What is the Original language? White or Green?

[CheejSiav]

CheejSiav,

About Hmong rituals, taboos, and clan-centric ceremonies, you are asking for the impossible. It is all I am saying. The topic alone is pointless and beyond the scope of any ritual expert or individual, no matter who he/she is and what their level of expertise may be - ancient or modern.

Much like this "original language" discussion, there is absolutely no irrefutable fact or data to try to even make an educated much less sound argument one way or another. As a matter of fact, this Hmong ritual subject is even less creditable one way or another versus the "original language" discussion.

Per my experiences, observation, and community research, as there is no scholarships whatsoever regarding this subject matter, the Hmong just did whatever they wanted, remembered, knew, and felt what is best for them, their clan or family, and that just became the norm including all the variants, changes, additions, minus, and inclusion or exclusion of Western influences and adaptations. For examp: Hmong now have singing the gospels and prayers in a Hmong-Christian funeral that includes traditional Hmong-centric practices like killing cows=ntaus nyuj hauv qhua, donations=nyiaj tshav ntuj, and giving thanks=ua tsaug. WTF?

That is why Hmong has a too well-known verbage that says, "Ib rab teb. Ib yam txuj." It means, "One town, city, state, village, country, clan, master, student, practitioner, apprentice, one entirely unique method, practice, way, ritual, and/or managed custom." literally. There lies the answer to your question, directly from the horse's mouth - Hmong.

This is why I have been arguing for ages that Hmong need to start standardizing it's language, culture, and customs. Of course, this is asking for the "impossible" I know. Hmong have too many "experts", "elites", and "educated wanna-bes" nowadays to accept or rally a consensus towards this cause imho -  .

Now if we're asking to standardize the Hmong language it would be an agreement on both dialect to make it work. And as a matter of fact we are White Hmong are being use more proficiently and we have more White Hmong script printed out than Green Hmong. . .but the thing that I don't get is what's with these Church that are being establish and are strictly speaking Green Hmong? Hmong Alliance Church in California for example have indicated that God himself knows only Green Hmong and White Hmong is to be prohibited! WTF?? If we keep on having individuals who rise up and lead the community two ways we as a community won't go anywhere we'll have to sit down with the leaders, elders, and Hmong overall and discuss on standardizing the Hmong language to make it official for world wide acknowledgemen t and formality. At this pace I'm seeing it impossible unless the younger generation rise up before all the elderly people dies off to still maintain our language and come with a reconciliation .

[chidorix0x]

Now if we're asking to standardize the Hmong language it would be an agreement on both dialect to make it work. And as a matter of fact we are White Hmong are being use more proficiently and we have more White Hmong script printed out than Green Hmong. . .but the thing that I don't get is what's with these Church that are being establish and are strictly speaking Green Hmong? Hmong Alliance Church in California for example have indicated that God himself knows only Green Hmong and White Hmong is to be prohibited! WTF?? If we keep on having individuals who rise up and lead the community two ways we as a community won't go anywhere we'll have to sit down with the leaders, elders, and Hmong overall and discuss on standardizing the Hmong language to make it official for world wide acknowledgemen t and formality. At this pace I'm seeing it impossible unless the younger generation rise up before all the elderly people dies off to still maintain our language and come with a reconciliation .

First, without going to known historic community specific examples, incidents, and antagonism, let me just point to a few PH individuals such as "joot" and "HUNG TU LO" - who by their own admission are Green Hmong - who adamantly will defend Green and disavow anything White. Need I say more. (And "joot" and "HUNG TU LO", before you get your undies tied in a knot, I am merely putting to your PH comments/posts/opinions on matter of Green and White, not you specifically. I apologize in advance if I am being to direct.)

Lastly, if White is scripted more historically than Green, would that not make an argument that White is the original script/language -  ,  .

[HUNG TU LO]

....let me just point to a few PH individuals such as "joot" and "HUNG TU LO" - who by their own admission are Green Hmong - who adamantly will defend Green and disavow anything White.

First of all, here's my post history: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6916
I just read this thread from the sidelines. I've never posted on this thread so how can I disavow anything about the topic?

Secondly, I helped someone with how to address in-laws who are Hmoob leeg because I am Hmoob dawb and had to learn it for myself. If you can copy and paste my quote where I claim to be Hmoob leeg, I will ban myself from PH for lifetime.

Not only is your grammar an epic mess and your sentence structures resemble a struggling middle school student, your memory is like that of a goldfish. You can't even remember who your debating with and on what topic.

Chidori to the face, again.

[chidorix0x]

First of all, here's my post history: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6916
I just read this thread from the sidelines. I've never posted on this thread so how can I disavow anything about the topic?

Secondly, I helped someone with how to address in-laws who are Hmoob leeg because I am Hmoob dawb and had to learn it for myself. If you can copy and paste my quote where I claim to be Hmoob leeg, I will ban myself from PH for lifetime.

Not only is your grammar an epic mess and your sentence structures resemble a struggling middle school student, your memory is like that of a goldfish. You can't even remember who your debating with and on what topic.

Chidori to the face, again.

   ...   

your - is a grammar epic mess

Any grammar aficionado would grammatically (correctly) use "you're", not "your" -  ,  , 

Ooops! I realized I made some "typo and grammatic" mistakes in my previous post/comment too -  . Oh wells,  , need more proofreading. Not!

[Great Sage]

Now if we're asking to standardize the Hmong language it would be an agreement on both dialect to make it work. And as a matter of fact we are White Hmong are being use more proficiently and we have more White Hmong script printed out than Green Hmong. . .but the thing that I don't get is what's with these Church that are being establish and are strictly speaking Green Hmong? Hmong Alliance Church in California for example have indicated that God himself knows only Green Hmong and White Hmong is to be prohibited! WTF?? If we keep on having individuals who rise up and lead the community two ways we as a community won't go anywhere we'll have to sit down with the leaders, elders, and Hmong overall and discuss on standardizing the Hmong language to make it official for world wide acknowledgemen t and formality. At this pace I'm seeing it impossible unless the younger generation rise up before all the elderly people dies off to still maintain our language and come with a reconciliation .

Why would you care if a church decides to speak Green or White Hmong? The fact is, Hmong have two dialects (or maybe it can be called 2 languages) and its up to peope which one they prefer. In any case, it's none of your business what version of Hmong someone decides to speak.

As for standardizatio n, the same principle applies. Why should someone who is born Green be forced to speak and read White Hmong? Vice versa... It's a ridiculous notion that everyone must conform to someone's idea of a "standard." Do you know what standards are used for? A standard is a measurement upon where things begin to deviate. For example, there's standard English, then there's slang, jargons and everything else that doesn't fit in. There's even dialects and spoonerisms that don't fit into standard English. The point being, language is ever-evolving and rather than add to the problem, it's a better idea to build on it.

My last point is directed at your attitude. I don't not support your views because you, like your friend Chido, have an elitist/seperatist point of view. You guys like to point the finger at the other Hmong group while maintaining that your side is correct and flawless. This is not the attitude of someone who is looking out for the greater good of all Hmong. We are Hmong and if we can't get along, it means we are all failing.

[EliteZero01]

English   Hmong                    Sinitic
arm        (thxais) npab           ban
help       pab                          bang
friend     phooj ywg                phung you (Mandarin = Pheng yu).
car         tsheb                       zhe (chay)

Npab = can also mean "crazy" but actually it's a adopted word from Laotian.  "Vwm" is Hmong's for "crazy."

Npab = is an "arm," but you always put "txhais" before it.  It wouldn't be completely incorrect, but still no one should just say "Kuv npab."  "Npaab" is the Green Hmong version of it.  Either version requires the "txhais" before it to sound correct.

Pab = can also mean a "group" in White Hmong.  Same for Green Hmong "paab" - Help or Group.  Example:  Koj yog pab twg?  Or:  Koj yog paab twg?  Which group are you?

[todspengo]

@CheejSiav In that respect, you are correct; however, Leng will be closer to Middle Hmong since they retain 3 ending rhymes ang, ing, ung, where as De dropped ang. Linguistic pattern shows that the further a language diverge from it's origin, the more ending consonants and vowels it drops.

On the topic of country. We do have a country. We have just as much claim to China as the Hans. From the Yangtze River delta http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full to Fenghuang town http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang_County . Never give up a birthright.

@chidorix0x Hmong as a language have more rules and standards than you think. Examples below.

@YeejKoob13 Whether it's spelled Miao, Hmong, or Mong, it's just a label. If one person excel, (Song zuying, Song Branda, etc..) we all get a good name, if one person screws up (no name provided to prevent family humiliation but you know who they are), we all get a bad name.

@EliteZero01 txhais is a classifier denoting living noun limbs, and is not part of the noun npab. I didn't put a classifier in front of tsheb or phooj ywg either. standards and rules for classifiers are:
for inanimate nouns is lub..
lub tsheb
lub qhov rooj
lub tog

for animate nouns is tus..
tus nyuj
tus twm
tus neeh

animate noun limbs is txhais
txhais tes
txhais taw
txhais npab

small hand held nouns is rab
rab yuam sij
rab taus
rab pas

classifiers can change meanings of a noun
daim ntawv  a blank paper
tsab ntawv a written paper
phau ntawv a book
but they are not part of the noun.

I am aware that the average Hmong word has more than one definitions.
siab= heart, liver, high, tall
daus= snow, dip
tsim= wake up, torture, create

[EliteZero01]

Just wondering what a "neeh" is.  Never heard it before unless it's a typo.

You should teach a Hmong class.

[CheejSiav]

Why would you care if a church decides to speak Green or White Hmong? The fact is, Hmong have two dialects (or maybe it can be called 2 languages) and its up to peope which one they prefer. In any case, it's none of your business what version of Hmong someone decides to speak.

As for standardizatio n, the same principle applies. Why should someone who is born Green be forced to speak and read White Hmong? Vice versa... It's a ridiculous notion that everyone must conform to someone's idea of a "standard." Do you know what standards are used for? A standard is a measurement upon where things begin to deviate. For example, there's standard English, then there's slang, jargons and everything else that doesn't fit in. There's even dialects and spoonerisms that don't fit into standard English. The point being, language is ever-evolving and rather than add to the problem, it's a better idea to build on it.

My last point is directed at your attitude. I don't not support your views because you, like your friend Chido, have an elitist/seperatist point of view. You guys like to point the finger at the other Hmong group while maintaining that your side is correct and flawless. This is not the attitude of someone who is looking out for the greater good of all Hmong. We are Hmong and if we can't get along, it means we are all failing.

Great sage,

Whether your a Great Sage or not Hmong have already standardize their language and it's the White Hmong along with a few Green Hmong but what happen? one of the Green Hmong professor didn't like the idea that we're finally getting a long and so he started this whole clash of "what about the Green Hmong dialect? We need to get that dialect into the system too!" duh the selected words are already in the White Hmong dictionary! We don't need to go to war to proof who's greater than who, when we have organize ourselves and have come to conformity of a specific language we should just stick with it. And that's why Hmong never flourish because they want self aggrandizement! How pathetic

[CheejSiav]

Just wondering what a "neeh" is.  Never heard it before unless it's a typo.

You should teach a Hmong class.

Where did you get that? That look like the mien tone. The "h" tone being similar to the "m" tone in Hmong

Yiem longx nyieh saah?

[todspengo]

Neeh is a typo and what I was trying to write is neeg.

@chidorix0x I wasn't going to touch on the six months of darkness and such but here's a link to clarify some of those confusions so as not to confuse Hmong people on their origin.

http://www.hmongtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=190&ArticleID=978&TM=64337.16

Although I disagree with Dr. Gary Yia Lee on most points regarding his beliefs in Hmong culture, and I believe he creates more division than unity between us and our cousins in China, based on my hobby of studying neolithic Chinese cultures, Asian languages, Hmong rituals and Asian genetics (disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert on the subject matter nor am I a scholar) my conclusion to the origin of Hmong people concurs with his.

What makes a person a Hmong is 3 things: the qeej (lusheng), the qhuab ke (the guiding) and the nruas (drum), and they must be used for rituals. All three major branches does this. The difference in dialects are mostly from borrow words, but the universal words are the same pronounced differently.  Here is a link to a video someone has put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9gzKWR-lk

When linguists reconstruct languages, they look for universal words like fire, water and mountains, and locations of possible origins, then compare them. Words like lions and tigers and bears are used to determined places of origins. So if Hmong have the word snow, but lives in South East Asia where there aren't any snow, then it is compare to other languages in the region with snow to see if it might have been borrowed. If the word that Hmong use for snow is unique then it is a Hmong word, and it also points to an origin where there are snow. The word for snow in Hmong is daus xib dau nphoo, sometimes shorten to just daus. As you can see, this is actually not a word but a description, there for, Hmong could not have originated from a place of snow and ice, and instead, use a description to explain it.

You'd probably argue, well, people might forget a word or replaces them. That's true also, that's why you compare all the dialects to eliminate the borrowed words. Take the word ta lat which means a store or a market in Tai (Thai and Lao is a nationality and ethnic designation, not a language. Just like you don't speak Australian or American). The Hmong word is kiab. Sometimes it's said with the compound kiab khw, sometimes it's said with just khw. However, kiab is the noun and khw is the adjective. Khw is a tonal change called sound sandhi from the word khwv, which is to work ie.. kiab khwv. If only 2 of 32 dialect uses ta lat, then it's eliminated as an original word.

On the topic of sound sandhi, an examples of one the rules for the Hmong language is, in counting months, if the adjectives ends with the "b" or "j" tone, then tone for hli is changed to hlis.
ib hlis
ob hlis
peb hlis
plaub hlis
tsib hlis
rau hli
xya hli
yim hli
cuaj hlis
kaum hli

There are many more of these rules.

Edit: fixed the link to my previous post to Funghuang town. there are many many beautiful towns our forefathers built in China
Zhenyauan http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/guizhou/kaili/wuyanghe.htm
Dehang http://taiwandiscovery.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/beautiful-dehang-the-perfect-place-to-recover-from-the-rigors-of-china-travel/

[Great Sage]

Great sage,

Whether your a Great Sage or not Hmong have already standardize their language and it's the White Hmong along with a few Green Hmong but what happen? one of the Green Hmong professor didn't like the idea that we're finally getting a long and so he started this whole clash of "what about the Green Hmong dialect? We need to get that dialect into the system too!" duh the selected words are already in the White Hmong dictionary! We don't need to go to war to proof who's greater than who, when we have organize ourselves and have come to conformity of a specific language we should just stick with it. And that's why Hmong never flourish because they want self aggrandizement! How pathetic

If that's the case, then why are you so offended that people want to speak or write Green Hmong? Honestly, I could care less what dialect anyone speaks. They have a right to do whatever they want. I can speak White and Green; and I encourage everyone to be able to do both. It's not so difficult. The difference is not Mandarin and Cantonese by any stretch.

Look here... I only care about the greater good of Hmong. Anyone who wants to create division or separation; they do on their own. I hope Hmong people are smart enough to know what's good for them. If some new intellect devises a standard Hmong that works better and everyone agrees, except me; who do you think is in the right? I don't think it would be me. In contrast, if someone came and said Green Hmong was gospel and anyone who denied it was ignorant, I believe most Hmong would oppose this idea too. Therefore, I'm certainly in favor of progress... How about you?

[chidorix0x]

todspengo,

I appreciate your perspective/input - coming from the linguistic angle versus other folks who were just blabbering "bs", not knowing top from bottom. Whereas linguistic markers are the primary ammo of an ethnographer, sociologist and anthropologist are rooted in custom, culture, and daily life routines; such as farming, hunting, and gathering etc.. Admittingly, I have not read much scholarship on ethnography, the linguistics perspective, as those are not as popular or publicly advertised over their peers, but know all too well anthropologist s, sociologists, and ethnographers do not always see "eye to eye". And each school has arguably made just as plausible an explanation to dismiss the other. That said, I have not seen nor read enough scholarships on the Hmong language - specifically linguistics, to uphold or refute your perspective. We, those who are remotely educated, rationale/reasoned, and of sound mind, all know too well that the Hmong language has borrowed from Chinese, Lao, Thai, English, and who knows what other non-Hmong language. This is a global fact for any and all language. The reverse can be said or argued as well, for ep., Mong (English, wrong pronunciation by the way) for Hmoob/Moob. My point here is, much like what is within this thread among plenty of other Hmong topics/discussion, we really just do not know or know enough one way or another. What I do know, is that the more I learn about Hmong history, language, culture, and customs, the more I am prone (convinced) to be very opinionated about specific subject matters. Why? Because afterwards I have some or seemingly enough information to logically (sometimes even bias) conceptualize a plausible conclusion - truth if you want to call it that. That has been my "argument/point" more than not. And yes, I do not take lightly to those who want to "rant", believing they know a thing or two solely based on second-hand scholarship or "hearsay" - yet cannot make a sound argument or cite any scholarship when pressed.

As for the "daus" and "kiab" words, yes, from my personal field inquiries/conversation (research) with the elders, they do mean "snow/ice" and "market/store" respectively. As for your other insight, I am not sure I completely agree with you. Specific to "daus", how can one simply come up with a word or phrase just to explain something they have never seen firsthand. Hmong, our ancestors, must have either lived in a land, or seen "snow/ice" firsthand else they would have never had a word for it. It is unfathomable. The Hmong language, unlike English and other worldly language, sometimes do not have a single word or vocabulary for a thing, place, or item; thus the word is typically a "descriptive phrase", using several word(s) combination. Here is just but one example of many. Take the word "airplane". The borrowed or re-interpreted Hmong word from the Lao word "ngoo hoo" (typo I'm sure) is "nyob hoom". Those who do not know better will argue that this is in fact a native Hmong word. It is not. The actual Hmong word for "airplane" is "dav hlau" - literally "iron bird/hawk" - a "descriptive phrase" as we can see. "Daus" and "kiab/khws(v)" are not descriptive to my knowledge, as far as how I know/understand Hmong. The point here is, one cannot simply just make up a "description" or "phrase" for something they have not witnessed first-hand. The "airplane" being "dav hlau", thus it is only logical that "snow/ice" was called "daus" or "npuag dub npuag dau" or "daus xib dau nphoo".

Sorry, but I am not going to comment on the "lusheng" or "qeej" thing. That gets too diluted and is out of context imho.

Anyway, good points and good research. Thanks for sharing. These are the kind of comments/posts I enjoy reading and commenting to. (I'm always open to broadening my personal study of Hmong history and knowledge data-bank.)

[CheejSiav]

If that's the case, then why are you so offended that people want to speak or write Green Hmong? Honestly, I could care less what dialect anyone speaks. They have a right to do whatever they want. I can speak White and Green; and I encourage everyone to be able to do both. It's not so difficult. The difference is not Mandarin and Cantonese by any stretch.

Look here... I only care about the greater good of Hmong. Anyone who wants to create division or separation; they do on their own. I hope Hmong people are smart enough to know what's good for them. If some new intellect devises a standard Hmong that works better and everyone agrees, except me; who do you think is in the right? I don't think it would be me. In contrast, if someone came and said Green Hmong was gospel and anyone who denied it was ignorant, I believe most Hmong would oppose this idea too. Therefore, I'm certainly in favor of progress... How about you?

And that's what I'm pin pointing about these churches. When Hmong have establish a standardize system already why break us up trying to have division like Church learn and speak Green Hmong so that they can show pride in themselves that Green Hmong is the actual language. Now think about it, I wouldn't go and establish a church and said that God only knows White Hmong not Green Hmong so everybody speak White Hmong in the Church please. That's just prejudice and that is to your point segregating the common people. I go to family that are White Hmong house but speaks Green Hmong and when i speak white Hmong to them they said "you're not suppose to speak White Hmong because God doesn't know White Hmong he only knows Green Hmong" I then pause and think which fckface would brain wash somebody into thinking that??? Now that's from experience. And I'm pretty sure it's not an intention for the pastor to simply think that God only speaks Green Hmong but he's probably trying to fight this language thing by converting people over to Green Hmong by lying to everybody about "God only speaks and understand Green Hmong."
I agree with you that anybody, anyone can speak whatever language that they want to as long as you don't segregate and divide the community into groups like this.

[CheejSiav]

Neeh is a typo and what I was trying to write is neeg.

@chidorix0x I wasn't going to touch on the six months of darkness and such but here's a link to clarify some of those confusions so as not to confuse Hmong people on their origin.

http://www.hmongtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=190&ArticleID=978&TM=64337.16

Although I disagree with Dr. Gary Yia Lee on most points regarding his beliefs in Hmong culture, and I believe he creates more division than unity between us and our cousins in China, based on my hobby of studying neolithic Chinese cultures, Asian languages, Hmong rituals and Asian genetics (disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert on the subject matter nor am I a scholar) my conclusion to the origin of Hmong people concurs with his.

What makes a person a Hmong is 3 things: the qeej (lusheng), the qhuab ke (the guiding) and the nruas (drum), and they must be used for rituals. All three major branches does this. The difference in dialects are mostly from borrow words, but the universal words are the same pronounced differently.  Here is a link to a video someone has put together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9gzKWR-lk

When linguists reconstruct languages, they look for universal words like fire, water and mountains, and locations of possible origins, then compare them. Words like lions and tigers and bears are used to determined places of origins. So if Hmong have the word snow, but lives in South East Asia where there aren't any snow, then it is compare to other languages in the region with snow to see if it might have been borrowed. If the word that Hmong use for snow is unique then it is a Hmong word, and it also points to an origin where there are snow. The word for snow in Hmong is daus xib dau nphoo, sometimes shorten to just daus. As you can see, this is actually not a word but a description, there for, Hmong could not have originated from a place of snow and ice, and instead, use a description to explain it.

You'd probably argue, well, people might forget a word or replaces them. That's true also, that's why you compare all the dialects to eliminate the borrowed words. Take the word ta lat which means a store or a market in Tai (Thai and Lao is a nationality and ethnic designation, not a language. Just like you don't speak Australian or American). The Hmong word is kiab. Sometimes it's said with the compound kiab khw, sometimes it's said with just khw. However, kiab is the noun and khw is the adjective. Khw is a tonal change called sound sandhi from the word khwv, which is to work ie.. kiab khwv. If only 2 of 32 dialect uses ta lat, then it's eliminated as an original word.

On the topic of sound sandhi, an examples of one the rules for the Hmong language is, in counting months, if the adjectives ends with the "b" or "j" tone, then tone for hli is changed to hlis.
ib hlis
ob hlis
peb hlis
plaub hlis
tsib hlis
rau hli
xya hli
yim hli
cuaj hlis
kaum hli

There are many more of these rules.

Edit: fixed the link to my previous post to Funghuang town. there are many many beautiful towns our forefathers built in China
Zhenyauan http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/guizhou/kaili/wuyanghe.htm
Dehang http://taiwandiscovery.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/beautiful-dehang-the-perfect-place-to-recover-from-the-rigors-of-china-travel/

This is excellent Thanks for the Intel topspengo. Can you elaborate more on tone sandhi a lot of people in here probably don't quite understand it because it is complicate to comprehend why we have them in our daily social system and why we don't recognize them but say them the way it is said following a high tone