PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: CheejSiav on January 05, 2013, 09:18:32 PM
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I've done some studies and have come upon the details of Hmong originated from Mongolia to China. The last war that Chi You had with Huang Di was because of conflict between two different culture and beliefs knowing the detail that after Chi You was defeated that the Hmong culture was impacted deeply had a significant change to the Hmong culture, beliefs, and language. Now concerning my understanding and obvious of the way language works. White Hmong has maintain the closest language to during the Ming Dynasty why I say so is because after Chi You lost the war with Huang Di Hmong from the San Miao have been travelling to Southern China to evade and avoid captivity from Chinese regulations and changes to the overall ethnic language and writing systems. So the ones that were able and willing to travel decide to travel down Southern China, Laos, and Thailand were able to maintain the language which is the White Hmong language. So here breaking it up to three geographical terrain: from studies if we go back to China we can surely know the reason why and it's because of this. Go to Northern China and they will claim themselves Hmong but they speak fluent Mandarin no Hmong at all, Central China and they speak Hmong Suav which we can still understand but it's like listening to a baby speak to you, Southern China and they speak Hmong Green/Leng which we can understand more profoundly than Hmong Suav, and lastly Laos/ Thailand White Hmong. Here we see that Hmong ARE Nomads and how we maintain our language is through travelling and working together because what would happen when we settle down in a different society? Our language starts to become adapted to theirs and that's when we get the kuv mus bathroom or kuv mus hoob nab instead of the kuv mus tawm rooj or kuv yuav mus siv chav dej.
Would you all agree on me? Comments please post I would love to discuss more. Thank you.
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O0 , very interesting, for a while (long while), I thought I was the only person who subconsciously then consciously and then systematically, analytically, and reasonably concluded this "hypothesis" as well. Your logic closely aligns with mine, and is also the sole basis of my "argument/hypothesis" as well; that is "The White Hmong - language and culture - if not the original, is probably the most closest to our ancient ancestors because they are the ones who first migrated out of China, keeping its authenticity and was/is therefore the least persecuted, oppressed, and sinicized by the Chinese." This unfortunately cannot be said of the Hmong-Chinese (Miao); all of those who still live in parts of China: Western, Central, and Eastern. And if you start comparing those Hmong-Chinese (Miao), as you have mentioned/noted, the most Eastern Hmong-Chinese (Miao) are the most sinicized and the further West you move, they are the least sinicized; evident in the Hmong-Chinese (Miao) of Yunnan or "Paj Tas Lag", because they speak practically about 90% Hmong intelligibly, exactly if not identical to SE Asian and Western Hmong. And for the most part, it is almost the White Hmong dialect, though there are noticeably emphasized Green Hmong dialect mixed within.
Recently, I finished reading a book by N. Tapp titled: The Hmong of China. Tapp makes a "point/statement" that the White Hmong - culturally and linguistically; those whom he originally encountered, field-researched, and had the opportunity to work with of SE Asia (Thailand and Laos) have all but immigrated to the West. And as far as Tapp is concerned or am aware, the White Hmong are "extinct - that was his exact word" in SE Asia and especially in China - namely the "spoken language" he is accustomed to hearing and have heard/known throughout his research. (I was almost "floored" when I came upon and read this brief insight/statement and forethought by one of the premier Hmong researcher of our time. Though this is not the "smoking gun" to solidify the White Hmong; its language and culture as the authentic and original main stay of our ancient ancestors. It does raise "questions" that needs to be answered and/or researched.)
And you may or may not know this already, but the Green Hmong - several proponents - have already claimed that the Green Hmong; their language and culture/customs is in fact the original, authentic, and most representative of our ancient ancestors. Their argument for the most part is the "exact opposite" of your (our) argument. That is, the Green Hmong stayed behind, and not having to move/travel cross-country to make a living were able to keep, maintain, and hold on to their heritage - language and culture/customs. And because the Chinese left them alone for the most part, they were minimally influenced. At least, that is the logic or argument. Ironically, some White Hmong (elders) I have spoken with and raised/asked this "issue" with seem to agree with the Green Hmong for the most part. Some of them, the elders, claim/argue that this is the main reason why the White Hmong are the least populous compared to the Green Hmong. (I disagree. My logic/reason is simply that because, we - the White Hmong, were the most resistant to being sinicized and more rebellious; tried to escape (run away) and thus were the most persecuted, oppressed, and executed thus our dwindling meager number. The Chinese, in fact, separated/categorized the Hmong/Miao into two distinct groups - the cooked (obedient/submissive) and the raw (resistant/rebellious). It is a no-brainer who were the "raw" Hmong/Miao. On this note, the book: Haiv Hmoob Liv Xwm, written by a Hmong/Miao researcher/professor points to a war/battle where the Chinese annihilated over 50% of the Hmong/Miao population. (I cried reading this, and have watery eyes now just rewriting it.) But those that did manage to escape, rebuilt or tried to rebuild their lives throughout SE Asia - meaning all of us lively freely (ignorantly) today.
Lastly, you said your studies (sources/resources) showed the Hmong/Miao originated in Mongolia then immigrated to China. Care to cite those resources and/or scholarly researchers, documents, and publication? (I am always open/looking to expand my Hmong/Miao history data-bank and knowledge-base. Yeah, I have heard some folklore/tales alluding to Mongolia, but they are unfounded in my "humble/honest" opinion. I believe in the Siberia origination folklore/tale more because at least there are more scholarly works supporting that "hypothesis". Plus, you may or may not know this, but in the Hmong origination folklore/tale, it talks about 6-months of darkness in a blistering winter. Does Mongolia have such a climate - "winter solstice'. Nope. But Siberia definitely does. And interestingly, I saw a documentary a while back, and the aboriginals of Siberia bare a very close resemblance to the Hmong/Miao - mainly their lifestyle and culture, not language unfortunately.)
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I've ran into a lot of Mongolian nationals; we're nothing like them. Well, a few have told me their religion is "shaman." All the Chinese nationals I've spoken with consider Hmongs to be "Chinese." China comprises of many Chinese subgroups that is united as one. Some words in Mandarin are the same as Hmong words...or perhaps like you've mentioned, we've picked up. I saw a Hmong lady in Guangzhou. She was selling fake silver on the street. I can distinguish her Hmong face and clothes from afar. Through my translator, I asked if I could take a picture. She declined (should've just snapped without asking right?). I was hoping she spoke Hmong but she only spoke Mandarin.
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According to what i have experience and heard, most of the Hmong people all in Vietnam and in Chinese spoken Green Hmong. Especially when it regarding my clan, we did travel last year to Laos, Thailand, Vietnam and Chinese and about 90% is green. Some will speak white but it because other reason and that change their dialect lawm xwb.
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I researched a bit about Yves Bertrais (called/known as Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov) - one of the co-founders/author of Hmong RPA - and surprisingly found this interview he did years ago - all in Hmong. Recall, he is one of the first French missionary to live with/among the Indochina Hmong starting in 1948. And since has contributed enormously to Hmong's present day prosperity - academic, economic, social, culture, politics etc. Starting in 1948, Bertrais learned and mastered spoken Hmong and intimately studied Hmong life, customs, and history to help preserve practically everything we take for granted today. Now, consistent with or directly related to our discussion about the White Hmong dialect, you will note and easily hear that Bertrais speaks near perfect White Hmong. Not a trace of the Green Hmong dialect can be heard nor is spoken throughout his entire interview. This is supportive evidence to the "hypothesis" that indeed, the White Hmong dialect, if not the original language of our ancestors, is in fact a "dialect" uniquely its own as we know and speak it today; not a deviation or hybrid of the Green Hmong dialect as some may claim, believe, or mislead the community at large. This is an important find and very interesting indeed.
(Here's the link if you want to listen to the audio.)
http://hmonglessons.com/the-hmong/hmong-language/rpa-hmong-writing-system/father-yves-bertrais/ (http://hmonglessons.com/the-hmong/hmong-language/rpa-hmong-writing-system/father-yves-bertrais/)
(Sidenote: I could not help but be amused at Lemoine's criticisms of G. Yia Lee's naivety, who some US-Hmong (kids) have lauded as a sound Hmong researcher/historian.)
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By any chance both of you two (CheejSiav & chidorix0x) are Hmong White ?
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By any chance both of you two (CheejSiav & chidorix0x) are Hmong White ?
It was only a matter of time before the Green beret showed up - :) +1, for now ...
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By any chance both of you two (CheejSiav & chidorix0x) are Hmong White ?
Nyob zoo Joot kuv yog hmoob dawb zoo siab tau hnov nej sawv daws cov lus txhawb thiab tej ntaub ntawv kuv ntseeg tau tias peb haiv hmoob tau xwm fab puaj meem rau txhua txhia lub xeev thiab teb chaws lawm. Kuv zoo siab rau peb cov Xeev Txwj uas tseem tau pab peb haiv hmoob los tuav kom tau peb cov lus thiab kev coj noj coj ua.
What about you Joot are you Green or White?
Another study that I've done was with the words that Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov have gathered before the war and here's what I've came upon which Mandarin nor any other Chinese as I know knows it anymore for example:
Ua chib puaj liam: to do poorly, do sloppily
Xwm fab puaj meem: In every direction or the new word that we use is "plaub ceg kaum ntuj" meaning everywhere
xeeb ceem/ Moj Yam: personality, attitude
and Faj tim txaim pem cees txaws lis thiaj txaws thoos thees: an idiom meaning "The lord is in Heaven and so the whole world must be ruled according to principle."
With this I see that we have more phrase and words to learn other than just the easy Kuv, koj, nws, hnub, hli, and etc.
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It was only a matter of time before the Green beret showed up - :) +1, for now ...
^^ Is this a legitimate question to ask or not ? If your research are all true, why are you so offended by my simple question ? Such childish behavior...how can I take your "research" seriously when questions at you offends you ? It goes to show that you are a very bias individual indeed...
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Nyob zoo Joot kuv yog hmoob dawb zoo siab tau hnov nej sawv daws cov lus txhawb thiab tej ntaub ntawv kuv ntseeg tau tias peb haiv hmoob tau xwm fab puaj meem rau txhua txhia lub xeev thiab teb chaws lawm. Kuv zoo siab rau peb cov Xeev Txwj uas tseem tau pab peb haiv hmoob los tuav kom tau peb cov lus thiab kev coj noj coj ua.
What about you Joot are you Green or White?
Another study that I've done was with the words that Txiv Plig Nyiaj Pov have gathered before the war and here's what I've came upon which Mandarin nor any other Chinese as I know knows it anymore for example:
Ua chib puaj liam: to do poorly, do sloppily
Xwm fab puaj meem: In every direction or the new word that we use is "plaub ceg kaum ntuj" meaning everywhere
xeeb ceem/ Moj Yam: personality, attitude
and Faj tim txaim pem cees txaws lis thiaj txaws thoos thees: an idiom meaning "The lord is in Heaven and so the whole world must be ruled according to principle."
With this I see that we have more phrase and words to learn other than just the easy Kuv, koj, nws, hnub, hli, and etc.
For your information, I am a Moob leeg. I respect your findings. I am here to provide constructive criticism. As such, here are some of my suggestions: in order for a research endeavor to be called legitimate, all findings and source materials must be presented and must not show any bias in the research. Seems all your "findings" are your opinions only. There is no source materials presented to prove your point. It never seems to amazed me whenever a Hmoob Dawb person does a "research" on this subject, white Hmong seems to be the "original" language. When a Moob leeg does the same "research", it is the Moob leeg language. Please show links to your sources and leave opinions as commentaries.. .
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^^ Is this a legitimate question to ask or not ? If your research are all true, why are you so offended by my simple question ? Such childish behavior...how can I take your "research" seriously when questions at you offends you ? It goes to show that you are a very bias individual indeed...
They are not "my research". The only "my research" is the fact that I am directly self-educating, citing, referencing, highlighting, and pinpointing to exact/specific scholarships that are recognized, known, respected, more than not accepted, acknowledged, and universally taught, learned, and re-evaluated/researched approvingly within and throughout the known academic community at nearly all if not every level of academia. Ua tsaug - :)
For your information, I am a Moob leeg. I respect your findings. I am here to provide constructive criticism. As such, here are some of my suggestions: in order for a research endeavor to be called legitimate, all findings and source materials must be presented and must not show any bias in the research. Seems all your "findings" are your opinions only. There is no source materials presented to prove your point. It never seems to amazed me whenever a Hmoob Dawb person does a "research" on this subject, white Hmong seems to be the "original" language. When a Moob leeg does the same "research", it is the Moob leeg language. Please show links to your sources and leave opinions as commentaries.. .
Please see the sources cited within my posts/comments - links, named scholars, book titles, published "excerpts" etc.. Ua tsaug - ;) (I'd provide more but maybe you/every1 can do a better job at that themself, O0)
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For your information, I am a Moob leeg. I respect your findings. I am here to provide constructive criticism. As such, here are some of my suggestions: in order for a research endeavor to be called legitimate, all findings and source materials must be presented and must not show any bias in the research. Seems all your "findings" are your opinions only. There is no source materials presented to prove your point. It never seems to amazed me whenever a Hmoob Dawb person does a "research" on this subject, white Hmong seems to be the "original" language. When a Moob leeg does the same "research", it is the Moob leeg language. Please show links to your sources and leave opinions as commentaries.. .
Here's a few resources that I have http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/chmong.htm (http://www.hmongnet.org/hmong-au/chmong.htm)
and my source from Author Ralph D. Sawyer: "Ancient Chinese Warfare" he goes through a historical explanation of what happened to each kingdom in China.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4h9U5FxABIoC&pg=PA432&lpg=PA432&dq=Yang+and+Han,+CKKTS+1995:8,+32-41&source=bl&ots=KkhhR9FfIm&sig=9J_rpUtZNyzykl7vsDaq75HKyys&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QB3rUO44wtusAb3ggRg&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Yang%20and%20Han%2C%20CKKTS%201995%3A8%2C%2032-41&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=4h9U5FxABIoC&pg=PA432&lpg=PA432&dq=Yang+and+Han,+CKKTS+1995:8,+32-41&source=bl&ots=KkhhR9FfIm&sig=9J_rpUtZNyzykl7vsDaq75HKyys&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QB3rUO44wtusAb3ggRg&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Yang%20and%20Han%2C%20CKKTS%201995%3A8%2C%2032-41&f=false)
Here's a small record from the source.
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CheejSiav, ( ;D)
That first link (cited source) is the worst possible resource on the internet in my honest opinion, :-X . That individual who threw that material together after being spoon-fed via a workshop sponsored, taught, and orechestrated by Miao/Hmong-Chinese professors of Guizhou is not an academically recognized researcher, historian, and/or authority on Hmong/Miao scholarship - just so you know etc. Ua tsaug - :)
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So based solely on all of the above sources, both you two are coming to the conclusion that the Moob Dlawb dialect is the original dialect before the migration into Southeast Asia ? Have you two ever spoken to any of the Moob elders (both Dlawb and Leeg) in your community about this issue besides sources off the internet ? I cannot take biased opinions as truth....
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So based solely on all of the above sources, both you two are coming to the conclusion that the Moob Dlawb dialect is the original dialect before the migration into Southeast Asia ? Have you two ever spoken to any of the Moob elders (both Dlawb and Leeg) in your community about this issue besides sources off the internet ? I cannot take biased opinions as truth....
To answer your question, yes and no. And taking into account your rationale and logic, even if I did talk to these Hmong/Mong elders (both Dlawb and Leeg), "I cannot take biased opinions as truth...." , O0
Alternatively, this leads me to believe in, resolve matters, and take a more sound approach, rooted in the scholarships of known, respected, and affluent researchers - past, present, and future as is becomes available.
More importantly, where, who, and what sources, resources, and/or Hmong/Mong elders (both Dlawb and Leeg) is your "ammo" and "fact-finding", to either support or rectify the debacle being discussed. Care to cite them? (I, very much would love to know, to broaden my knowledge-base and data-bank of Hmong/Miao history.)
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good question.. however, i've often heard that green hmong is the original hmong dialect and when society evolved through evolution and war, so did the transposed speaking of the language along with adaptation and insertion of different and/or new languages, but i could be wrong..
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good question.. however, i've often heard that green hmong is the original hmong dialect and when society evolved through evolution and war, so did the transposed speaking of the language along with adaptation and insertion of different and/or new languages, but i could be wrong..
The naivety and gullibility of the Hmong/Mong community at large is unfortunately contagious. And any posturing of Green Hmong/Mong being the original or authentic Hmong/Mong is nothing but "hearsay" and is unfounded in any Hmong/Mong folklore, tales, legends (dab neeg), and most importantly scholarship to date; thus within this thread we are providing insight and sound academia/scholarship to disprove, rectify, explain and/or question this "hearsay".
If you did not already, go back and read through all previous posts/comments and perhaps they will provide some basis upon which to better analyze/criticize/conclude this "hearsay". I have even cited some scholarships for everyone to review, to better analyze/conclude the matter at their own discretion.
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^^Dude stop sounding academic when you are totally NOT ! Who are you to say your "findings" are even true ? Just because you did some "research" off the net, you are right ? Reading your post here is like reading an elitest manifesto...on ly in your little world are your "findings" true...
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joot,
See "quote" below, specifically what is in "bold" ... ;) . Ua tsaug.
To answer your question, yes and no. And taking into account your rationale and logic, even if I did talk to these Hmong/Mong elders (both Dlawb and Leeg), "I cannot take biased opinions as truth...." , O0
Alternatively, this leads me to believe in, resolve matters, and take a more sound approach, rooted in the scholarships of known, respected, and affluent researchers - past, present, and future as is becomes available.
More importantly, where, who, and what sources, resources, and/or Hmong/Mong elders (both Dlawb and Leeg) is your "ammo" and "fact-finding", to either support or rectify the debacle being discussed. Care to cite them? (I, very much would love to know, to broaden my knowledge-base and data-bank of Hmong/Miao history.)
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Let's put it this way according to historian, researchers and scholars who are they? Ordinary people like you and I so in order for you to find out about the Origin of the Hmong you will have to look for the clues, details, and antique. You may say we're bias but look at what question you're throwing out at us you're bias yourself because instead of relating to the source that we give you, you having no source to support why Green is the Origin neglected the source that we give you.
So going back to what I was saying about Historian, researchers, and scholars they build their own hypothesis and theories before consulting with the community from there when it makes sense enough they are awarded and publish for the community to read and study. So what are we doing exactly? consulting with everyone who comes in here to read this article. And according to principality and doctrine everyone have the right to speak and think according to their own thoughts. If you don't agree on us go and make your own theory and see if it makes sense for the common people to agree with you. Because what we're doing is not to abolish Green Hmong but to unite everyone according to precepts and doctrines. For example if your doctrine is different than mine what would you do? Rebel so for the common people to understand and relate with each other we must find a common ground for each individuals. That is why the Chinese tried so hard to sustain us under their authority to abolish who we are unfortunately we couldn't maintain our identity because there were some who have their own ways of greed and that's why we were never a flourishing nation.
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CheejSiav,
How do you pronounce your name?
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CheejSiav,
How do you pronounce your name?
Hey yoursunrise4ev er,
My name is pronounced
Ch break it up C and you get the Cos in Hmong, which using the middle of your tongue to touch the roof of your mouth to pronounce it. Now add a little air to it and it'll become a Ch
ee is just eng
J is the high tone
S is pronounce with Sh
ia is equivalent to the English word Hsia for Chineses
v is a falling and rising tone
Meaning? There's none but if you break it up
Cheej= Long
Siav= Lifespan
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Thank you. My hmong writing and understanding is not that great! Interesting nickname.
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Thank you. My hmong writing and understanding is not that great! Interesting nickname.
We actually have Hmong Teaching class for free every Tuesday I believe
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We actually have Hmong Teaching class for free every Tuesday I believe
Where? In what forum? Please tell me. I would like to enhance my hmong writing.
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Hey yoursunrise4ev er,
My name is pronounced
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Meaning? There's none but if you break it up
Cheej= Long
Siav= Lifespan
??? ... perhaps you meant to "ceevsia" or "cheejsia"
... because ceev=save/spare=long and sia=life/lifespan whereas siav=cooked/ripe and cheej="no meaning by itself" or only implies long, as far as I know.
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When I'm very successful in my business venture, my top priority is to find out who Hmong really is...
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I do not have any facts, as a matter of fact I don't believe anyone does on the this matter. But, I have heard a story.
The story goes that both dialect has always coexisted. The White dialect is the one used by royalty, a formal language like how many other languages have. The Green dialect is that of the common man. The intermingling of the Hmong general population with the Chinese general population is the reason why the Green dialect sound similar to Mandarin Chinese.
And then there is another story that the Hmong language originated with the Green dialect. This is so because a lot of Hmong culture is in the Green dialect. When one "piav qeej" it in Green. And, a lot of our fantastical characters have Green names; like Yawm Saub, instead of Yawg Saub.
These are stories, and as any story goes there may be some truths to it, or it can be totally fictitious. It is up to you to decide.
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I do not have any facts, as a matter of fact I don't believe anyone does on the this matter. But, I have heard a story.
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And then there is another story that the Hmong language originated with the Green dialect. This is so because a lot of Hmong culture is in the Green dialect. When one "piav qeej" it in Green. And, a lot of our fantastical characters have Green names; like Yawm Saub, instead of Yawg Saub.
These are stories, and as any story goes there may be some truths to it, or it can be totally fictitious. It is up to you to decide.
The facts can be found/researched and meticulously analyzed, conceptualized, and concluded in and by all of the scholarships of Hmong/Miao research documented, taught, and acknowledged today on a global scale by all past, present, and future researchers - Hmong and non-Hmong.
Can you cite your "facts and research" info regarding your theories/supposition? - ;)
Even if they are Hmong/Mong individual(s) or folklore/tale(s) ("dab neeg"), just tell who and what folklore/tale(s) and I'd be more than happy to follow-up or check into them. (I am always looking to broaden my knowledge-base and data-bank on Hmong/Miao history etc. Ua tsaug.)
Also, not that I completely "disagree" with you, but I "disagree" with you regarding: 1) one "piav qeej" it in Green and 2) a lot of our fantastical characters have Green names; like Yawm Saub, instead of Yawg Saub.
I tried to learn "qeej" several years ago, and my "qeej" master "piav" (sang) all of the "qeej" songs in White - :) Bottom line, this is all dependent on the "qeej" master or singer, it can be in either White or Green - not exclusive to one dialect. This also applies to any other Hmong art/custom, be it funeral or wedding including songs like "kwv txhiaj/lug txaj" or "paj huam" or "paj lug" etc.. Likewise, this also applies to "fantasical characters'" names too. It just depends on who - Green or White - is telling the folklore or tale. For example, the "fantastical characters" of "Nkauj Iab", "Nraug Oo", "Nuj Txeeg", "Nraug Zaj", "Nkauj Ntxawm", and "Yawg Saub" are all in the White dialect - ;) Unfortunately, I do not know nor have heard their Green dialect equivalent. ("Yawm Saub" is White by the way, ;))
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Clorox, you've got no idea what your keyboard smashing about again.
After all, you couldn't spell "voo doo" correctly over at Hmoob.com. Who are you to give blubbering summations about our culture when you can't even spell.
Hey, would you like the link to the Voo Doo Museum again?
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The facts can be found/researched and meticulously analyzed, conceptualized, and concluded in and by all of the scholarships of Hmong/Miao research documented, taught, and acknowledged today on a global scale by all past, present, and future researchers - Hmong and non-Hmong.
Can you cite your "facts and research" info regarding your theories/supposition? - ;)
Even if they are Hmong/Mong individual(s) or folklore/tale(s) ("dab neeg"), just tell who and what folklore/tale(s) and I'd be more than happy to follow-up or check into them. (I am always looking to broaden my knowledge-base and data-bank on Hmong/Miao history etc. Ua tsaug.)
Also, not that I completely "disagree" with you, but I "disagree" with you regarding: 1) one "piav qeej" it in Green and 2) a lot of our fantastical characters have Green names; like Yawm Saub, instead of Yawg Saub.
I tried to learn "qeej" several years ago, and my "qeej" master "piav" (sang) all of the "qeej" songs in White - :) Bottom line, this is all dependent on the "qeej" master or singer, it can be in either White or Green - not exclusive to one dialect. This also applies to any other Hmong art/custom, be it funeral or wedding including songs like "kwv txhiaj/lug txaj" or "paj huam" or "paj lug" etc.. Likewise, this also applies to "fantasical characters'" names too. It just depends on who - Green or White - is telling the folklore or tale. For example, the "fantastical characters" of "Nkauj Iab", "Nraug Oo", "Nuj Txeeg", "Nraug Zaj", "Nkauj Ntxawm", and "Yawg Saub" are all in the White dialect - ;) Unfortunately, I do not know nor have heard their Green dialect equivalent. ("Yawm Saub" is White by the way, ;))
chidorixpx,
I agree on the fact and detail that is being stated here. I've also done some reading in Kwv txhiaj and the majority of the word that are being used as well as the meaning of the word if we know are all White Hmong dialect. Go into the Green Hmong dialect and there's no defenition to the word nor I don't think there's that many Kwv txhiaj in Green Hmong too because how did the Hmong convey their message after the Chinese took over? Through Kwv txhiaj right?
http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf (http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf)
Now how the Miao/ Hmong convey their message to each other was through Kwv txhiaj where as only the Hmong people would understand it who here have been to China and have heard a full blood Mandarin hais Kwv Txhiaj?? None, so Kwv Txhiaj and the Paj Ntaub was establish for security and linking with each other. As well as telling stories that were past on through our generation such as "Dej Nyab Ntiaj Teb, Ntuj Tsim Teb Raug, Nkauj Iab Nraug Nab, Tus Pej Thuam", and etc.
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Where? In what forum? Please tell me. I would like to enhance my hmong writing.
it's actually in Saint Paul, Where are you from?
Maybe I could also establish a Hmong teaching forum here too. We'll discuss further.
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??? ... perhaps you meant to "ceevsia" or "cheejsia"
... because ceev=save/spare=long and sia=life/lifespan whereas siav=cooked/ripe and cheej="no meaning by itself" or only implies long, as far as I know.
Chidorixox,
It's a tone change after a high tone, it's natural in us that's why we usually don't notice it. But I have a useful Hmong dictionary that I can give you through email for that information. What's your email address?
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CheejSiav,
Foremost, I personally do not have anything against G. Yia Lee, but every/any time you or anyone cites his stuff, I always "cringe" - :-X In time, if/should you continue to further study/research Hmong/Miao scholarship, you will understand where I am coming from.
And thanks for the offer (electronic dictionary) but I will have to pass - for now. I think I can manage, for the most part, without it.
I also wish I can/could learn "kwv txhiaj" - the old songs, of Laos' era, that is. I am told that genuine Hmong - words/terms, vocabulary, and in-depth or ancient words - are all found or are within these songs. Sadly, not too many elders who know "kwv txhiaj" are alive anymore. And those that are, very very few, teaches anymore. (I know of none as a matter of fact. And whatever is out there today are modernized versions etc. only - lacking the knowledge and insight I seek or want.) I ran into a "kwv txhiaj" expert once, so they or he claims. He said he would be glad to teach me. But I lost his contact info., :( . I am going to see if I can find him again and get going on this, O0 . Hopefully he hasn't changed his mind about teaching me. Even if I do not learn "kwv txhiaj", I am going to record all of his songs for further analysis, evaluation, and historical interpretation and documentation.
Aside from "kwv txhiaj", apparently further knowledge, Hmong language that is, can be found in funeral and wedding songs - "cov zaj ib siab ob qig thiab tshoob kos". I am learning some of the funeral songs at the moment, but will have to find a teacher/master for the wedding songs. (Yeah, I know you can get/find some on U-tube, and I have listened to a few of those already. Interesting stuff.)
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I think Moob Leeg is a Chinese variation. There are some Chinese words that sounds like Moob Leeg, ie: Xaab, is actually "peb," (three) in our modern spoken language, but some older generatin/elders still say "xaab" when they mean "peb." Listen to Chinese counting, they actually say "Ib, Ob, Xaab," etc...." Interesting...
Another word, it is referred to either as a cold or flu, in the Moob Leeg, is pronounces the same way as in Chinese, too. The word is: Saab foob. Not sure if Moob Dlawb has this word. If they do, they would pronounce it as: Sab Foob, and the first word isn't enunce like the Chinese'...but I think a lot of our culture and religion are from China. We Hmong, wherever we live, we adopt their religion, cultures, ways of life. In other words, we evolve very rapid, we blend in with whatever country we live in. Take for example, how much we have changed, just from 1975 until now, look at us. We have changed to so much!
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It's a pointless debate in which we will never know the truth.
To put it lightly, all research on Hmong history is complicated by the fact that we have oral history that doesn't recollect the last century. Unlike some ancient civilizations that left clues like pottery, statues or writings, etc... Hmong have no artifacts that offer clues about our distant past. In fact, if you watch videos where people go to Laos or Thai and interview very old Hmong people (even those past 100 years) about our origins, NONE of them can recall or have answers. This proves just how far removed we are from our past.
The best researchers can do is compare and contrast Hmong to other cultures (i.e. Chinese, Thai, Lao, Mongolians, etc) and string together theories. Yet, few theories regarding Hmong have been resolved. For example, no one really knows where Hmong really came from. We have people who say China, Mongolia, and even the Middle East.
Have any of you considered another alternative? What if our original language was neither green or white. Perhaps it was something completely different. And then over time, as Hmong spread out, it became 2 separate dialects. This seems like a more plausible theory since most dialects evolve from being seperated from the original source.
Look no further than English. At one time Americans spoke the same "English" as the British. But time away from the motherland and developing their own socio-culture changed their language. Presently, we notice differences between southerners and northerners in terms of accents, and meaning. If you go down south, no one knows what a bubbler is. To them it's a drinking fountain. This is just an example of language developing in different areas.
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Great Sage,
You do make some valid points: Hmong people do not know their true origin (homeland), the original language may likely be neither White or Green, and language evolves over time and due to environmental factors or influences.
As a whole, those points are indisputable. But on a purely scholastic and/or scientific level, I believe we, Hmong, need to start looking for answers. These three among others need answers or at least sound scholarly explanation. (I won't go into as to why?)
Seriously, how can one claim to be a people, and not know or try to find the simplest answers to their existence and being? Namely, what is our origin (ancient homeland)? What is our native tongue, culture, and custom etc.? And how have we evolved and have been evolving? If you look at all the developed (educated and intellectual) countries and nationalities throughout the world, throughout history as a matter of fact, they know with some great certainty the answers to these three simple question. That for the most part, is my biggest proponent and argument about having these types of discussion or debate - questions to be answered. (Beyond that, yes, people will have their bias and personal opinions - founded or unfounded in scholarships and scientific research. That is fine too.)
And I am not trying to accuse the Green Hmong, but, the initial conjecture that the Green dialect, culture, custom, and people were in fact the original Hmong of our ancestors were in fact made by them or their elders. There is even a U-tube video specific to this posture. Look for it if you are curios, if it is still available, that is.
Lastly, in nature, what generally happens to the original species as it evolves or migrates. Simply put, it becomes "extinct". And we all know that as a whole, there are 10-times plus more Green Hmong than White Hmong globally, even in the West (US, Canada, etc.). I have already said this, but N. Tapp concluded in one of his research publication, that the White Hmong are "extinct" in SE Asia and China. The few remnants have all but immigrated to the West.
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Is it a fact that White Hmong are less than Green Hmong? I thought it's the other way around. By just going around, I meet White Hmong 5:1 in ratio to Green Hmong.
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It's a pointless debate in which we will never know the truth.
To put it lightly, all research on Hmong history is complicated by the fact that we have oral history that doesn't recollect the last century. Unlike some ancient civilizations that left clues like pottery, statues or writings, etc... Hmong have no artifacts that offer clues about our distant past. In fact, if you watch videos where people go to Laos or Thai and interview very old Hmong people (even those past 100 years) about our origins, NONE of them can recall or have answers. This proves just how far removed we are from our past.
The best researchers can do is compare and contrast Hmong to other cultures (i.e. Chinese, Thai, Lao, Mongolians, etc) and string together theories. Yet, few theories regarding Hmong have been resolved. For example, no one really knows where Hmong really came from. We have people who say China, Mongolia, and even the Middle East.
Have any of you considered another alternative? What if our original language was neither green or white. Perhaps it was something completely different. And then over time, as Hmong spread out, it became 2 separate dialects. This seems like a more plausible theory since most dialects evolve from being seperated from the original source.
Look no further than English. At one time Americans spoke the same "English" as the British. But time away from the motherland and developing their own socio-culture changed their language. Presently, we notice differences between southerners and northerners in terms of accents, and meaning. If you go down south, no one knows what a bubbler is. To them it's a drinking fountain. This is just an example of language developing in different areas.
Great Sage,
I agree with your insight that's why if we go further into the Hmong language we get a lot of old chinese but the question is what is further than that? I did some study in Chinese history and found out that China used to have conflict with the Romans who have tried once to overtake China but they eventually fail but what happen?
Well usually when you go to war you usually settle in a place and make bunkers or a intelligent quarter there well when that happen Soldiers back then usually have relationship with their opposing country peasants or common people. And when that happen you get a whole different gene. For example, have you ever wonder why studies on Chinese people having different phylogeny on Northern China and Southern China populace is different? If all of us did and are related somehow why would our Gene be different from the Han and other ethnic populace?
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Great Sage,
You do make some valid points: Hmong people do not know their true origin (homeland), the original language may likely be neither White or Green, and language evolves over time and due to environmental factors or influences.
As a whole, those points are indisputable. But on a purely scholastic and/or scientific level, I believe we, Hmong, need to start looking for answers. These three among others need answers or at least sound scholarly explanation. (I won't go into as to why?)
Seriously, how can one claim to be a people, and not know or try to find the simplest answers to their existence and being? Namely, what is our origin (ancient homeland)? What is our native tongue, culture, and custom etc.? And how have we evolved and have been evolving? If you look at all the developed (educated and intellectual) countries and nationalities throughout the world, throughout history as a matter of fact, they know with some great certainty the answers to these three simple question. That for the most part, is my biggest proponent and argument about having these types of discussion or debate - questions to be answered. (Beyond that, yes, people will have their bias and personal opinions - founded or unfounded in scholarships and scientific research. That is fine too.)
I agree with you. We do have a responsibility to find our history. But we must do so with caution and speculation. There are just too many people with too many theories that don’t agree. Therefore, we must accept that a definitive answer to our history may not be possible at the moment.
My feeling is that we require a body of Hmong scientists/scholars with adequate funding to do extensive research as a starting point. At the moment, I don’t believe there are enough qualified individuals for this task. But I do see it happening in the next 10-20 years.
And I am not trying to accuse the Green Hmong, but, the initial conjecture that the Green dialect, culture, custom, and people were in fact the original Hmong of our ancestors were in fact made by them or their elders. There is even a U-tube video specific to this posture. Look for it if you are curios, if it is still available, that is.
Lastly, in nature, what generally happens to the original species as it evolves or migrates. Simply put, it becomes "extinct". And we all know that as a whole, there are 10-times plus more Green Hmong than White Hmong globally, even in the West (US, Canada, etc.). I have already said this, but N. Tapp concluded in one of his research publication, that the White Hmong are "extinct" in SE Asia and China. The few remnants have all but immigrated to the West.
Honestly, I’ve heard both white and green Hmong make similar statements that do nothing but cause division and rivalry. If you are truly interested in scholarly debate and work, you must hold yourself above such foolishness. It is innate human nature to believe one’s group is better so that others may flock to it. This kind of behavior is present in all animals.
My last point is that I’ve always believed there were more white Hmongs than green; at least in America. I tend to see white Hmongs and never green. This is just my experience.
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I think Moob Leeg is a Chinese variation. There are some Chinese words that sounds like Moob Leeg, ie: Xaab, is actually "peb," (three) in our modern spoken language, but some older generatin/elders still say "xaab" when they mean "peb." Listen to Chinese counting, they actually say "Ib, Ob, Xaab," etc...." Interesting...
Another word, it is referred to either as a cold or flu, in the Moob Leeg, is pronounces the same way as in Chinese, too. The word is: Saab foob. Not sure if Moob Dlawb has this word. If they do, they would pronounce it as: Sab Foob, and the first word isn't enunce like the Chinese'...but I think a lot of our culture and religion are from China. We Hmong, wherever we live, we adopt their religion, cultures, ways of life. In other words, we evolve very rapid, we blend in with whatever country we live in. Take for example, how much we have changed, just from 1975 until now, look at us. We have changed to so much!
I believe so to Elitezero1
breaking up the Hmong leeg language and like you mentioned about Chinese counting system yi, er, san, si, . .etc. Hmong Leeg having similar words to the Han speaking dialect. Like Xib fwb in Green Hmong the "H" consonant is always pronounce with an "F" consonant the Chinese said xib fwb the same way like the Green Hmong Shi fu. White Hmong have affricated and nasalized consonants that the Chinese can't use therefore it's a lot harder to pronounce and learn. For example Nqhoob. You don't pronounce the "N" you nasalize it through your nose to pronounce the "n".
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Me personally, I give up the idea. Without solid background/history books about us specifically, there is no way we will ever find out about past accurately. Everything is just a hearsay. It's all about "he says, she says, they say, this or that person says this and that." Where are the books that back up anyone's claims? None. We Hmong live by "words of mouth," not by written formulas, for centuries, thousands of years, ever since who knows. Not a single written record whatsoever.
That's why I give up. It's pointless. We should start from 1975 and forward. That way at least the future Hmong will know up to that year.
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Is it a fact that White Hmong are less than Green Hmong? I thought it's the other way around. By just going around, I meet White Hmong 5:1 in ratio to Green Hmong.
You need to get out more often, besides your home and backyard then, ;D
In the US, on the surface, it appears there are more White versus Green, because recall, all (most) of the White Hmong have immigrated here. And in general, White communities are more established than Green communities thus your experience. Also, do not forget, Green can easily speak the White dialect - the bulk of them do, so do not assume they are White simply because they speak White.
As a whole and on a global scale there is way way way more Green than White. That is fact. Do the research if you want irrefutable fact/truth.
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I agree with you. We do have a responsibility to find our history. But we must do so with caution and speculation. There are just too many people with too many theories that don’t agree. Therefore, we must accept that a definitive answer to our history may not be possible at the moment.
My feeling is that we require a body of Hmong scientists/scholars with adequate funding to do extensive research as a starting point. At the moment, I don’t believe there are enough qualified individuals for this task. But I do see it happening in the next 10-20 years.
Honestly, I’ve heard both white and green Hmong make similar statements that do nothing but cause division and rivalry. If you are truly interested in scholarly debate and work, you must hold yourself above such foolishness. It is innate human nature to believe one’s group is better so that others may flock to it. This kind of behavior is present in all animals.
My last point is that I’ve always believed there were more white Hmongs than green; at least in America. I tend to see white Hmongs and never green. This is just my experience.
First point, although there are Hmong scholars nowadays, they are just barely putting together all of the pieces of the puzzle. As a matter of fact, from my research and review of their works, they are just as confused, uncertain, and lost as we, average joes, are etc. The fact is, there is no substantial funding period to further their research or take it to the next level. Lastly, any research being done today, mainly by Hmong scholars, are all rooted and found in previous research and researchers exclusively; thus only regurjutating their perspectives, ideas, assumptions, and/or bias. I have yet to see any original Hmong research or challenges to the norm. (Hmong are wussies for the most part in my opinion.)
Secondly, true, White and Green have made antagonistic bias claims. However, I have never heard a White made a claim or posture that the White dialect, culture, and custom etc. is the authentic original Hmong. Only the Green. Plus, I have never heard my grandparents, parents, or White elders say anything along this line either. When I heard the Green making this conjecture, I asked the White elders etc., and they more or less agreed with the Green's postulation - citing that that is why there are more Green globally and from our homeland - China. (I did not buy it of course, because when pressed for explanations, facts, and folklore to verify this conjecture, the White elders, had nothing. They simply said, "I don't know.")
Lastly, all the White, especially from SE Asia, have all but immigrated to the West (USA); thus there are more White here. (See N. Tapp's theory/conclusion on the matter.) Outside of the West, the Green is the more more populous; present day SE Asia and China, and globally.
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Me personally, I give up the idea. Without solid background/history books about us specifically, there is no way we will ever find out about past accurately. Everything is just a hearsay. It's all about "he says, she says, they say, this or that person says this and that." Where are the books that back up anyone's claims? None. We Hmong live by "words of mouth," not by written formulas, for centuries, thousands of years, ever since who knows. Not a single written record whatsoever.
That's why I give up. It's pointless. We should start from 1975 and forward. That way at least the future Hmong will know up to that year.
I share similar sentiments to yours as well. We probably won't ever know with a high degree of certainty what our original language was. Or perhaps maybe we are still holding to remnants of it? And maybe this is it (with modifications and added vocabs of course)? Who really knows.
However, we shouldn't use the 1975 mark (when we lost the war and immigrated?) as a definitive starting point for future Hmong to look back to and reference that as being the Hmong language/culture. I'm guessing you're just jesting here? Anyways we as a whole have ancestors whom still recall the migration from Southern China to Nyablajteb and LosTsuas so if there's a "starting point" it should be from this time frame. That way we won't have the christian influence perverting our Hmong culture and language, thus future Hmong will still realize that it's a foreign religion and shouldn't be part of our ways.
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First point, although there are Hmong scholars nowadays, they are just barely putting together all of the pieces of the puzzle. As a matter of fact, from my research and review of their works, they are just as confused, uncertain, and lost as we, average joes, are etc. The fact is, there is no substantial funding period to further their research or take it to the next level. Lastly, any research being done today, mainly by Hmong scholars, are all rooted and found in previous research and researchers exclusively; thus only regurjutating their perspectives, ideas, assumptions, and/or bias. I have yet to see any original Hmong research or challenges to the norm. (Hmong are wussies for the most part in my opinion.)
That's why I said it would take 10-20 years before any serious work can be completed. Right now you have a bunch of independent hobbyists doing research and coming up with their own theories. To really have clout, we need a scientific team that can get funding and come to some conclusions; or at least a starting point from which to build a proper thesis.
Secondly, true, White and Green have made antagonistic bias claims. However, I have never heard a White made a claim or posture that the White dialect, culture, and custom etc. is the authentic original Hmong. Only the Green. Plus, I have never heard my grandparents, parents, or White elders say anything along this line either. When I heard the Green making this conjecture, I asked the White elders etc., and they more or less agreed with the Green's postulation - citing that that is why there are more Green globally and from our homeland - China. (I did not buy it of course, because when pressed for explanations, facts, and folklore to verify this conjecture, the White elders, had nothing. They simply said, "I don't know.")
Well, like I said... If you're still in this mix of "he said, she said" BS then you're not really being objective. I get the feeling you resent the position green Hmong have taken, because it seems to put them ahead of white Hmong. I could care less because it doesn't matter who came first. I'm green Hmong, but if I found out white Hmong were the first Hmong; no big deal. We're all Hmong after all. Our research should be to unite our people not cause more division.
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That's why I said it would take 10-20 years before any serious work can be completed. Right now you have a bunch of independent hobbyists doing research and coming up with their own theories. To really have clout, we need a scientific team that can get funding and come to some conclusions; or at least a starting point from which to build a proper thesis.
Well, like I said... If you're still in this mix of "he said, she said" BS then you're not really being objective. I get the feeling you resent the position green Hmong have taken, because it seems to put them ahead of white Hmong. I could care less because it doesn't matter who came first. I'm green Hmong, but if I found out white Hmong were the first Hmong; no big deal. We're all Hmong after all. Our research should be to unite our people not cause more division.
Why 10-20 years from now? Why not now? I am practically against future scholarships though 10 years is not too far off. But 20 years and beyond, there will be even fewer creditable sources and resources to draw from to create and document more authentic hypothesis and research, specifically the experienced and knowledgeable elders. Just look at what the past decades etc. has already done or left us with. Absolutely nothing except perplexed deviation if not uncertainty.
Trust me, I could careless for the "he said, she said" BS. And my only resentment of the Green Hmong's rhetoric and posturing is the division and secularism it has caused throughout the Hmong community, at almost every level. (I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself. The one thing that infuriated me the most was the Congressional hearing decades ago where Green Hmong proponents FAWKED it all up for the Hmong/Mong community as a whole. What imbeciles! I only say Green Hmong because they were the disgruntle party fighting Congress against the White Hmong in this hearing - not another race, non-Hmong party, non-Hmong organization, non-Hmong political group, or anti-Hmong dissidents. Just Green Hmong. Pathetic indeed.) This incident alone, drives me to believe (hypothesize), that in general Green Hmong innately do not have the conscience to do, act, and abide by what is good for all Hmong/Mong, but only what is or can be Green Mong. Yeah, that is my bias (opinion), but the facts (history) speaks for themselves. I only mentioned one of nearly a dozen examples.
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Why 10-20 years from now? Why not now? I am practically against future scholarships though 10 years is not too far off. But 20 years and beyond, there will be even fewer creditable sources and resources to draw from to create and document more authentic hypothesis and research, specifically the experienced and knowledgeable elders. Just look at what the past decades etc. has already done or left us with. Absolutely nothing except perplexed deviation if not uncertainty.
The reason is self-evident by your own findings: we are not qualified nor do we have the resources at present.
Perhaps in 10-20 years there will be more qualified Hmong people who are more concerned with the objective truth about our origins rather than manipulating information to serve their own agenda.
Trust me, I could careless for the "he said, she said" BS. And my only resentment of the Green Hmong's rhetoric and posturing is the division and secularism it has caused throughout the Hmong community, at almost every level. (I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself. The one thing that infuriated me the most was the Congressional hearing decades ago where Green Hmong proponents FAWKED it all up for the Hmong/Mong community as a whole. What imbeciles! I only say Green Hmong because they were the disgruntle party fighting Congress against the White Hmong in this hearing - not another race, non-Hmong party, non-Hmong organization, non-Hmong political group, or anti-Hmong dissidents. Just Green Hmong. Pathetic indeed.) This incident alone, drives me to believe (hypothesize), that in general Green Hmong innately do not have the conscience to do, act, and abide by what is good for all Hmong/Mong, but only what is or can be Green Mong. Yeah, that is my bias (opinion), but the facts (history) speaks for themselves. I only mentioned one of nearly a dozen examples.
Actually, your previous posts and this one proves otherwise. You seem to harbor alot of resentment towards the green Hmong and it is the underlying issue with your argument. In fact, it's as though you feel white Hmong, throughout history, were somehow "better" but are now overshadowed by their green counterparts. And now the white Hmong should be validated somehow through learning of our history.
Personally, I find this attitude to be non-objective and disturbing. Twice I've stated that I was interested in an unbiased approach toward unity and both times you countered with a disdain for green Hmong. Your intentions are too transparent.
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The reason is self-evident by your own findings: we are not qualified nor do we have the resources at present.
Perhaps in 10-20 years there will be more qualified Hmong people who are more concerned with the objective truth about our origins rather than manipulating information to serve their own agenda.
Actually, your previous posts and this one proves otherwise. You seem to harbor alot of resentment towards the green Hmong and it is the underlying issue with your argument. In fact, it's as though you feel white Hmong, throughout history, were somehow "better" but are now overshadowed by their green counterparts. And now the white Hmong should be validated somehow through learning of our history.
Personally, I find this attitude to be non-objective and disturbing. Twice I've stated that I was interested in an unbiased approach toward unity and both times you countered with a disdain for green Hmong. Your intentions are too transparent.
That's your opinion (bias) regarding whatever contributions I have post/commented on. As I have already said, "I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself.", regarding the Green Hmong's posturing. I was merely trying to bring some points into perspective yet must have hit a nerve or two. No biggie, and no offense taken.
As for harboring any sort of resentment, it would seem to me anyway, that it is the Green Hmong who are harboring resentments being overshadowed by the White Hmong today and historically, and nowadays given all the freedom and opportunities (academics), even if fool-hearty, are trying to validate themself - their group some how. (I can even give some foresight here, but then, you will accuse me of being Hmong White-centric again, ;D)
Sadly and perhaps, you are trying to make this into a Green VS White debate, given my comments, posts, findings, opinions (bias), and sensitivity on all matters Hmong/Mong, but I am not going to fall for those base antics. And I assure you, most if not all my opinions (bias), comments, and findings are more than not rooted and founded in academic scholarships. That is not to say, I will express my thoughts, opinions, and findings supported by academic scholarships and let whoever, Green or White, decide for themselves what they want to believe - their opinions or bias. Like you said, "I am sick and tired of the 'he said, she said BS'." which is what you are trying to contend in your comment (opinion and bias) of me. Fair enough. I only ask that whatever counterpoints you may have or want to inject has equally creditable academic scholarships, versus "he said, she said BS", which is why "joot" and the like does not want to have this discussion with us/here. (His or her opinions (bias) is mainly rooted in "he said, she said BS", which is why they can never produce any scholarships to support or back their opinions (bias) of Green Hmong supremacy when asked etc..)
And by no admission do I claim to be an expert, researcher, historian, or scholar on anything Hmong/Mong/Miao=Hmong-Chinese, but for the most part I have done my due diligence and do know a thing or two of said groups - its history, culture, custom, language, etc.. More importantly, I am always researching and looking to better my knowledge and understanding of all facts - found or unfounded, scholarly or not.
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Chidorix0x,
Please don't use Mong again in your spelling. Whether it's Hmong Dawb or Ntsuab we are all Hmong and the name should ONLY be spelled Hmong,,, not Mong (or Mhong or HMong or whatever variation). By accepting(?) and writing Mong you are giving credence to some of the Ntsuab (not all, but just a minority of them) who advocate for the name distinction. If you want unity, then don't accept this other spelling as it will invariably complicate and convolute the matter further... Now it's not the Chinese dividing Hmong anymore but Hmong are doing the job themselves.
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Chidorix0x,
Please don't use Mong again in your spelling. Whether it's Hmong Dawb or Ntsuab we are all Hmong and the name should ONLY be spelled Hmong,,, not Mong (or Mhong or HMong or whatever variation). By accepting(?) and writing Mong you are giving credence to some of the Ntsuab (not all, but just a minority of them) who advocate for the name distinction. If you want unity, then don't accept this other spelling as it will invariably complicate and convolute the matter further... Now it's not the Chinese dividing Hmong anymore but Hmong are doing the job themselves.
You do reallize you just opened a WHOLE CAN of WORMS with that opinion (bias) remark right? - ;D (I am not even gonna go there. Just saying ... :-X Hint: Congressional hearing ( ::)) ... ;))
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That's your opinion (bias) regarding whatever contributions I have post/commented on. As I have already said, "I will let you explore, figure out, and find that out for yourself.", regarding the Green Hmong's posturing. I was merely trying to bring some points into perspective yet must have hit a nerve or two. No biggie, and no offense taken.
I don’t care about the green Hmong’s posturing. What I do know is that you’re as bias as those you condemn. You preach about not accepting unbiased opinions, yet you came in here with a preconceived idea already (a bias): that white Hmong language was first. And that somehow this made them more legitimate.
"The White Hmong - language and culture - if not the original, is probably the most closest to our ancient ancestors because they are the ones who first migrated out of China, keeping its authenticity and was/is therefore the least persecuted, oppressed, and sinicized by the Chinese."
And “no” you didn’t hit a nerve; I’m not interested in your Hmong politics. I came in here to talk history and offer my opinion on the subject. Perhaps this thread hit a nerve within you, because you are showing a lot of animosity towards your own people.
Sadly and perhaps, you are trying to make this into a Green VS White debate, given my comments…
No, you did that all by yourself. Take a look:
As for harboring any sort of resentment, it would seem to me anyway, that it is the Green Hmong who are harboring resentments being overshadowed by the White Hmong today and historically, and nowadays given all the freedom and opportunities (academics), even if fool-hearty, are trying to validate themself - their group some how. (I can even give some foresight here, but then, you will accuse me of being Hmong White-centric again, ;D)
the Green Hmong - several proponents - have already claimed that the Green Hmong; their language and culture/customs is in fact the original, authentic, and most representative of our ancient ancestors. Their argument for the most part is the "exact opposite" of your (our) argument.
And any posturing of Green Hmong/Mong being the original or authentic Hmong/Mong is nothing but "hearsay" and is unfounded in any Hmong/Mong folklore, tales, legends (dab neeg), and most importantly scholarship to date; thus within this thread we are providing insight and sound academia/scholarship to disprove, rectify, explain and/or question this "hearsay".
… the initial conjecture that the Green dialect, culture, custom, and people were in fact the original Hmong of our ancestors were in fact made by them or their elders. There is even a U-tube video specific to this posture. Look for it if you are curios, if it is still available, that is.
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Great Sage, ( ;D - :D)
Gotta love those elementary school antics; ad hominem and red herrings - ::)
So instead of providing some basis of scholarships or questions/concerns, as I have done, to be analyzed (resolved if possible), now all your attention is geared towards "ad hominem and red herrings" - :idiot2: (Brilliant! Just brilliant! LMAO!)
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I think this thread is being blown out of proportion of its intention. Now, we are just tossing stones at each other without saying any meaningful stuff, so let me just chime in my observation, hopefully I'm not opening another can of worm (or do I?)
Now, just from observation, not a study of some sort at all - I know that White Hmong tend to alter the sounding of words, especially the elderly ones. For example: In Laos, a word is enunce as "un," or "aa" in Hmong, but the White Hmong change it to "a," because they can't enunce it the way it is supposed to. One such particular word is: Laotion - "As Caas" - meaning Xibfwb or "reverend/master/teacher)" along those names. The White Hmong change it to enunce: "As Cas." And the correct enunciation in Lao's language should remain "As Caas."
Now, when we get to the US, one of the words I hear the elder keep enuncing it different that what is suppose to is, "Van." A van, a vehicle. The White Hmong change it to enunce "via." Now, the younger generation doesn't have this problem, it's only the elderly ones. So, I supposed back in the past, along the time frame somewhere, the White Hmong somehow changed many words to enunce differently than their origination. So, who's to say who's original and who's not? Just from observation alone, there are so many words altered to sound different according to their tongue, so...here, a new can of worm? :2funny:
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Great Sage, ( ;D - :D)
Gotta love those elementary school antics; ad hominem and red herrings - ::)
So instead of providing some basis of scholarships or questions/concerns, as I have done, to be analyzed (resolved if possible), now all your attention is geared towards "ad hominem and red herrings" - :idiot2: (Brilliant! Just brilliant! LMAO!)
Speak for yourself... You wrote those things. ::)
Tell me something, are you really this full of yourself? I mean you consider everyone's opinion bias, yet you're the one holding a grudge. Do you understand what it means to be bias? It means you have a preconcieved position; one that shows favoritism. It quite clear where your loyalty lies; with the white Hmong. Yet, now you claim to hold an objective view of Hmong history? That's hard to believe, man.
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The Mongolian origin theory again. This theory is baseless and is a product of Western ignorance. Just because Hmong is pronounce like Mong in Mongolia in English. If two people are related, they should share a close genetic marker. Mongolian ydna markers are C-M217. The Hmong ydna marker is O3a3b. The closest ydna marker to Hmong people are Han/Tang people (suav). They are 03a5. Ydna are passed from father to children. For the best studies, you'd of course have to look at mtdna also. That's pass from the mother to children. Anyway, read up on it if you want to know more.
With that said, let's move on to the topic at hand. First and foremost, I wouldn't take any studies that are over 10 years too seriously, and I would take any information about Hmong language from someone who does not speak Hmong with a grain of salt. You don't have to have a doctorate of philosophy (PhD) in anything to know your language. The PhD folks gets their expert information from you.
So most people in here thinks that the De dialect is older than the Leng dialect. In my humble opinion, that's not the case, nor is it the other way around. They they are both the same age with a slight variation. There are many words in De and Leng that are used everyday that are the same as Mandarin ie..
English Hmong Sinitic
arm npab ban
help pab bang
friend phooj ywg phung you
car tsheb zhe (chay)
These are just some examples but all Hmong dialect share a lot of vocabulary with Sinitic languages. In fact, the Sinitic language Wu, spoken in and around Shanghai is believed to derive from Hmong. ( http://cscanada.net/index.php/ccc/article/view/j.ccc.1923670020050101.029 (http://cscanada.net/index.php/ccc/article/view/j.ccc.1923670020050101.029) )
Hmong people, although they are not nomadic according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nomadic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nomadic) ) does migrate, and when they do, as a minority language, they do pick up new words and drop old ones ie.. from laotion:
cars: tsheb to lub fai
trash: khoom sw to khib nyiab
go: mus to pais
wallet: Hnab to kab paus
rabbit: luav to kaj taij
These are just a few.
or change idiosyncratic to match that of the the host language ie..
close eyes: hmong qe muag to english kaw qhov muag
open eyes: hmong rua muag to english qheb qhov muag
myself: hmong kuv to english kuv tus kheej
The Leng and De dialect are both full of these examples. This is why I believed that neither the Leng or the De dialects are original. If you have the time, sit down with someone who speaks either Lao or any Sinitic languages and compare. In the mean time, check out this link for your viewing pleasure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPs2Nq3oG7g# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPs2Nq3oG7g#)
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Beside doing research on the language and dialect. Let's talk about the about the trend and rituals that each ethnic carries in China. Does anybody know what Cantonese, Biao-Jiao Mien, Wameng-Nasu, Sangkong, Samatao, and other dialect in China carry as rituals and beliefs?
On these theories that we've covered rather the White Hmong dialect is the primary language or the Green Hmong dialect is the primary language isn't really essential to the community but what I want to discuss on is the ritual. From what I've heard from elderly and people who have been doing a lot of studies on the ritual and origin of it at one time we only had one trend which then branches out into different trends that have manipulated one another but because Hmong didn't have any record of how these rituals should be implement.
Hmoob dab qhuas muaj li no los ntawm peb cov Hmoob Thoj:
Hmoob Thoj/ Hmoob Pos: Dab qhuas Hmoob Ncaws Hau Nyuj: During the day of the funeral the Tshuab Qeej would follow the brethren who carry the dead around lub cub tawg then when they set off to the looj mem the tshuab qeej would kick the cows head before setting off. We're the Hmong Thoj 9 Txig
now there are different type of Hmong Thao out there too like:
The Hmong Tshuab Qaib
Hmong Tshwm Tshav
and etc.
Each clan having the same principle and ordinance at the same time within each clan they also are divided like the Thao clan that I've mention for our Clan above.
So to clarify things here's an analogy:
If I were to go to a Kwv tij Hmong Thao house who is a Hmong Tshuab Qaib I can't die in his house because we're different ritual from a different origin. But if I go to a Kwvtij Hmong Thao who I've never met before in my whole life and he's a Hmoob Thoj Ncaws Hau Nyuj I can die in his house and they can do my burial for me.
So I know a long the way there were some break up between clans and brotherhood to have cause this great shift of ritual and languages. I don't know what the Green Hmong ritual system is like but I'm assuming it's the same concept.
Anybody in here who's a ritual expert, SHINE SOME LIGHT!!
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todspengo,
Regarding this comment: The Mongolian origin theory again. This theory is baseless and is a product of Western ignorance. Just because Hmong is pronounce like Mong in Mongolia in English.
Foremost, I completely agree, Hmong did not originate from Mongolia nor am closely tied/related to Mongols whatsoever. Maybe there were a few encounters and acquaintances in Chinese antiquity when Genghis Khan was trying to conquer China - the homeland of the Hmong/Miao, but beyond that, neither people had a clue about the other. There are plenty of scholarships that more than validates this.
Hmong, in fact is not pronounced "Mong" or anything near that, even in the Green dialect. (I have even heard it pronounced "Mung" - :idiot2:) Sadly, it is spelled "Mong" in English per the Green dialect derived from the Moob Leeg/Ntsuab word "Moob", lending to the pronunciation flaw and Mongolia origination faux-pas. It is just "dumb" how people or Hmong/Mong, ignorantly fabricate crap and fail to even pronounce Hmong/Mong accurately, esp. US-borned Hmong/Mong folks - :idiot2: .
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CheejSiav,
About Hmong rituals, taboos, and clan-centric ceremonies, you are asking for the impossible. It is all I am saying. The topic alone is pointless and beyond the scope of any ritual expert or individual, no matter who he/she is and what their level of expertise may be - ancient or modern.
Much like this "original language" discussion, there is absolutely no irrefutable fact or data to try to even make an educated much less sound argument one way or another. As a matter of fact, this Hmong ritual subject is even less creditable one way or another versus the "original language" discussion.
Per my experiences, observation, and community research, as there is no scholarships whatsoever regarding this subject matter, the Hmong just did whatever they wanted, remembered, knew, and felt what is best for them, their clan or family, and that just became the norm including all the variants, changes, additions, minus, and inclusion or exclusion of Western influences and adaptations. For examp: Hmong now have singing the gospels and prayers in a Hmong-Christian funeral that includes traditional Hmong-centric practices like killing cows=ntaus nyuj hauv qhua, donations=nyiaj tshav ntuj, and giving thanks=ua tsaug. WTF?
That is why Hmong has a too well-known verbage that says, "Ib rab teb. Ib yam txuj." It means, "One town, city, state, village, country, clan, master, student, practitioner, apprentice, one entirely unique method, practice, way, ritual, and/or managed custom." literally. There lies the answer to your question, directly from the horse's mouth - Hmong.
This is why I have been arguing for ages that Hmong need to start standardizing it's language, culture, and customs. Of course, this is asking for the "impossible" I know. Hmong have too many "experts", "elites", and "educated wanna-bes" nowadays to accept or rally a consensus towards this cause imho - :( .
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The Mongolian origin theory again. This theory is baseless and is a product of Western ignorance. Just because Hmong is pronounce like Mong in Mongolia in English. If two people are related, they should share a close genetic marker. Mongolian ydna markers are C-M217. The Hmong ydna marker is O3a3b. The closes ydna marker to Hmong people are Han/Tang people (suav). They are 03a3c. Ydna are passed from father to children. For the best studies, you'd of course have to look at mtdna also. That's pass from the mother to children. Anyway, read up on it if you want to know more.
With that said, let's move on to the topic at hand. First and foremost, I wouldn't take any studies that are over 10 years too seriously, and I would take any information about Hmong language from someone who does not speak Hmong with a grain of salt. You don't have to have a doctorate of philosophy (PhD) in anything to know your language. The PhD folks gets their expert information from you.
So most people in here thinks that the De dialect is older than the Leng dialect. In my humble opinion, that's not the case, nor is it the other way around. They they are both the same age with a slight variation. There are many words in De and Leng that are used everyday that are the same as Mandarin ie..
English Hmong Sinitic
arm npab ban
help pab bang
friend phooj ywg phung you
car tsheb zhe (chay)
These are just some examples but all Hmong dialect share a lot of vocabulary with Sinitic languages. In fact, the Sinitic language Wu, spoken in and around Shanghai is believed to derive from Hmong. ( http://cscanada.net/index.php/ccc/article/view/j.ccc.1923670020050101.029 (http://cscanada.net/index.php/ccc/article/view/j.ccc.1923670020050101.029) )
Hmong people, although they are not nomadic according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nomadic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nomadic) ) does migrate, and when they do, as a minority language, they do pick up new words and drop old ones ie.. from laotion:
cars: tsheb to lub fai
trash: khoom sw to khib nyiab
go: mus to pais
wallet: Hnab to kab paus
rabbit: luav to kaj taij
These are just a few.
or change idiosyncratic to match that of the the host language ie..
close eyes: hmong qe muag to english kaw qhov muag
open eyes: hmong rua muag to english qheb qhov muag
myself: hmong kuv to english kuv tus kheej
The Leng and De dialect are both full of these examples. This is why I believed that neither the Leng or the De dialects are original. If you have the time, sit down with someone who speaks either Lao or any Sinitic languages and compare. In the mean time, check out this link for your viewing pleasure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPs2Nq3oG7g# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPs2Nq3oG7g#)
Thank you topspengo for your comments,
I've done some studies in these languages before and do agree that Hmong along the way took some word from different Ethnic into their languages because 1) Hmong don't or either have the word already but because they situated in a place they were compel to learn the language in that country for business uses and communication so I don't blame the Hmong for picking up these new words and formalizing it into their system because lets face it Hmong never had a country ever since the war that was lost in China with Huang Di which is in the B.C Hmong was never prosperous then.
But I disagree on the fact that both the Green and the White Hmong dialect co-existed in China when ever there's one closest to the origin there's always one route that any language would branch from. For example America the origin of the language in America was British or English but because of the different dialect Scottish, German, and etc. were all compile together to make the modern day English so if we look at that did it English started out slang having howdy, ya'll, and etc. when America was establish? no, so because of the different individuals who thought of these slang words that's why it was establish. Similar concept in any language. Let's say if the younger generation now keeps on thinking of new slang easy word to use then 5 year or even 2 years from now everybody will be speaking slang in Hmong. Just like the word "Yawg ntawd now being used from young generation as Aib Ntawd"
So which language is consider the "Slang" language? White or Hmong?
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CheejSiav,
About Hmong rituals, taboos, and clan-centric ceremonies, you are asking for the impossible. It is all I am saying. The topic alone is pointless and beyond the scope of any ritual expert or individual, no matter who he/she is and what their level of expertise may be - ancient or modern.
Much like this "original language" discussion, there is absolutely no irrefutable fact or data to try to even make an educated much less sound argument one way or another. As a matter of fact, this Hmong ritual subject is even less creditable one way or another versus the "original language" discussion.
Per my experiences, observation, and community research, as there is no scholarships whatsoever regarding this subject matter, the Hmong just did whatever they wanted, remembered, knew, and felt what is best for them, their clan or family, and that just became the norm including all the variants, changes, additions, minus, and inclusion or exclusion of Western influences and adaptations. For examp: Hmong now have singing the gospels and prayers in a Hmong-Christian funeral that includes traditional Hmong-centric practices like killing cows=ntaus nyuj hauv qhua, donations=nyiaj tshav ntuj, and giving thanks=ua tsaug. WTF?
That is why Hmong has a too well-known verbage that says, "Ib rab teb. Ib yam txuj." It means, "One town, city, state, village, country, clan, master, student, practitioner, apprentice, one entirely unique method, practice, way, ritual, and/or managed custom." literally. There lies the answer to your question, directly from the horse's mouth - Hmong.
This is why I have been arguing for ages that Hmong need to start standardizing it's language, culture, and customs. Of course, this is asking for the "impossible" I know. Hmong have too many "experts", "elites", and "educated wanna-bes" nowadays to accept or rally a consensus towards this cause imho - :( .
Now if we're asking to standardize the Hmong language it would be an agreement on both dialect to make it work. And as a matter of fact we are White Hmong are being use more proficiently and we have more White Hmong script printed out than Green Hmong. . .but the thing that I don't get is what's with these Church that are being establish and are strictly speaking Green Hmong? Hmong Alliance Church in California for example have indicated that God himself knows only Green Hmong and White Hmong is to be prohibited! WTF?? If we keep on having individuals who rise up and lead the community two ways we as a community won't go anywhere we'll have to sit down with the leaders, elders, and Hmong overall and discuss on standardizing the Hmong language to make it official for world wide acknowledgemen t and formality. At this pace I'm seeing it impossible unless the younger generation rise up before all the elderly people dies off to still maintain our language and come with a reconciliation .
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Now if we're asking to standardize the Hmong language it would be an agreement on both dialect to make it work. And as a matter of fact we are White Hmong are being use more proficiently and we have more White Hmong script printed out than Green Hmong. . .but the thing that I don't get is what's with these Church that are being establish and are strictly speaking Green Hmong? Hmong Alliance Church in California for example have indicated that God himself knows only Green Hmong and White Hmong is to be prohibited! WTF?? If we keep on having individuals who rise up and lead the community two ways we as a community won't go anywhere we'll have to sit down with the leaders, elders, and Hmong overall and discuss on standardizing the Hmong language to make it official for world wide acknowledgemen t and formality. At this pace I'm seeing it impossible unless the younger generation rise up before all the elderly people dies off to still maintain our language and come with a reconciliation .
First, without going to known historic community specific examples, incidents, and antagonism, let me just point to a few PH individuals such as "joot" and "HUNG TU LO" - who by their own admission are Green Hmong - who adamantly will defend Green and disavow anything White. Need I say more. (And "joot" and "HUNG TU LO", before you get your undies tied in a knot, I am merely putting to your PH comments/posts/opinions on matter of Green and White, not you specifically. I apologize in advance if I am being to direct.)
Lastly, if White is scripted more historically than Green, would that not make an argument that White is the original script/language - ;D , ;).
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....let me just point to a few PH individuals such as "joot" and "HUNG TU LO" - who by their own admission are Green Hmong - who adamantly will defend Green and disavow anything White.
First of all, here's my post history: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6916 (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6916)
I just read this thread from the sidelines. I've never posted on this thread so how can I disavow anything about the topic?
Secondly, I helped someone with how to address in-laws who are Hmoob leeg because I am Hmoob dawb and had to learn it for myself. If you can copy and paste my quote where I claim to be Hmoob leeg, I will ban myself from PH for lifetime.
Not only is your grammar an epic mess and your sentence structures resemble a struggling middle school student, your memory is like that of a goldfish. You can't even remember who your debating with and on what topic.
Chidori to the face, again.
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First of all, here's my post history: http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6916 (http://www.pebhmong.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=6916)
I just read this thread from the sidelines. I've never posted on this thread so how can I disavow anything about the topic?
Secondly, I helped someone with how to address in-laws who are Hmoob leeg because I am Hmoob dawb and had to learn it for myself. If you can copy and paste my quote where I claim to be Hmoob leeg, I will ban myself from PH for lifetime.
Not only is your grammar an epic mess and your sentence structures resemble a struggling middle school student, your memory is like that of a goldfish. You can't even remember who your debating with and on what topic.
Chidori to the face, again.
;D ... ::)
your - is a grammar epic mess
Any grammar aficionado would grammatically (correctly) use "you're", not "your" - ;D, :idiot2:, O0
Ooops! I realized I made some "typo and grammatic" mistakes in my previous post/comment too - ;D . Oh wells, O0, need more proofreading. Not!
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Now if we're asking to standardize the Hmong language it would be an agreement on both dialect to make it work. And as a matter of fact we are White Hmong are being use more proficiently and we have more White Hmong script printed out than Green Hmong. . .but the thing that I don't get is what's with these Church that are being establish and are strictly speaking Green Hmong? Hmong Alliance Church in California for example have indicated that God himself knows only Green Hmong and White Hmong is to be prohibited! WTF?? If we keep on having individuals who rise up and lead the community two ways we as a community won't go anywhere we'll have to sit down with the leaders, elders, and Hmong overall and discuss on standardizing the Hmong language to make it official for world wide acknowledgemen t and formality. At this pace I'm seeing it impossible unless the younger generation rise up before all the elderly people dies off to still maintain our language and come with a reconciliation .
Why would you care if a church decides to speak Green or White Hmong? The fact is, Hmong have two dialects (or maybe it can be called 2 languages) and its up to peope which one they prefer. In any case, it's none of your business what version of Hmong someone decides to speak.
As for standardizatio n, the same principle applies. Why should someone who is born Green be forced to speak and read White Hmong? Vice versa... It's a ridiculous notion that everyone must conform to someone's idea of a "standard." Do you know what standards are used for? A standard is a measurement upon where things begin to deviate. For example, there's standard English, then there's slang, jargons and everything else that doesn't fit in. There's even dialects and spoonerisms that don't fit into standard English. The point being, language is ever-evolving and rather than add to the problem, it's a better idea to build on it.
My last point is directed at your attitude. I don't not support your views because you, like your friend Chido, have an elitist/seperatist point of view. You guys like to point the finger at the other Hmong group while maintaining that your side is correct and flawless. This is not the attitude of someone who is looking out for the greater good of all Hmong. We are Hmong and if we can't get along, it means we are all failing.
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English Hmong Sinitic
arm (thxais) npab ban
help pab bang
friend phooj ywg phung you (Mandarin = Pheng yu).
car tsheb zhe (chay)
Npab = can also mean "crazy" but actually it's a adopted word from Laotian. "Vwm" is Hmong's for "crazy."
Npab = is an "arm," but you always put "txhais" before it. It wouldn't be completely incorrect, but still no one should just say "Kuv npab." "Npaab" is the Green Hmong version of it. Either version requires the "txhais" before it to sound correct.
Pab = can also mean a "group" in White Hmong. Same for Green Hmong "paab" - Help or Group. Example: Koj yog pab twg? Or: Koj yog paab twg? Which group are you?
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@CheejSiav In that respect, you are correct; however, Leng will be closer to Middle Hmong since they retain 3 ending rhymes ang, ing, ung, where as De dropped ang. Linguistic pattern shows that the further a language diverge from it's origin, the more ending consonants and vowels it drops.
On the topic of country. We do have a country. We have just as much claim to China as the Hans. From the Yangtze River delta http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full) to Fenghuang town http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang_County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenghuang_County) . Never give up a birthright.
@chidorix0x Hmong as a language have more rules and standards than you think. Examples below.
@YeejKoob13 Whether it's spelled Miao, Hmong, or Mong, it's just a label. If one person excel, (Song zuying, Song Branda, etc..) we all get a good name, if one person screws up (no name provided to prevent family humiliation but you know who they are), we all get a bad name.
@EliteZero01 txhais is a classifier denoting living noun limbs, and is not part of the noun npab. I didn't put a classifier in front of tsheb or phooj ywg either. standards and rules for classifiers are:
for inanimate nouns is lub..
lub tsheb
lub qhov rooj
lub tog
for animate nouns is tus..
tus nyuj
tus twm
tus neeh
animate noun limbs is txhais
txhais tes
txhais taw
txhais npab
small hand held nouns is rab
rab yuam sij
rab taus
rab pas
classifiers can change meanings of a noun
daim ntawv a blank paper
tsab ntawv a written paper
phau ntawv a book
but they are not part of the noun.
I am aware that the average Hmong word has more than one definitions.
siab= heart, liver, high, tall
daus= snow, dip
tsim= wake up, torture, create
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Just wondering what a "neeh" is. Never heard it before unless it's a typo.
You should teach a Hmong class.
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Why would you care if a church decides to speak Green or White Hmong? The fact is, Hmong have two dialects (or maybe it can be called 2 languages) and its up to peope which one they prefer. In any case, it's none of your business what version of Hmong someone decides to speak.
As for standardizatio n, the same principle applies. Why should someone who is born Green be forced to speak and read White Hmong? Vice versa... It's a ridiculous notion that everyone must conform to someone's idea of a "standard." Do you know what standards are used for? A standard is a measurement upon where things begin to deviate. For example, there's standard English, then there's slang, jargons and everything else that doesn't fit in. There's even dialects and spoonerisms that don't fit into standard English. The point being, language is ever-evolving and rather than add to the problem, it's a better idea to build on it.
My last point is directed at your attitude. I don't not support your views because you, like your friend Chido, have an elitist/seperatist point of view. You guys like to point the finger at the other Hmong group while maintaining that your side is correct and flawless. This is not the attitude of someone who is looking out for the greater good of all Hmong. We are Hmong and if we can't get along, it means we are all failing.
Great sage,
Whether your a Great Sage or not Hmong have already standardize their language and it's the White Hmong along with a few Green Hmong but what happen? one of the Green Hmong professor didn't like the idea that we're finally getting a long and so he started this whole clash of "what about the Green Hmong dialect? We need to get that dialect into the system too!" duh the selected words are already in the White Hmong dictionary! We don't need to go to war to proof who's greater than who, when we have organize ourselves and have come to conformity of a specific language we should just stick with it. And that's why Hmong never flourish because they want self aggrandizement! How pathetic
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Just wondering what a "neeh" is. Never heard it before unless it's a typo.
You should teach a Hmong class.
Where did you get that? That look like the mien tone. The "h" tone being similar to the "m" tone in Hmong
Yiem longx nyieh saah?
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Neeh is a typo and what I was trying to write is neeg.
@chidorix0x I wasn't going to touch on the six months of darkness and such but here's a link to clarify some of those confusions so as not to confuse Hmong people on their origin.
http://www.hmongtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=190&ArticleID=978&TM=64337.16 (http://www.hmongtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=190&ArticleID=978&TM=64337.16)
Although I disagree with Dr. Gary Yia Lee on most points regarding his beliefs in Hmong culture, and I believe he creates more division than unity between us and our cousins in China, based on my hobby of studying neolithic Chinese cultures, Asian languages, Hmong rituals and Asian genetics (disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert on the subject matter nor am I a scholar) my conclusion to the origin of Hmong people concurs with his.
What makes a person a Hmong is 3 things: the qeej (lusheng), the qhuab ke (the guiding) and the nruas (drum), and they must be used for rituals. All three major branches does this. The difference in dialects are mostly from borrow words, but the universal words are the same pronounced differently. Here is a link to a video someone has put together. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9gzKWR-lk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9gzKWR-lk#)
When linguists reconstruct languages, they look for universal words like fire, water and mountains, and locations of possible origins, then compare them. Words like lions and tigers and bears are used to determined places of origins. So if Hmong have the word snow, but lives in South East Asia where there aren't any snow, then it is compare to other languages in the region with snow to see if it might have been borrowed. If the word that Hmong use for snow is unique then it is a Hmong word, and it also points to an origin where there are snow. The word for snow in Hmong is daus xib dau nphoo, sometimes shorten to just daus. As you can see, this is actually not a word but a description, there for, Hmong could not have originated from a place of snow and ice, and instead, use a description to explain it.
You'd probably argue, well, people might forget a word or replaces them. That's true also, that's why you compare all the dialects to eliminate the borrowed words. Take the word ta lat which means a store or a market in Tai (Thai and Lao is a nationality and ethnic designation, not a language. Just like you don't speak Australian or American). The Hmong word is kiab. Sometimes it's said with the compound kiab khw, sometimes it's said with just khw. However, kiab is the noun and khw is the adjective. Khw is a tonal change called sound sandhi from the word khwv, which is to work ie.. kiab khwv. If only 2 of 32 dialect uses ta lat, then it's eliminated as an original word.
On the topic of sound sandhi, an examples of one the rules for the Hmong language is, in counting months, if the adjectives ends with the "b" or "j" tone, then tone for hli is changed to hlis.
ib hlis
ob hlis
peb hlis
plaub hlis
tsib hlis
rau hli
xya hli
yim hli
cuaj hlis
kaum hli
There are many more of these rules.
Edit: fixed the link to my previous post to Funghuang town. there are many many beautiful towns our forefathers built in China
Zhenyauan http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/guizhou/kaili/wuyanghe.htm (http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/guizhou/kaili/wuyanghe.htm)
Dehang http://taiwandiscovery.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/beautiful-dehang-the-perfect-place-to-recover-from-the-rigors-of-china-travel/ (http://taiwandiscovery.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/beautiful-dehang-the-perfect-place-to-recover-from-the-rigors-of-china-travel/)
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Great sage,
Whether your a Great Sage or not Hmong have already standardize their language and it's the White Hmong along with a few Green Hmong but what happen? one of the Green Hmong professor didn't like the idea that we're finally getting a long and so he started this whole clash of "what about the Green Hmong dialect? We need to get that dialect into the system too!" duh the selected words are already in the White Hmong dictionary! We don't need to go to war to proof who's greater than who, when we have organize ourselves and have come to conformity of a specific language we should just stick with it. And that's why Hmong never flourish because they want self aggrandizement! How pathetic
If that's the case, then why are you so offended that people want to speak or write Green Hmong? Honestly, I could care less what dialect anyone speaks. They have a right to do whatever they want. I can speak White and Green; and I encourage everyone to be able to do both. It's not so difficult. The difference is not Mandarin and Cantonese by any stretch.
Look here... I only care about the greater good of Hmong. Anyone who wants to create division or separation; they do on their own. I hope Hmong people are smart enough to know what's good for them. If some new intellect devises a standard Hmong that works better and everyone agrees, except me; who do you think is in the right? I don't think it would be me. In contrast, if someone came and said Green Hmong was gospel and anyone who denied it was ignorant, I believe most Hmong would oppose this idea too. Therefore, I'm certainly in favor of progress... How about you?
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todspengo,
I appreciate your perspective/input - coming from the linguistic angle versus other folks who were just blabbering "bs", not knowing top from bottom. Whereas linguistic markers are the primary ammo of an ethnographer, sociologist and anthropologist are rooted in custom, culture, and daily life routines; such as farming, hunting, and gathering etc.. Admittingly, I have not read much scholarship on ethnography, the linguistics perspective, as those are not as popular or publicly advertised over their peers, but know all too well anthropologist s, sociologists, and ethnographers do not always see "eye to eye". And each school has arguably made just as plausible an explanation to dismiss the other. That said, I have not seen nor read enough scholarships on the Hmong language - specifically linguistics, to uphold or refute your perspective. We, those who are remotely educated, rationale/reasoned, and of sound mind, all know too well that the Hmong language has borrowed from Chinese, Lao, Thai, English, and who knows what other non-Hmong language. This is a global fact for any and all language. The reverse can be said or argued as well, for ep., Mong (English, wrong pronunciation by the way) for Hmoob/Moob. My point here is, much like what is within this thread among plenty of other Hmong topics/discussion, we really just do not know or know enough one way or another. What I do know, is that the more I learn about Hmong history, language, culture, and customs, the more I am prone (convinced) to be very opinionated about specific subject matters. Why? Because afterwards I have some or seemingly enough information to logically (sometimes even bias) conceptualize a plausible conclusion - truth if you want to call it that. That has been my "argument/point" more than not. And yes, I do not take lightly to those who want to "rant", believing they know a thing or two solely based on second-hand scholarship or "hearsay" - yet cannot make a sound argument or cite any scholarship when pressed.
As for the "daus" and "kiab" words, yes, from my personal field inquiries/conversation (research) with the elders, they do mean "snow/ice" and "market/store" respectively. As for your other insight, I am not sure I completely agree with you. Specific to "daus", how can one simply come up with a word or phrase just to explain something they have never seen firsthand. Hmong, our ancestors, must have either lived in a land, or seen "snow/ice" firsthand else they would have never had a word for it. It is unfathomable. The Hmong language, unlike English and other worldly language, sometimes do not have a single word or vocabulary for a thing, place, or item; thus the word is typically a "descriptive phrase", using several word(s) combination. Here is just but one example of many. Take the word "airplane". The borrowed or re-interpreted Hmong word from the Lao word "ngoo hoo" (typo I'm sure) is "nyob hoom". Those who do not know better will argue that this is in fact a native Hmong word. It is not. The actual Hmong word for "airplane" is "dav hlau" - literally "iron bird/hawk" - a "descriptive phrase" as we can see. "Daus" and "kiab/khws(v)" are not descriptive to my knowledge, as far as how I know/understand Hmong. The point here is, one cannot simply just make up a "description" or "phrase" for something they have not witnessed first-hand. The "airplane" being "dav hlau", thus it is only logical that "snow/ice" was called "daus" or "npuag dub npuag dau" or "daus xib dau nphoo".
Sorry, but I am not going to comment on the "lusheng" or "qeej" thing. That gets too diluted and is out of context imho.
Anyway, good points and good research. Thanks for sharing. These are the kind of comments/posts I enjoy reading and commenting to. (I'm always open to broadening my personal study of Hmong history and knowledge data-bank.)
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If that's the case, then why are you so offended that people want to speak or write Green Hmong? Honestly, I could care less what dialect anyone speaks. They have a right to do whatever they want. I can speak White and Green; and I encourage everyone to be able to do both. It's not so difficult. The difference is not Mandarin and Cantonese by any stretch.
Look here... I only care about the greater good of Hmong. Anyone who wants to create division or separation; they do on their own. I hope Hmong people are smart enough to know what's good for them. If some new intellect devises a standard Hmong that works better and everyone agrees, except me; who do you think is in the right? I don't think it would be me. In contrast, if someone came and said Green Hmong was gospel and anyone who denied it was ignorant, I believe most Hmong would oppose this idea too. Therefore, I'm certainly in favor of progress... How about you?
And that's what I'm pin pointing about these churches. When Hmong have establish a standardize system already why break us up trying to have division like Church learn and speak Green Hmong so that they can show pride in themselves that Green Hmong is the actual language. Now think about it, I wouldn't go and establish a church and said that God only knows White Hmong not Green Hmong so everybody speak White Hmong in the Church please. That's just prejudice and that is to your point segregating the common people. I go to family that are White Hmong house but speaks Green Hmong and when i speak white Hmong to them they said "you're not suppose to speak White Hmong because God doesn't know White Hmong he only knows Green Hmong" I then pause and think which fckface would brain wash somebody into thinking that??? Now that's from experience. And I'm pretty sure it's not an intention for the pastor to simply think that God only speaks Green Hmong but he's probably trying to fight this language thing by converting people over to Green Hmong by lying to everybody about "God only speaks and understand Green Hmong."
I agree with you that anybody, anyone can speak whatever language that they want to as long as you don't segregate and divide the community into groups like this.
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Neeh is a typo and what I was trying to write is neeg.
@chidorix0x I wasn't going to touch on the six months of darkness and such but here's a link to clarify some of those confusions so as not to confuse Hmong people on their origin.
http://www.hmongtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=190&ArticleID=978&TM=64337.16 (http://www.hmongtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=190&ArticleID=978&TM=64337.16)
Although I disagree with Dr. Gary Yia Lee on most points regarding his beliefs in Hmong culture, and I believe he creates more division than unity between us and our cousins in China, based on my hobby of studying neolithic Chinese cultures, Asian languages, Hmong rituals and Asian genetics (disclaimer: I don't claim to be an expert on the subject matter nor am I a scholar) my conclusion to the origin of Hmong people concurs with his.
What makes a person a Hmong is 3 things: the qeej (lusheng), the qhuab ke (the guiding) and the nruas (drum), and they must be used for rituals. All three major branches does this. The difference in dialects are mostly from borrow words, but the universal words are the same pronounced differently. Here is a link to a video someone has put together. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9gzKWR-lk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE9gzKWR-lk#)
When linguists reconstruct languages, they look for universal words like fire, water and mountains, and locations of possible origins, then compare them. Words like lions and tigers and bears are used to determined places of origins. So if Hmong have the word snow, but lives in South East Asia where there aren't any snow, then it is compare to other languages in the region with snow to see if it might have been borrowed. If the word that Hmong use for snow is unique then it is a Hmong word, and it also points to an origin where there are snow. The word for snow in Hmong is daus xib dau nphoo, sometimes shorten to just daus. As you can see, this is actually not a word but a description, there for, Hmong could not have originated from a place of snow and ice, and instead, use a description to explain it.
You'd probably argue, well, people might forget a word or replaces them. That's true also, that's why you compare all the dialects to eliminate the borrowed words. Take the word ta lat which means a store or a market in Tai (Thai and Lao is a nationality and ethnic designation, not a language. Just like you don't speak Australian or American). The Hmong word is kiab. Sometimes it's said with the compound kiab khw, sometimes it's said with just khw. However, kiab is the noun and khw is the adjective. Khw is a tonal change called sound sandhi from the word khwv, which is to work ie.. kiab khwv. If only 2 of 32 dialect uses ta lat, then it's eliminated as an original word.
On the topic of sound sandhi, an examples of one the rules for the Hmong language is, in counting months, if the adjectives ends with the "b" or "j" tone, then tone for hli is changed to hlis.
ib hlis
ob hlis
peb hlis
plaub hlis
tsib hlis
rau hli
xya hli
yim hli
cuaj hlis
kaum hli
There are many more of these rules.
Edit: fixed the link to my previous post to Funghuang town. there are many many beautiful towns our forefathers built in China
Zhenyauan http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/guizhou/kaili/wuyanghe.htm (http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/guizhou/kaili/wuyanghe.htm)
Dehang http://taiwandiscovery.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/beautiful-dehang-the-perfect-place-to-recover-from-the-rigors-of-china-travel/ (http://taiwandiscovery.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/beautiful-dehang-the-perfect-place-to-recover-from-the-rigors-of-china-travel/)
This is excellent Thanks for the Intel topspengo. Can you elaborate more on tone sandhi a lot of people in here probably don't quite understand it because it is complicate to comprehend why we have them in our daily social system and why we don't recognize them but say them the way it is said following a high tone
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Now concerning the origin of the Hmong. What are the Korean then? because they said that their ancestor is also Chih Yu.
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And that's what I'm pin pointing about these churches. When Hmong have establish a standardize system already why break us up trying to have division like Church learn and speak Green Hmong so that they can show pride in themselves that Green Hmong is the actual language. Now think about it, I wouldn't go and establish a church and said that God only knows White Hmong not Green Hmong so everybody speak White Hmong in the Church please. That's just prejudice and that is to your point segregating the common people. I go to family that are White Hmong house but speaks Green Hmong and when i speak white Hmong to them they said "you're not suppose to speak White Hmong because God doesn't know White Hmong he only knows Green Hmong" I then pause and think which fckface would brain wash somebody into thinking that??? Now that's from experience. And I'm pretty sure it's not an intention for the pastor to simply think that God only speaks Green Hmong but he's probably trying to fight this language thing by converting people over to Green Hmong by lying to everybody about "God only speaks and understand Green Hmong."
I agree with you that anybody, anyone can speak whatever language that they want to as long as you don't segregate and divide the community into groups like this.
Here's a better idea. If you don't want to speak the kind of Hmong that's spoken at a specific Church, don't go there. It's as simple as that.
Also, language does not segregate us as much as attitude. That you have a problem with someone's use of a dialect is more disturbing than them believing they're correct. You're no better than they are.
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Now concerning the origin of the Hmong. What are the Korean then? because they said that their ancestor is also Chih Yu.
Chiyou like all ancient mythical figures (Guanyu, Shenon, Nuwa) have now rooted itself into all major cultures in the area. However, the Han and Hmong Chiyou legends are the same while the Korean one is different. The Korean belief may have a nationalistic agenda because it would put Korean culture as old as that of China (Han, Hmong, Tijua, Qiang etc...), and show that Koreans have always contended for supremacy with the Han Chinese. But you have to keep in mind that the Koreans who believe Chiyou to be their ancient king is in the minority, and the average Koreans don't believe in Chiyou.
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Chiyou like all ancient mythical figures (Guanyu, Shenon, Nuwa) have now rooted itself into all major cultures in the area. However, the Han and Hmong Chiyou legends are the same while the Korean one is different. The Korean belief may have a nationalistic agenda because it would put Korean culture as old as that of China (Han, Hmong, Tijua, Qiang etc...), and show that Koreans have always contended for supremacy with the Han Chinese. But you have to keep in mind that the Koreans who believe Chiyou to be their ancient king is in the minority, and the average Koreans don't believe in Chiyou.
Neither does the average Hmong believe in Chi You. The average Hmong doesn't even know Chi You. Our grandparents don't know him. So Chi You is just another Chinese; as susptected by most.
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Here's a better idea. If you don't want to speak the kind of Hmong that's spoken at a specific Church, don't go there. It's as simple as that.
Also, language does not segregate us as much as attitude. That you have a problem with someone's use of a dialect is more disturbing than them believing they're correct. You're no better than they are.
Language and attitude doesn't segregate us it's your perception that segregate us. For example would everyone always think negative when they don't understand what two Chinese or different Ethnicity is talking about so they assume that the two are talking crap about them and just dislike them for that but in reality they weren't! It's how you take things in and how you use your perceptions on things around you. Think about it that way and rethink your thoughts Great Sage
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Chiyou like all ancient mythical figures (Guanyu, Shenon, Nuwa) have now rooted itself into all major cultures in the area. However, the Han and Hmong Chiyou legends are the same while the Korean one is different. The Korean belief may have a nationalistic agenda because it would put Korean culture as old as that of China (Han, Hmong, Tijua, Qiang etc...), and show that Koreans have always contended for supremacy with the Han Chinese. But you have to keep in mind that the Koreans who believe Chiyou to be their ancient king is in the minority, and the average Koreans don't believe in Chiyou.
But what about the culture and ritual that the Korean do? I know my friend mention to me that there are some that does Shamanism too
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Neither does the average Hmong believe in Chi You. The average Hmong doesn't even know Chi You. Our grandparents don't know him. So Chi You is just another Chinese; as susptected by most.
Okay then where did you get your facts from that "a lot" of the Hmong Elder don't know who Chi you is? You got to see it this way too most of them were born in Lao's so they didn't get any exposure to a knowledge of our forefather or who the King was back in China. The very few that are expose are the one who are curious about who they are. Are you curious of who you are?
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Neither does the average Hmong believe in Chi You. The average Hmong doesn't even know Chi You. Our grandparents don't know him. So Chi You is just another Chinese; as susptected by most.
I suppose I should make myself clearer. The majority of Koreans do not consider Chiyou an ancestral king, where as the vast majority of Hmong do. The average Hmong growing up in America do not know who Chiyou is because they probably had never heard of one dab neeg in their life. It's sad... But most people who were born in SE Asia grew up hearing dab neeg of peb Txiv Yawg (Chiyou) and Huab Tais (HuangTi) from either their grandmother or grandfather. Most Hmong, myself included, hear about the folklore of Txiv Yawg and Huab Tais, and we used these terms all the time, but until recently, when we started making contact with our cousins in China, we did not know of the significance of it.
I'm pretty sure you hear about Txiv Yawg and Huab Tais all the time, but you just did not know the significance behind it.
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hmong originated from Eurasia
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only regions in the world that practice bride kidnapping is in eurasia/central asia. Hmong people originated there. thats why hmong traditionally use spoons, hmong play tub lub (top spin sport) and no other culture in china, southeast asia does that stuff except hmong. that's why i believe more about this theory of hmong coming from eurasia. and looking at the ancient hmong writing alphabet it looks more middle east.
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only regions in the world that practice bride kidnapping is in eurasia/central asia. Hmong people originated there. thats why hmong traditionally use spoons, hmong play tub lub (top spin sport) and no other culture in china, southeast asia does that stuff except hmong. that's why i believe more about this theory of hmong coming from eurasia. and looking at the ancient hmong writing alphabet it looks more middle east.
I missed the point of shamanism. A lot of cultures practice shamanism, but that does not mean the practices are related. Native Americans practice shamanism too. Korean shamanism has it's roots in Siberia, Mongolia and Manchuria. Different regions practice it differently from other regions.
This topic is on the origin of the language not the origin of the people, but I supposed the two go hand in hand so I'll bite.
You can't base the origin of a people by 2 things.
1. Hmong do not traditionally use forks and spoons. Hmong do not even have a word for fork. Rawg, contratry to Hmong American beliefs, does not mean fork. It means chopsticks. If you step outside of Laos, you will notice that All Hmong uses chopsticks. From China, to Vietnam to Thailand. The only Hmong people who do not use chopsticks are those from Laos. You are the minority so your way is not the norm.
2. Every culture kidnap brides. You don't hear about it because you don't live in that culture. And just like in the Hmong culture, it's shun upon. Most of the kidnappings you're referring to is actually consensual, so it's not kidnapping, but eloping. This is thanks in to the part of Hmong ignorance in conveying this to the Western world.
3. We covered this in the Paj Ntaub Aphabet section of this forum that it's a mid to late 19th century fabrication. Here's an exert to a more scholarly article regarding actual Hmong writing history. You have to buy the book or get it at your local library if you want to read the rest.
http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631214816_chunk_g978063121481610_ss1-22 (http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631214816_chunk_g978063121481610_ss1-22)
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only regions in the world that practice bride kidnapping is in eurasia/central asia. Hmong people originated there. thats why hmong traditionally use spoons, hmong play tub lub (top spin sport) and no other culture in china, southeast asia does that stuff except hmong. that's why i believe more about this theory of hmong coming from eurasia. and looking at the ancient hmong writing alphabet it looks more middle east.
Okay what about the instruments then? No other Asian have the Qeej that would lead their dead to the other world. Here's what I found in the scriptures that back before the 12 tribe's diaspora there was one particular tribe that carry an instrument that lead the dead to the other world and no other tribe have nor can do that ritual because it's so sacred
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I missed the point of shamanism. A lot of cultures practice shamanism, but that does not mean the practices are related. Native Americans practice shamanism too. Korean shamanism has it's roots in Siberia, Mongolia and Manchuria. Different regions practice it differently from other regions.
This topic is on the origin of the language not the origin of the people, but I supposed the two go hand in hand so I'll bite.
You can't base the origin of a people by 2 things.
1. Hmong do not traditionally use forks and spoons. Hmong do not even have a word for fork. Rawg, contratry to Hmong American beliefs, does not mean fork. It means chopsticks. If you step outside of Laos, you will notice that All Hmong uses chopsticks. From China, to Vietnam to Thailand. The only Hmong people who do not use chopsticks are those from Laos. You are the minority so your way is not the norm.
2. Every culture kidnap brides. You don't hear about it because you don't live in that culture. And just like in the Hmong culture, it's shun upon. Most of the kidnappings you're referring to is actually consensual, so it's not kidnapping, but eloping. This is thanks in to the part of Hmong ignorance in conveying this to the Western world.
3. We covered this in the Paj Ntaub Aphabet section of this forum that it's a mid to late 19th century fabrication. Here's an exert to a more scholarly article regarding actual Hmong writing history. You have to buy the book or get it at your local library if you want to read the rest.
http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631214816_chunk_g978063121481610_ss1-22 (http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631214816_chunk_g978063121481610_ss1-22)
So about Shamanism where, how, when did it establish to what root is it? There's got to be an explanation to all the ordinance and sacrifices because it's really similar to the b.c. sacrifice if you think about it that way. So how many Shamanism race are there?
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only regions in the world that practice bride kidnapping is in eurasia/central asia. Hmong people originated there. thats why hmong traditionally use spoons, hmong play tub lub (top spin sport) and no other culture in china, southeast asia does that stuff except hmong. that's why i believe more about this theory of hmong coming from eurasia. and looking at the ancient hmong writing alphabet it looks more middle east.
::) ... no such thing except a Hmong person's imagination - 20th/21st century innovation. Anyone (Hmong especially) who believes this is either gullible or ignorant of all the facts, or both. (There is even a recently introduced ancient/ordained Hmong Script, I came across, that is exactly like Arabic scripts - :idiot2: - :knuppel2: .)
And this thread is getting off track with irrelevant comments/posts. Where are all the pros and cons specific to the thread. That's what I'd like to see more of etc..
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So about Shamanism where, how, when did it establish to what root is it? There's got to be an explanation to all the ordinance and sacrifices because it's really similar to the b.c. sacrifice if you think about it that way. So how many Shamanism race are there?
I don't have a lot of knowledge about shamanism as a whole, but I do know that all pre-Christian people believe in shamanism.
To me, religion is just a set of made up stories to fill an unexplainable (where did we come from, where do we go when we die), hope for the hopeless (My kids and I are starving, but we will go to heaven or to my ancestors), make money (the Knights Templar and their banking system, the Pope and his Crusades), or control people (medieval lords and their serfs, the South and their slaves).
Since this topic is straying into religion I think a new thread should be started, but do keep in mind that you will not be able to have a sound conversation. The religious people will start telling you how Hmong people are the lost tribe of Israel and cite from sources that they can't show you, and the anti religious people will start to tell the religious ones how stupid they are.
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Although quite awhile ago, I studied the evolution of the English language and its origins from Old English. It would be interesting to take the same approach in order to determine the evolution of Hmong language. Unfortunately, I can't do this since I have little education about the history of Hmong migration. It is interesting that Hmoob Leeg is widely spoken in many other parts of the Asian continent where the Hmong reside. However, that may be, it doesn't confirm that Hmoob Leeg is the original. But reading all the inputs on this thread and assuming that everybody provided a little truth to their perspectives, it is certainly most fascinating how Hmoob Dawb phonetics maintained its uniqueness from Hmong Leeg - which again, has been implied by many on the forum as the widely-spoken dialect and more glazed with Chinese tones. Using the same approach I learned in the class about English, I draw my own conclusions (not saying that it is fact or anything). But I'm not sure phers can handle it. ;D
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Although quite awhile ago, I studied the evolution of the English language and its origins from Old English. It would be interesting to take the same approach in order to determine the evolution of Hmong language. Unfortunately, I can't do this since I have little education about the history of Hmong migration. It is interesting that Hmoob Leeg is widely spoken in many other parts of the Asian continent where the Hmong reside. However, that may be, it doesn't confirm that Hmoob Leeg is the original. But reading all the inputs on this thread and assuming that everybody provided a little truth to their perspectives, it is certainly most fascinating how Hmoob Dawb phonetics maintained its uniqueness from Hmong Leeg - which again, has been implied by many on the forum as the widely-spoken dialect and more glazed with Chinese tones. Using the same approach I learned in the class about English, I draw my own conclusions (not saying that it is fact or anything). But I'm not sure phers can handle it. ;D
The lot of us who are of sound mind and are of worldly endowment can more or less make an educated assumption of what "conclusion" you may have drawn, O0
Ironically, I have never personally heard a "Hmoob Dawb" claim nor suggest that their language and cultural practice(s) is the original and authentic product of our Hmong ancestors - White and Green. Well, maybe except for me, but I never said it was, only that it is something to consider for further investigation and research based off of historical content and/or academic scholarships. That however is not the case among the "Hmoob/Moob Ntsuab/Lees/Leeg", as I have heard several of them making this boastful unofficial claim - :o.
What I find amusing (even comical if not hilarious), is that "Hmoob Dawb" only refers to themself as "Hmoob Dawb" - White, exclusively; whereas the Green Hmong, call themself either "Ntsuab", "Lees", or "Leeg" - ;D . (Ok, I admit "Lees" and "Leeg" are the same, just different per dialect, White and Green respectively.) Point is, Green Hmong cannot or do not even know which of the three they really are, or want to be called, so how can we, Hmong in general, take any "Hmoob/Moob Ntsuab, Lees, Leeg" unofficial boasting they claim seriously, or without suspicion - ;D
And please, let's not go into the "Hmoob/Moob Ntsuab, Lees, Leeg" dichotomy - ::) Yeah, maybe I may be highly opinionated, but I find that debacle purely - :idiot2: . Without touching that subject specifically, here's an analogy: an affluent African-American claims he/she is not a "ghetto negro". Interesting, yet we all know too well, they are in fact one and the same - natives of Africa, ;) (And I have heard several folklore about White and Green - :2funny: , LMAO! Ok, I'll stop there ... :-X)
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I haven't been on any forums for a while and you white supremacists are still trying to distort facts again?
Lets get one thing straight here, we are Hmong Leng. Green Hmong is what you white supremacists call us. It's either that the word Leng does not exist in the White Hmong dictionary or the White Hmong supremacists refuse to call us by what we call ourselves.
According to what I know, the true Green Hmong are the ones that practice cannabalism. They are the ones that tell their old parents to come down and get into the pot -- only to realize that their children will do the same to them. That's why they either died out or gave up the canabalistic practices and joined other Hmong groups.
And lets all be honest here, deep down, we all know that White Hmong is a bastardized version of Hmong Leng. It is not as powerful in comparison, that's why everybody talk trash in White. The White dialect itself sounds fake and phony. That may, in fact, be one of the qualities that made it so successful. If we were all to speak in Hmong Leng, there wouldn't be that much talking going on. It is not wise to joke in the language of the heavens. Verbal assualts in the Hmong Leng dialect are of the highest degree. For petty bullshit, we use the white dialect and English/foreign languages.
Boastful they may be, but unlike you guys, there is an absence of hatred in their words. I am sorry, but this is the truth about the white and "green" dialects. This is the view that will remain in effect for as long as Hmong Leng is spoken.
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I haven't been on any forums for a while and you white supremacists are still trying to distort facts again?
Lets get one thing straight here, we are Hmong Leng. Green Hmong is what you white supremacists call us. It's either that the word Leng does not exist in the White Hmong dictionary or the White Hmong supremacists refuse to call us by what we call ourselves.
According to what I know, the true Green Hmong are the ones that practice cannabalism. They are the ones that tell their old parents to come down and get into the pot -- only to realize that their children will do the same to them. That's why they either died out or gave up the canabalistic practices and joined other Hmong groups.
And lets all be honest here, deep down, we all know that White Hmong is a bastardized version of Hmong Leng. It is not as powerful in comparison, that's why everybody talk trash in White. The White dialect itself sounds fake and phony. That may, in fact, be one of the qualities that made it so successful. If we were all to speak in Hmong Leng, there wouldn't be that much talking going on. It is not wise to joke in the language of the heavens. Verbal assualts in the Hmong Leng dialect are of the highest degree. For petty bullshit, we use the white dialect and English/foreign languages.
Boastful they may be, but unlike you guys, there is an absence of hatred in their words. I am sorry, but this is the truth about the white and "green" dialects. This is the view that will remain in effect for as long as Hmong Leng is spoken.
How do you know? You're not White so you don't see it through their perspective
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Although quite awhile ago, I studied the evolution of the English language and its origins from Old English. It would be interesting to take the same approach in order to determine the evolution of Hmong language. Unfortunately, I can't do this since I have little education about the history of Hmong migration. It is interesting that Hmoob Leeg is widely spoken in many other parts of the Asian continent where the Hmong reside. However, that may be, it doesn't confirm that Hmoob Leeg is the original. But reading all the inputs on this thread and assuming that everybody provided a little truth to their perspectives, it is certainly most fascinating how Hmoob Dawb phonetics maintained its uniqueness from Hmong Leeg - which again, has been implied by many on the forum as the widely-spoken dialect and more glazed with Chinese tones. Using the same approach I learned in the class about English, I draw my own conclusions (not saying that it is fact or anything). But I'm not sure phers can handle it. ;D
That's right and that's what other scholar that I've talked to in California said to me concerning the Origin of the Hmong and White Hmong is the closest but not the root
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The lot of us who are of sound mind and are of worldly endowment can more or less make an educated assumption of what "conclusion" you may have drawn, O0
Ironically, I have never personally heard a "Hmoob Dawb" claim nor suggest that their language and cultural practice(s) is the original and authentic product of our Hmong ancestors - White and Green. Well, maybe except for me, but I never said it was, only that it is something to consider for further investigation and research based off of historical content and/or academic scholarships. That however is not the case among the "Hmoob/Moob Ntsuab/Lees/Leeg", as I have heard several of them making this boastful unofficial claim - :o.
What I find amusing (even comical if not hilarious), is that "Hmoob Dawb" only refers to themself as "Hmoob Dawb" - White, exclusively; whereas the Green Hmong, call themself either "Ntsuab", "Lees", or "Leeg" - ;D . (Ok, I admit "Lees" and "Leeg" are the same, just different per dialect, White and Green respectively.) Point is, Green Hmong cannot or do not even know which of the three they really are, or want to be called, so how can we, Hmong in general, take any "Hmoob/Moob Ntsuab, Lees, Leeg" unofficial boasting they claim seriously, or without suspicion - ;D
And please, let's not go into the "Hmoob/Moob Ntsuab, Lees, Leeg" dichotomy - ::) Yeah, maybe I may be highly opinionated, but I find that debacle purely - :idiot2: . Without touching that subject specifically, here's an analogy: an affluent African-American claims he/she is not a "ghetto negro". Interesting, yet we all know too well, they are in fact one and the same - natives of Africa, ;) (And I have heard several folklore about White and Green - :2funny: , LMAO! Ok, I'll stop there ... :-X)
lol
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The religious people will start telling you how Hmong people are the lost tribe of Israel and cite from sources that they can't show you, and the anti religious people will start to tell the religious ones how stupid they are.
This is off topic but,
To todspengo:
Here are the sources that they can't show you:
The earliest work published in the West about the Miao or a Hmong-related group that I have been able to find was a French language article by Joseph Amiot published in 1778. The article discussed Christian missionary work with a Miao group in China. A half century later, in the 1830s and 1840s, a small but growing literature by Western-based writers began to develop. Many of these works consisted of articles with similar titles and themes. In 1831, an unlisted author published “Observations on the Miao-Tsze Mountaineers” in an English-language journal focusing on research in China.
F.M. Savina, best known for his French-language classic History des Miao which includes a large pullout map with a dotted line tracing what he believed to be the geographic origins of the Hmong people in present-day Iraq as a lost tribe of Israel. Savina also published a French-Hmong dictionary and articles about the Hmong and other Miao languages and Hmong/Miao rebellions in China. F.M. Savina theorizes that they originated from the Middle-East (after the Tower of Babel), migrated north into Siberia, and then settled in China (qtd. in Yang).
I don't know how they came to this conclusion of Hmong people coming from the Tower of Babel, but it's interesting... ???
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This is off topic but,
To todspengo:
Here are the sources that they can't show you:
The earliest work published in the West about the Miao or a Hmong-related group that I have been able to find was a French language article by Joseph Amiot published in 1778. The article discussed Christian missionary work with a Miao group in China. A half century later, in the 1830s and 1840s, a small but growing literature by Western-based writers began to develop. Many of these works consisted of articles with similar titles and themes. In 1831, an unlisted author published “Observations on the Miao-Tsze Mountaineers” in an English-language journal focusing on research in China.
F.M. Savina, best known for his French-language classic History des Miao which includes a large pullout map with a dotted line tracing what he believed to be the geographic origins of the Hmong people in present-day Iraq as a lost tribe of Israel. Savina also published a French-Hmong dictionary and articles about the Hmong and other Miao languages and Hmong/Miao rebellions in China. F.M. Savina theorizes that they originated from the Middle-East (after the Tower of Babel), migrated north into Siberia, and then settled in China (qtd. in Yang).
I don't know how they came to this conclusion of Hmong people coming from the Tower of Babel, but it's interesting... ???
Read this.
http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf (http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf)
Some people in this forum dismiss his conclusions, but who are you going to believe? Self proclaim experts who regurgitates information they read on the internet or someone who actually did field studies in China, Laos and America. Until someone with credibility comes along and debunks his conclusions, his work is regarded as the foremost expert on the Hmong people in the academia community.
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I haven't been on any forums for a while and you white supremacists are still trying to distort facts again?
Lets get one thing straight here, we are Hmong Leng. Green Hmong is what you white supremacists call us. It's either that the word Leng does not exist in the White Hmong dictionary or the White Hmong supremacists refuse to call us by what we call ourselves.
According to what I know, the true Green Hmong are the ones that practice cannabalism. They are the ones that tell their old parents to come down and get into the pot -- only to realize that their children will do the same to them. That's why they either died out or gave up the canabalistic practices and joined other Hmong groups.
And lets all be honest here, deep down, we all know that White Hmong is a bastardized version of Hmong Leng. It is not as powerful in comparison, that's why everybody talk trash in White. The White dialect itself sounds fake and phony. That may, in fact, be one of the qualities that made it so successful. If we were all to speak in Hmong Leng, there wouldn't be that much talking going on. It is not wise to joke in the language of the heavens. Verbal assualts in the Hmong Leng dialect are of the highest degree. For petty bullshit, we use the white dialect and English/foreign languages.
Boastful they may be, but unlike you guys, there is an absence of hatred in their words. I am sorry, but this s the truth about the white and "green" dialects. This is the view that will remain in effect for as long as Hmong Leng is spoken.
Your idea of white supremacy is backed by comments of leng supremacy. That's not helping you. :idiot2:
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Your idea of white supremacy is backed by comments of leng supremacy. That's not helping you. :idiot2:
You probably meant that my defense against white supremacy is leng supremacy.
I'm throwing out an honest view that is shared by many.
If you don't like it, share your views on the issue besides pinpointing my bias.
What you are doing is finding a flaw - my bias in this case - and dismissing everything because the truth hurts. Learn to overcome your denial and refrain from making pretty comments please.
Sorry, but I'm not Gandhi.
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I haven't been on any forums for a while and you white supremacists are still trying to distort facts again?
You probably meant that my defense against white supremacy is leng supremacy.
I'm throwing out an honest view that is shared by many.
If you don't like it, share your views on the issue besides pinpointing my bias.
What you are doing is finding a flaw - my bias in this case - and dismissing everything because the truth hurts. Learn to overcome your denial and refrain from making pretty comments please.
Sorry, but I'm not Gandhi.
That's part of debating. You admit yourself that you have a flaw in your logic and I pointed that out. Since you have a flaw, you yourself is distorting the facts.
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That's part of debating. You admit yourself that you have a flaw in your logic and I pointed that out. Since you have a flaw, you yourself is distorting the facts.
Have you even read past my bias?
If did, you would've realized that I'm putting out a view of how some or many Hmong Leng people honestly think about this issue.
Of course it is bound to be bias. But to dismiss it because you feel uneasy of its implications is laughable.
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Have you even read past my bias?
If did, you would've realized that I'm putting out a view of how some or many Hmong Leng people honestly think about this issue.
Of course it is bound to be bias. But to dismiss it because you feel uneasy of its implications is laughable.
And lets all be honest here, deep down, we all know that White Hmong is a bastardized version of Hmong Leng. It is not as powerful in comparison, that's why everybody talk trash in White. The White dialect itself sounds fake and phony. That may, in fact, be one of the qualities that made it so successful. If we were all to speak in Hmong Leng, there wouldn't be that much talking going on. It is not wise to joke in the language of the heavens. Verbal assualts in the Hmong Leng dialect are of the highest degree. For petty bullshit, we use the white dialect and English/foreign languages.
This sounds like Leng supremacy to me. It is not every bias that you said, it's the ones I have in bold from your quote. And if you don't agree that those comments are claiming Leng suprmacy, then you just proven that those white supremacist are correct about their race.
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This sounds like Leng supremacy to me. It is not every bias that you said, it's the ones I have in bold from your quote. And if you don't agree that those comments are claiming Leng suprmacy, then you just proven that those white supremacist are correct about their race.
lol I've failed to understand your logic, but I do find it amusing.
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Read this.
http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf (http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf)
Some people in this forum dismiss his conclusions, but who are you going to believe? Self proclaim experts who regurgitates information they read on the internet or someone who actually did field studies in China, Laos and America. Until someone with credibility comes along and debunks his conclusions, his work is regarded as the foremost expert on the Hmong people in the academia community.
Ever heard of the expression, "A dollar short and a day late.", or, "Monkey see monkey do." Of course you have. Point is.
;D ... nice try. However, I hate to "burst" your GYLee bandwagon, but I can assure you without a doubt that GYLee did not or is not someone who actually did field studies in China, Laos and America. --- being a Hmong-Australian who has only visited the USA once or twice as a guest presenter. As a matter of fact, GYLee did exactly what you suggested - that is - "Self proclaim experts who regurgitates information they read on the internet", plus other scholars' work. And I can point you directly to the sources/resources behind GYLee's paper, but you are a smart individual, surely you can find them yourself - off of the Internet - with some points and clicks - here and there. As a matter of fact, one such scholar who GYLee has gracefully or ungratefully attributed his paper to is now a college professor in Hmong studies at a major university. (If you happen to find and read this professor's Master's thesis, you will see an almost identical parallel if not direct copy in GYLee's paper, of and about the same topic. I have this professor's thesis just so you know, ;) .) And since the lot of you LUV to cite Hmongstudies so much, why not read the other papers by NON-Hmong authors as well, and then you will see where your GYLee fits in - O0 (Hint: J. Lemoine's reply within the same site - :) )
And please, not foremost whatsoever - not by a long shot. Why do you think hardly no one, or Hmong, has even ever heard of him. I sure haven't until I came across his name jotted here and there, wondering who the heck, from other more notable scholars such as Tapp, Lemoine, Yang (NOT the un/infamous Yang), Culas, Betraise, Mottin, Geddes, Bender, Hamilton-Merrit, etc. etc. .
Anyway, keep researching if you want to get off the GYLee bandwagon, else you will be going no where fast.
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Txhob mus hais txog haistias seb hom lus twg yog original dua nad, tam sim no peb twb tsis paub haistias yog vim licas Hmoob Miskas thiaj povpob thaum pebcaug, tiamsis Hmoob Suav ho tsis ua li no lawm nas. Yog yuav hais txog Hmoob original language ces kawg seb yawmsaub puas nqis Los qhia lawm xwb hos tsis li ces av tsij xav seb Hmoob lub neej yuav ua licas thiaj zoo lawm yav tom ntej xwb hos yog peb pheej yuav mus dig yav tom qab xwb ces kawg peb yeej yuav poob qab mus xwb os cov yawg awd.
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Txhob mus hais txog haistias seb hom lus twg yog original dua nad, tam sim no peb twb tsis paub haistias yog vim licas Hmoob Miskas thiaj povpob thaum pebcaug, tiamsis Hmoob Suav ho tsis ua li no lawm nas. Yog yuav hais txog Hmoob original language ces kawg seb yawmsaub puas nqis Los qhia lawm xwb hos tsis li ces av tsij xav seb Hmoob lub neej yuav ua licas thiaj zoo lawm yav tom ntej xwb hos yog peb pheej yuav mus dig yav tom qab xwb ces kawg peb yeej yuav poob qab mus xwb os cov yawg awd.
Hais txog qhov nod, kev pov pob thaum noj peb caug ntawm Hmoob Los Tsuas/Meskas thiab Hmoob Suav - muaj keeb kwm los "scholarships" qhia thiab "explain" lawm laid. Tej zaum koj tsis tau paub, hnov, kawm los sis tshawb fawb tau lawm xwb. Kawg cov xib fwb, Hmoob-Suav "professors", nyob Suav teb paub thiab hais ib yam lid cov "scholarships" piav txog kev pov pob nod. Hais qhov yooj yim, cov Hmoob Los Tsuas/Meskas kawm "adopt" kev pov pob nod los ntawm lwm haiv neeg thaum khiav Suav teb los rau Los Tsuas. Kuv tsis nco haiv neeg ntawd peb lawm - tiam sis lawm pov lub pob khi txoj puam, ces peb Hmoob kawm thiab cia lid ua los txog nej hnub nod xwb. Cov Hmoob Suav ces tsis pom thiab paub txog txoj kev pov pob nod ces thiab tsis kawm "adopt" thiab ua xwb.
Hais txog kev vam meej ntawm peb ib haiv Hmoob. Kuv ntseeg hais tias peb yeej vam meej heev lawm, muab piv rau yav ntuj qub qab. Yog lid nod, peb thiaj yuav tau los taug tej kev los sis cov keeb kwm zoo lid nod, kom paub qhov tseeb vim cuam ua tsis tau tseeb, tseeb ua tsis tau cuam. Yog peb haiv Hmoob tsis taug tej nod ces, kuv ntseeg kuv tus kheej xwb, peb Hmoob tsuas vam meej ntawm lub ncauj xwb --- tsis vam meej kev txawj, kev ntses, kev nrog teb nrog chaws vam meej xws lid Suav, Yiv Pooj, thiab Asmesliskas. Ua tsaug.
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Kuv tau nyeem ib daim ntawv sau Los ntawm ib professor Hmoob suav uas nws tau suggested li koj hais ntawv pug xyoo 2000-2001 ntawv lawm. Tam sim no kuv tsis tau tshawb fawb seb peb cov Hmoob Miskas cov scholars puas tau ua kev tshawb fawb xyuas txog qhov ntawv. But anyway, I'm skeptical, so that conclusion is still questionable to me. Yog muaj tseem li ntawv, vim licas kev povpob ho tshwm sim tas nrho rau cov Hmoob nyob Nplog, Myablaj, thiab Thai, (not sure about Hmong Burma). Peb ib txwm nyob Nplog teb, tiamneej peb tsis tau pom ib pab neeg nyob nrog peb twg povpob hlo li.
Kev tshawb fawb rau Hmoob tej culture yav ntuj qub qab yeej tseem ceeb thiab, tiamsis raws kuv ntsia peb muab focus ntau rau qhov ntawv ntau tshaj li qhov peb focus rau lub neej yav pem suab lawm. Vim haistias yog peb mus tshawb fawb hmong history lossis culture mas peb pom ntau leej hmong scholars los tshawb fawb txog tej ntawv, tiamsis yog peb nrhiav seb Hmoob lun neej yav Tom ntej yuav ua licas no ces tsis muaj ntau leej thiab ntau lub koos haum los hais txog. Lub neej yog yuav mus lawm yav Tom ntej, tsis yog yuav mus rov yav Tom qab, yog li peb yuav tsum focus rau yav Tom ntej kom ntau tshaj. Ua tsaug.
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Tubpojntxoog,
Hais txog kev pov pob, peb haiv Hmoob twb kawm thiab "adopt" thaum peb tseem nyob Suav teb os nawb (Yunnan/Hunnan and Guizchou, 18th century, to be exact) --- thaum tseem nrog Hmab nrog Sua nyob ua ke, nkaum thiab khiav Suav kev yuam. Ces thaum peb haiv Hmoob khiav Suav teb, late 18th century to 19th century, los rau Los Tsuas; cov teb chaws lid Nyablaj, Nplog, Thaib, thiab YasMab ces peb cia lid pov pob los lawm xwb los txog nej hnub nod. Cov Hmoob-Suav ua tseem nyob teb chaws Suav, lawd tsis pov pob vim lawd tsis yog cov kwv tij nrog peb khiav tsov rog. Lawd yog cov poob thiab nyob tom qab, raug ua Suav tus mej zeej. Koj nkag siab lawm lod?
Hais txog Hmoob lub neej, los sis kev vam meej yav pem suab. Quite honestly, there are already way way too many interest groups, orgs, individuals, and visionaries since Hmong's arrival in the States trying desperately to cement their strangle hold on its actualization. Qhov "problem" vim lis cas peb haiv Hmoob pheej tsis vam meej los sis pheej "stagnate and stall" - nej sawv daws yeej paub zoo lawm - Hmong just have too many wanna-be. Nyias tsuas kham nyias thiab kuv pheej khib koj, koj pheej khib kuv. How is this going to promote anything except chaos and internal conflicts, bickering, and fighting. Nej sawv daws yeej paub zoo lawm; ie. Hmoob lub Peb Caug -- within a single city, there are and can be up to 2-3 New Years celebration, like in Fresno and the Twin Cities. Qhov nod yog qhov peb haiv Hmoob yuam kev LOJ tshaj plaws, ces thiab tsis muaj hnub los sis kev vam meej rau peb suab. We, the Hmong, have too many wanna-be leaders, interest groups, visionaries, and nowadays even woman activists (feminism) - ces peb rav qab ua peb tus yeeb ncuab lawm xwb.
Hais txog kev tshawb fawb, qhov twg los zoo tag nrho: culture, history, folklore, arts etc.. Qhov "problem" kuv pom, is that again, peb cov "scholars/professors" nod tsis sib koom tes - nyias qhuas nyias yog tus "expert" lawm xwb. And more times than not, they are only regurgitating previous scholars' works, research, and publication. See the problem. Tsis muaj ib tug uas yog "original works" lid --- only reproduction.
Hais txog tej nod mad hais tsis txawj tag vim niaj hnub nod, peb haiv Hmoob, nyias NTSE nyias dhau heev lid lawm, even including cov nyob lwm lub ntuj lub teb; Laos, Thailand, and China etc..
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If I remember correctly, the hmong Chinese professor suggested that we must have adopted that culture some where in Southeast Asia. But maybe we are not talking about the same professor. However, if we adopted back in 18th century, as you mentioned, shouldn't our relatives who stayed behind have carried on the culture as well? I'm not talking about the Miao who do not speak our language, and no not all of us moved out of china. Let said that the Chinese oppressed them and they lost the culture, then the Hmong Burma should have the culture as well. I don't know if hmong Burma do it. If the do, then you are correct!
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Qhov koj hais tias Hmoob muaj too many wanna-be thiab Hmoob pheej sib khib sib txeeb meej mom no mas yeej muaj tsheeb li ntawd mad, tiamsis rau kuv mas cov neeg ntawv tsis yog cov neeg uas Los focus txog lub neej lawm yav Tom ntej nas. Cov no feem ntau yog cov laus uas tsis muaj kev kawm siab uas tsuas yog xav tau lub meej mom xwb tiamsis lawv tsis muaj lub hom phiaj thiab txoj kev taug uas yuav muaj peevxwm coj kom tau Hmoob vam meej. Cov yuav los qhia kom Hmoob focus rau lub neej yav tom ntej yuav tsum yog cov tub ntxhais txawj ntse, tiamsis feem ntau ntawm cov tub ntxhais txawj ntse yeej tsis tshua khes txog peb Hmoob li lawm thiab. Tsis tas li xwb, lawv tseem tsis sib koom tes lawv thiab. Koj ua ces kuv ntsia, kuv ua ces koj ntsia xwb. Dhau li lawm, peb ib co uas txhawj ntaub ntaw Los tsis koom tes nrog leej twg li thiab. Qhov no kuv thiaj haistias peb txhob ua li ntawv es peb yuav tsum mus koom tes pab tus neeg muaj lub zeem muag zoo rau peb haiv neeg, sib qhia hais txog kev npaj rau peb lub neej lawm yav pem suab kom ntau tshaj yav tas, thiab qhia txhua tus kom sawvdaws xyaum los ua ib co neeg tshaw kom yus muaj haiv. Hos yog peb pheej mus sib cam haistias koj li lus thiaj yog Hmoob li tug, kuv li thiaj yog Hmoob li tug no ces tej no twb ua kev sib cais rau peb lawm. Li ntawv, kuv thiaj haistias yav tas los tseem ceeb tsis npaum yav tom ntej.
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If I remember correctly, the hmong Chinese professor suggested that we must have adopted that culture some where in Southeast Asia. But maybe we are not talking about the same professor. However, if we adopted back in 18th century, as you mentioned, shouldn't our relatives who stayed behind have carried on the culture as well? I'm not talking about the Miao who do not speak our language, and no not all of us moved out of china. Let said that the Chinese oppressed them and they lost the culture, then the Hmong Burma should have the culture as well. I don't know if hmong Burma do it. If the do, then you are correct!
Truthfully, I do not recall the exact century when Hmong adopted "tossing the ball" or exactly where -- whether in China or SE Asia. It has been nearly 10 years since I saw the video or documentation explaining this Hmong New Year Celebration courtship practice. It may very well be, Hmong adopted it in the latter 19th or even early 20th century, and even possibly while in SE Asia. One thing that is certain, Hmong did adopt this from another culture or people. And yes, the Hmong in Burma do toss the ball as well, but not all of them, as several Hmong groups live independently of one another -- each arriving and settling at different times. I am guessing the Hmong on the Burma-Laos border toss the ball while those living further away probably do not. As for the Hmong-Chinese, they were oppressed throughout Chinese history so "ball tossing" is but just one of the practices that was/is likely banned, if they ever practiced it period.
Anyway, not a definitive, but in this video are the Hmoob Qos, who to my knowledge live and are found along the Burma-Laos border. As you can see they do toss the ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqrzNaret0c#noexternalembed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqrzNaret0c#noexternalembed)
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Haiv neeg es pov pob li Hmoob yog Puab Yib. Nplog hu ua THAI DUM. Lawv lub pob muaj 1 txoj hlab ua li tus tw ntev ntev. Lawv tuav tus tw fiav xwb thiab lawv sawv nrug deb deb.
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Speculation is nonsense by all who believe that doing any academic field research is going to get them any closer to the Truth. But I do know these are FACTS: White Hmong can not speak Green Hmong. Their tongue can not roll and produce the resonance needed to project the words. You may have a few who try to understand and study the Green Hmong dialect and words but word structure and dictions are different. It is a FACT that when a Green Hmong marries into a White Hmong family, they tend to drop the Green Hmong dialect and customs. You put 10 Green Hmong in a room with 1 White Hmong and the majority will talk in White Hmong, this is however not the case if you have 10 White Hmongs and 1 Green Hmong. It is also a FACT that White Hmong are more stubborn when it comes to them trying to learn Green Hmong. For them, Green Hmong sounds like a totally different language to them.
So tell me, why is it so hard for White Hmongs to learn, speak and understand Green Hmong, but not the other way around?
This question is not meant to elevate one side or another nor should it be taken to infuriate the other, but an Honest Answer needs an Honest question.
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Speculation is nonsense by all who believe that doing any academic field research is going to get them any closer to the Truth. But I do know these are FACTS: White Hmong can not speak Green Hmong. Their tongue can not roll and produce the resonance needed to project the words. You may have a few who try to understand and study the Green Hmong dialect and words but word structure and dictions are different. It is a FACT that when a Green Hmong marries into a White Hmong family, they tend to drop the Green Hmong dialect and customs. You put 10 Green Hmong in a room with 1 White Hmong and the majority will talk in White Hmong, this is however not the case if you have 10 White Hmongs and 1 Green Hmong. It is also a FACT that White Hmong are more stubborn when it comes to them trying to learn Green Hmong. For them, Green Hmong sounds like a totally different language to them.
So tell me, why is it so hard for White Hmongs to learn, speak and understand Green Hmong, but not the other way around?
This question is not meant to elevate one side or another nor should it be taken to infuriate the other, but an Honest Answer needs an Honest question.
??? ... ;D
Not FACTS whatsoever. They are in FACT, just your personal opinion and general observation - nothing more ... ;)
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chido, why don't you ask any Green Hmong in here and see if they agree with my answer? And then why don't you ask any White Hmong in here and see if they can pick up Green Hmong dialect in an instant like Green Hmongs do to the White dialect? Then ask yourself if what I said is true of you, since you are a White Hmong. Oberservations that are repeated over and over again becomes natural law. I'm not saying that this has amounted to that, but it occurs frequently enough.
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/\ /\ ... ??? ... ;D Not FACTS whatsoever. They are in FACT, just your personal opinion and general observation - nothing more ... ;)
(btw - Repetition, in the human/animal world, is nothing more than a "learning" excercise -- not natural law. A natural law would or is more commonly defined as "natural selection" or more popular known as "survival of the fittest". Knowing either or both dialect, White and/or Green, is definitely not "natural law", as one can have NO knowledge of either and live or survive just as well if not better. A good example is most US-borned Hmong nowadays, as they mainly speak English, and White or Green is alien to them, O0. Ua tsaug.)
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So do you know Green Hmong chido? Obviously, from other threads, you were frothing for no apparent reason...but other then your own.
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/\ /\ ... you are off topic -- way way off, on a very deep and bottomless end.
What does a person -- Green, White, Yellow, Red, Black, Purple, or Pink-polka-dot -- knowing the White or Green dialect, both, or neither have anything to do with the hypothesis of "authenticity", or this discussion topic to be exact ... :idiot2:
It proves nothing except remote awareness, daily consciousness/subconscious excercise and repetition -- the regurgitation of sounds one hears day-in and day-out, weekly, monthly, and yearly.
Also, it is a known fact that if anyone wants to properly or more eloquently learn and master a spoken language, they must live with and among the native speakers. All the schooling in the world can never teach or equate to this "repetitious" learning, speaking, and comprehensive skill/education. (This in essence is your "bias" observation, opinion, and generalization . Had the Green dialect been the more favorable spoken language, we'd all easily know, learn, and articulate it more. Sadly, it is not, as the White dialect seems to be the norm and more favorable - at least for the time being, since SE Asia to our knowledge and/or understanding and acceptance.)
Ua tsaug or if you prefer Ua tsug haab. "Puv haas le nuv rau mej xwb ... O0"
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That was a simple yes or no question. I no longer need to address anything to you as nothing will come out of it.
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/\ /\ ... ;D ... do you understand this TruthAboveKnowledge ... O0
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Look up Hmong Daw DNA, TheWuLine, QuietRIOTVoice, D-M15 DNA, & N3 Tat DNA. Then go to imperialchina. org and read everything about Chiyou, San Miao, Dongyi, and Qiang, This is a start on this discuss.
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I don't study history but I'll say both is and neither is the original, each carries fragmented pieces a few words here and there which mean both are just a sub-or sub sub sub sub dialect of the original dialect.
Did you look up the listed info?? They suggest that White Hmong is the original. White Hmong has more Northern DNA plus endorsement from the other two Hmong groups in China. I understand some would be unhappy with the info but that's the data.
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Now there were others among Hmong who consist of the Yao (co), Lag, Toom, Haiv Thwv Los and Haiv Suav who are the Chinese now. Where have these tribe originated from?
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I would say the origin of those tribe must either be descendant of one forefather or a need of migration from other parts of the world. Can anybody do some research to when the last great migration happened back in the b.c.?
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I'm white hmong, but i don't have an issue saying it's definitely green hmong because green hmong keeps more phonetic features that are closer to the original language. Features like "DLAB TSIS" instead of "DAB TSIS", for example, are much more archaic.
O yea, there is no issue about the original or proto hmong language cause it's already been reconstructed by a number of scholars, including a lady in the US named Martha Ratliff.
Here's a small sample of some proto hmong words: http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/solnit1996evidence.pdf (http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/solnit1996evidence.pdf)
Notice that even in this small sample, there are a lot of words with x"L" and x"R" consonant clusters. If you sound out many of the proto hmong words, you'll see that they phonetically are close to how the "R" sound stands out in thai, lao, khmer and viet languages. It's no coincidence and proto chinese is the same way; but that's a whole topic in itself. For now, just check out this video on proto chinese pronunciation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0#)
BTW, even though i acknowledge green hmong is more archaic, doesn't mean it sounds better. IMO, white hmong is the best sounding of all the hmong or miao languages. I've heard most of the major ones and because they retain more archaic features, they sound pretty yucky.
Take this video for example. The singers sound like they have a speech impediment; either that or they have abnormally lazy and flat tongues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhHURTdqcBc#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhHURTdqcBc#ws)
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I'm white hmong, but i don't have an issue saying it's definitely green hmong because green hmong keeps more phonetic features that are closer to the original language. Features like "DLAB TSIS" instead of "DAB TSIS", for example, are much more archaic.
O yea, there is no issue about the original or proto hmong language cause it's already been reconstructed by a number of scholars, including a lady in the US named Martha Ratliff.
Here's a small sample of some proto hmong words: http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/solnit1996evidence.pdf (http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/solnit1996evidence.pdf)
Notice that even in this small sample, there are a lot of words with x"L" and x"R" consonant clusters. If you sound out many of the proto hmong words, you'll see that they phonetically are close to how the "R" sound stands out in thai, lao, khmer and viet languages. It's no coincidence and proto chinese is the same way; but that's a whole topic in itself. For now, just check out this video on proto chinese pronunciation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0#)
BTW, even though i acknowledge green hmong is more archaic, doesn't mean it sounds better. IMO, white hmong is the best sounding of all the hmong or miao languages. I've heard most of the major ones and because they retain more archaic features, they sound pretty yucky.
Take this video for example. The singers sound like they have a speech impediment; either that or they have abnormally lazy and flat tongues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhHURTdqcBc#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhHURTdqcBc#ws)
lol the second video seems like it's all clustered and made up is it really a language or am I really just listening to people making up words?
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I'm white hmong, but i don't have an issue saying it's definitely green hmong because green hmong keeps more phonetic features that are closer to the original language. Features like "DLAB TSIS" instead of "DAB TSIS", for example, are much more archaic.
O yea, there is no issue about the original or proto hmong language cause it's already been reconstructed by a number of scholars, including a lady in the US named Martha Ratliff.
Here's a small sample of some proto hmong words: http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/solnit1996evidence.pdf (http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/solnit1996evidence.pdf)
Notice that even in this small sample, there are a lot of words with x"L" and x"R" consonant clusters. If you sound out many of the proto hmong words, you'll see that they phonetically are close to how the "R" sound stands out in thai, lao, khmer and viet languages. It's no coincidence and proto chinese is the same way; but that's a whole topic in itself. For now, just check out this video on proto chinese pronunciation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0#)
BTW, even though i acknowledge green hmong is more archaic, doesn't mean it sounds better. IMO, white hmong is the best sounding of all the hmong or miao languages. I've heard most of the major ones and because they retain more archaic features, they sound pretty yucky.
Take this video for example. The singers sound like they have a speech impediment; either that or they have abnormally lazy and flat tongues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhHURTdqcBc#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhHURTdqcBc#ws)
And i would disagree because you think about it saying dab tsi is actually harder for the Han or Chinese to say so when the Miao (Hmong) cook mixed with the Han back then they grew up speaking differently leaving a whole different language and why are White Hmong able to maintain their language it's because they avoid being submitted to the Han CAN YOU GUYS NOT SEE THAT???
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And i would disagree because you think about it saying dab tsi is actually harder for the Han or Chinese to say so when the Miao (Hmong) cook mixed with the Han back then they grew up speaking differently leaving a whole different language and why are White Hmong able to maintain their language it's because they avoid being submitted to the Han CAN YOU GUYS NOT SEE THAT???
Well, that would make sense if the original language was proved to be devoid of those features. But looking at just a few reconstructed words from the link, you can see it's not the case.
You brought up the hans. Did you listen to the original reconstructed language of the hans? It wasn't hard for them to say x"L" and x"R" words. In fact, in the video, they are a strong feature of old chinese.
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I just wanted to join the discussion. I've read the posts about everyone's theories about which language came first and what not. It's an interesting topic, but given the information, I don't see a conclusion. A lot of this is speculation. Whatever the case, I did see some genetic information that may be very useful in determining our ancestral lineage. In it's simplest form, the genetic information says that we are Chinese. The Hmong, Miao, Han, etc... We are just subtypes of each other. Not a big surprise given the similarities in our culture, langues, and so on. However, this scientific information begs a new question? Do we continue to perpetuate our divergence, or do we claim that we are Chinese?
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I just wanted to join the discussion. I've read the posts about everyone's theories about which language came first and what not. It's an interesting topic, but given the information, I don't see a conclusion. A lot of this is speculation. Whatever the case, I did see some genetic information that may be very useful in determining our ancestral lineage. In it's simplest form, the genetic information says that we are Chinese. The Hmong, Miao, Han, etc... We are just subtypes of each other. Not a big surprise given the similarities in our culture, langues, and so on. However, this scientific information begs a new question? Do we continue to perpetuate our divergence, or do we claim that we are Chinese?
??? ... :(
Care to cite your "genetic data" or publication, as there are several "genetic/DNA" research, researchers, and data statistics that says the complete opposite of your conjecture, unless you are simply saying we all belong to the "genome" homo-sapiens erectus.
As for the White VS Green debacle, language-wise, extrapolating from genetic data, has more or less shed/shown some very interesting results about this too. (All this data -- genetic stats -- are within this thread or a similar thread, here, if I am not mistaken.)
I concur to a large extent, the absolute truth is unknown or cannot be proven unequivocally, but ignoring all the scientific research and statistics is fool-hearty, unless one is already bias one way or another.
Ua tsaug ... :)
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There are several "genetic/DNA" research, researchers, and data statistics that says the complete opposite of your conjecture, unless you are simply saying we all belong to the "genome" homo-sapiens erectus.
I have yet to see any genetic evidence to suggest that Hmong people are distinct from the Chinese. To date, there is no evidence anywhere in the world that can clearly quantify what makes a person qualify as a different ethnic group. There is no one gene that says I am Hmong and you are Chinese. If there is, please forward this information if you have it available. In addition, your statement leads me right into my next thought. We are all Homo-sapiens; we are all alike. Our main differences are the cultures, the languages, and everything man-made, NOT our genetics. Our race and ethnicity exist due to our own wish to separate ourselves from one another. It's funny how people are using genetic evidence to find their origins. I only hope that these people will not be disappointed to find out that we are more alike than we are different. The answer to being Hmong is not in our genes.
As far as language and genetics goes... I have read the articles on this thread, and none of them are able to use genetics to solve which language came first. The articles only demonstrate the divergence of the Miao from North to South and to other areas of the world. I feel that too many people are misinterpretin g scientific evidence and extrapolating information that does not exist.
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luckyvang,
It is clear you have done very little to no research, and is purely just speculating -- making open-ended conjectures.
Here is a start ... so you can at least try to sound somewhat informed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpC1P6me5Ko# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpC1P6me5Ko#)
Ua tsaug ... :)
(Yeah, you are going to claim that within this video, it says Hans, Hmong/Miao, Tibetans etc. share a common ancestry/gene etc., like "duh". But research "further" and once and/or provided you understand all the "genetic jargon" and you'll see all their differences etc..)
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Chidorixox - after watching this simplistic video, it's hard for me comprehend how people would be so easily accepting of things they see on the internet without understanding genetics. Just one last question, if you consider yourself Hmong and lack this haplotype, does that make you not Hmong? Genetics is a strong tool, but it will be very dangerous to those who use it incorrectly.
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This is the original Hmong language:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYXTZh8CW4E# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYXTZh8CW4E#)
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Truthfully, I do not recall the exact century when Hmong adopted "tossing the ball" or exactly where -- whether in China or SE Asia. It has been nearly 10 years since I saw the video or documentation explaining this Hmong New Year Celebration courtship practice. It may very well be, Hmong adopted it in the latter 19th or even early 20th century, and even possibly while in SE Asia. One thing that is certain, Hmong did adopt this from another culture or people. And yes, the Hmong in Burma do toss the ball as well, but not all of them, as several Hmong groups live independently of one another -- each arriving and settling at different times. I am guessing the Hmong on the Burma-Laos border toss the ball while those living further away probably do not. As for the Hmong-Chinese, they were oppressed throughout Chinese history so "ball tossing" is but just one of the practices that was/is likely banned, if they ever practiced it period.
Anyway, not a definitive, but in this video are the Hmoob Qos, who to my knowledge live and are found along the Burma-Laos border. As you can see they do toss the ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqrzNaret0c#noexternalembed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqrzNaret0c#noexternalembed)
Most likely ball tossing was adopted while the Hmong people were still in China. The Zhuang ethnic group of southern China also toss balls at their festivals, and like our Hmong people it is a way for Zhuang youths to court the opposite sex.
http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/142Kaleidoscope3544.html (http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/142Kaleidoscope3544.html)
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I don't know. :)
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Its green
If you listen to chinese hmong
Its really green mix with mandarin