But my point isn't that, it's "The Egg or the Chicken" theory.

Your opinion is deities before humanity, my opinion based on historical fact & evidence is humanity before the concept of deities.

An aetheist isn't in denial of a dieties. Denial means possibility. The mindset of an aetheist is that there is no possibility of deities.
Asking an aetheist to believe in the possibility of deities is the same as asking them to believe in a 10 headed rainbow colored dragon that breathes Skittles. Both are impossibilities in their mindset.

The difference here is that your rainbow brite n skittles deity has zero references other than a 1 person hallucination.  I can take the same drug, same dose n i still don't see it.  With a universal god, those who describes thus god is all the same.  All powerful, all knowing that allows atheist to have a disbelief in him her or it. 

Im not here to say that the op statement is true but there is a perhaps in it.  The agnostic way of seeing it was. Like gulls on an island.  Every chicks know who their parents are.  Perhaps its instinct or perhaps it is through smell. Whatever the case, those are being created must somehow know who their creators are/is. 



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Offline DJ-Jayce

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2017, 07:38:21 PM »
The wild child has its own conundrum.  Why?  It can be said that all man were once this wild child and not knowing learned knowledge and intelligence.  So how did man leap from being a wild child (assuming atheism) to changing to deism?  To me that's a greater conundrum.  I think to suggest man saw the celestial as gods makes it too easy because how did man understand there is celestial since he was a mere beast?  Obviously man was imparted with many things.  One, man was imparted with suffering.  Suffering drives progress.  Secondly, man was imparted with reason and faith.  If we take any of the 3 cornerstone of humanity: suffering, reason, or faith, man would fall apart.  Without reason, man would be beast.  Without faith, man would have no hope in tomorrow.  Without suffering, man would never grow to transcend beast. 

Lastly, you can call genetic memory or collective unconsciousnes s instinct, but all that is still pre-wired in the gene.  Today we know genetic data are in the TERABYTES for a single person and we only know about 3% of it is useful.  It means we have yet to discover what the 97% is for.  Much to learn we have as human being.  We are still babies when we scale it against the age of the Universe.  Hence, how can a baby even hope to make assertion about reality.

I used extreme cases of Wild Children as my example because it's the cleanest slate. No human intervention can prove or disprove that what they know is simply from experience or deity intervention. In such extreme cases there is no discernable traces of what we would call "humanity", no different from a wild animal. I agree suffering drives progress in Wild Children, as proven in wild animals as well. Reason can be subjective in Wild Children. Is it Reason gifted by deities or Reason due to the human brain, experiences, even wild animals have reasoning through instinct, experiences, adaptation. Faith is beyond an extreme Wild Child's comprehension, as faith is beyond any wild animal's comprehension. But they do possess Will, even wild animals possess some form of it.

I do believe in the genetic memory theory as well. But that's due to thousands of years of genetics not deity intervention.



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Offline DJ-Jayce

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 07:58:02 PM »
The difference here is that your rainbow brite n skittles deity has zero references other than a 1 person hallucination.  I can take the same drug, same dose n i still don't see it.  With a universal god, those who describes thus god is all the same.  All powerful, all knowing that allows atheist to have a disbelief in him her or it. 

Im not here to say that the op statement is true but there is a perhaps in it.  The agnostic way of seeing it was. Like gulls on an island.  Every chicks know who their parents are.  Perhaps its instinct or perhaps it is through smell. Whatever the case, those are being created must somehow know who their creators are/is.

I wasn't using the Skittles dragon as reference but as an example. That in the mindset of an aetheist, deities & the Skittles dragon are no different, may as well be one & the same. I simply used the Skittles dragon as an extreme. Something more simpler and relatable would be mythical Santa Claus [ancient being, with magical reindeers, with infinite amount of bag space with infinite amount of gifts, able to travel the world in one Earth's rotation while accomplishing his goal.]

As for animals knowing their creators, they're are many examples in the animal kingdom even in more complex animals. That depends on species, they really wouldn't know their creators. They're are several bird species that lay eggs in another species' nest. Reason being that the other species would be more capable of increasing their offspring's chances to adulthood.

Even in humans, adopted children are some of the best examples of not ever knowing that their current parents aren't biological. Another example is babies switched at birth of not knowing their creators.



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Offline w1s3m0n

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Re: Everybody is Born Knowing God
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2017, 12:13:13 AM »
I used extreme cases of Wild Children as my example because it's the cleanest slate. No human intervention can prove or disprove that what they know is simply from experience or deity intervention. In such extreme cases there is no discernable traces of what we would call "humanity", no different from a wild animal. I agree suffering drives progress in Wild Children, as proven in wild animals as well. Reason can be subjective in Wild Children. Is it Reason gifted by deities or Reason due to the human brain, experiences, even wild animals have reasoning through instinct, experiences, adaptation. Faith is beyond an extreme Wild Child's comprehension, as faith is beyond any wild animal's comprehension. But they do possess Will, even wild animals possess some form of it.

I do believe in the genetic memory theory as well. But that's due to thousands of years of genetics not deity intervention.

I think if you can believe in genetic memory, then you can believe DNA is the source code of life.  I being taught programming know that no source code is written by chance -- 1 and 0 do not self organize, even genetic algorithm is written before it can self propagate. 



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