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Author Topic: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?  (Read 3608 times)

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Offline TheAfterLife

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2018, 04:50:11 PM »
If God is dead, why haven't the angels from Heaven and Hell come to kill all? They hate us as much from the beginning they did to us.



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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2018, 01:45:00 AM »
If God is dead, why haven't the angels from Heaven and Hell come to kill all? They hate us as much from the beginning they did to us.

Because they're too busy fighting a war in the other reality. Haven't you seen season 13 of supernatural?  ;D



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Offline DuMa

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2018, 01:34:37 PM »
Can't be dead if it never lived.

So I will accept his death if you accept his living.

 :2funny:



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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2018, 11:02:06 PM »
nope. That's not my logic. I never said anything about you not being a moral person before you have faith in god. You are an amoral person whether it was before or during your belief in god. This is because you are only doing things out of fear.

Oh but I wasn't a morally good person before I've come to believe in God. I still sin everyday. Just being transparent here.

Yes, I fear God which lead me to believe. The Bible said to Repent and believe the Gospel. It's what Jesus and His apostles used.

As one wise preacher once said, "Until sinners hear the bad news, they are not ready to hear the Good News."

You're presupposing that somehow this is bad. I argue that it's not. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and hell is really real.

Actually, god rather accept a person who does not to do bad things because he knows that it is wrong and choose not to do it. That's why Noah was saved.

Noah was righteous before God, yes, but I don't think he was perfect like any other, but the Lord knows his/our hearts, and the remorse we feel when we sin against Him.

Righteous means right standing. He obey God and followed God's directions against what the public said to him. I don't have to listen to what you or others say, just read what God's word says about Noah.

That's why they are not a moral person. A moral person will still choose to not rob a bank even if they know they can get away with it. That's the difference between being moral and immoral. And This would mean that morality is subjective.

True, robbing a bank is wrong and immoral. If God does not exist, then moral is not objective in this way it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

So everything is subjective. But, by doing what you said, (above in bold), you just described yourself as being self righteous. And this is why fear isn't a good thing. This is the result of fear. You follow "rules" commanded by god only out of fear so your life was/is always meaningless from the start. Morality is thrown out the window. So you just shown that objective morality doesn't exist. And this is why your argument for divine command theory fails because your premise "2. Objective morals exist

Actually, no, I feel like if I remove God out of my life, I would feel more fear and have no remorse. When I am united in Christ, it changes all that.

What really happen as an atheist is this will extended into a fear that you know you are not actually saved, and a deep fear of hell set in.

What I am saying is when you remove God out of your life, you remove all the moral duties and responsibility that came with it.




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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2018, 11:11:56 PM »
There's no need to mention the bible. The structure of your argument is fallacious because it's circular reasoning

It's only circular because I keep taking you back around to the truth.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2018, 03:45:05 AM »
It's only circular because I keep taking you back around to the truth.

LoL.  Apparently you're ignorant of circular reasoning. You are going back to the truth. Your reason is circular because your conclusion is used as your premise.



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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2018, 05:14:53 PM »
The Moral argument for God goes like this...

1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist regards to the existence of god
2. Objective morals exist regards to the existence of objective morality
3. Therefore God exists  regards to the existence of god


Why it's circular reasoning. The conclusion is the same as premise 1.

Using premise 1 wouldn't be circular reasoning if the conclusion is about objective morality.

Example:
1. If God does not exist, objective morals donít exist
2. God exist
3. Therefore objective morality exists

This wouldn't be circular reasoning but of course it is still a fallacy, just a different one, because there has to be proof of god's existence first.



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Offline TheAfterLife

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2018, 07:46:20 PM »
Because they're too busy fighting a war in the other reality. Haven't you seen season 13 of supernatural?  ;D

Not true. In bible history, they hated us. If God is dead, why aren't we dead yet?



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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2018, 09:34:57 PM »
It's not circular. It's more about the origin of the morals and how they can't be subjective, otherwise everyone would have a different meaning of right and wrong and that's not what we find.

You can say it's circular until you are blue in the face for all I care. You still have to know it's origin before you can even come to that conclusion.

If there are morals, there is a moral law giver.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2018, 11:37:54 PM »
Oh but I wasn't a morally good person before I've come to believe in God. I still sin everyday. Just being transparent here.

Yes, I fear God which lead me to believe. The Bible said to Repent and believe the Gospel. It's what Jesus and His apostles used.

As one wise preacher once said, "Until sinners hear the bad news, they are not ready to hear the Good News."

You're presupposing that somehow this is bad. I argue that it's not. Apparently you don't know what presupposing means because I never said anything of the sort. I refuted your argument by using your own example, showing that you yourself, proved you wrong. And posting a random quote that has nothing to do with your argument doesn't help you in any way. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and hell is really real.

Noah was righteous before God, yes, but I don't think he was perfect like any other, but the Lord knows his/our hearts, and the remorse we feel when we sin against Him.

Righteous means right standing. He obey God and followed God's directions against what the public said to him. I don't have to listen to what you or others say, just read what God's word says about Noah.

True, robbing a bank is wrong and immoral. If God does not exist, then moral is not objective in this way it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.

Actually, no, I feel like if I remove God out of my life, I would feel more fear and have no remorse. You just refuted your own argument. You showed that objective morality doesn't exist. Morality is subjective based on your own feelings
(Fear)
When I am united in Christ, it changes all that.

What really happen as an atheist is this will extended into a fear that you know you are not actually saved, and a deep fear of hell set in. This would be an example of presupposition . I'll explain why it is. You assume that atheists believe in what you believe in and concluded that they fear hell like you do.

What I am saying is when you remove God out of your life, you remove all the moral duties and responsibility that came with it. And with this, you just proved that you don't think that objective morality exist. Going by your logic, either, A. morality is subjective based on the individual. Morality does not come from god.  Or B, "morality" is forced on to you by god, and that is not morality. Or c, you don't know what morality means. And this is why your argument fail like I mentioned earlier. And this is why fear of hell is a bad thing because you don't know/believe that murder is wrong. The reason why you don't commit murder is not because it's wrong, but because you are scared of hell, and when you are no longer afraid of hell, you choose to do immoral acts. 



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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2018, 05:35:43 AM »
Not true. In bible history, they hated us. If God is dead, why aren't we dead yet?

Because we don't need god.



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Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2018, 09:56:14 AM »
This would be an example of presupposition . I'll explain why it is. You assume that atheists believe in what you believe in and concluded that they fear hell like you do.

A materialistic worldview ultimately leads to moral skepticism, nihilism is the final condition of atheist.

If are an atheist and you disagree... then you are contradicting yourself.

You just refuted your own argument. You showed that objective morality doesn't exist. Morality is subjective based on your own feelings

I think that's how it is when God is removed. Fear sets in. You either are driven by Faith or Fear. I think being an atheist led to more fear than being a Christian.

And with this, you just proved that you don't think that objective morality exist. Going by your logic, either, A. morality is subjective based on the individual. Morality does not come from god.  Or B, "morality" is forced on to you by god, and that is not morality. Or c, you don't know what morality means. And this is why your argument fail like I mentioned earlier. And this is why fear of hell is a bad thing because you don't know/believe that murder is wrong. The reason why you don't commit murder is not because it's wrong, but because you are scared of hell, and when you are no longer afraid of hell, you choose to do


If you don't believe in God, you can't necessarily believe that murder is inherently wrong. Let me ask you a question. How do you know murder is wrong?

Even if you think murder is still wrong, you will have to show that being an atheist and having objective morality is NOT mutually exclusive. You haven't done that yet.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline Yengimer

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2018, 09:57:54 AM »
Because we don't need god.

There you go. You are already presupposing that you don't need God. So of course your conclusion = God does not exist!

But everyone has presupposition al. Nobody is neutral.



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John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2018, 01:58:02 AM »
There you go. You are already presupposing that you don't need God. So of course your conclusion = God does not exist!

But everyone has presupposition al. Nobody is neutral.

Do you even know the definition of presuppose? Someone disagreeing with you is the definition of presuppose.

There is no presupping in the answer that I gave. I'll explain it to you. I answered Theafterlife's question,  "If God is dead, why aren't we dead yet?" In this topic's scenario, god is without a doubt.  And since we are still alive, we don't require god to be alive for us to be alive. If we need for us to live, then we would be dead, if is dead.

Now you what fear can do to you? You're so scared in the possibility of god not existing that it makes you want to defend god every time you have a discussion with an atheist whether it's about the existence of god or not.

Throughout this thread, I never argued for or against the existence of god. I argued that the divine command theory fails.




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Offline dogmai

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Re: God Is Dead -- What are the consequences?
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2018, 09:01:37 AM »
A materialistic worldview ultimately leads to moral skepticism, nihilism is the final condition of atheist. Failed again. That's only an assertion. No evidence, so it doesn't mean that it's true.

If are an atheist and you disagree... then you are contradicting yourself. Failed again. If that's not the beliefs of an atheist,  than he/she is not contradicting themselves.

I think that's how it is when God is removed. Fear sets in. That's a possibility if you're a theist. God can't be removed from an atheist if it wasn't there to begin with. You either are driven by Faith or Fear.Failed again. False dichotomy. I think being an atheist led to more fear than being a Christian. Failed again. In regards to this topic, your logic shows that a Christian has more fear than an atheist because you have one more fear than an atheist,
Your fear of hell. I'm not claiming that it's true but, in this thread, a Christian has been showing us a lot of his fears.

 

If you don't believe in God, you can't necessarily believe that murder is inherently wrong. Let me ask you a question. How do you know murder is wrong?still waiting on your evidence. You've dodging the question when you were asked earlier

Even if you think murder is still wrong, you will have to show that being an atheist and having objective morality is NOT mutually exclusive. You haven't done that yet.Still waiting on your evidence



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