PebHmong Discussion Forum
General Category => Hmong Culture & History => Topic started by: Missterious on September 13, 2014, 09:09:04 AM
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I've heard some people who are green but they speak green like they are white. And then ive heard greens that speak with a really pronounced accent.
For example, some say "tag" but aren't they supposed to sound like "taag"
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"Ignorance is bliss."
Short answer: Greens wanna-be White. (Kind of like US-Hmong wanna be "ghetto", or whitewashed. Same logic.)
(Truthfully, the Greens will adamantly deny this and make any/all sorts of allegations/accusations. It is their right -- or Green pride. Plus, this is not something NEW, as it has already been heavily discussed, debated, contested, and YES, even intellectually researched/amended without much of any kind of compromise, or overall neutrality/agreement, over several decades now.)
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I'm Hmong green. Now what is surprising to me is, not too long ago, I heard the word, "Txwv" spoken in Green. For example, "Kuv nam hab txwv moog ua teb" instead of "Kuv nam hab txiv moog ua teb".
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I'm Hmong green. Now what is surprising to me is, not too long ago, I heard the word, "Txwv" spoken in Green. For example, "Kuv nam hab txwv moog ua teb" instead of "Kuv nam hab txiv moog ua teb".
You mean you never knew that txwv was green for txiv? The thing is not only is it txwv but it has a very pronounced accent almost chinese like and using the throat to say it.
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You mean you never knew that txwv was green for txiv? The thing is not only is it txwv but it has a very pronounced accent almost chinese like and using the throat to say it.
Unfortunately yes. I've never knew that until I asked my parents. "Txwv" does sound chinese and it was very interesting for me to know this. Growing up, I was in a cultural shock and became more Americanize. I admit, I lost some of my Hmong culture and language through my young years. Now for 7+ yrs, I am gradually gaining them back by reading, speaking in Hmong green and white, and asking more questions about Hmong from elders, etc. The more I learn about Hmong, the more I respect it. There are some things I do not agree of our cultural practices and etc, but it is a history that defined us. For sure I would take the "good" pieces and pass it to my future children and make them learn Green and White, but for sure, I want them to know they are Green Hmong (if I marry a green man lol). If not, at least for them to know they have 50% of green in them.
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I'm Hmong green. Now what is surprising to me is, not too long ago, I heard the word, "Txwv" spoken in Green. For example, "Kuv nam hab txwv moog ua teb" instead of "Kuv nam hab txiv moog ua teb".
You mean you never knew that txwv was green for txiv? The thing is not only is it txwv but it has a very pronounced accent almost chinese like and using the throat to say it.
That is correct.
The Green Dialect has their own unique vocabulary for certain words: nam=niam, txwv=txiv, puab=kuv, mej=nej/lawd, quam puj=poj niam(wife), haas=hais, le/led=li/lid etc. for example, from that of the White Dialect. Do not expect US-Green Hmong (especially the kids; those born here) to even be remotely aware of this knowledge (fact). It is not just the Green "accent" alone that makes Green unique/different.
As mentioned, Green has mimicked (copied/integrated) White for decades if not hundreds of years -- having lost their native language (vocabulary) more or less. And arguably it is not just the "spoken language" either that the Green have borrowed (copied/integrated) from the White.
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Dude, don't be spreading false information around like that. You are doing a great disservice to your own Moob community by saying something that is not true. Green dialect speakers have been mimicking/copying white dialect for decades? Really? Where/who did you get this information from?
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I believe the Green dialect is the original dialect.
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I'm Hmong green. Now what is surprising to me is, not too long ago, I heard the word, "Txwv" spoken in Green. For example, "Kuv nam hab txwv moog ua teb" instead of "Kuv nam hab txiv moog ua teb".
I don't know what you just said, but keep talking. ;)
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I don't know what you just said, but keep talking. ;)
Sim Neej Aws...........
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Dude, don't be spreading false information around like that. You are doing a great disservice to your own Moob community by saying something that is not true. Green dialect speakers have been mimicking/copying white dialect for decades? Really? Where/who did you get this information from?
Then who and what race (ethnicity) that speaks/spoke FLUENT/authentic White Hmong (words/language) were the Green Mong mimicking/copying/echoing then eh -- for decades if not hundreds of years? The Chinese? The Vietnamese? The Burmese? The Laotians? The Thais? Oh yeah, definitely the Americans (Brits, French, Italians, Spaniards etc.). Right. Right. Epic fail ... hehehe.
FACT: niam, txiv, koj, peb, kuv, etc. ARE all White Hmong words -- NOT Green Mong originally, or innately/inherently -- which the Green Mong have mimicked, copied, echoed, and used for 10-100+ years. But believe whatever you want.
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I believe the Green dialect is the original dialect.
On the surface (mere observation) alone, it would seem that is a plausible hypothesis, but sound global awareness would argue otherwise. As a matter of fact, Western and Eastern scholars (researchers; Hmong and non-Hmong) have claimed differently. That is, the Green dialect IS NOT the original language of the Hmong/Mong (Miao=Hmong-Chinese).
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You are wrong. I don't know where you got your information, but it is not correct. You have not cited your sources. Global researchers, my ass. You and yourself does not constitute a global opinion.
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You are wrong. I don't know where you got your information, but it is not correct. You have not cited your sources. Global researchers, my ass. You and yourself does not constitute a global opinion.
Well, since I am wrong about my (this) "FACT" (theory/argument) -- that the Green dialect/language IS NOT the original language of the Hmong/Mong (Miao=Hmong-Chinese) -- per your ignorance; which any sound Hmong academic, or non-Hmong, can easily cite/research, why don't you CITE yours that claims, or shows and proves, that the "Green dialect is the original language", if that is truly your belief. (To my knowledge, there is NO (zero) work, study, research, or any creditable scholar(s)/person even remotely alluding to this hypothesis whatsoever except Green Mong hearsay -- that is Green pride period, nothing more.)
One thing that is sure (or can be scientifically/empirically proven), is that Green Mong; the language and the people are not, and IS NOT anything remotely genuine, that is the ORIGINAL, or ancestral bloodline of the Hmong/Mong/Hmong-Chinese. The scientific/empirical data (facts) actually (arguably) says the complete opposite. Yes, this/these published academics can be cited/researched, of and within Western and Eastern scholars/researchers -- Hmong and non-Hmong alike.
But since you asked, I'll entertain the inquiry and name one of many known scholars/researchers who have argued/claimed that the "Green Hmong -- the language and its people" ARE NOT the original/authentic Hmong/Mong/Hmong-Chinese. It is that Hmong-Aussie guy, for starters. (Surely you must know this Aussie Hmong guy?) As for a non-Hmong, N. Tapp comes to mind, for starters. (Now go do your diligence, at researching these well-known scholarships, and learn (universal) FACT from (Green) fiction. Ua tsaug.)
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You are wrong. I don't know where you got your information, but it is not correct. You have not cited your sources. Global researchers, my ass. You and yourself does not constitute a global opinion.
Don't hold your breath. If you have time, visit the "Are Hmong ways of marrying too complicated?" thread in the marriage forum and you'll see that "Ruam" Chlorox like to beat his chest and act like a know it all but he can't back up any of his stupid ignorant epic fail claims. ;D
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Oh, one more thing. When you produced valid evidence to prove "Ruam" Chlorox wrong, he'll label it, "nonsense". What a loser that "Ruam" Chlorox is. ;D
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Well, since I am wrong about my (this) "FACT" (theory/argument) -- that the Green dialect/language IS NOT the original language of the Hmong/Mong (Miao=Hmong-Chinese) -- per your ignorance; which any sound Hmong academic, or non-Hmong, can easily cite/research, why don't you CITE yours that claims, or shows and proves, that the "Green dialect is the original language", if that is truly your belief. (To my knowledge, there is NO (zero) work, study, research, or any creditable scholar(s)/person even remotely alluding to this hypothesis whatsoever except Green Mong hearsay -- that is Green pride period, nothing more.)
One thing that is sure (or can be scientifically/empirically proven), is that Green Mong; the language and the people are not, and IS NOT anything remotely genuine, that is the ORIGINAL, or ancestral bloodline of the Hmong/Mong/Hmong-Chinese. The scientific/empirical data (facts) actually (arguably) says the complete opposite. Yes, this/these published academics can be cited/researched, of and within Western and Eastern scholars/researchers -- Hmong and non-Hmong alike.
But since you asked, I'll entertain the inquiry and name one of many known scholars/researchers who have argued/claimed that the "Green Hmong -- the language and its people" ARE NOT the original/authentic Hmong/Mong/Hmong-Chinese. It is that Hmong-Aussie guy, for starters. (Surely you must know this Aussie Hmong guy?) As for a non-Hmong, N. Tapp comes to mind, for starters. (Now go do your diligence, at researching these well-known scholarships, and learn (universal) FACT from (Green) fiction. Ua tsaug.)
"nonsense" ;D
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No one speaks the "genuine" accent/language. Not even the indigenous rain forest tribes, cut off from the rest of the world, retains the original first dialect and/or accent of their people. Not Japan, a country that is the most homogenous in modern human history, has retained their original dialect/accent. Any human being on the face of earth, right now, if they were to travel 500 years into the past, at the exact spot they are standing, everyone from that -500 year era would NOT understand 95% of your speech.
How can you claim that the Hmong (white) dialect that you hear today on the streets is somehow identical to the original dialect and is the original dialect? You do not even sound like a Lao-Hmong accent. A Lao-Hmong does not sound like a southern China-Hmong. A southern China-Hmong does not sound like his great-great-grandparents.
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"nonsense" ;D
"perfectly legal", says the arguably Middle School equivalent trained ranter, who Google/Yahoo/internet-search "QUOTES" random rhetoric as "back up" to support his/her overall ignorance -- HAHA! (See how ridiculous that "nonsense" is.)
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"perfectly legal", says the arguably Middle School equivalent trained ranter, who Google/Yahoo/internet-search "QUOTES" random rhetoric as "back up" to support his/her overall ignorance -- HAHA! (See how ridiculous that "nonsense" is.)
"nonsense" ;D
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No one speaks the "genuine" accent/language. Not even the indigenous rain forest tribes, cut off from the rest of the world, retains the original first dialect and/or accent of their people. Not Japan, a country that is the most homogenous in modern human history, has retained their original dialect/accent. Any human being on the face of earth, right now, if they were to travel 500 years into the past, at the exact spot they are standing, everyone from that -500 year era would NOT understand 95% of your speech.
How can you claim that the Hmong (white) dialect that you hear today on the streets is somehow identical to the original dialect and is the original dialect? You do not even sound like a Lao-Hmong accent. A Lao-Hmong does not sound like a southern China-Hmong. A southern China-Hmong does not sound like his great-great-grandparents.
Not to intentionally bring up "old skeletons", but if memory is correct, you too, were one of the adamant Green(s) who proclaimed (and had strong opinion) that the Green Mong (language and people) were the original (ancestral bloodline) of the Hmong/Mong/Hmong-Chinese. (As a matter of fact, that "nearsighted claim" of yours, among others (Green) can be found within PH -- within one of the older thread/subject matter regarding this said "topic/discussion".)
So what has transpired since for you to make this "new" bold generalization/revelation? *hehehe* (Perhaps some new-found sound research/scholarships/realization about univerals FACT versus (Green) fiction eh?)
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Dude, stop taking crack before coming in here to debate. Then you might make some sense. The argument is not whether Moob leeg is the original dialect or not. The argument I am proposing is against the fact that you mentioned that moob leeg has been copying/mimicking the white dialect for decades. This is NOT true. You seem delusional/biased on this subject matter. I asked for one single source and what happens? You go rambling as though you are on a meth trip......
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Dude, stop taking crack before coming in here to debate. Then you might make some sense. The argument is not whether Moob leeg is the original dialect or not. The argument I am proposing is against the fact that you mentioned that moob leeg has been copying/mimicking the white dialect for decades. This is NOT true. You seem delusional/biased on this subject matter. I asked for one single source and what happens? You go rambling as though you are on a meth trip......
*giggles* This is a good "joke". I like it, so I will play along ... kekeke.
Oh yeah, you wanted a "single source" regarding the fact that Moob Leeg/Ntsuab has been copying/mimicking the White Dialect, of the White Hmong, for decades, if not hundreds of years till present day USA and the West right?
Foremost, the thread/subject author, Missterious, is living proof of this FACT. Firsthand eye witness account(s) will trump any book, research paper, or second-hand scholarship anyday, anywhere, and at any given time known to man. Ok, Missterious is full of crap -- lying let's say. Well then, why don't you, or any inquiring mind (ignorance) who wants to know factually just go out into the Hmong community anywhere throughout the world where Green and White Hmong happen to live together, or within close proximity of one another. Now, ask yourself, "From whom and how are the Green Mong learning (mimicking/copying) the White Dialect from, as it is not native to their Green language?"
Not good enough eh? Ok, let us do a "simple scientific deduction" to see what it says, or concludes.
Did the Green Mong live among the Chinese 10-100-1000 years ago? Yes.
So that means the Green Mong learned the White Hmong dialect from the Chinese? Absolutely not. No. The Chinese natively speak Mandarin/Cantonese -- NOT White Hmong.
Did the Green Mong live among the Viets, Lao, Burmese, Thai 10-100-1000 years ago? Yes.
So that means the Green Mong learned the White Hmong dialect from the Viets, Lao, Burmese, or Thai? Absolutely not. No. The Viets, Lao, Burmese, and Thai natively speak Viet, Lao, Burmese, and Thai respectively -- NOT White Hmong.
Did the Green Mong live among Americans (Europeans, Latinos, Africans etc.) within the last 10-100 years ago in the Western hemisphere? Yes, as resettled immigrants.
So that means the Green Mong learned the White Hmong dialect from the Americans? Absolutely not. No. The Americans natively speak their own language: English, French, Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, and African dialects native to them etc., and respectively -- NOT White Hmong.
So if the Green Mong did not learn (mimick/copy) the White Hmong dialect from the Chinese, Viets, Lao, Thai, and Americans of whom they live intimately with/among for 10-100-1000 years, then how did the Green Mong come to learn (mimick/copy) a native language uniquely spoken by the White Hmong. Hmmm, how is this even possible? Wait!
Did the Green Mong live with/among the White Hmong throughout Asia and the West for over 10-100-1000 years? Absolutely. Yes.
So is it possible that the Green Mong learned (mimicked/copied) the native White Hmong dialect from the White Hmong? Absolutely. Yes, the Green Mong learned (mimicked/copied) the native White Hmong dialect from the White Hmong. No way! YES WAY! The ONLY WAY. Practical common sense which can be scientifically (deductively) proven. Oh, we just did that ... kekeke. (Denial and ignorance is bliss.)
Deductive conclusion (fact): The very fact that the Green Mong have/has and continues to live with/among the White Hmong for over decades, hundreds, to thousands of years throughout the world globally, the Green Mong must have first heard and then learned (mimicked/copied) the White Hmong dialect, which is solely native to the White Hmong and no other race or ethnicity, including the Green Mong themselves; thus over time the Green Mong became fluent in the White dialect in terms of tone, vocabulary, and overall speech -- pretty much like how we and other foreigners to the USA learn (mimicked/copied) the English language. (Wow, how is this even possible? The truth SPEAKS for itself. Get it -- SPEAKS! *giggles*)
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... This is NOT true. You seem delusional/biased on this subject matter. I asked for one single source and what happens? ...
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NOT true ... "one single source and what happens?" (It found me, and I wasn't even looking for it, or anything of its kind ... kekeke.)
Note some of the "perfect White Hmong dialect", spoken by Hmong/Mong elders in China -- today, of the 21st century. Imagine that? How is it even possible? *lol*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6SNL3fj4es&list=UU1SsmGY-COGoFeLR4kwSDaw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6SNL3fj4es&list=UU1SsmGY-COGoFeLR4kwSDaw)
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joot (plus all other),
Friends that care -- shares. Anyway, enjoy ... kekeke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QOjYLOlKL8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QOjYLOlKL8)
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I've heard some people who are green but they speak green like they are white. And then ive heard greens that speak with a really pronounced accent.
For example, some say "tag" but aren't they supposed to sound like "taag"
Ua tuab zoo noog kuv tsua pav ov...
Tag has 2 totally different meaning (one in Hmoob Dawb, another in Moob Leeg/Ntsuab).
Hmoob dawb, tag as in "pawv tag!" = all gone!, or "zoo tas tas!" = totally good! *note: some Hmoob dawb use tas instead of tag as in "zoo tas tas!" = totally good! Which in Moob leeg is taag
Moob leeg, tag literally means serious/honest (it has nothing to do with all/total). Which in Hmoob dawb is tiag
A Moob leeg said "Koj cov laj nuav rau miv ntsiv qua lom yawm (hov txob) ntxiv taag rua lawm mas qaab tag tag nawb."..." Hmoob dawb reply: "Puas tiag ma? ... Tag mas"
Hmoob dawb would say: "Koj cov laj no rau me ntsis kua txob (hov txob) ntxiv tas rau lawm mas qab tiag tiag nawb." Moob leeg reply: Puas tag ma... tiag mas"
Notice: majority of the time Hmoob dawb use "tas" instead of "tag" for the meaning of finished/total
Here's a clip of a few different words Hmoob dawb & Moob leeg nay misunderstand each other
http://youtu.be/J_01KiugrKo (http://youtu.be/J_01KiugrKo)
Pay close attention to luv, cem, aub, ncu mov, yaws choj, lug from 3:50 onward
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FACT: niam, txiv, koj, peb, kuv, etc. ARE all White Hmong words -- NOT Green Mong originally, or innately/inherently -- which the Green Mong have mimicked, copied, echoed, and used for 10-100+ years. But believe whatever you want.
You're so full of yourself... Did you somehow went back in time and record the original Hmong green and Hmong white language? No one knows the original Hmong language, let alone Green vs White. Don't make a fool of yourself...
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You're so full of yourself... Did you somehow went back in time and record the original Hmong green and Hmong white language? No one knows the original Hmong language, let alone Green vs White. Don't make a fool of yourself...
... kekeke ... :2funny: ... ::)
The biggest fools (likely the majority) found within the Hmong/Mong community; even nowadays -- possibly even throughout the Hmong/Mong-verse -- are in fact ... kekeke ... you guessed it ... KEKEKE ... >:D
(They can even cited (past and present), but let us pretend to be ignorant of the facts to keep the Hmong(White)/Mong(Green) peace ... kekeke ... KEKEKE ... 8))
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I do not know what you mean by accent. I speak hmong green fluently. I do not add white dialect when I speak because growing up, green dialect is all I know until high school.
I do not believe I have a green accent when I speak in green. I say taag instead of tag. I used the double consonant. Many said I have a green accent but to me I feel like I don't. I speak Hmong just like you hmong durrr. Hahaha.
P.S.
I do not call my daddy txwv. I call him IV even at the age of 29. Nothing wrong with that.
Do you use the word "nyiaj" or "nyaj" for money? I find my husband using the word nyiaj. There are a few other words that they use that is the white dialect. They are the Vang group that settled with your Lee group back in Laos known as wear black dress/skirt in Saraboury. I don't know if it's just the Vang and Xiong group wearing black dress/skirt that speak that way or the Lee too.
I call my dad iv and my siblings too. My husband does not call his dad iv but txiv along with all his brothers. His sisters or my sil's everyone of them call dad iv. My mom when she speak to me and address my dad it will be koj txiv....
As I grow older I think the word txiv sound more appropriate while if is kinda immature. I can only called my fil txiv but my dad will always be iv. It's not easy to go from iv to txiv.
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Green must be more talented if they can mimic white... ;)
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Average Tou makes the most sense to me.
Ok other wordings ive heard are :::
Nrog= ntsug or nrug
Rov qab=tsov qaab or rov qaab
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Green must be more talented if they can mimic white... ;)
... kekeke ... ;D
True, exactly like how parrots (parakeets), dogs/cats, and apes/chimps are trained to mimic people; words, tricks, and sign language ... KEKEKE ... >:D
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... kekeke ... ;D
True, exactly like how parrots (parakeets), dogs/cats, and apes/chimps are trained to mimic people; words, tricks, and sign language ... KEKEKE ... >:D
LOL.
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I've heard some people who are green but they speak green like they are white. And then ive heard greens that speak with a really pronounced accent.
For example, some say "tag" but aren't they supposed to sound like "taag"
What you may perceive as having an accent is not. There is a dialect difference - if we can call it that. Coincidentally the white dialect branching off from Mong Leeg happened around our Mong exodus time. There is some folk lore of two distinct tribes of language differences. Hence for the correlation of same word but different meaning.
Mong Leeg is more of a poetic speech prose. The subtleties of the inflection on words goes beyond what children are capable of linguistically . If you have a grandma or great grandma who is a vocal librarian...th ey will tell you that they merely change over to the white dialect. No one really knows the original reason behind it. However it does correlates to the White dialect's inability to speak Mong Leeg. Whereas a Mong Leeg dialect is able to easily mimic the white dialect. Which allows for the rapid ascension of the white dialect within the last few generations to come into existence.
So in a way, most Hmong white are just converted Mong Leeg. Besides...whit e dialect can be spoken about three times faster. Helps to cuss out someone or comically dub over movies. Those of us who fails Mong Leeg fluency being American white washed can still mimic white dialect. I wonder if that's also a coincidence.
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What you may perceive as having an accent is not. There is a dialect difference - if we can call it that. Coincidentally the white dialect branching off from Mong Leeg happened around our Mong exodus time. There is some folk lore of two distinct tribes of language differences. Hence for the correlation of same word but different meaning.
Mong Leeg is more of a poetic speech prose. The subtleties of the inflection on words goes beyond what children are capable of linguistically . If you have a grandma or great grandma who is a vocal librarian...th ey will tell you that they merely change over to the white dialect. No one really knows the original reason behind it. However it does correlates to the White dialect's inability to speak Mong Leeg. Whereas a Mong Leeg dialect is able to easily mimic the white dialect. Which allows for the rapid ascension of the white dialect within the last few generations to come into existence.
So in a way, most Hmong white are just converted Mong Leeg. Besides...whit e dialect can be spoken about three times faster. Helps to cuss out someone or comically dub over movies. Those of us who fails Mong Leeg fluency being American white washed can still mimic white dialect. I wonder if that's also a coincidence.
... kekeke ... :2funny: ... KEKEKE ... ::)
Ur baseless rhetoric of how spoken White evolved from Green and that White is easier than Green plus that children or adults, White perse, cannot master Green is utterly ludicrous.
With a few historical data, facts, and cited sources that will reprise your futal Green hubris, you will likely get all twisted into fetal rampage like many before you with whom I have had this discussion (re-education) with ... kekeke ... >:D
( So let us not go there and just say, "Your Green conjectures are all fairy tales ... 8) )
HINT: For example, Mong Leng as its own subset, or group, never existed cept to distance (desensitize) it's inherent Green Mong taboo arguably starting in the USA ... O0
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... kekeke ... :2funny: ... KEKEKE ... ::)
Ur baseless rhetoric of how spoken White evolved from Green and that White is easier than Green plus that children or adults, White perse, cannot master Green is utterly ludicrous.
With a few historical data, facts, and cited sources that will reprise your futal Green hubris, you will likely get all twisted into fetal rampage like many before you with whom I have had this discussion (re-education) with ... kekeke ... >:D
( So let us not go there and just say, "Your Green conjectures are all fairy tales ... 8) )
HINT: For example, Mong Leng as its own subset, or group, never existed cept to distance (desensitize) it's inherent Green Mong taboo arguably starting in the USA ... O0
Oh you can still say tiger bite three times faster and more comical. :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
No matter how well you master it, a mimic is still a mimic at the end of the day. >:D
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master mimic
Earthworm = Air Worms
Hole in shirt = Tiger bite
Garlic = Egg
:2funny: :2funny: :2funny: